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15 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Given the military disparity that exists in the Middle East, calls for the elimination of the state as Israel mean about as much as Death to America.

 

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You really think these groups are an existential threat to the state of Israel? I don't.

This take is one of the most disingenuous and tone-deaf takes on this board, and that says something.

"Look....they simply don't have the resources to kill ALL the jews.  Maybe just 5% of them.  So that's not really a threat, and I don't see why Israel and jewish people have their panties in a bunch."

For fuck's sake.  If a group has pledged to exterminate your group, and has a demonstrated track record (right up to a week and a half ago) of slaughtering members of your group in real-deal numbers, then you and the members of your group live in constant terror that you are going to be next.  That's why they call it terrorism.

"Hey Brisket, I'm going to shoot dead your whole family, ending your family line."

"Now Brisket, don't overreact.  He only has one bullet.  He simply CAN'T shoot your WHOLE family.  So, chill out."

Meanwhile, Brisket stands there with his family wondering which one of us he uses his bullet on.  Me?  My wife?  My daughter?  My son?  And you expect me to take the fact that three of us will still be alive at the end of the day as some fucking consolation? 

Fuck.

That.

Shit.

"Sure, they SAY they want to genocide all the jews, but as a practical matter, they can only kill them a thousand or so at a time" is not the fucking rebuttal you think it is. It's fucking disgusting and embarrassing to even utter, but there you go with it.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

 

This take is one of the most disingenuous and tone-deaf takes on this board, and that says something.

"Look....they simply don't have the resources to kill ALL the jews.  Maybe just 5% of them.  So that's not really a threat, and I don't see why Israel and jewish people have their panties in a bunch."

For fuck's sake.  If a group has pledged to exterminate your group, and has a demonstrated track record (right up to a week and a half ago) of slaughtering members of your group in real-deal numbers, then you and the members of your group live in constant terror that you are going to be next.  That's why they call it terrorism.

"Hey Brisket, I'm going to shoot dead your whole family, ending your family line."

"Now Brisket, don't overreact.  He only has one bullet.  He simply CAN'T shoot your WHOLE family.  So, chill out."

Meanwhile, Brisket stands there with his family wondering which one of us he uses his bullet on.  Me?  My wife?  My daughter?  My son?  And you expect me to take the fact that three of us will still be alive at the end of the day as some fucking consolation? 

Fuck.

That.

Shit.

"Sure, they SAY they want to genocide all the jews, but as a practical matter, they can only kill them a thousand or so at a time" is not the fucking rebuttal you think it is. It's fucking disgusting and embarrassing to even utter, but there you go with it.

Let's not slide back into the all Palestinians are Hamas and also terrorists and want the Jews dead merry-go-round again.

However, @David Dennison is not correct here, any terrorist organization that calls for the extermination of any group of people is an existential threat, even if they don't have the ability to carry out the threat.

The flip side is that Israel is, of course, an existential threat to Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank. At least until Netanyahu and his cronies eats some polonium for breakfast or something.

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20 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Biden telling Hamas that they “gotta learn how to shoot straight” is totally fucking awesome and makes me want to have more old-ass presidents. 
 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/10/18/press-gaggle-by-president-biden-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-ramstein-air-base-germany/

 

 

 

In a completely predictable twist, many right wing nutjobs are latching onto this quote as if Biden was giving Hamas a request rather than giving them shit.  I know because one of them is my mother and I'm about to lose my mind.

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To me, Israel's biggest flaw is the following.

In 1948 they were FRESH off the memory of the holocaust, three, four years.  So, yeah, they might have been a little aggro and overly so.  But also perhaps understandably.

Then, of course, they were immediately invaded by essentially all of their neighbors on the premise not only that they had no legal right to exist, but no existential right to exist or even live, even if elsewhere.

And then that shit continued on, sporadically, to the present.

So, Israel from the outset has an understandably "under siege" mentality.  Various events over the last 75 years have tended to support that notion, but ever less so.

In the meantime, Israel has pretty effectively kicked the living shit out of everyone that fucked with them, and built a pretty nice society for themselves, including a fairly awesome military.

