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2020-2021 NBA Thread of Insanity

ztejas

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3874

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3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Eh. It depends on if he gets better or not. I mean- that's the case for everyone but his playmaking is as advertised. If he doesn't add a reliable jumper and scoring there is a ceiling that is lower than all star on him.  He went 3rd.  So the expectation should be regular all star at that spot in the draft.  

I'd be worried about if he's going to get better just b/c of how much of a clown his dad is.  It's about work ethic from here out on him (as it is on almost everyone in the league- obviously). Hope he does what he has to in order to get better b/c he is fun. 

Yes and no.  He's playing well, in a SSS, for a rookie and if he wants to be a real top 2 on a contending team, then yes, he'll have to figure out how to increase his shooting a touch.  It's actually not that bad at 43.3/36.3/79.1 but unless he improves efficiency, he'll never get to those top levels, but he could definitely get All-Star level by simply refining his current skill set.  Improve the FT% a tad, finish a little better and with minutes and time, get his AST% into elite category and that's an All-Star level. player, but not a superstar.

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Patrick Bateman

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30 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

 

who, if anyone, could the Jazz realistically add to take them over the top and into contender status? i love them as a regular season team, but who is their alpha dog in the playoffs? sorry, but you aren't winning the West on the back of Spida Mitchell or Rudy Gobert. 

 

What do they have to trade that folks would want besides those two?  They have some nice supporting pieces, but really, anything going to get a Bradley Beal or Siakam?  Doubtful.  They also traded away their first round pick although it may convey in 2022 so they can't get real cute with draft capital.  They'll probably work the margins and try and strengthen their bench but they could use a dedicated ISO scorer off the bench.

 

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aggie08

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1 hour ago, ztejas said:

 

If KD wins a title with these two I never want to hear about his fake legacy again.

Amen to that. If they win a title, it'll be because KD took over the team's mindset, they follow his lead, and he got everyone pulling in the same direction.

All of this "everyone's a coach/shared ownership/respect our individualism" basketball utopia crap ain't going to work with those two.

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Kermit

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2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Amen to that. If they win a title, it'll be because KD took over the team's mindset, they follow his lead, and he got everyone pulling in the same direction.

All of this "everyone's a coach/shared ownership/respect our individualism" basketball utopia crap ain't going to work with those two.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t KD usually defer to his more strong-personality teammates?

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aggie08

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2 hours ago, Kermit said:

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t KD usually defer to his more strong-personality teammates?

That's my point: if he does that on this team, they could be proper fucked.

Russ has his many flaws, but no one questions his drive and passion.

Golden State was obviously Steph's team and molded themselves to his persona, with Draymond providing the intensity.

The Nets have pretty much said that they're going to employ the democratic approach to leadership. With two dudes who I know for a fact are not leaders, a rookie coach, and a best player who tends to defer that role.

That's a lot of words to spell out what everyone already knows.

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Kermit

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24 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

That's my point: if he does that on this team, they could be proper fucked.

Russ has his many flaws, but no one questions his drive and passion.

Golden State was obviously Steph's team and molded themselves to his persona, with Draymond providing the intensity.

The Nets have pretty much said that they're going to employ the democratic approach to leadership. With two dudes who I know for a fact are not leaders, a rookie coach, and a best player who tends to defer that role.

That's a lot of words to spell out what everyone already knows.

Yeah, but you use a lot of purty words.

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aggie08

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7 minutes ago, Kermit said:

That dude torched Spurs and they threw the kitchen sink at him. 

Kerr said this season (after a slow start) is the best he's ever played, and I'd have to agree, even if his efficiency is down ever so slightly from his MVP years. Every defense is geared solely to stop him, and it's barely slowed him down. He's beating double and triple teams with more patience and control than he's ever shown, poking and prodding. 2nd highest usage of his career, 2nd lowest turnover %. He's become the best under the rim finisher in basketball, and I'm not sure it's particularly close. The variety of shot making that he displayed last night was absurd. He won't win MVP on a team that will struggle to make the playoffs (though he should absolutely be in contention if he drags them in), but they're going to be contenders once he has a real 2nd option again.

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aggie08

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31 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

149261822_10158858975466006_469873233916

Vic, on a personal note, could you post negative memes of my favorite athletes more frequently? You posted one a couple months back about Tom Brady not being an improvement over Jameis Winston when they were 7-5...Tampa Bay never lost again. And you posted one a couple games into the NBA season about Steph looking like Jarrett Jack without KD and Klay around him.

Your powers are almost Greenspoint-ian.

