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Rick Barnes thread

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SI needs to revisit this with Schofield and Williams...

Sports_Illustrated_41140_19760209-001-77

 

Still a long way to go in the season but the Vols are the cream of the crop in the SEC, anything less than a FF trip would have to be considered a huge disappointment for them. 

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19 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

This Tennessee team looks just so many of his best teams from the 00's. Very enjoyable for me to watch. 

In the back of my mind I am nervous for March. I know the rumors about his choking in March and I have seen the stats that he pretty much lived up to how his team played all season but I have never seen a Tennessee team so complete top to bottom. Everyone has bought in. We are playing like a Final 4 team. 

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11 hours ago, Underdog said:

SI needs to revisit this with Schofield and Williams...

Sports_Illustrated_41140_19760209-001-77

 

Still a long way to go in the season but the Vols are the cream of the crop in the SEC, anything less than a FF trip would have to be considered a huge disappointment for them. 

LOL. I didnt read your post before I commented but I agree on the FF and we have already said the same thing about Schofield and WIlliams. 

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21 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

This Tennessee team looks just so many of his best teams from the 00's. Very enjoyable for me to watch. 

So if past history plays out, this should be right around the time when his team starts breaking down under the pressure.  Let's see where they are in 6 weeks.  So far so good, and I hope Barnes has corrected some of his latter-year tendencies at UT, but I'm skeptical.

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3 hours ago, Clintonaldo said:

In the back of my mind I am nervous for March. I know the rumors about his choking in March and I have seen the stats that he pretty much lived up to how his team played all season but I have never seen a Tennessee team so complete top to bottom. Everyone has bought in. We are playing like a Final 4 team. 

Tennessee has arguably looked like the best team in the country, and certainly the most complete team. Schofield and Williams have been so money that when the guards are hittting their shots y'all ahold be favored against anyone.  i'm really pulling for this squad, and i think that the consistency of the two big studs and the leadership of Schofield will help take Tennessee to the Final 4. 

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38 minutes ago, markstanco said:


 

 


Derka explain your love for this.

 

you think that's what i love? his worst years? years where we averaged 22 wins per season btw. Imagine that- his worst five season stretch and we *averaged* more wins than we've ever had under Shaka, whose best season here went 20-13 with Rick's players. Hell yeah I love a guy with a record like that at a program like this. 

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On 1/19/2019 at 10:45 PM, Goo Punch said:

first 12 game win streak since 76-77.

and #1 in the land

rick seems to be doing ok for himself 

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34 minutes ago, kingkoopa6 said:

and #1 in the land

rick seems to be doing ok for himself 

Uh oh, we know what happened last time he got to #1 in the land....

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The last time Tennessee was AP #1, they promptly lost in Nashville to Vanderbilt.

Guess who's on the schedule this week?

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My god, congrats to Coach Barnes.  May be short lived, but he has truly rebooted his career and that program.  I was always sorry to see him go.

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Oh I thought it ended with getting bounced early in the tournament. My memory must be mistaken. Let me go to church and ask Sister Jean

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Good for Barnes, looks like change in scenery was a positive for him. I still dont regret the athletic department making a change when they did. Obviously Shaka is a bust, but there are very few sure things when hiring coaches. Hope we do better with the next hire.

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Just now, runthebone said:

Good for him.  His time had come at Texas, but I'm happy for him. 

Sorry, nuance is not allowed here.  PICK A SIDE

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3 hours ago, MotownHorn said:

A Rick Barnes team highly rated in January? Man where have I heard this story before? How does it end? I forget.

This has the potential to age very, very poorly. 

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3 hours ago, ztejas said:

This has the potential to age very, very poorly. 

I said the exact same thing last year before he got bounced by Sister Jean.

How many times has a Rick Barnes team overachieved in January and underachieved in March? At least 5, right? Probably closer to 10?

I wish him all the luck in the world. But I've seen this movie before.

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32 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

I said the exact same thing last year before he got bounced by Sister Jean.

How many times has a Rick Barnes team overachieved in January and underachieved in March? At least 5, right? Probably closer to 10?

I wish him all the luck in the world. But I've seen this movie before.

You know you may be on to something. I don't take back what I said, but I thought Barnes' tournament resume was better than it is. One FF, 2 EEs and 2 SSs at Texas. I could have sworn he had several SSs on top of the others. 

