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It’s Official, They’re Moving the Alamo Cenotaph

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....and some people are piiiiiiissed.

 

San Antonio Historic Design and Review Commission Approves Moving the Alamo Cenotaph

Sanford Nowlin Dec 19, 2019 9:53 AM

  
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Let the meltdowns begin.

In a 7-4 vote, San Antonio’s Historic Design and Review Commission on Wednesday approved parts of the Alamo’s redevelopment plan, including a new placement for its Cenotaph monument — the source of much fiery rhetoricsurrounding the $450 million redevelopment.

The plans call for shifting the Cenotaph — which was erected a century after the battle of the Alamo — some 500 feet across Alamo Plaza to the location now occupied by a bandstand.
 

Activist groups, including the colorfully monikered Texas Freedom Force, have raised hell about the relocation, labeling it a blow against freedom and an erasure of the state's history. The group plans a December 27 protest at Alamo Plaza to decry the decision.

“We’ll see you in court,” one person in the meeting room shouted after the vote, according to the Rivard Report.  

The goal of the Alamo's master plan is to make the grounds a recreation of how the site looked at the time of the Battle of the Alamo and restoring a "sense of reverence" — a goal supported by historians who testified at the meeting, Texas Public Radio reports. 

“There’s nothing more scared about that site than there is about any other part of the Alamo battlefield, so there’s not really a good reason to consider not removing it,” said John L. Hittan, an Alamo historian in attendance, according to TPR. 

Meanwhile, a federal lawsuit by the Tap Pilam Coahuiltecan Nation against the Texas General Land Office and the city demands that Native Americans have a say in how the site is handled because the remains of indigenous people are buried at the site.  

The remains of three people were unearthed at the Alamo roughly a week ago during archaeological work.

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29 minutes ago, Kennythetiger said:

That's a poorly-written article.

There’s nothing more scared about that site than there is about any other part of the Alamo battlefield"

no kidding.

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1 hour ago, Doc Reeves said:

labeling it a blow against freedom and an erasure of the state's history

I'd like to hear the support for this argument, because it seems like weak sauce.

Also, I'm much more interested in HOW they are going to move it.  Get the same folks who moved the hotel back in the '80s? 

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If the Mexican Army hadn't stopped at Ripley's Believe It or Not and the wax museum, the battle would have been over much sooner.

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That Texas Freedom Force is just a bunch of idiots. They were trying to scare people into believing the powers that be were going to put a statue of Santa Anna on the Alamo grounds. I wouldn't be surprised if this was some Russian troll BS.

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A simmering dispute over planned renovations to the Alamo erupted into a war of words between two Republican elected state officials this week.

Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick joined critics of Land Commissioner George P. Bush, who is overseeing the controversial Alamo redesign plan. Patrick accused Bush of broadly labeling detractors as “liars and racists,” though Bush actually used the label for a small group of people who made false claims about his plans. Bush said Patrick twisted his words in what he labeled a “dangerous mistake.”

The back-and-forth was sparked last week by a Facebook post from the group Save The Alamo, founded by Rick Range, who lost against Bush in the Republican primary for land commissioner in 2018. The group is routinely critical of Bush, the son of the former Florida governor Jeb Bush and nephew of former Texas Governor and U.S. President George W. Bush.

In a Dec. 10 post, Range wrote that Bush intends to put up a statue of Antonio López de Santa Anna, the president who led Mexican troops against the defenders of the Alamo, outside the San Antonio battle site. The General Land Office has not released any plans or publicly indicated a desire to erect the statue.

One must ask themselves, why am I being accused of honoring the murderous dictator Santa Anna? Is it because my mother (now a naturalized citizen) is from Mexico?” Bush wrote in a tweet.

On Monday, Bush’s office sent an update on the Alamo renovation to lawmakers, with a note that there was “a small, vocal minority opposing any action affecting the Cenotaph, including repair and restoration. Unfortunately, there are members of this contingency who have used racial and derogatory words and issued threats against” Bush and a San Antonio City Council member.

The Cenotaph, also known as the Spirit of Sacrifice, is a monument, located adjacent to the fortress, commemorating those who died at the Battle of the Alamo. A plan to relocate the Cenotaph on the Alamo grounds has fueled criticism against Bush for more than a year.

