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SmokeyBear1861

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is an astoundingly uninformed take. 

It's not exactly accurate, but Israel regularly terrorizes and kills members of foreign press, and literally just legislated a major press organization out of the country. Not fascist at all!

Edited by Brian Fantana
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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

They will both fall and Russia will remain far below Israel.  100 percent, that’s how these ranking work and I do have first hand knowledge. 

Russia and Occupied Palestine are pretty close in the rankings in 2023.

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49 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Russia and Occupied Palestine are pretty close in the rankings in 2023.

And? Did you read the country report and why Palestine ended up there in 2023? It’s nearly entirely due to Hamas and WB authorities’ restrictions and media manipulation even as Israel’s actions are mentioned as a contributing factor. There is a methodology to how they put these together. 
 

You said something that is not at all correct and the evidence you are citing doesn’t back you up, just move on. It’s bad for Israel to clamp down in its own right and it doesn’t have to be WoRsE tHaN RuSsIA. 

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5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s bad for Israel to clamp down in its own right and it doesn’t have to be WoRsE tHaN RuSsIA. 

Honestly though how many times has Russia authorized targeted military strikes on the family of journalists?

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Just now, Satchel said:

The only positive that is likely to result from the carnage is Bibi will lose his job.

Not gonna happen.

It's going to get worse.  Much worse.

That's all things do in this timeline: get worse.

Have you not been paying attention?

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Headline: Biden is really angry with all the bombings.

Checks notes: He just approved sale of bombs and planes to Israel.

“Son, I’m really angry that you are smoking weed. Here is a brick of herb and a new bong. Don’t smoke that shit anymore!”

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25 minutes ago, Fastbreak said:

Headline: Biden is really angry with all the bombings.

Checks notes: He just approved sale of bombs and planes to Israel.

“Son, I’m really angry that you are smoking weed. Here is a brick of herb and a new bong. Don’t smoke that shit anymore!”

It's the AIPAC.

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59 minutes ago, Fastbreak said:

Headline: Biden is really angry with all the bombings.

Checks notes: He just approved sale of bombs and planes to Israel.

“Son, I’m really angry that you are smoking weed. Here is a brick of herb and a new bong. Don’t smoke that shit anymore!”

Yeah but in this instance, we're the dad getting angry at our kid smoking weed, asking him where he got it and where did he learn to do it?

KdOnOW.gif

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

The Western world simply outsources its guilt to Palestinians, especially Germany.

If the Israelis succeed in either destroying or displacing the Palestinians then following up by settling the area themselve, it would be akin to the Germans building condos on the sites of concentration camps.

The Dachau Deluxe Duplexes! 

Edited by RomaVicta
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3 hours ago, mdmost said:

Yeah but in this instance, we're the dad getting angry at our kid smoking weed, asking him where he got it and where did he learn to do it?

KdOnOW.gif

Every once in a while there is the perfect situation response and gif. This is one of those times. 

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The fallout continues from the Israeli attack on the World Central Kitchen martyrs in Gaza. Cyprus ships carrying 250 tons on relief rations to Gaza have retreated mid trip because the safety of their workers cannot be guaranteed. Given how Bibi has propped up Hamas for years in order to give himself a convenient foil, it’s not surprising that he’s engaging in ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

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4 minutes ago, Satchel said:

The fallout continues from the Israeli attack on the World Central Kitchen martyrs in Gaza. Cyprus ships carrying 250 tons on relief rations to Gaza have retreated mid trip because the safety of their workers cannot be guaranteed. Given how Bibi has propped up Hamas for years in order to give himself a convenient foil, it’s not surprising that he’s engaging in ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

I know you know this, but it's still worth a reminder that it's been a slow-burn ethnic cleansing campaign for decades. Hamas's actions simply provided a catalyst/excuse to put the process into overdrive.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

What should it be? The west is not booting boots in there. I would go with Jordanian, Turks, North Africans. NATO aligned, but not NATO forces. Who else?

Given the events of the last few days, can we agree on "Not the IDF" as a starting point?

Edited by Anastasis
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9 hours ago, Satchel said:

The fallout continues from the Israeli attack on the World Central Kitchen martyrs in Gaza. Cyprus ships carrying 250 tons on relief rations to Gaza have retreated mid trip because the safety of their workers cannot be guaranteed.

Mission accomplished. 

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I have no idea if it was intentional, but I can see it being so to determine how far they can really go without losing support. No western ally leader can go against Israel and still win elections, especially the presidency of the United States. That's just how it is, unfortunately. Biden has called for a ceasefire without any teeth and that's about as far as he can go without losing tons of votes from the "I stand by Israel" crowd which still has many adherents on the left, primarily "centrist" democrats which are still a huge part of the party. It feels like I saw the story on multiple outlets initially and not much since. It's still the political reality of how things stand. I really wish young progressives would continue their advocacy without saying they won't vote for Biden. I have no doubt that Biden is pretty centrist on Israel, but even if he agreed with the young progressives, he can't push too hard without letting trump take the white house, in which case he'd probably just give Israel nukes to wipe Gaza off the map. 