 

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ztejas

ztejas 43190

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21 minutes ago, Machinator said:

Surprising that Steph and Klay never did this, but I suppose a game like that would have been too out of hand for it to get to that point.

 

I just parsed through some games from 2016 and it didn't take long to find a 10/6 Klay/Steph game and 8/7 game from that season. That year, Curry had 11 games with 8 made 3s, Klay had 5. 

I think mainly it is just really rare for two guys to be THAT on on the same night. It looks like Curry and Steph have had more than plenty of games where they combine into the mid teens - but usually it's with one guy hitting 9 or 10 or more by himself.

They had a few years where they were attempting close to 20 3s a game between them - but that's on something like 42 or 43% weighted. 

Say you're both shooting at a 70% clip on a given night, you'd still need to attempt ~23 3s combined to get to 8 each. 

Something else that makes it rare (and what actually be the main reason) is that when you have a guy who is stroking them like that you feed him. If Klay starts 5/6 then you are going to keep passing him the ball until he cools off - making it hard even for someone like Curry to start piling them up himself. 

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UpperWestside

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If someone had told me the Purple and Gold would be 20-6 at this point in the season I would have been more than happy for that to be their record. I believe we have the most talented roster this year, but with the new schedule featuring back-to-back games against the same team I figured that would be a hindrance to the overall record. Other teams are definitely having issues with it. Knock on wood with COVID not really having sidelined anyone yet. I figure it is coming at some point unless there is a league wide vaccination that takes place down the line. I don’t advocate for the players to get to skip the line as there are many millions of people who direly need it before they do. It seems somewhat inevitable for it to hit the Lakers at some point this season since we still do not have a grip on COVID yet as a country.

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UpperWestside

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2 hours ago, Machinator said:

Surprising that Steph and Klay never did this, but I suppose a game like that would have been too out of hand for it to get to that point.

 

Good on them for pulling that off! After watching LaVine look like vintage  Jordan this year in the first game against my guys it is not surprising he went off. This won’t be the last pair of teammates to do it. I would expect great shooting nights between teammates to become much commonplace with how the rules are as well as guys that can just shoot better. Players have evolved their games and we get to witness that with a performance like this one. I think it’s cool to see the evolution of the game and how it has changed for the better in most aspects. 

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ztejas

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8 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

If someone had told me the Purple and Gold would be 20-6 at this point in the season I would have been more than happy for that to be their record. I believe we have the most talented roster this year, but with the new schedule featuring back-to-back games against the same team I figured that would be a hindrance to the overall record. Other teams are definitely having issues with it. Knock on wood with COVID not really having sidelined anyone yet. I figure it is coming at some point unless there is a league wide vaccination that takes place down the line. I don’t advocate for the players to get to skip the line as there are many millions of people who direly need it before they do. It seems somewhat inevitable for it to hit the Lakers at some point this season since we still do not have a grip on COVID yet as a country.

LeBron is definitely my MVP now. I think he really needs that 5th. Why he's one of the GOATs. 

I think I'd go:

1. LeBron

2. Kawhi

3. Embiid 

Right now.

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Vic Mackey

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15 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

If someone had told me the Purple and Gold would be 20-6 at this point in the season I would have been more than happy for that to be their record. I believe we have the most talented roster this year, but with the new schedule featuring back-to-back games against the same team I figured that would be a hindrance to the overall record. Other teams are definitely having issues with it. Knock on wood with COVID not really having sidelined anyone yet. I figure it is coming at some point unless there is a league wide vaccination that takes place down the line. I don’t advocate for the players to get to skip the line as there are many millions of people who direly need it before they do. It seems somewhat inevitable for it to hit the Lakers at some point this season since we still do not have a grip on COVID yet as a country.

Lakers are the team to beat right now in the West. It is going to take an injury to knock them off. Utah is a feel good story but they are not beating LA in 7. Denver damn sure isn't. I still think LAC will be the biggest threat to knock them off. I hate them but for entertainment purposes and because I know Dallas will be no threat, I'd love to see a 7 game series with both LA teams.

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BradInATX

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On 2/9/2021 at 4:57 PM, Wulaw Horn said:

Eh. It depends on if he gets better or not. I mean- that's the case for everyone but his playmaking is as advertised. If he doesn't add a reliable jumper and scoring there is a ceiling that is lower than all star on him. 

They said this about Jason Kidd right up until he waltzed into the hall of fame.

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Wulaw Horn

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4 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

They said this about Jason Kidd right up until he waltzed into the hall of fame.

Yeah. He did become a really good three point shooter late in his career but even without that he’d have been a sure fire HOF. He’s kind of the exception that proves the rule in that way. Is little Ball really that good?  I’m asking. I have no real opinion. 