Could have been better for sure. That 2011 loss to 'Zona was brutal. That was a really good Horns team. 

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A Rick Barnes team highly rated in January? Man where have I heard this story before? How does it end? I forget.
I hope it's a better ending than all the other times, but yes, take a picture UTenn, it might be all you'll have at the end of the season.

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8 minutes ago, ztejas said:

You know you may be on to something. I don't take back what I said, but I thought Barnes' tournament resume was better than it is. One FF, 2 EEs and 2 SSs at Texas. I could have sworn he had several SSs on top of the others. 

Could have been better for sure. That 2011 loss to 'Zona was brutal. That was a really good Horns team. 

Yeah that 2010-2011 Horns team started the conference season 11-0 and somehow didn't win or even tie for the conference championship that year. It wasn't until years later that we learned of the chemistry issues on that team between J'Covan, Hamilton and a few other players. Apparently they didn't get along at all and it eventually prevented a great team from reaching their potential. 

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3 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Yeah that 2010-2011 Horns team started the conference season 11-0 and somehow didn't win or even tie for the conference championship that year. It wasn't until years later that we learned of the chemistry issues on that team between J'Covan, Hamilton and a few other players. Apparently they didn't get along at all and it eventually prevented a great team from reaching their potential. 

In addition, that was about the time or maybe the cause of, Rick "coaching angry." Between coaching angry a couple of years and his oddball alternative to it, he really lost his mojo here. 

Glad to see him doing well though. I think he's a pretty good coach and a good guy. 

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14 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Yeah that 2010-2011 Horns team started the conference season 11-0 and somehow didn't win or even tie for the conference championship that year. It wasn't until years later that we learned of the chemistry issues on that team between J'Covan, Hamilton and a few other players. Apparently they didn't get along at all and it eventually prevented a great team from reaching their potential. 

And yet they were still pretty damn good... I always wonder what that team could have put together if (insert name here, was it J'Covan?) doesn't get that 5 second turnover call at the end. 

That loss hurt. A lot. When once upon a time UT roundball held my undivided allegiance. 

I'm just holding my tongue on this Vols squad for now - no way in shit are they the best team in the country but it would be painful for a good amount of Horns fans if Barnes takes them dancing all night long. 

Not that it wasn't time for Rick to go - just sucks considering the wasteland that Texas has been in since. 

UT needs to find its next Tom Herman. 

 

Edited by ztejas

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Texas lost to Arizona in 2011 because an idiot referee couldn't count to five. The moron counted to four and then whistled a five-second violation and awarded Arizona the ball and a chance to win.

Whatever Rick's sins, that loss was not one of them. At least it gave us a good meme (Lizard Lips Rick).

Edited by Braff Zacklin

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2 hours ago, MotownHorn said:

I said the exact same thing last year before he got bounced by Sister Jean.

How many times has a Rick Barnes team overachieved in January and underachieved in March? At least 5, right? Probably closer to 10?

I wish him all the luck in the world. But I've seen this movie before.

i've accepted that a significant portion of our fan base only remembers the Rick Barnes era from 2010 on, and that this will never, ever change, no matter how many times you put the hard data in front of them. 

Rick Barnes is a spectacularly average tourney coach. Fact. His teams virtually always play to their seed, and we have two decades worth of evidence that shows this. History says that if Tennessee gets a two seed or better that you can pencil them in for the Elite 8. But MoTown Horn and countless other fans insist that history says otherwise. You can't tell them anything. Actually that's not true- you can tell them the facts, you just can't get them to accept them.

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1 hour ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Yeah that 2010-2011 Horns team started the conference season 11-0 and somehow didn't win or even tie for the conference championship that year. It wasn't until years later that we learned of the chemistry issues on that team between J'Covan, Hamilton and a few other players. Apparently they didn't get along at all and it eventually prevented a great team from reaching their potential. 

JB and Hamilton were roommates and no, they did not get along. Add to the that the fact both of them pretty much thought they knew better than Rick Barnes, and you can look back and see the toxicity that would inevitably screw the pooch for everyone. 

