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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Bingo.

When you realize that the primary purpose of our incarceration system is to keep black and brown folks "in line," it all makes sense.  Our prison system has only as a tertiary or lower purpose actual "public safety."

And the feedback loop that it generates. Minorities are the vast majority of inmates, therefore minorities must be more criminal and more violent. Therefore we must give them fewer chances and longer sentences.  
 

im sure there’s a whole chapter on it in the 2nd grade CRT textbook. 

Edited by Pato del Muerto
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

While being ignorant of actual facts, I do wonder if the incarceration rate delta is driven by drug laws and punishments that are more harsh than in the rest of the world.  

I personally think it’s our American sense of “rugged individualism” run amok that is the underlying problem. Healthcare education and housing are beyond the reach of a huge part of our society even those who work multiple jobs but we just call them lazy so no security net for you just die or go bankrupt. Take homelessness, it’s a US problem far worse than other places, our solution is to tell them to get a job hippie, or jail. And yes the racial element is undeniable.

Edited by 'stache
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Posted
2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

My bit of Texas lore is that I am related to Billy Sol Estes.  

That's a dude who was born in the wrong time.  If he were alive and healthy today, he'd be governor.  

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Posted
1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Considering the US has one of the highest incarceration rates in the developed world, is it your opinion that Americans are just inherently worse people per capita than places like say Scandinavia, and that more people in jail for longer sentences is a solution?

I think that it’s undeniably true that Americans commit more crimes than Finns or Danes, and the thesis “there’s more crime because of higher incarceration rates” strikes me as “high interest in trains causes autism” type reasoning. I think I can point to countries that have extremely low crime rates while having overly harsh—cruel even (Singapore)— penal systems that I wouldn’t want to model. So you’d need to look at them as well as the friendly Nords. 

America’s general lawlessness as compared to other developed societies has been remarked on for centuries, since before we were a country.  There are likely some society-level interventions that might help that, but I am wholly unpersuaded that the focus should be incarceration rates and in a lot of ways addressing basic safety and security will be a prerequisite to success in other areas. 

Posted
28 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There are likely some society-level interventions that might help that, but I am wholly unpersuaded that the focus should be incarceration rates and in a lot of ways addressing basic safety and security will be a prerequisite to success in other areas. 

I sweatergod if you're just saying "we need more cops" I'm going to shit on your lawn.

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Posted
23 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I sweatergod if you're just saying "we need more cops" I'm going to shit on your lawn.

Probably not, most of what I’ve seen suggests an “over-policed, under-protected” set of issues.  Long term the interventions are what you’d expect: better education, better employment opportunities especially for young women, better health services across the board, and an improved and healthier physical environment. All of which I’ve argued for across this board. 
 

There’s some good evidence that in the short term, a surge of police presence to impact areas helps— IF they get out of cruisers and take a “protect people and property, don’t focus arrests” approach. Too many surges don’t do that and it usually isn’t an issue of too few overall cops.

All of which can be combined with incapacitating obstinate offenders via incarceration. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Iceman said:

As a child who was removed from their bio parents' home because of abuse, IDGAF what their past was.  They own the present as adults.

As a parent, I don't want them anywhere near kids, once it is discovered that they abuse.  That ain't to go all Salem witch trials, but he is in possession of shit he shouldn't be.  Lock him up for life.  

I don't know why you directed this at me. My message had nothing at all to say about violators punishment. It was 100% about victims of csa. My post has nothing to do with yours that I can discern.

For the record I was sexually abused as a child by a male and female couple. My sister was abused by the male of that same couple. It's taken me most of my life to work through some of those issues and that damage. I don't like to discuss it here as I've seen that sort of information be cataloged by users and brought up in later conversations as a slam point.

 

8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Downloading, looking at, trading, and creating sexual abuse material is an inherently irrational act. The ancients would correctly frame people who do it as allowing their passions to control them. Outrage and fear is a natural and healthy reaction to irrational, harmful behavior when demonstrated by others. 

CSA is irrational in the normative patterns of today's morals. The definition of sexual abuse has changes very dramatically in the last 100 years, hell, the last 20. 

There was a historical point where marrying a "woman" at the start of her productive cycle made sense. Do NOT take that to mean I'm defending, in any way, csa. Going further back csa between a male childe and man was culturally embraced (for specific groups). 

Sexual misconduct or sexual crime changes a lot based on social constructs. Less than 30 years ago homosexual acts were still widely illegal in many states. (Sadly it still is in some remote places) 

Then we get to the what is the point of a penal system. Historically, more times that not it has been used as a leverage for debtors, and a place to put "crazy" people and thieves. Of course, thieves are often debtors, but of course we no longer penalize people for being poor. (This is the sarcasm tag).

