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1883


billfromlaketravis

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Here is something to nitpick about....at about 11:15 in S1E6....when the gypsy lady is thinking to sell her late husbands shotgun....you can see the buttplate and it looks plastic. Doubt there was any plate in 1883 or on a weapon from the "old world". Those are the details that matter to me, production details, not story telling. 

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40 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

I like that the cook they hired is the bad guy from Wind River, livestock agent from Yellowstone, and also the chief of prison staff on Mayor of Kingstown

Just wait until we see the native americans in 1883....pretty sure they will be familiar.

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9 hours ago, utxmike05 said:

Did the mention how much they got paid for each German?  

9 hours ago, Juicy said:

I think it was $250 a person and there were like 160 of them at the start so 40k. Sam Elliot could have opened a bank.

Only $250?  Germans seem like they'd have more money and be a lot more trouble than $250.

giphy.gif

 

 

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On 1/30/2022 at 6:52 AM, RPM said:

Really good episode. I think maybe they have been referencing Abilene, Kansas as the restocking point? We naturally think of Abilene, Texas but it would make more sense trip/story wise. Tim wasn't the only one to give a good performance.

I'm so glad they're leaving Texas now, and I won't be so bothered by the writers' geographic ineptitude.

Here's their path so far:

They traveled north out of Fort Worth, maybe following the Chisolm Trail, got close to the Red River and decided it was too high to cross. They discussed heading east or west, and decided to go west toward Abilene which led them to cross the Brazos River (just north of the Clear Fork) near present-day Graham and close to the then abandoned Fort Belknap on the map below.

Then, suddenly, they're somewhere out near the 6666 Ranch and are now about to cross the Red River just north of Vernon at Doan's Crossing seemingly in a plan to follow the Western Cattle Trail without mentioning that they would've had to cross the Brazos AGAIN to get there. Why cross it in the first place if they were heading to Doan's all along?

Now, they want us to believe they were talking about Abilene, Kansas, this whole time which would be well to the east of where they're heading? Madness.

Cattle-trails.jpg

/rant

 

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5 hours ago, next2naus said:

Here is something to nitpick about....at about 11:15 in S1E6....when the gypsy lady is thinking to sell her late husbands shotgun....you can see the buttplate and it looks plastic. Doubt there was any plate in 1883 or on a weapon from the "old world". Those are the details that matter to me, production details, not story telling. 

Hard rubber, or gutta percha. Been around since the 1830's. The first generation Colt SAA's grips were made out of it.

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24 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Hard rubber, or gutta percha. Been around since the 1830's. The first generation Colt SAA's grips were made out of it.

Even earlier than that (but I don't think used in the Western world), but yeah, used for a lot of things we think of plastic being used for, all the way up to when Bakelite saw mainstream use.  Will have to go back and look at the show, but normally they are black or dark red, but over time they start to look gray or brown.

That cane that was used to beat the shit out of Charles Sumner in the 1850s?  Gutta percha.  Colt forums usually have somebody asking about getting replica grips made out of the stuff. 

Definitely would have been shotgun buttplates made out of the stuff in the 1880s.  I don't know if it's just the age or condition of the one I used several years ago, but it was hard as shit.  Edit: In hindsight, may not have been.

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i went looking for a map of their route as i figured surely someone had done that... didn't find one but did find this, which offers a theory for the haphazard route and apparent lack of planning...

https://screenrant.com/1883-duttons-no-plan-map-explained/

basically says reliable maps and route information were nonexistent at the time, the area was not well-documented bc it was dominated by Native American tribes who probably didn't cotton to cartography by the white man.

i mean...maybe? seems like they could have invested in a reliable NA guide, that's what the Army did. 

1180432426_tenor(8).gif.be8338550b52bf1186ee34da8afe9924.gif

also it reads like a college film class essay 😄

Edited by mchookem
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34 minutes ago, mchookem said:

basically says reliable maps and route information were nonexistent at the time, the area was not well-documented bc it was dominated by Native American tribes who probably didn't cotton to cartography by the white man.

i mean...maybe? seems like they could have invested in a reliable NA guide, that's what the Army did.

In 1883 there were a lot of railroad lines crossing those routes, so there were plenty of fairly reliable maps.

This is just the result of trying to save some money or some other production-related issue.  Or shitty plotting (or plodding).

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27 minutes ago, mchookem said:

i went looking for a map of their route as i figured surely someone had done that... didn't find one but did find this, which offers a theory for the haphazard route and apparent lack of planning...

https://screenrant.com/1883-duttons-no-plan-map-explained/

basically says reliable maps and route information were nonexistent at the time, the area was not well-documented bc it was dominated by Native American tribes who probably didn't cotton to cartography by the white man.

i mean...maybe? seems like they could have invested in a reliable NA guide, that's what the Army did. 