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For posterity:

99-7 seed lost to a 10 seed, first round

00- 5 seed lost to a 4 seed, second round

01- 6 seed lost to an 11 seed, first round 

02- 6 seed lost to 2 seed, Sweet 16

03- 1 seed lost to a 3 seed, Final Four 

04- 3 seed lost to a 7 seed, Sweet 16

05- 8 seed lost to a 9 seed, first round

06- 2 seed lost to a 4 seed, Elite 8

07- 4 seed lost to a 5 seed, second round

08- 2 seed lost to a 1 seed, Elite 8

09- 7 seed lost to a 2 seed, second round 

10- 8 seed lost to a 9 seed, first round

11- 4 seed lost to a 5 seed, second round

12- 11 seed lost to a 6 seed, first round

13- CBI

14- 7 seed lost to a 2 seed, second round

15- 11 seed lost to a 6 seed, first round

 

That's a whole bunch of 4 vs 5, and 8 vs 9 type losses. aside from 2001 and 2007 there aren't any major upsets, while 2007 and 2009 the team got screwed and should have gone even farther. As I said, spectacularly average. 

 

As a 1 seed- 4-1, Final Four

 

As a 2 seed- 6-2. two Elite 8's (the 06 team really let Barnes down and should have gone to the FF and probably the title game)

 

As a 3 seed- 2-1, Sweet 16

 

Barring multiple injuries I don't see Tennessee getting anything worse than a 3 seed. History says that it's a good bet that his team goes exactly as far as it's supposed to.

Edited by Goo Punch

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20 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

 

Rick Barnes is a spectacularly average tourney coach. Fact. His teams virtually always play to their seed, and we have two decades worth of evidence that shows this. History says that if Tennessee gets a two seed or better that you can pencil them in for the Elite 8. But MoTown Horn and countless other fans insist that history says otherwise. You can't tell them anything. Actually that's not true- you can tell them the facts, you just can't get them to accept them.

Except you are not telling me, or anyone else, facts. You’re telling us bullshit. Statistical analyses show him as one of the worst ncaa tournament coaches in the current era.

So please GTFOut of here with your incorrect, patronizing bullshit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/amp/

Tennessee’s Rick Barnes ranks as the second-worst NCAA tournament coach since 1985 by this metric, and his Volunteers flamed out as a No. 3 seed against No. 11 Loyola-Chicago. (Barnes beats only current Temple coach Fran Dunphy.)”

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12 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

Except you are not telling me, or anyone else, facts. You’re telling us bullshit. Statistical analyses show him as one of the worst ncaa tournament coaches in the current era.

So please GTFOut of here with your incorrect, patronizing bullshit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/amp/

Tennessee’s Rick Barnes ranks as the second-worst NCAA tournament coach since 1985 by this metric, and his Volunteers flamed out as a No. 3 seed against No. 11 Loyola-Chicago. (Barnes beats only current Temple coach Fran Dunphy.)”

Yeah, see my above post for said facts. Also, that metric you're referencing is dubious to say the least, and is not respected by anyone who knows how it actually works. It treats an 8 seed losing to a 9 seed as if that's a terrible upset. When Texas beat UNC as a higher seed in 2004 we were actually underdogs, another thing that metric fails to take into account. Had we lost to the favored Tar Heels your metric would punish us, while beating the favored team is deemed noting more than what should have happened. That's not a precise metric. 

The numbers don't lie- Rick Barnes' teams go where their seed says they will with very few exceptions. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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also, lol at referring to a one point loss to a Final Four team as "flaming out of the tournament." Never mind that that Tennessee team was supposed to finish 13th in the SEC. That's how hating on Rick Barnes works- you ignore the fact that he did an outstanding coaching job last year (SEC Coach of the Year, runner up for National Coach if the Year), you ignore the fact that this team that got a 3 seed was basically the Bad News Bears coming out of HS (Schofield was overweight and only getting offers from schools like Wisconsin-Green Bay, while Grant Williams was a 3 star getting recruited by App State and Hampton, neither of them supremely talented), you dismiss an entire season of coaching up talent and overachieving, and you boil it down to "his team flamed out of the tournament in a 3 vs 11 matchup", while again ignoring the fact that it was a one point loss to a team that went to the Final Four. Yeah there's definitely no axe to grind there.

Edited by Goo Punch

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4 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

Except you are not telling me, or anyone else, facts. You’re telling us bullshit. Statistical analyses show him as one of the worst ncaa tournament coaches in the current era.