Its a very unpopular position, but factually true that the US penal system is first classist and sexist, before racist. 

I know I've wandered way off course, mostly as I had applied and intended to go to grad school for and build a career in the US criminal industrial complex. 

So I'm going to get back to the subject at hand. I'm of the believe that a criminal justice system should have 2 primary functions. First and foremost is to protect the public from crime and adjudication for people who commit crimes. Then within the penal system it should be to rehabilitate people who have committed crimes to the degree and effect that it best reduces the likelihood of recidivism. 

A system built purely for punishment is not conducive to a best functioning society. While it "feels" good, and god knows advocating for it gets votes in the US, it ultimately doesn't best serve the public good as a whole. When you also make it classist, sexist and racist it becomes extremely dysfunctional and open for extreme versions of abuse of power. All the while, the general public is less safe as criminals are more likely to become recidivist. 

Which brings me back to CSA and CP and also to broader SA, SB, and other non-consenting sex crime. (I say non-consenting as unfortunately the US criminal industrial complex is still in 3rd world mode when it comes to sex work. Also, drug addiction, but that's a different rant).

The hard truth is, predictive recidivism for sex crimes is at best difficult and in some aspects impossible. As such appropriare sentencing for them is truly a quagmire. Below is a long paper the dives into a ton of details with another shit ton of sites of other studies. Its a rabbit hole for which there is no simple answer. Making it worse is the fact that its difficult to determine success or failure of treatment methodologies for sex offenders.  I won't dive into all the details as the information in the link is far better than anything I would produce. What I will say is if you care about what's best for US citizens as a whole, all of us, addressing the issues of the criminal industrial complex is, in my firm opinion the greatest social issue facing us all. It ties into every other aspect of our issues in this country. There are no simple answers, purely emotional ones aren't and won't work, and it is used as a tool by our politicians and oligarchy overlords to further divide us, all to their own gains. So I encourage all of us, me included, to keep an open mind when discussing it with others. For all of us to continue to educate ourselves and others when possible. To try and work together to find solutions that best serve us all, including those in the criminal industrial complex.

Long, Great Paper on Sexual Recidivism

Edited by BurntEyes
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, irishtexan said:

Yes. 

Also people that conflate punishment with rehabilitation.

Also the privatization of the prison systems.

Also the school-to-prison pipeline in predominantly black, brown, and poor communities. 

Also, as a society, we strive to be as cruel as possible, and we derive joy out of others' suffering. 

We are the antithesis of Jesus' teachings. 

Gotta imagine just going by the actual writing of Jesus in the new testament, if he was actually a diety and returned to "smite the wicked", the US would be on the short list of countries to smite. 

Also, this Celina shit is about as on brand as it gets. 

Edited by Hermanator
Posted
33 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I don't know why you directed this at me. My message had nothing at all to say about violators punishment. It was 100% about victims of csa. My post has nothing to do with yours that I can discern.

For the record I was sexually abused as a child by a male and female couple. My sister was abused by the male of that same couple. It's taken me most of my life to work through some of those issues and that damage. I don't like to discuss it here as I've seen that sort of information be cataloged by users and brought up in later conversations as a slam point.

 

 

I wasn't targeting your initial post, but rather simply replying to it in conversational manner.

 

Didn't mean to make it song like an either/ or scenario.  Was just responding within the flow of what you said.

Posted

Sentencing, however, is no quagmire at all.  If proven in the court of law, lifetime sentence, no parole.

easy peasy.  No more victims.

 

Press reset, and go.

Posted
26 minutes ago, Iceman said:

Sentencing, however, is no quagmire at all.  If proven in the court of law, lifetime sentence, no parole.

easy peasy.  No more victims.

 

Press reset, and go.

For all forms and all types of sex offenders? 

Okay, I'll play devils advocate. There isn't an endless supply of prison rooms. 

Option A make the list of crimes that are no longer being charged or prosecuted for lack of space. 

State: To account for the 13% of sex criminals since we know they wont do Drug crimes the only equal option is:

Weapons, Arson, Explosives

Federal the only option to match is Firearms.

Federal Prisons

So no more state or federal arrests for any firearms violations including known murders, cartel members and other us gang members. People who like to play with fire and explosives are also free to roam about YOUR neighborhood now. 

Option B:

Permanantly close all public schools and public education k-12 in the United States of America to build prisons.

Option C

Cut all federal and state funding on roads and interstates. 

Making broad sweeping statements feels good, when you have to weigh those broad sweeping statements against logic and budget they aren't as easy to commit to. 

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