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38 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I have no idea if it was intentional, but I can see it being so to determine how far they can really go without losing support. No western ally leader can go against Israel and still win elections, especially the presidency of the United States. That's just how it is, unfortunately. Biden has called for a ceasefire without any teeth and that's about as far as he can go without losing tons of votes from the "I stand by Israel" crowd which still has many adherents on the left, primarily "centrist" democrats which are still a huge part of the party. It feels like I saw the story on multiple outlets initially and not much since. It's still the political reality of how things stand. I really wish young progressives would continue their advocacy without saying they won't vote for Biden. I have no doubt that Biden is pretty centrist on Israel, but even if he agreed with the young progressives, he can't push too hard without letting trump take the white house, in which case he'd probably just give Israel nukes to wipe Gaza off the map. 

Lol Joe Biden is not centrist on Israel, not even close. Literally look at any part of his political history. He has been one of Israel's most staunch political allies his entire career. It's probably by far his most right wing and most longstanding position.

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1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Lol Joe Biden is not centrist on Israel, not even close. Literally look at any part of his political history. He has been one of Israel's most staunch political allies his entire career. It's probably by far his most right wing and most longstanding position.

He said on the record that Israel should agree to a ceasefire. That's about as centrist as it gets today. Yes, his history is far more staunch, same with several other issues on which he's softened (except pot for some dumb reason). 

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When you look at what actually happened, it's not really even possible for it to have just been a tragic mistake. Their own excuses at this point are "look man, we've completely lost control of our field commanders and they do whatever they want." 

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29 minutes ago, 'stache said:

He said on the record that Israel should agree to a ceasefire. That's about as centrist as it gets today. Yes, his history is far more staunch, same with several other issues on which he's softened (except pot for some dumb reason). 

He said there should be a ceasefire. Right before we send 18b more weapons of war to Israel. That's called talking out of both sides of your mouth.

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3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

He said there should be a ceasefire. Right before we send 18b more weapons of war to Israel. That's called talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I hate it, but if he blocks it, Trump becomes president, I truly believe that to be true with where the people are on Israel.

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15 minutes ago, Satchel said:

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

+1

The evolution of this discussion is pretty fascinating. I basically got called an antisemitic conspiracy theorist for linking this article back in October.

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1 hour ago, 'stache said:

I hate it, but if he blocks it, Trump becomes president, I truly believe that to be true with where the people are on Israel.

This is the truth.  Politically, Biden is playing this lose-lose situation correctly, as unhappy as it makes the tiktokers.

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1 hour ago, 'stache said:

I hate it, but if he blocks it, Trump becomes president, I truly believe that to be true with where the people are on Israel.

Blocks what?  A ceasefire, or blocks arms transfers?

Where people are on Israel is evolving quickly.

image.thumb.png.035f536286aae48a7078000434916600.png

 

image.thumb.png.85f6087be7d6cd6708c9fdd6b135945f.png

 

Like many issues, U.S. partisans find themselves on opposing sides. Most Republicans, though fewer than in the fall, support Israel's actions, while the vast majority of Democrats are opposed. Independents’ opinions are now much closer to those of Democrats.

Although Americans rate Biden's handling of the conflict poorly, his overall job approval rating is no lower now than before the conflict began. The issue does not register highly when Americans are asked to name the most important problem facing the U.S. Nor does it rank highly when Americans rate each of several international issues as critical threats to U.S. vital interests. It could hurt the president by dampening turnout among would-be Biden voters who care deeply about the issue and are upset with his handling of the situation.

 

And more directly to the point of aid...

image.thumb.png.b10505a80e54e5655dc9c1af75e75bec.png

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4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Blocks what?  A ceasefire, or blocks arms transfers?

Where people are on Israel is evolving quickly.

image.thumb.png.035f536286aae48a7078000434916600.png

 

image.thumb.png.85f6087be7d6cd6708c9fdd6b135945f.png

 

Like many issues, U.S. partisans find themselves on opposing sides. Most Republicans, though fewer than in the fall, support Israel's actions, while the vast majority of Democrats are opposed. Independents’ opinions are now much closer to those of Democrats.

Although Americans rate Biden's handling of the conflict poorly, his overall job approval rating is no lower now than before the conflict began. The issue does not register highly when Americans are asked to name the most important problem facing the U.S. Nor does it rank highly when Americans rate each of several international issues as critical threats to U.S. vital interests. It could hurt the president by dampening turnout among would-be Biden voters who care deeply about the issue and are upset with his handling of the situation.