So please GTFOut of here with your incorrect, patronizing bullshit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/amp/

Tennessee’s Rick Barnes ranks as the second-worst NCAA tournament coach since 1985 by this metric, and his Volunteers flamed out as a No. 3 seed against No. 11 Loyola-Chicago. (Barnes beats only current Temple coach Fran Dunphy.)”

Y'all are saying the same fucking shit packaged differently. Are you drunk or just picking a fight?

By what metric? 538 is notorious for dumb takes that ignore the forest for the trees.

Barnes has 22 wins in the tourney. Yeah he has 24 losses, too. That sounds pretty "mediocre" to me. How many other active coaches have that many tournament wins? A dozen, maybe? If that.

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33 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

 

The numbers don't lie- Rick Barnes' teams go where their seed says they will with very few exceptions. 

Yeah. Very few exceptions other than approximately 12 of the 16 years you posted where he lost to a lower seed. That’s only a vast majority of the time.

The numbers don’t lie but you sure misinterpret them.

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34 minutes ago, ztejas said:

 

Barnes has 22 wins in the tourney. Yeah he has 24 losses, too. That sounds pretty "mediocre" to me. How many other active coaches have that many tournament wins? A dozen, maybe? If that.

Looks like 20 or more active coaches have more wins than he does 

https://www.boydsbets.com/ncaa-tournament-best-coaches/

edit: that link appears old but generally accurate. I’m heading to bed. Will research it further tomorrow 

 

Edited by MotownHorn

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21 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

Looks like 20 or more active coaches have more wins than he does 

https://www.boydsbets.com/ncaa-tournament-best-coaches/

edit: that link appears old but generally accurate. I’m heading to bed. Will research it further tomorrow 

 

20 or more? Just sorted by wins and he's 12th. 

So I called it to a T. Maybe you sorted wrong? Idk. I do know you're citing some super sus sources for all of this shit. Tf is Boyd's Bets.

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11 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

Yeah, see my above post for said facts. Also, that metric you're referencing is dubious to say the least, and is not respected by anyone who knows how it actually works. It treats an 8 seed losing to a 9 seed as if that's a terrible upset. When Texas beat UNC as a higher seed in 2004 we were actually underdogs, another thing that metric fails to take into account. Had we lost to the favored Tar Heels your metric would punish us, while beating the favored team is deemed noting more than what should have happened. That's not a precise metric. 

The numbers don't lie- Rick Barnes' teams go where their seed says they will with very few exceptions. 

It bases expected wins on pre-game ELO probabilities, not seeds. So in a typical 8/9 game you would have an expected win value of about 0.5, so if you lose it's a -0.5 and if you win it's a +.5 on your ledger. The linked analysis is actually pretty decent.

A better argument against it would be that it just points out coaches who should have had their teams playing better in the regular season.

Edited by Huckleberry

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11 hours ago, ztejas said:

20 or more? Just sorted by wins and he's 12th. 

So I called it to a T. Maybe you sorted wrong? Idk. I do know you're citing some super sus sources for all of this shit. Tf is Boyd's Bets.

Yeah I was on a phone going to sleep like I said. Couldn't get the full picture on my phone. 

Sure he's 12th in active wins (good call on that) but if you look at the guys right behind him (Beilein, Miller, Howard) they have a couple less overall wins and a way better overall win percentage.

It's just a fact that he underachieves. That was my only point. It's supported by plenty of objective data. Derka claiming that he's spouting facts is simply incorrect.

See you in March when Tennessee makes the Sweet 16 at best. Like I said, I've seen this movie before. Over and over again.

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32 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

It's supported by plenty of objective data. Derka claiming that he's spouting facts is simply incorrect.

You both are "spouting facts," they're just from different perspectives.

Rick has more or less played to his seed as established by the NCAA Tournament selection committee, i.e., he reached the Final Four when a No.1 seed, the Elite Eight as a 2 seed, etc.

Your observation that he's almost always gone out to a lower-seeded team is also correct. However, as Derka noted, some of those were 50/50 matchups (8/9 in the first round, 4/5 in the second round, etc.) and shouldn't qualify as "flaming out" in anyone's opinion. Nor should the times we got "ref raped," such as against Xavier in 2004 (still one of the most unevenly officiated games I've ever seen).

It seems most everyone here--even Derka--was ready for a change by the end of the 2015 season, if not sooner. Whether it was a loss of passion, becoming too authoritarian, domestic issues, or just a run of terrible luck, the product he was putting on the court had become hard to watch.