The following day, Bush said on Twitter the claims were an “outright lie” and “flat out racist.” He questioned whether his Mexican heritage played a role in the accusation he would support a Mexican dictator.

“One must ask themselves, why am I being accused of honoring the murderous dictator Santa Anna? Is it because my mother (now a naturalized citizen) is from Mexico?” Bush wrote in a tweet.

On Monday, Bush’s office sent an update on the Alamo renovation to lawmakers, with a note that there was “a small, vocal minority opposing any action affecting the Cenotaph, including repair and restoration. Unfortunately, there are members of this contingency who have used racial and derogatory words and issued threats against” Bush and a San Antonio City Council member.

The Cenotaph, also known as the Spirit of Sacrifice, is a monument, located adjacent to the fortress, commemorating those who died at the Battle of the Alamo. A plan to relocate the Cenotaph on the Alamo grounds has fueled criticism against Bush for more than a year.

Patrick responded in a written statement, criticizing Bush’s office for disparaging people who disagreed with the Alamo redesign. He noted that the Texas Senate passed a bill that attempted to slow down the plan to move the Cenotaph. That bill did not pass the Texas House.

"Recently, the GLO Commissioner and a member of his staff have derided anyone who disagrees with the Alamo redesign as a small vocal minority who are liars and racists,” Patrick said. “This is offensive and inaccurate. The 31 members of the Texas Senate represent over 28 million Texans. They are not a vocal minority — nor are they liars or racists.”

Bush responded that evening and said Patrick took his statements out of context. He stressed that his comment about “racists” was directed toward those accusing him of trying to erect a statue dedicated to Santa Anna.

“To twist my words and put out a statement saying that I called Honorable State Senators and anyone who opposes me racist is wrong,” Bush said in a written statement. “It is a very dangerous mistake for an elected official with his power to make.”



https://www.texastribune.org/2019/12/18/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-and-george-p-bush-battle-over-alamo/

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5 hours ago, Longhorn Al said:

I don't have a problem with moving it.  I don't really have a problem with the entire plan.  I actually like it. 

Agree. The memorials are not part of the history of the events at the Alamo, they are for the visitors and their placement isn't critical in honoring those whose blood was shed there.

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9 hours ago, Newdoc said:

Will Ozzy know where to piss when he comes back to SA?

The last time I saw Ozzy on tv, I am not sure if he would even know if he pissed his own pants. 

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33 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Agree. The memorials are not part of the history of the events at the Alamo, they are for the visitors and their placement isn't critical in honoring those whose blood was shed there.

100% this. Moving a memorial to a battle has zero to do with the people that are being memorialized.

some started with the false argument that removing the confederate statues was somehow rewriting history. Now they’re taking that bs storyline and applying it here.  If anything removal of the confederate statues or Alamo memorial is disrespectful to the people from 1930 or 1950. But who cares about that.

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I heard that the current location is supposedly where the defenders were piled up and burned, although the exact location is not clear.  I will miss that old bandstand, though.  That thing has history, too.

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

If Dan Patrick is against it, I am for it. /noCR

Fuck Dan Patrick (not literally in the biblical sense).

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7 hours ago, Rusty Shackelford said:


And George P Bush too. I generally vote R, but will be leaving the ballot blank again if those 2 are on it.

A couple of elections ago, I really wanted Patrick to not win the nomination. I'll leave him blank, too. Hate that guy.

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20 hours ago, Newdoc said:

Will Ozzy know where to piss when he comes back to SA?

Ozzy I don't know

Why you peed on the Alamo

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If the Mexican Army hadn't stopped at Ripley's Believe It or Not and the wax museum, the battle would have been over much sooner.

Armybrat was there to talk their ears off.

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A couple of elections ago, I really wanted Patrick to not win the nomination. I'll leave him blank, too. Hate that guy.
Why not vote the other way to send a message. That's what I do no cr

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15 hours ago, miguelito said:

I heard that the current location is supposedly where the defenders were piled up and burned, although the exact location is not clear.  I will miss that old bandstand, though.  That thing has history, too.

