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Posted
2 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

 


Thanks, Twice. I always appreciate your posts on everything.

Regarding the bolded part, and I’ve seen a couple of similar explanations, would you say prayer could be treated more as meditation or a coping mechanism? A way of personally processing life’s hardships?

If a person firmly believes their version of God exists, then someone is listening, even if the response to prayer is unclear. If a person doesn’t believe in God, then people who pray are basically talking to themselves, but at least it helps them feel better or less alone in the world. I’m probably in the latter camp at this point but I can kinda understand the former camp even if I disagree.

Is that fair or completely off base?

Although, my perception is that a significant percentage of Christians believe that prayer can effect actual results, which is ludicrous to me for reasons mentioned in my first post. So I still don’t and possibly never will understand that group, and that’s where I get borderline angry when people are told that prayer will help a tragedy.

 

Absolutely.  I can't claim to understand it really.  I was raised Methodist and wasn't taught much of the outrageous shit you got from the fundamentalists. Hell, I took sex Ed at church for fucks sake.  It was overall a pretty positive experience.

Even so, I fell away from it as many or most do.  But came back to a spirituality through recovery from alcoholism through AA.  As is known, it is a program founded on "religious" principles, but the founders, despite using "God" and letting religion infiltrate it, also distilled it into basic principles common to most world religions that can be and are called just basic "spirituality," or "getting in touch with the universe" or pick your metaphysical metaphor, or God or Allah or Buddha or whatever.  For me, personally, the whole Christian God thing is just easier to wrap my head around than some of the other new-agey things it could be called.

So, looking back, I see a whole lot of the positives even in the church-raising I received, in what I consider one of the more intelligent denominations and although at a mighty-whitey church, was blessed with excellent, intelligent, insightful and compassionate clergy.

But yeah, prayer or meditation is "getting right with the world."  And that isn't praying for outcomes or prosperity, but for the strength and understanding to endure whatever it is we are confronted with.  And as alluded to earlier, that really often takes the form of "what do I do next, what is the next right thing"?

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Posted
1 hour ago, Mole said:

I will say that for me personally, prayer does work. Meditating on the suffering of others and seeking to see them with the level of selfless compassion show by Jesus in the Gospels is a good first step to finding ways to help others in their suffering. I think this is probably the case for most believers, despite the compassionless performative show we all run across so often. Jesus didn’t like the show all that much either.

Just make sure you do something with it.  I know many of the "we're praying for you" types that I have come across are doing it to just feel good about themselves for doing something without actually doing anything.  If you want to be useful, bring my family food or watch the kids for a night when I am stuck in the hospital and my wife is doing everything in the house.

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Posted

Prayer isn’t passive. 
prayer goes hand in hand with deeds. And being about as Jesus like as you can. 
I fight all the time with God like Job did. I see nothing wrong with this. What I see wrong is people putting platitudes on their walls while acting the opposite, judging others while claiming they do not. 
I believe in God. And Jesus. 
I believe in free will. I also believe that having free will allows for all sorts of shit to happen. 
I also believe we get warnings we don’t heed and when disasters happen many people pretend they didn’t see those warnings. 
that’s not how it works. God is here. But expecting him to make a miracle over campers who have already passed away before we even knew they were missing isn’t in the cards. 
 

my two cents. I don’t go out driving on ice 90 mph not wearing a seatbelt and then slam on the breaks shouting “Jesus take the wheel.” The tragedy at Mystic imo was 100% preventable. None of the other camps in session lost one person. I can blame any number of failures: the mentality of the county, our state government and whatever the hell was going on that night at Mystic where they didn’t move the campers as a precautionary measure before it was too late: that’s not on God. That’s on us. 

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Posted

Nicole Im having similar thoughts but Im leaving the door open for unique circumstances. Its sounding to me like debris got caught up in some trees or something and created dual prong fingers of very directed rushing water, and the left part of that water went straight into Bubble Inn. On the right side they lost one of the twins cabins but the other right next to it wasnt in the direct laser path of rushing water. 

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Posted
2 hours ago, wild_turkey said:


Although, my perception is that a significant percentage of Christians believe that prayer can effect actual results, which is ludicrous to me for reasons mentioned in my first post. So I still don’t and possibly never will understand that group, and that’s where I get borderline angry when people are told that prayer will help a tragedy.