1180432426_tenor(8).gif.be8338550b52bf1186ee34da8afe9924.gif

also it reads like a college film class essay 😄

Yeah, that's a bunch of bullshit. By 1883, there were well-known river crossings (and ferries) crossing the Red River at Gainesville and Denison - both of which could've gotten them to Abilene, Kansas, if that was their destination. Moreover, the Texas & Pacific Railroad hooked up with the Southern Pacific around Sierra Blanca in 1881 and could've taken the Germans/Slavs/Romani directly from Fort Worth to California for a fraction of the cost to cross the continent in Conestoga wagons. Finally, the cattle trails were all very well established by then, having been used for years prior to the time depicted in the show.

I really want to like this show and will continue watching, but for a program that sells itself as historically accurate, authentic, and realistic, they've overstated how unknown the West was at that point. Hell, Captain Marcy had already blazed a trail to the West Coast from the DFW area by 1859, and he took very good notes. Robert E. Lee and Jeff Davis had even spent time out there.

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Here's their path so far:
They traveled north out of Fort Worth, maybe following the Chisolm Trail, got close to the Red River and decided it was too high to cross. They discussed heading east or west, and decided to go west toward Abilene which led them to cross the Brazos River (just north of the Clear Fork) near present-day Graham and close to the then abandoned Fort Belknap on the map below.
Then, suddenly, they're somewhere out near the 6666 Ranch and are now about to cross the Red River just north of Vernon at Doan's Crossing seemingly in a plan to follow the Western Cattle Trail without mentioning that they would've had to cross the Brazos AGAIN to get there. Why cross it in the first place if they were heading to Doan's all along?
Now, they want us to believe they were talking about Abilene, Kansas, this whole time which would be well to the east of where they're heading? Madness.


Here is a quick markup of their route so far:

b30c38c837fb1bcc53b62f7aa4267696.jpg

Crossing the Brazos the first time was stupid and pointless. They absolutely must have crossed it a second time to end up back on the north side of it, which the show never mentions.

Then while they are at Doan’s trying to hire a cook, I believe Thomas mentioned a possible resupply in Abilene. I added Abilene to the map to show how absolutely ridiculous that would be in their current location. I don’t personally buy the Abilene, KS explanation (which I think was floated by other confused fans and not the show itself) because it is directly north of Fort Worth and it would’ve been completely reasonable to travel via the Denison ferry if that was their plan all along.

I also don’t buy the explanation that everyone was directionally challenged due to poor information at the time. There were established travel routes, ferries, and maps. If they were so stupid that they left the Red River and headed back south to cross the Brazos and end up on the wrong side of it, then they really have no business going across the country in the first place.

This all might be a little more forgivable if the writer of the show wasn’t from this part of the state. He has no excuse mixing these things up this poorly and there is no reason from a plot standpoint that it needed to be this jumbled. There are plenty of ways to write the show thus far and have it make geographical sense.

These types of absurdities are what separate great TV and movies from decent TV and movies.
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13 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Hard rubber, or gutta percha. Been around since the 1830's. The first generation Colt SAA's grips were made out of it.

Maybe. looked out of place and It only caught my eye as I have been restoring a Remington Model 12 takedown .22 and getting a period correct well fitting plate has been a whip. 

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Here is a quick markup of their route so far:

b30c38c837fb1bcc53b62f7aa4267696.jpg

Crossing the Brazos the first time was stupid and pointless. They absolutely must have crossed it a second time to end up back on the north side of it, which the show never mentions.

Then while they are at Doan’s trying to hire a cook, I believe Thomas mentioned a possible resupply in Abilene. I added Abilene to the map to show how absolutely ridiculous that would be in their current location. I don’t personally buy the Abilene, KS explanation (which I think was floated by other confused fans and not the show itself) because it is directly north of Fort Worth and it would’ve been completely reasonable to travel via the Denison ferry if that was their plan all along.

I also don’t buy the explanation that everyone was directionally challenged due to poor information at the time. There were established travel routes, ferries, and maps. If they were so stupid that they left the Red River and headed back south to cross the Brazos and end up on the wrong side of it, then they really have no business going across the country in the first place.

This all might be a little more forgivable if the writer of the show wasn’t from this part of the state. He has no excuse mixing these things up this poorly and there is no reason from a plot standpoint that it needed to be this jumbled. There are plenty of ways to write the show thus far and have it make geographical sense.

