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Israel-Hamas war thread


Brisketexan

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1 hour ago, statsman said:

On the college campuses, I don’t know that it’s motivated by anti-semitism as much as by training to have a default affinity for marginalized peoples. 


Gazans are poor, and have restricted mobility out, either to Israel or Egypt. Israel takes the lead in restricting and monitoring supplies into Gaza. That is one part of the equation. 
 …

I think that where you fall on this decision guides how you view the situation. 

These college and hyperactivist types are merely fucking stupid.

I get sympathizing with the long-time underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic. However, staking your flag on the side that had just committed large-scale civilian massacre is hopelessly regarded.

Thing is, I dont believe most of them are anti-semitic — that their reaction are rooted in actual hatred of Jews. Its a terrible recent state of affairs where people reflexively throw historically-extreme labels against others….but kinda ironic that they’re now charged with anti-semitism. 

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51 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

These college and hyperactivist types are merely fucking stupid.

I get sympathizing with the long-time underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic. However, staking your flag on the side that had just committed large-scale civilian massacre is hopelessly regarded.

Thing is, I dont believe most of them are anti-semitic — that their reaction are rooted in actual hatred of Jews. Its a terrible recent state of affairs where people reflexively throw historically-extreme labels against others….but kinda ironic that they’re now charged with anti-semitism. 

Good post.

On the one hand.....look, I remember being a dumbass passionate 18-20 year old.  I believed and felt things very, very deeply (for me, it was mostly "I believe I'd like to hook up with that cute gal over by that end of the bar," but I digress...)  So I very much understand how that demographic will end up sympathizing with the underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic.

And yeah, that youthful exuberance, combined with youthful dumbassery, can lead to them getting out over their skis and championing a side that just committed an unforgivable act of terrorism against innocents.  It's not that these dumbasses are anti-semitic (I'm sure that some of them are, but it's not the primary motivator for most).  It's that they find themselves so far out over their skis that they become what they claim to hate.  The irony is that same criticism can be lobbed against the overreaching Israeli state (jews are the world's underdogs...who now find themselves playing the role of the oppressor.  Not a good look).

As for young people taking extreme positions....tale as old as time, won't end anytime soon.

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6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Good post.

On the one hand.....look, I remember being a dumbass passionate 18-20 year old.  I believed and felt things very, very deeply (for me, it was mostly "I believe I'd like to hook up with that cute gal over by that end of the bar," but I digress...)  So I very much understand how that demographic will end up sympathizing with the underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic.

And yeah, that youthful exuberance, combined with youthful dumbassery, can lead to them getting out over their skis and championing a side that just committed an unforgivable act of terrorism against innocents.  It's not that these dumbasses are anti-semitic (I'm sure that some of them are, but it's not the primary motivator for most).  It's that they find themselves so far out over their skis that they become what they claim to hate.  The irony is that same criticism can be lobbed against the overreaching Israeli state (jews are the world's underdogs...who now find themselves playing the role of the oppressor.  Not a good look).

As for young people taking extreme positions....tale as old as time, won't end anytime soon.

My eldest (1/4 Jewish) and his fiancée are both very pro-Palestine and have posted their views on social media (including a hasty condemnation of Israel for the hospital bombing). It’s very difficult to approach them with constructive suggestions of moderating their perspective. 
it’s simply too raw for them I think and so I’m going to wait to see how things play out before approaching them. 
 

FWIW I’m pro-Palestinians AND pro-Israelis. 

Edited by DDD Dad
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20 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

My eldest (1/4 Jewish) and his fiancée are both very pro-Palestine and have posted their views on social media (including a hasty condemnation of Israel for the hospital bombing). It’s very difficult to approach them with constructive suggestions of moderating their perspective. 
it’s simply too raw for them I think and so I’m going to wait to see how things play out before approaching them. 
 

FWIW I’m pro-Palestinians AND pro-Israelis. 

does that explain your posting style as quasi moderater of threads or does the latter influence your real life experience?

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1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

These college and hyperactivist types are merely fucking stupid.

I get sympathizing with the long-time underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic. However, staking your flag on the side that had just committed large-scale civilian massacre is hopelessly regarded.

Thing is, I dont believe most of them are anti-semitic — that their reaction are rooted in actual hatred of Jews. Its a terrible recent state of affairs where people reflexively throw historically-extreme labels against others….but kinda ironic that they’re now charged with anti-semitism. 

Charged words like "open air prison," "genocide," "aparteid state," "anti-semitism" are huge clues that the person speaking has no idea what they are actually talking about.