All the while, the threats to its existence becoming less and less credible.

But, like the US and other places, fear-mongering politicians have kept that siege mentality going for their own benefit, stoking fear etc.

I get where they came from, but they need to chill the fuck out, in my opinion.

They are an advanced and wealthy society, almost all of their neighbors are not.  They need to start being the "bigger person" in this.

That said, still fuck the jihadist turds.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Maybe we should also read a history book.  In periods when Israel was NOT doing the oppressive shit you presently complain about (and again, I don't disagree with the criticism)......did its Palestinian neighbors grant it security?  Fuck no.

What timeframe was that again?

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4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yeah, I don't agree with that. Power matters. 

Where religious fanaticism is involved, I think that makes the power imbalance a smidgen less,at least. 

But as stated above, the power balance in Israel's favor does matter. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

Well given the military disparity that exists in the Middle East, I would hope so. 

The data pretty clearly supports the conclusion that peace is more popular in Gaza than violence is. They don't deserve to be starved or collectively punished.

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From a purely rational and self-interest perspective, the fact that Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel is all the more reason to destroy them completely and rapidly. You would have to treat an actual existential threat much more seriously and carefully because of the damage they are capable of inflicting on you.

The balance of power has protected Hamas. Israel felt secure and safe, underestimated Hamas’ will and capabilities, and allowed that to cloud their vigilance. It is actually a fairly big humanitarian win that Israel allowed them to exist and govern this long given the asymmetry, very few other nations in a similar situation would tolerate their existence and just invest in Iron Dome. 
 

Hamas is in the in-between of not being strong enough to pose an existential threat but strong enough to kill 1000 plus people on a single day in the most spectacularly violent means imaginable. 

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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

From a purely rational and self-interest perspective, the fact that Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel is all the more reason to destroy them completely and rapidly. You would have to treat an actual existential threat much more seriously and carefully because of the damage they are capable of inflicting on you.

The balance of power has protected Hamas. Israel felt secure and safe, underestimated Hamas’ will and capabilities, and allowed that to cloud their vigilance. It is actually a fairly big humanitarian win that Israel allowed them to exist and govern this long given the asymmetry, very few other nations in a similar situation would tolerate their existence and just invest in Iron Dome. 
 

Hamas is in the in-between of not being strong enough to pose an existential threat but strong enough to kill 1000 plus people on a single day in the most spectacularly violent means imaginable. 

Which is why Israel has every right to try to stop them and eliminate the threat.

That does not mean they should use eliminating the threat of Hamas as a pretext for collective punishment.

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1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

Too be fair in criticizing Israel, it strikes me that Israel is trying to subjugate a people in a modern era where you can’t do that anymore. It’s like  if Dick Butkus tried to play Mike linebacker today. Israel needs to understand you can’t choke a nation out until there is no will or fight left— the world is too flat and cameras too 4k.

You can do it all the time and it is happening quite successfully in other places. You do have to be a fundamentally different type of regime than Israel is to actually pull it off. 

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19 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Let's not slide back into the all Palestinians are Hamas and also terrorists and want the Jews dead merry-go-round again.

However, @David Dennison is not correct here, any terrorist organization that calls for the extermination of any group of people is an existential threat, even if they don't have the ability to carry out the threat.

The flip side is that Israel is, of course, an existential threat to Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank. At least until Netanyahu and his cronies eats some polonium for breakfast or something.

Not backsliding on that first point, and didn't intend to communicate it that way.

And thank you for the second paragraph and the third for that matter.  I felt like I was taking crazy pills.

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yeah, I don't agree with that. Power matters. 

Cool.  It's beyond debate that I can't kill your entire family.  Just one member.  Which one are you okay with me killing?  Since, you know, my limited power to carry through on my threat of complete termination matters.

 

6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

The data pretty clearly supports the conclusion that peace is more popular in Gaza than violence is. They don't deserve to be starved or collectively punished.

I agree with your conclusion.  Israel's current fight is and should be constrained to being just with Hamas.  The complete blockade of Gaza is wrong - even if it was calculated as a military move, it is of limited military utility.  It is mostly a mechanism of collective punishment of an entire population, and that's bullshit.