Yep. I hate to hear they are going to take down the bandstand. Hopefully they can find a way to save it. Cool little piece of history itself. 
 

edit: just read that they are going to move it. Yay. San Antonio is smart about preserving history. I wish other Texas towns would follow their lead.   Only one remotely close is Galveston.  

Edited by Xian

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3 hours ago, Updawg said:
9 hours ago, Longhorn Al said:
A couple of elections ago, I really wanted Patrick to not win the nomination. I'll leave him blank, too. Hate that guy.

Why not vote the other way to send a message. That's what I do no cr

I can't bring myself to go that far.

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22 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Fuck Dan Patrick (not literally in the biblical sense).

 

20 hours ago, Rusty Shackelford said:


And George P Bush too. I generally vote R, but will be leaving the ballot blank again if those 2 are on it.

Who is Abbott supporting? Anyone know where the governor stands on this?

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21 hours ago, Xian said:

Yep. I hate to hear they are going to take down the bandstand. Hopefully they can find a way to save it. Cool little piece of history itself. 
 

edit: just read that they are going to move it. Yay. San Antonio is smart about preserving history. I wish other Texas towns would follow their lead.   Only one remotely close is Galveston.  

And Jefferson, because that is all they have. 

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The City of San Antonio and the powers to be have approved moving the Alamo Cenotaph 500 yards to the south as part of a project to restore, fix and clean it up (Phase One of the massive redevelopment of Alamo Plaza). I think it'll look better on the other end of Alamo Plaza. 

'This is Texas Freedom Force' has vowed to use force to prevent this from happening. Lot of ins and outs here, including Texas Republican officials going after George P Bush by claiming he's putting a statue of Santa Anna as part of Alamo renovations. The same group is also claiming the cenotaph will be removed forever, like confederate monuments. 

Very good 45 min talk about the issue below.

https://www.tpr.org/post/what-history-behind-alamo-cenotaph-why-it-so-controversial-today

 

spacer.png

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I was reading that the most strident bellicose guy from the "don't move the Cenotaph!!!" crew was from New York.  It's always these damn carpetbaggers trying to out Texan the Texans.  

Can't wait to see this project finished.  Moving the Cenotaph a few yards is going to make absolutely zero difference.

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On 1/2/2020 at 11:28 AM, Chad Fuck said:

Can't wait to see this project finished.  Moving the Cenotaph a few yards is going to make absolutely zero difference.

I really don't get the complaints. The cenotaph was a piece of shit installed in the 1940's (that's over 100 years after the battle), in an incorrect spot, is historically inaccurate. I really can't find out why they are fighting so hard for it to stay where it is.

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On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 11:28 AM, Chad Fuck said:

I was reading that the most strident bellicose guy from the "don't move the Cenotaph!!!" crew was from New York.  It's always these damn carpetbaggers trying to out Texan the Texans.  

Can't wait to see this project finished.  Moving the Cenotaph a few yards is going to make absolutely zero difference.

Is his name Liucci?

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1 hour ago, El Diablo said:

Is his name Liucci?

Not sure about his last name.  Someone called him "Robert" but he said, "Goddamit, my name's BILLY!"

 

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7 hours ago, relapse98 said:

I really don't get the complaints. The cenotaph was a piece of shit installed in the 1940's (that's over 100 years after the battle), in an incorrect spot, is historically inaccurate. I really can't find out why they are fighting so hard for it to stay where it is.

Personally I think it's fugly and wouldn't shed a tear if they smashed it to bits with artillery, Taliban-style. San Antonio usually does a pretty good job with shit like that but they dropped the ball with that thing.

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If you really want to rile up the hoopleheads, suggest removing the hump-shaped parapet off the chapel building. After all, it wasn't there during the battle. So many of those idiots have it in their head that Davy Crockett was up there at the top of that hump with his long rifle, picking off Mezkins a half-mile off.

In fact, this is close to what it looked like in 1836:

0318-AlamoHump-drawing.jpg?auto=compress 

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Yeah, that rounded hump was added when the US Army renovated the old empty church in the 1850s with a new roof to convert it into a storage depot.

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