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2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

These college and hyperactivist types are merely fucking stupid.

I get sympathizing with the long-time underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic. However, staking your flag on the side that had just committed large-scale civilian massacre is hopelessly regarded.

Thing is, I dont believe most of them are anti-semitic — that their reaction are rooted in actual hatred of Jews. Its a terrible recent state of affairs where people reflexively throw historically-extreme labels against others….but kinda ironic that they’re now charged with anti-semitism. 

Man, I don't know if y'all have been following, but lots of students are getting their offers rescinded at top firms for being incendiary pro-Palestine (to almost be anti-Israel).

Also, lots of donors/alumni pushing back on colleges and adminstration (namely Penn).

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This is what’s great about free speech. People are allowed to show who they are. 
 
In Weimar Germany, there were laws against anti-Semitic speech. All they accomplished was to suppress the Nazis’ display of what they believed. The laws didn’t moderate the Nazis’ views; they hid them. 

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19 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

 

Lots more info in the tweet thread.

 

I don't think we will never know what really happened...

 

Thanks for sharing and do agree that the fog of war/limitations to access to the site.
 

However, as a note, one organization appears to have just started posting for this specific event (the audio analysis) and one organization is a Palestinian NGO. 

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52 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Man, I don't know if y'all have been following, but lots of students are getting their offers rescinded at top firms for being incendiary pro-Palestine (to almost be anti-Israel).

Also, lots of donors/alumni pushing back on colleges and adminstration (namely Penn).

Lets act ignorant and brazenly inflammatory towards one of the most accomplished ethnic/religious groups in America. What could go wrong. 

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37 minutes ago, statsman said:

This is what’s great about free speech. People are allowed to show who they are. 
 
In Weimar Germany, there were laws against anti-Semitic speech. All they accomplished was to suppress the Nazis’ display of what they believed. The laws didn’t moderate the Nazis’ views; they hid them. 

Fwiw germany still has anti-hatespeech laws and criminalizes holocaust/genocide denial

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Good post.

On the one hand.....look, I remember being a dumbass passionate 18-20 year old.  I believed and felt things very, very deeply (for me, it was mostly "I believe I'd like to hook up with that cute gal over by that end of the bar," but I digress...)  So I very much understand how that demographic will end up sympathizing with the underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic.

And yeah, that youthful exuberance, combined with youthful dumbassery, can lead to them getting out over their skis and championing a side that just committed an unforgivable act of terrorism against innocents.  It's not that these dumbasses are anti-semitic (I'm sure that some of them are, but it's not the primary motivator for most).  It's that they find themselves so far out over their skis that they become what they claim to hate.  The irony is that same criticism can be lobbed against the overreaching Israeli state (jews are the world's underdogs...who now find themselves playing the role of the oppressor.  Not a good look).

As for young people taking extreme positions....tale as old as time, won't end anytime soon.

 

2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

My eldest (1/4 Jewish) and his fiancée are both very pro-Palestine and have posted their views on social media (including a hasty condemnation of Israel for the hospital bombing). It’s very difficult to approach them with constructive suggestions of moderating their perspective. 
it’s simply too raw for them I think and so I’m going to wait to see how things play out before approaching them. 
 

FWIW I’m pro-Palestinians AND pro-Israelis. 

hooboy i got into a back and forth text convo with my very passionate and exuberant niece (college senior in Texas) yesterday about it all. she's definitely in the camp of sympathizing with the 'underdogs' here, though she did admit Hamas are terrorists and need to go. i even got a rant about how she trusts random personal accounts on tiktok and reddit more than any US media or official statement from our government bc they are 'completely raw and unregulated and don't have an agenda'. i mean...wtf? 😐

i guess overall it's a positive, at least she's paying attention and wants to do something. i'm convinced the empathy, anger, and stridency of these Gen-Zers is what it's going to take to actually right our collective ship. i mean when i was 21 i was focused almost exclusively on boys and my social activities 😄😊

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3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Good post.

On the one hand.....look, I remember being a dumbass passionate 18-20 year old.  I believed and felt things very, very deeply (for me, it was mostly "I believe I'd like to hook up with that cute gal over by that end of the bar," but I digress...)  So I very much understand how that demographic will end up sympathizing with the underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic.

And yeah, that youthful exuberance, combined with youthful dumbassery, can lead to them getting out over their skis and championing a side that just committed an unforgivable act of terrorism against innocents.  It's not that these dumbasses are anti-semitic (I'm sure that some of them are, but it's not the primary motivator for most).  It's that they find themselves so far out over their skis that they become what they claim to hate.  The irony is that same criticism can be lobbed against the overreaching Israeli state (jews are the world's underdogs...who now find themselves playing the role of the oppressor.  Not a good look).