But the flipside is that yes, Israel gets to fight Hamas. And if Hamas is using civilians as human shields from actual military action, that war crime is on Hamas.

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Wasn't that a time when Israel was preventing Palestinians from returning to their homes and villages?

You mean the ones they left in order to allow for the previous plan to exterminate Israel to proceed?  Those homes and villages?

Come on, man.

Trying to completely black-hat white-hat the matter in the 1948-1967 period is bullshit and you know it.

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1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

The human shield thing seems to happen a lot less frequently than Israel claims it does.

And a lot more frequently than you'd like to acknowledge.  Those noted hard-right fanatics at....Amnesty International agree (examining past conflicts -- the current one is still quite the foggy picture):

Quote

In previous conflicts Amnesty International has documented that Palestinian armed groups have stored munitions in and fired indiscriminate rockets from residential areas in the Gaza Strip in violation of international humanitarian law.

 

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

You mean the ones they left in order to allow for the previous plan to exterminate Israel to proceed?  Those homes and villages?

Come on, man.

Trying to completely black-hat white-hat the matter in the 1948-1967 period is bullshit and you know it.

Put this in the context of the Nakba.

 

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Just now, David Dennison said:

Put this in the context of the Nakba.

 

The context of the Nakba that is one way of characterizing a Palestinian exodus of differing motivations?  You do understand that simply the use of that term is a characterization of the event that is entirely one-sided.

Which is the entire fucking problem here.  Functionally nobody is arguing that the Palestinians haven't eaten some measure of shit sandwich, and that they shouldn't have basic human rights and some outcome that involves sovereignty and self-determination.  But the "Nakba" that you describe is a narrative of nothing but poor Palestinian victims, and wicked jews.  When you damned well know that the act of Palestinians vacating lands was not monolithic and had mixed motivations, including "I'll leave so my Arab brothers can come in and exterminate the jews, then I'll get all my land back and then some."

The conversation will never get any traction as long as it's painted as "no, see, all Palestinians are murderous antisemitic animals and must be caged" or "the Palestinian people are all innocent victims, and should get back everything they had pre-1948."  If you want to stick with white-hat v black-hat narratives, you'll get ongoing conflict.  Which is what we've been doing.  And what we've gotten.  So, by all means, keep pushing that narrative.  It's been super successful.

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4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Functionally nobody is arguing that the Palestinians haven't eaten some measure of shit sandwich, and that they shouldn't have basic human rights and some outcome that involves sovereignty and self-determination.  But the "Nakba" that you describe is a narrative of nothing but poor Palestinian victims, and wicked jews.  When you damned well know that the act of Palestinians vacating lands was not monolithic and had mixed motivations, including "I'll leave so my Arab brothers can come in and exterminate the jews, then I'll get all my land back and then some."

How prevalent was this belief among the 700,000 who were displaced?

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5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

How prevalent was this belief among the 700,000 who were displaced?

No idea.  It's a matter of significant disagreement.  Because there have been dueling narratives from the get-go.  What I know is that overall, there were no clean hands.  There was zionist violence and expulsion, there was Palestinian violence and cooperation with attacking Arab states.  Both things are true.

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21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Being that what we're discussing at present is Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, pre- the Six Day war in 1967.

Seems like someone certainly would benefit from opening a history book and learning about the events between 1948-1966 and the systematic oppression and dehumanization of the Palestinians in Israel. 

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Seems like someone certainly would benefit from opening a history book and learning about the events between 1948-1966 and the systematic oppression and dehumanization of the Palestinians in Israel. 

Sure.  You mean the books rife with dueling narratives?  Or would you recommend that I go to one of the sources that paints the Palestinian and their arab allies as innocent victims in all of this?  Or would you prefer I go to a source that paints them as uniformly bloodthirsty genocidal terrorists who deserved every bit of suffering they got?  I mean, I could read the book about how the Palestinians launched bloody terrorist attack after bloodthirsty terrorist attack against Israeli civilians and jews outside of Israel.  Or I could read the book about how zionist military irregulars murdered and raped Palestinians to drive them out of their villages in 1947-49.  The super fun thing is, both books would be telling true stories.  But neither would be telling the whole story.