 

Insensitive asshole here, but there's a thing I've seen the last 48 hours I just can't quite wrap my head around:

I've seen god knows how many "prayer warrior" posts the past few days, 99.9% from women, including  a lot by women I know, that seem convinced if they post on social media that they're praying hard enough, they can literally cause rescue to occur.  Like Stringer said in his post earlier, it's as if here's a finite prayer threshold that must be met before a miraculous outcome can be granted.

I absolutely understand the benefit (and inherent goodness) of having friends express genuine, heartfelt sympathy, but this ain't it.

Posted
6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Absolutely.  I can't claim to understand it really.  I was raised Methodist and wasn't taught much of the outrageous shit you got from the fundamentalists. Hell, I took sex Ed at church for fucks sake.  It was overall a pretty positive experience.

Even so, I fell away from it as many or most do.  But came back to a spirituality through recovery from alcoholism through AA.  As is known, it is a program founded on "religious" principles, but the founders, despite using "God" and letting religion infiltrate it, also distilled it into basic principles common to most world religions that can be and are called just basic "spirituality," or "getting in touch with the universe" or pick your metaphysical metaphor, or God or Allah or Buddha or whatever.  For me, personally, the whole Christian God thing is just easier to wrap my head around than some of the other new-agey things it could be called.

So, looking back, I see a whole lot of the positives even in the church-raising I received, in what I consider one of the more intelligent denominations and although at a mighty-whitey church, was blessed with excellent, intelligent, insightful and compassionate clergy.

But yeah, prayer or meditation is "getting right with the world."  And that isn't praying for outcomes or prosperity, but for the strength and understanding to endure whatever it is we are confronted with.  And as alluded to earlier, that really often takes the form of "what do I do next, what is the next right thing"?

Whoa now, Joel Osteen and all the Ed Young’s, and their equivalents Dallas and their literally millions of followers in Texas alone need you to pump the breaks right there. 
 

Posted

As has been pointed out, there's a lot of "virtue-signalling" surrounding prayer these days. And I don't think Jesus would approve.  I bet if you looked at the history of Christianity, you'd find public declarations of "I'll pray for you" and "We should pray for them" outside of a church service or function to be rare.  I'm guessing this became popular during the era of tent revivals and such.

And, I might need to elaborate on "the next right thing."  For some that may sound like you're asking for help on whether or not to eat those klobasniki in the work fridge or some dumb "moral" question like that.  And, at some level, it might be, especially for the newb, or the young.

But it's a meditation on what's going on in your life and those around you, what's good (gratitude), what's bad and you need help with.  And when you do it, things sometimes come to you that might not otherwise when you're all torqued up about something, you start finding you have a clarity that you didn't before.  If nothing else, it helps keep you from just moving from one emergency or shitshow to another.

Now, whether that is prayer to a divinity, or just meditation or reflection, a divine intervention, or just maximally good use of the human mind and body is a question I leave up to you.  But damned if it doesn't work for a lot of folks.

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

As has been pointed out, there's a lot of "virtue-signalling" surrounding prayer these days. And I don't think Jesus would approve.  I bet if you looked at the history of Christianity, you'd find public declarations of "I'll pray for you" and "We should pray for them" outside of a church service or function to be rare.  I'm guessing this became popular during the era of tent revivals and such.

And, I might need to elaborate on "the next right thing."  For some that may sound like you're asking for help on whether or not to eat those klobasniki in the work fridge or some dumb "moral" question like that.  And, at some level, it might be, especially for the newb, or the young.

But it's a meditation on what's going on in your life and those around you, what's good (gratitude), what's bad and you need help with.  And when you do it, things sometimes come to you that might not otherwise when you're all torqued up about something, you start finding you have a clarity that you didn't before.  If nothing else, it helps keep you from just moving from one emergency or shitshow to another.

Now, whether that is prayer to a divinity, or just meditation or reflection, a divine intervention, or just maximally good use of the human mind and body is a question I leave up to you.  But damned if it doesn't work for a lot of folks.

100% this (in my belief).