As for young people taking extreme positions....tale as old as time, won't end anytime soon.

I believed and did a lot of stupid shit as an 18-20 year old as well, but I never joined any hate groups.  And that is exactly what most of the pro-Palestinian groups on college campuses are and always have been.

I agree that many of the staunch pro-Palestinian kids on any given campus are mostly muddle-headed young folks with good intentions and still developing brains, but you can bet your ass that the student leaders of these groups are straight-up antisemitic genocidal pieces of shit, and they are methodically and purposefully steering other young people down a path of hatred.  Many years ago, I went back to school for my law degree around age 30, making me the old guy in every class.  My jaw hit the floor every time discussions of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict came up and I heard what came out of the mouths of some of my younger classmates.  It was vile, unadulterated, racism of the nastiest kind.  I have no illusions about these student groups. They're fucking evil. 

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I have a friend from college that worked in the state department. He worked out of Israel for a couple years in his mid-30s. He hasn't held a high opinion of Israel since his experience there. Some people forget that Israel has plenty crazy religious zionists that basically hold terroristic beliefs.

Edited by Schulz2.0
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12 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

I have a friend from college that worked in the state department. He worked out of Israel for a couple years in his mid-30s. He hasn't held a high opinion of Israel since his experience there. Some people forget that Israel has plenty crazy religious zionists that basically hold terroristic beliefs.

Theres crazies in every group. I think Bibi and his wife are a real nasty couple. IDF arent angels (unavoidable after decades of policing a contentious border). Mass killing of non-mil/combatants is just something else though. 

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I knew a girl who did spy stuff and married an Israeli. She became a much larger fan of Israel after she met more people from there. Really fascinating. Some people forget that some people from Israel are really nice and wouldn't hurt flies.

 

 

--- let's not get into this shit. Good people and bad people come from all over.

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34 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

I have a friend from college that worked in the state department. He worked out of Israel for a couple years in his mid-30s. He hasn't held a high opinion of Israel since his experience there. Some people forget that Israel has plenty crazy religious zionists that basically hold terroristic beliefs.

Yep.  There are people on both sides of this conflict that do not want peace.

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3 hours ago, mchookem said:

 

hooboy i got into a back and forth text convo with my very passionate and exuberant niece (college senior in Texas) yesterday about it all. she's definitely in the camp of sympathizing with the 'underdogs' here, though she did admit Hamas are terrorists and need to go. i even got a rant about how she trusts random personal accounts on tiktok and reddit more than any US media or official statement from our government bc they are 'completely raw and unregulated and don't have an agenda'. i mean...wtf? 😐

i guess overall it's a positive, at least she's paying attention and wants to do something. i'm convinced the empathy, anger, and stridency of these Gen-Zers is what it's going to take to actually right our collective ship. i mean when i was 21 i was focused almost exclusively on boys and my social activities 😄😊

Yeah, I’d much rather talk about their film career and the chance that their short film that won at Sundance and SXSW gets an Oscar nod in January. 
 

Oh and that they finally set their wedding date. 

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2 hours ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

Yea, it's the whole acting on them thing that's the problem. 

Like this guy?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

Remember that the current Israeli Minister of National Defense had a picture of him in his living room prior to going into politics and belonged to the same extremist political party before it was banned. He's part of the same far right groups that formed Netanyahu's coalition government.

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4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Fwiw germany still has anti-hatespeech laws and criminalizes holocaust/genocide denial

I think that’s a mistake on Germany’s part. They had those laws in 1972. After the Israelis were killed at the Olympics, Germany had some terrorists in jail. The Palestinians said that there would be more terror heading Germany’s way if they weren’t released. Brandt agreed with the plan to allow the Palestinians to make a bogus skyjacking of a plane filled with German police, which was then traded for the terrorists. 
 
 Lessons- Germany outlawed anti-Semitic speech, but still valued German lives over guest Israeli lives. 
 
Israel was going to be on its own seeking Justice. 
 
Better in America, where people are allowed to talk and reveal who they really are and what they believe. 

Edited by statsman
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10 minutes ago, Smax said:

We will leave once oil is no longer the world's driving force.

Go green

 

 

Where will we get our plastics, eyeglasses, deodorants, basketballs, soap, bike tires, condoms, toothbrushes, loudspeakers, spandex, polyester, aspirin, and refrigerators?

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