Even so, I bear Coach Barnes no ill will and cannot understand why so many fans never miss an opportunity to throw him some shade. What he has done at Tennessee is already remarkable, yet there are those here who will keep taking a piss unless the Vols at least reach the Final Four.

What a sorry, sorry group of people.

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How does this Tennessee team rank among Barnes best teams at Texas or Clemson?  I saw them in person get beat by Loyola and predicted it based on seeing Barnes' prior teams under perform in the tourney, but haven't seen this year's version. 

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I think most of his Clemson teams were average or slightly above.  His early 2000 teams were great, with the TJ Ford led group being the most fun team to watch for me, but the talent level peaked afterward.  I think if TJ wouldn't have had issues with the spinal stenosis, he would have come back for his junior year and Barnes might have won a tournament.  TJ was Rick's VY, he made him take a step back and trust his players and loosen up a bit. 

It seemed to go downhill after that, and the J'Covan / Jordan Hamilton team was filled with guys that could play fantastic basketball but didn't want to play the disciplined style that Barnes demanded.  It was like Barnes wanted a team full of golden retrievers to play like dobermans.  Those guys wanted to run and score, and he demanded defense.  It was an awful ending, and one that most Horn fans were glad to see end.

I have no ill will toward Rick, and wish him the best at Tennessee.  I have strong doubts that this team finishes at the top, and will actually be surprised if they are higher than a 4 seed in the tournament.  But who knows.

Also, fuck Carmelo Anthony.

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1 hour ago, jinx said:

I think most of his Clemson teams were average or slightly above.

Rick was at Clemson for four years. Took them to the NIT the first year, and then to three consecutive NCAAs for the first time in school history, including the Sweet 16 his third year. Little better than "slightly above" average ...

1 hour ago, jinx said:

His early 2000 teams were great, with the TJ Ford led group being the most fun team to watch for me, but the talent level peaked afterward.  I think if TJ wouldn't have had issues with the spinal stenosis, he would have come back for his junior year and Barnes might have won a tournament.  TJ was Rick's VY, he made him take a step back and trust his players and loosen up a bit. 

It seemed to go downhill after that

T.J. left after his sophomore season in 2003 (Barnes practically shoved him out the door ... for altruistic reasons). Texas went to the Elite Eight twice after that (2006 and 2008), plus a Sweet 16 in 2004, so you might wanna work on that memory.

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5 hours ago, Clintonaldo said:

Last time Tennessee was ranked # 1 we lost to Vandy. Guess who we play next  

Was that after they beat Memphis who was #1 at the time?  

 

I want to say his 96/97 Clemson team lost a tough in the S16 to either Minny or UCLA, Minny went on to the FF which was eventually vacated for NCAA violations.  That team also beat UK earlier in the season, IIRC. 

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Was that after they beat Memphis who was #1 at the time?  
 
I want to say his 96/97 Clemson team lost a tough in the S16 to either Minny or UCLA, Minny went on to the FF which was eventually vacated for NCAA violations.  That team also beat UK earlier in the season, IIRC. 


Yep. Good memory


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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11 minutes ago, Underdog said:

^ I’m cursed with remembering shit that does me absolutely no good. 

 

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5 hours ago, dogbreath said:

How does this Tennessee team rank among Barnes best teams at Texas or Clemson?  I saw them in person get beat by Loyola and predicted it based on seeing Barnes' prior teams under perform in the tourney, but haven't seen this year's version. 

They're up there with his better teams at Texas. They don't have the NBA talent those Texas teams had (TJ, PJ, DJ, LA, etc), but they are very well rounded, and are probably the deepest team in the country. Jordan Bowden would start for any team in the Big XII yet he comes off the bench; Williams could be a first team AA this year and Schofield could be as high as second team AA. Two of their best guards (Turner and Bone) are actually having down years shooting the ball, so they could/should get even better as the season wears on. Fulkerson and Pons are big men who could play big minutes at a bunch of Big XII schools (including Texas) but they are simply those classic Barnes role players off the bench who come in and give a ton of energy for ~15 mpg. Its a pretty complete roster, but it's the leadership at the top with Schofield and Williams that carries this team. There's no substitute for having a go-to guy, or in this case two of them.

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