Edited by Vegas64
Posted

I pray.
I pray by acting. Because Christianity isn’t a faith, belief, or label. It’s a fucking WAY. It’s not something you say, it’s something you DO.
The most meaningful prayer isn’t done with your hands folded. It’s done with your hands in motion, feeding, helping, holding, DOING.
What we have in American Christianity? It’s 99% performative bullshit done to absolve the powerful of any responsibility or obligation to actually use their hands to HELP others. Prayer is doing “for the least of these.” In America, prayer is saying meaningless words while working to hurt the least of these. In other words, the opposite of “the way.”
I hate American prayer.

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Posted
5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

As has been pointed out, there's a lot of "virtue-signalling" surrounding prayer these days. And I don't think Jesus would approve.

Not like there's a parable explicitly about that or anything lol.

11 hours ago, Storm the Field said:

Insensitive asshole here, but there's a thing I've seen the last 48 hours I just can't quite wrap my head around:

I've seen god knows how many "prayer warrior" posts the past few days, 99.9% from women, including  a lot by women I know, that seem convinced if they post on social media that they're praying hard enough, they can literally cause rescue to occur.  Like Stringer said in his post earlier, it's as if here's a finite prayer threshold that must be met before a miraculous outcome can be granted.

I absolutely understand the benefit (and inherent goodness) of having friends express genuine, heartfelt sympathy, but this ain't it.

My biggest issue is that the State is advocating for prayer over implementation of meaningful flood alert and warning systems. Can't spend a million on sirens, but can find billions for hateful projects that are quickly abandoned. But please keep praying!!!!

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Posted
1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Not like there's a parable explicitly about that or anything lol.

My biggest issue is that the State is advocating for prayer over implementation of meaningful flood alert and warning systems. Can't spend a million on sirens, but can find billions for hateful projects that are quickly abandoned. But please keep praying!!!!

Is it the state, or the people? Chicken, or the egg?

Quote

 

In an interview, Rob Kelly, the Kerr County judge and its most senior elected official, said the county did not have a warning system because such systems are expensive, and local residents are resistant to new spending.

“Taxpayers won’t pay for it,” Mr. Kelly said. Asked if people might reconsider in light of the catastrophe, he said, “I don’t know.”

 

 

Posted
4 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Is it the state, or the people? Chicken, or the egg?

The same man who said we should all be doing is praying, is the same man who unilaterally authorized billions for a border wall project that has since been abandoned unfinished. There's money available, but that would be admitting that the climate has changed and become more dangerous for Texans.

But I'll leave further comments for a more appropriate thread.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, bolverk said:

I recall a study a few years ago that showed hospital patients tended to fare worse when they knew people were praying for them. If I remember correctly, they hypothesized that it made patients feel stressed and/or have “performance anxiety” about their recovery. Of course, these weren’t hospice patients being questioned about their belief in a god.

From the experience I gained taking care of my mom for a few months when she was getting hospice care, I think her devout belief did give her some comfort, knowing that she would soon pass and be with my dad.

So maybe the takeaway is don’t expect god or prayers to intercede in whether you get well or sick or live or die, except to make you feel more mentally prepared in the end. 

I'm fine with this, I just wish this was how it was preached. I was at my aunt's funeral last week, she was very devout Catholic, we did a Rosary, full mass, etc. I haven't attended Catholic church in more than 10 years except for family stuff when necessary. I got the feeling that the prayers were to help those in the room feel better during a tough time and I appreciated that part of the ceremony. I just hate that its not taught that way and that religious people especially in the US not only act so shitty to each other but expressly mention their religion while doing so. The last Catholic church service I attended was my neice's confirmation a few years ago. The priest included a lecture on how they will be persecuted for their beliefs and called outcasts for standing by them and to be strong. This was of course directly related to signs all over the lobby to vote against a state constitutional amendment on abortion rights. The last Catholic service I volutnarily attended included a recorded lecture from the Bishop not so vaguely urging support for a state constitutional amendment on fetal "personhood" which of course means anti-abortion. It made me physically ill having to listen to that bullshit in both circumstances. The US Bishops Association (or whatever its called) is pubicly supportive of laws in Oklahoma allowing for taxpayer funded Catholic charter school. Fuck all of it, bunch of fucking charlatans.

Edited by 'stache
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