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BradInATX

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Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah. He did become a really good three point shooter late in his career but even without that he’d have been a sure fire HOF. He’s kind of the exception that proves the rule in that way. Is little Ball really that good?  I’m asking. I have no real opinion. 

Yeah, I don't really either, I'm just throwing a counterpoint out there. I haven't actually seen him play at all this year. Barely had time to watch most of the Spurs games and maybe 5 other random games this season. And I don't like the Balls like your mom does, so I'm not really going to go hard defending any of those guys. But you can definitely carve out a good-to-great career as a PG if you do everything else really well. There are a lot of those guys throughout history. Sam Cassell is another one that comes to mind that never really developed a reliable shot.

Hell, his FG% this year is higher than Iverson's career FG%. 

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BradInATX

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2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Different era. Same goes for the Iverson comp.

 

Naw.

 

2001 - Iverson's MVP year and one of Kidd's best seasons

League Average eFG%: 47.7%
Iverson: 44.7% (-3.0%)
Kidd: 44.3% (-3.4%)

 

2021 - LaMelo's rookie year

League: 53.5%
LaMelo Ball: 51.1% (-2.4%)

 

Those two guys were below average shooters for their entire career. 

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d2o

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11 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah. He did become a really good three point shooter late in his career but even without that he’d have been a sure fire HOF. He’s kind of the exception that proves the rule in that way. Is little Ball really that good?  I’m asking. I have no real opinion. 

He has close to that kinda vision and is actually a better shooter/scorer than  Kidd was in his first few yrs.    I've watched them about 5-6 times now and all I can think is he is gonna get Miles Bridges a max contract like Kidd got Lamond Murray, Richard Jefferson, Kenyon Martin and others paid.    He makes others look that good.

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BradInATX

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6 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

who's playing better than Jimmy Butler on a nightly basis right now? man is back.

 

I haven't been watching much outside of my own team this year due to real life getting in the way. Was the Heat slump purely a matter of Jimmy being out? Looks like they've turned it on since his return.

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Brothahorn

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Charlotte Hornets rookie LaMelo Ball is already exceeding expectations. The No. 3 overall pick was named NBA rookie of the month for January and has earned a spot in the starting lineup for the Hornets, who are firmly in the mix for the NBA play-in round.

 

Despite his immense talent, Ball faced plenty of criticism heading into the 2020 NBA draft, including concerns from some front offices that his poor shooting and approach to the game could limit his potential.

 

What has stood out the most about Ball's play so far? How has he been better than expected? And what does this all mean for his superstar potential?

ESPN experts Kevin Pelton and Mike Schmitz dive into Ball's game and what comes next.

 

How Ball's star skills are shining earlier than expected

Kevin Pelton: Even though both of us had Ball as our No. 1 prospect in the draft, as did our colleague Jonathan Givony, I think that was more about long-term potential for the 19-year-old point guard than what he could contribute right away.

 

Yet as we stand, Ball is having one of the most impressive rookie seasons on record for a player his age. In fact, at his current pace, it would be the most wins above replacement player (WARP) by my metric for a rookie who played his entire first season at age 19 or younger, eclipsing LeBron James' and Dwight Howard' marks:

Rookie WARP (age 19 or younger)

PlayerSeasonTeamAgeWARP

LaMelo Ball2020-21CHA19.79.1*

LeBron James2003-04CLE19.37.7

Dwight Howard2004-05ORL19.47.7

Andre Drummond2012-13DET19.77.1

Kevin Garnett1995-96MIN19.94.8

Carmelo Anthony2003-04DEN19.94.8

 

Now, 26 games is not a full season, and it remains to be seen whether Ball can maintain this pace. Still, that's lofty company for a No. 3 pick.

 

Mike, what has stood out so far to you in terms of Ball's precocious production?

 

Mike Schmitz: Even the most optimistic Ball stans expected there to be a considerable learning curve given his untraditional path to the NBA and the fact that he hadn't played a competitive game in over a year. But I've been really impressed with how quickly he has responded to any internal criticism or shortened leash from the coaching staff.

 

One of the biggest pre-draft complaints we heard from NBA executives regarding Ball was that he rarely finished a full season, either bailing on his team or going down with an injury. NBA franchises questioned how Ball would contribute to winning if he wasn't given the keys to the organization right away.

 

That never seemed completely fair. I saw Ball respond to challenges from coaches and teammates following disappointing performances with the Illawarra Hawks (of the National Basketball League), and that has carried over in Charlotte.