I mean, I'm literate.  This isn't the first time I've read anything on this topic (and I'm confident that it won't be the last, as nothing good is going to change in my lifetime).

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5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Seems like someone certainly would benefit from opening a history book and learning about the events between 1948-1966 and the systematic oppression and dehumanization of the Palestinians in Israel. 

Terrorism or no terrorism, the way Israel treats ordinary Palestinians has got to stop.

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So awesome, images and reports of the bombing of the St. Porphyrius church compound in Gaza coming through. This is a place where Palestinian Christians in particular have been seeking refuge. Early reports are that the two story admin building that was housing refugees was flattened. The images and video being shared online are clearly in the church compound, and well, shit looks pretty bad. We'll get to see how this one shakes out. There were reports a week ago or so that were not accurate, so again, will need to let the assessments play out. 

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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure.  You mean the books rife with dueling narratives?  Or would you recommend that I go to one of the sources that paints the Palestinian and their arab allies as innocent victims in all of this?  Or would you prefer I go to a source that paints them as uniformly bloodthirsty genocidal terrorists who deserved every bit of suffering they got?  I mean, I could read the book about how the Palestinians launched bloody terrorist attack after bloodthirsty terrorist attack against Israeli civilians and jews outside of Israel.  Or I could read the book about how zionist military irregulars murdered and raped Palestinians to drive them out of their villages in 1947-49.  The super fun thing is, both books would be telling true stories.  But neither would be telling the whole story.

I mean, I'm literate.  This isn't the first time I've read anything on this topic (and I'm confident that it won't be the last, as nothing good is going to change in my lifetime).

Uh, you're the one that told another poster "Maybe we should also read a history book". So that seems like a weird fucking rant. If you want a book suggestion from me, I would suggest maybe you consider: https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/154090217X/  

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5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So awesome, images and reports of the bombing of the St. Porphyrius church compound in Gaza coming through. This is a place where Palestinian Christians in particular have been seeking refuge. Early reports are that the two story admin building that was housing refugees was flattened. The images and video being shared online are clearly in the church compound, and well, shit looks pretty bad. We'll get to see how this one shakes out. There were reports a week ago or so that were not accurate, so again, will need to let the assessments play out. 

Those were human shields obviously

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1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't necessarily mind the Israel jersey but the hypocrisy really pisses me off. Just another instance of people not so subtle hinting at which group they consider human.

Imagine the shitshow if the organization or MLB told him he can't wear it. They're spineless cowards.

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4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You're Irish.  Nobody is worried about your claims.  We could give the whole kit and caboodle back to you, we'd have it all back before the end of the weekend, and you'd be too drunk to notice.

What, are we not able to stereotype the Irish around here?  I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

I'll have you know that only 4 of my Dad's brothers were/are alcoholics.   So don't sass our good name.  I mean 1 out of 5 is pretty good in baseball....

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5 hours ago, Nivek said:

hey man, I know you are on my side, but fuck you too.  You homo sapiens have cost me a chance of experiencing Neanderthal pussy with your genocide of my people.     Think about that....  now try not to.... see....   

Man...the Italians are fucked. They better be prepared to write some checks. What's the bill for carthage? 

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54 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The conversation will never get any traction as long as it's painted as "no, see, all Palestinians are murderous antisemitic animals and must be caged" or "the Palestinian people are all innocent victims, and should get back everything they had pre-1948."  If you want to stick with white-hat v black-hat narratives, you'll get ongoing conflict.  Which is what we've been doing.  And what we've gotten.  So, by all means, keep pushing that narrative.  It's been super successful.

Quote

 

Pretty much sums up what's going on here.  When people post legitimate discussion points, some people just scroll past and move on to whatever fits their limited perspective and take offense to what wasn't said.   (Not all Palestinians agree with Hamas! Oh thanks for that genius insight!  I didn't think we needed to include such simplistic and obvious facts, but I guess we should include that some wear shoes as well.)

 

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