These types of absurdities are what separate great TV and movies from decent TV and movies.

Agree with all. By 1883 there was plenty of railroads, established cattle trails, and Comanche were on the res, Quanah Parker having surrendered about a decade earlier. There is plenty of historical records to help the writers. It’s like they combined decades of Texas history into one story.
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On 2/1/2022 at 11:08 AM, Texzilla58 said:


Agree with all. By 1883 there was plenty of railroads, established cattle trails, and Comanche were on the res, Quanah Parker having surrendered about a decade earlier. There is plenty of historical records to help the writers. It’s like they combined decades of Texas history into one story.

On 1/31/2022 at 10:55 PM, wild_turkey said:

 


Here is a quick markup of their route so far:

b30c38c837fb1bcc53b62f7aa4267696.jpg

Crossing the Brazos the first time was stupid and pointless. They absolutely must have crossed it a second time to end up back on the north side of it, which the show never mentions.

Then while they are at Doan’s trying to hire a cook, I believe Thomas mentioned a possible resupply in Abilene. I added Abilene to the map to show how absolutely ridiculous that would be in their current location. I don’t personally buy the Abilene, KS explanation (which I think was floated by other confused fans and not the show itself) because it is directly north of Fort Worth and it would’ve been completely reasonable to travel via the Denison ferry if that was their plan all along.

I also don’t buy the explanation that everyone was directionally challenged due to poor information at the time. There were established travel routes, ferries, and maps. If they were so stupid that they left the Red River and headed back south to cross the Brazos and end up on the wrong side of it, then they really have no business going across the country in the first place.

This all might be a little more forgivable if the writer of the show wasn’t from this part of the state. He has no excuse mixing these things up this poorly and there is no reason from a plot standpoint that it needed to be this jumbled. There are plenty of ways to write the show thus far and have it make geographical sense.

These types of absurdities are what separate great TV and movies from decent TV and movies.

 

 

Reddit has their own map of route. Shows different branches of Brazos that makes more sense so their route is NW  

 

 

 

2C8FD6C8-7C18-4F9B-BFED-1FBD3013AA88.jpeg

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Reddit has their own map of route. Shows different branches of Brazos that makes more sense so their route is NW  


That map isn’t accurate from what we’ve seen in the show.

At the beginning of episode 3 (River), they are looking at a river discussing what to do. I don’t think we were told specifically which river it was, but there were some clues it was the Red. Shea wanted to go east to the Denison ferry which is on the Red. He argued that if they went west, they would have to cross the Brazos. The way it was said strongly suggested they weren’t looking at the Brazos as the conversation was happening. So the Reddit map you posted doesn’t show them going to the Red in that episode.

Secondly, at the beginning of episode 5, Elsa says in her narration they “crossed the main stem of the Brazos, just north of the Clear Fork.” The Clear Fork is that southernmost fork of the Brazos, which I highlighted in yellow below. Just north of that would be about where I added the red arrow to the Reddit map, which again, puts them going the wrong direction. The black dashed line that was originally marked on the map is not crossing the main stem of the Brazos, which is clearly contradictory to specific details provided by the show.

12807712e8f2f90fb20ba43b977526b5.jpg
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On 1/31/2022 at 7:03 PM, bolverk said:

I'm so glad they're leaving Texas now, and I won't be so bothered by the writers' geographic ineptitude.

Here's their path so far:

They traveled north out of Fort Worth, maybe following the Chisolm Trail, got close to the Red River and decided it was too high to cross. They discussed heading east or west, and decided to go west toward Abilene which led them to cross the Brazos River (just north of the Clear Fork) near present-day Graham and close to the then abandoned Fort Belknap on the map below.

Then, suddenly, they're somewhere out near the 6666 Ranch and are now about to cross the Red River just north of Vernon at Doan's Crossing seemingly in a plan to follow the Western Cattle Trail without mentioning that they would've had to cross the Brazos AGAIN to get there. Why cross it in the first place if they were heading to Doan's all along?

Now, they want us to believe they were talking about Abilene, Kansas, this whole time which would be well to the east of where they're heading? Madness.

Cattle-trails.jpg

/rant

 

I was following the map too and wondered why - if they are going west then north - they wouldn’t thread between the rivers through Texas. You can get pretty damn well all the way into the front range of Colorado through New Mexico without crossing a single one. Now going north or the shortest distance yeah, there are river crossings but with the worry and the plot line about such crossings it seems like a easy thing to avoid for at least a while. I lost interest in following the map when they failed to re-cross the brazos on their way north to doan’s crossing. I left it unresolved and suspended belief and just went along. Still some of the best television out there right now.

Edited by troph
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