 

Since head coach James Borrego benched Ball in the third quarter against the Chicago Bulls on Jan. 23, the rookie has been outstanding, averaging 19.0 points, 6.3 assists, 4.9 rebounds, 2.7 turnovers and 1.4 steals in 30.2 minutes on 54% shooting from 2 and 39% from 3. From talking to people around the organization, Ball's buy-in, adaptability, coachability and infectious personality have all stood out. He has made the Hornets an NBA League Pass favorite and quickly earned the respect of his teammates and coaches. Given all of his pre-draft questions, that matters just as much as his stunning passing or surprising shooting.

Where has Ball has been better than expected?

 

Pelton: I think you have to start with the shooting given that was the biggest skill-based concern about Ball's potential. After infamously making just 25% of his 3-point attempts in 12 NBL regular-season games, Ball is shooting an impressive 36% from the longer NBA line thus far.

 

Ball believers pointed to the difficulty of the shots he was taking as evidence his NBL percentage didn't reflect his shooting ability. Per Synergy Sports tracking, Ball attempted just 15 unguarded catch-and-shoot jumpers among his 80 3-point attempts. Still, I figured at best Ball would end up more of a volume 3-point shooter than an accurate one, along the lines of Luka Doncic. That might yet prove the case, but so far Ball is shooting 36% on pull-up 3s, per Second Spectrum tracking on NBA Advanced Stats, and 39% on catch-and-shoot opportunities.

 

Beyond that, I've been impressed with his decision-making with the ball in his hands. I've written before about the poor track record of one-and-done point guards as rookies, and turnovers are often a big part of that. Turnovers have been a huge issue for the two other international point guards in this year's draft, Killian Hayes (26% of his plays before he was sidelined by a hip injury) and Theo Maledon (20% of his plays). Yet for all his flashy passing, Ball is committing turnovers on just 16% of his plays -- still above average for a point guard, but similar to other high-volume creators such as Trae Young.

 

Schmitz: Yeah, I was fairly confident in Ball's shotmaking ability. He is maybe the most confident young player I've ever been around, seemingly never feeling even an ounce of pressure. Plus, his free throw numbers and touch on floaters suggested he has great natural touch.

 

To me, Ball has been much better fitting in alongside other accomplished perimeter players -- such as Devonte' Graham, Terry Rozier and Gordon Hayward -- than I expected. I loved the fit in Charlotte because of the small market, future cap space to build around Ball, development-focused coaching staff and young pieces in P.J. Washington and Miles Bridges to help accentuate Ball's playmaking.

 

I also thought Graham, Rozier and Hayward would help take pressure off Ball from having to create all the offense. But I didn't anticipate that he'd fit in alongside them so seamlessly, so quickly. Lineups featuring Ball, Graham and Hayward are a plus-49 in 116 total minutes.

 

Ball was never the most engaged off-ball player before entering the NBA, with a lot of room to improve his activity and shot preparation. Through 26 games with Charlotte, he has become a legitimate threat in catch-and-shoot situations, boasting an eFG of 60.0% on 1.5 attempts per game, according to Second Spectrum tracking. He's more disciplined with his mechanics, and some teams have even started running him off the 3-point line or biting for his shot fake. From there, Ball is tremendous at reading a scrambling defense. He's also a willing ball-mover, an adept cutter and an outstanding offensive rebounder, even if his tendency to go rogue hurts Charlotte's transition defense at times.

 

I often tabbed Ball as a 6-foot-7 version of Young in the pre-draft process. Now that Charlotte has been dealing with the injury bug, we're seeing that version of Ball more -- unleashed, firing one-handed darts all over the floor, splashing deep pull-up 3s. That was a little more expected. But the fact that he can mesh well with other ball handlers bodes well for his potential to play deep into the playoffs someday.

 

What do we know about Ball's ceiling now?

 

Pelton: I mean, is there a ceiling? Looking at the production of 19-year-old rookies and Ball's similarity scores in my SCHOENE projection system (he scores as most similar within six months of the same age to Luka Doncic's rookie season), I'm not sure you can give him one. Which is not to say that Ball will get to that level or that it's a reasonable expectation for someone with such a short track record of NBA success, just that very little can be ruled out based on his performance to date.

 

Given Ball is still 19, there's lots of improvement needed and to be expected. That starts with something I just praised, his turnover rate. While it's good for a teenage point guard, he can improve dramatically, particularly in cutting some low-percentage passes out of his arsenal. According to PBPstats.com, Ball's 21 passes out of bounds this season are five more than any other player. That has an impact on the team's turnover rate. Per Cleaning the Glass, the Hornets rank in the 85th percentile league-wide in avoiding turnovers with Ball on the bench and drop to the 11th percentile when he plays.