 

And more directly to the point of aid...

image.thumb.png.b10505a80e54e5655dc9c1af75e75bec.png

Public opinion is probably even less supportive of Israel. The disconnect between politicians and constituents on this is due to AIPAC.

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Blocks what?  A ceasefire, or blocks arms transfers?

Where people are on Israel is evolving quickly.

image.thumb.png.035f536286aae48a7078000434916600.png

 

image.thumb.png.85f6087be7d6cd6708c9fdd6b135945f.png

 

Like many issues, U.S. partisans find themselves on opposing sides. Most Republicans, though fewer than in the fall, support Israel's actions, while the vast majority of Democrats are opposed. Independents’ opinions are now much closer to those of Democrats.

Although Americans rate Biden's handling of the conflict poorly, his overall job approval rating is no lower now than before the conflict began. The issue does not register highly when Americans are asked to name the most important problem facing the U.S. Nor does it rank highly when Americans rate each of several international issues as critical threats to U.S. vital interests. It could hurt the president by dampening turnout among would-be Biden voters who care deeply about the issue and are upset with his handling of the situation.

 

And more directly to the point of aid...

image.thumb.png.b10505a80e54e5655dc9c1af75e75bec.png

Both. I hope that’s true but I’m not willing to stake the future of this country on these numbers. It’s far more important that a fascist buffoon is defeated in November, whatever it takes.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 'stache said:

Both. I hope that’s true but I’m not willing to stake the future of this country on these numbers. It’s far more important that a fascist buffoon is defeated in November, whatever it takes.

Arming ethnic cleansing operations because afraid of Trump is certainly a take.

1 in 5 democrats and nearly 1 in 4 independents "much less likely to support" a candidate that continues military aid. If these numbers are accurate, your calculus seems backwards. Continuing with the status quo appears more likely to put Biden at risk with his own base and independents. If you think that Trump is going to wedge him on this issue and flip Democrats by taking on a pro-genocide position, I just don't see it. And Biden is not picking up those committed Trump voters either way. Seems the greater risk is eroding his own base, particularly the progressive wing of it and independents. Buy hey, maybe Michigan is disposable.   

Edited by Anastasis
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8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Arming ethnic cleansing operations because afraid of Trump is certainly a take.

1 in 5 democrats and nearly 1 in 4 independents "much less likely to support" a candidate that continues military aid. If these numbers are accurate, your calculus seems backwards. Continuing with the status quo appears more likely to put Biden at risk with his own base and independents. If you think that Trump is going to wedge him on this issue and flip Democrats by taking on a pro-genocide position, I just don't see it. And Biden is not picking up those committed Trump voters either way. Seems the greater risk is eroding his own base, particularly the progressive wing of it and independents. Buy hey, maybe Michigan is disposable.   

He's historically pretty good at reading the political winds, but on this issue he's having to tread carefully. Are any of those lost voters recoverable? People whose brothers and mothers and children have been killed or starved. Will they "come back" to Biden? If that is even possible, Biden is still figuring out how to accomplish that with minimal AIPAC blowback.

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5 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

+1

The evolution of this discussion is pretty fascinating. I basically got called an antisemitic conspiracy theorist for linking this article back in October.

Here’s a shocker: the board’s dumbfuck reactionaries turned out to be dumbfuck reactionaries. I put the worst offenders on ignore back in October and ditched the brainless DT thread entirely, and the conversation has been far more enlightening as a result. 

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2 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

Here’s a shocker: the board’s dumbfuck reactionaries turned out to be dumbfuck reactionaries. I put the worst offenders on ignore back in October and ditched the brainless DT thread entirely, and the conversation has been far more enlightening as a result. 

Nobody likes a quitter brick. It's a real hoot over there. You should try it. Not really different here tbh. 

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16 hours ago, Satchel said:

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Palestinian statehood will not happen because the west bank has been consumed by the settlers who are never leaving. Even if Hamas never existed, there would be no state. 

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28 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Lurch out here being a real piece of shit

Yeah....I'm pretty comfortable with "no genocide, no ethnic cleansing, no killing of fucking internationally recognized aid workers" as conditions for.....well, anything and everything.  I won't loan you my fucking bottle opener if you can't meet those goddamned conditions.

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4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Grifter just like Sinema.

To be fair to him, he hasn't blocked any major legislation or judge confirmations (yet). The most shitty things he's done have been related to Israel and saying stupid shit about immigration.

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18 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Nobody likes a quitter brick. It's a real hoot over there. You should try it. Not really different here tbh. 

I dropped out of both threads early on for being accused of antisemitism because I said Hebrew National hotdogs were inferior to HEB Heritage Brisket hotdogs.

 

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