 

I'd also point to his ability to score off the dribble, somewhere we've already seen progress. Overall, Ball's 0.91 points per chance on drives on which he shoots rank 86th out of the 110 players with at least 50 such shots, according to Second Spectrum tracking. But this was even worse early in the season; his 0.76 points per chance shooting on drives ranked last among players with at least 50 attempts through Jan. 15. Since then, he's up to a league-average 1.05 points per chance.

 

Improving his ability to draw fouls around the basket, something highlighted on Twitter by Nekias Duncan and PD Web, will also help Ball's efficiency because he's a 79% free throw shooter.

 

Schmitz: I definitely think finishing around the rim is priority No. 1 for Ball offensively. This is generally an area where rookies struggle, so the fact that he has converted 46.6% of his attempts at the rim in the half-court offense and doesn't get to the free throw line at a great rate is far from a red flag. Still, he has left a lot of points on the board at the rim simply because he doesn't quite have the strength or vertical pop to finish against high-level rim protectors. He's quite unorthodox around the rim, regularly going to his left hand from obscure angles when he has space to finish with his right.

 

I am confident Ball will eventually evolve into a plus finisher as his frame continues to fill out, especially because of his ambidexterity, touch and floater game. Remember, he's a late-bloomer who stood just 6-foot-5 in 2017-18 and is still growing into his body. He has had a few near-dunks this season that I wouldn't have expected based on what I saw in Australia.

 

On top of finishing and tightening up his decision- making, Ball's defensive discipline could use a face-lift. Despite ranking 432nd out of 459 players in defensive real plus minus, I would argue he has actually been better than most anticipated on that end because of his size and instincts. Among players who average at least 25 minutes per game, Ball is one of only 10 with a steal rate over 2.5 and a block rate over 1.0, joining elite defenders such as Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Jrue Holiday and Marcus Smart. He has incredible anticipation in the passing lanes and is a brilliant positional rebounder who reads the ball off the rim as well as any guard I can remember.

 

He's also gamble-heavy, lacks physicality and determination on the ball and gets caught napping off the ball. His ignoring of the scouting report and helping off knockdown shooters to go rogue has to be frustrating for coaches and teammates. The encouraging part is that he has the court sense and tools to become a plus defender in time. And these are all typical rookie issues. You could argue Ball has as much long-term upside as any young point guard in the league. His unshakable confidence combined with his superpowers as a passer, ball handler and all-around basketball player are impossible to teach.

 

I know both of us believed in Ball's long-term upside before the draft. The fact that he has already been this productive and efficient indicates he has everything in place to evolve into one of the best point guards -- and potentially best players -- in the NBA someday.

 

https://insider.espn.com/espn/print?id=30878258

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ztejas

ztejas 43190

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Stan Van Gundy is beyond washed and people need to quit giving him head coaching gigs. Every time I watch this Pelicans team I come away thinking they are a poorly coached mess that is less than the sum of their parts.

Also - speaking of Van Gundys - Doris Burke has turned into a female JVG. I used to enjoy her, but God she talks a lot and goes on weird tangents.

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Brothahorn

Brothahorn 10081

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10 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Stan Van Gundy is beyond washed and people need to quit giving him head coaching gigs. Every time I watch this Pelicans team I come away thinking they are a poorly coached mess that is less than the sum of their parts.

Also - speaking of Van Gundys - Doris Burke has turned into a female JVG. I used to enjoy her, but God she talks a lot and goes on weird tangents.

After getting ran out of Miami, Orlando and Detroit, it was laughable to think that he was going to get this young team over the hump. Poster boy for NBA retreads.

 

Doris has always talked too much. Made much worse by the fact she has a terrible voice.

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Brothahorn

Brothahorn 10081

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12 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:


 

 


She analyzes the game well. Also her breadth of accurate knowledge is impressive. But then again I've been fed a heavy dose of Fran Fraschilla this season.

 

She knows the game. Or at least how to repeat what she is told. No question. Doesn't change the terrible voice and over talking.

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UpperWestside

UpperWestside 6081

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The Lakers trailed by 20 at one point tonight against Memphis and won by 10. Dillon Brooks poked the bear, a bear that was going at about half speed in the first half, and FAAFO what happens when you do that. James said something to him after every shot he hit from near the end of the 3rd until he left the game. He had three shots in a row where he was playing a game of horse against himself. It was one of the more humorous sequences I have watched this season from anyone.

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