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Uncle Ben's is easy. Just pay for a tie-in with Spider-Man. I will start buying it myself if they hire Marisa Tomei to sell it.

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Uncle Ben was supposedly a real person, but I get how the uncle part is insensitive. What i don't get is the logo. There is no depiction of an older african american male that could have been made in the 1940's that would not be called racist today. Yet it would have also been racist for there to be no depictions of african americans in american advertising culture.

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19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And if there's one thing we should all agree on, it's that our racist stereotypes used to sell consumer products should at least be historically accurate, amirite?

I mean if you are gonna go racist, go all the way.

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

I think everyone has one of those Tios and they are best caricatured as wearing jorts, a Dallas Cowboys shirt and a Cowboys cap worn backwards. Usually they are standing next to the pit holding their 15th Budweiser and yelling at someone instructions on how to fix the problem with a truck's 02 sensor then end the advice with a "pinche joto" then proceed with talking about their latest fishing trip to Corpus.

 

I have a Hispanic friend and old roommate from Corpus who always sarcastically said “Go Cowboys” when I’d order a bud heavy at a bar. So I like this.

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

I think everyone has one of those Tios and they are best caricatured as wearing jorts, a Dallas Cowboys shirt and a Cowboys cap worn backwards. Usually they are standing next to the pit holding their 15th Budweiser and yelling at someone instructions on how to fix the problem with a truck's 02 sensor then end the advice with a "pinche joto" then proceed with talking about their latest fishing trip to Corpus.

 

I have a Mexican friend from Corpus and we always says “Go Cowboys” if one of us gets a Bud Heavy at the bar. So this hits close to home.

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1 hour ago, HRSchenker said:

How crazy would it be if Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben are gone while the Gorton Fisherman and Cracker Jack are still around? Someone's going to call that white supremacy in 3, 2, 1....

Do you even Chef Boyardee bro?

Chef Boyardee-licious & Easy Recipes – Frugal Novice

Trivia: The brand was created by Ettore Boiardi, who arrived in the US from Italy at the age of 16. So, a real person as opposed to a marketing creation but his name became 'Americanized.'

 

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

I think everyone has one of those Tios and they are best caricatured as wearing jorts, a Dallas Cowboys shirt and a Cowboys cap worn backwards. Usually they are standing next to the pit holding their 15th Budweiser and yelling at someone instructions on how to fix the problem with a truck's 02 sensor then end the advice with a "pinche joto" then proceed with talking about their latest fishing trip to Corpus.

 

Verdad.

18 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

I have a Hispanic friend and old roommate from Corpus who always sarcastically said “Go Cowboys” when I’d order a bud heavy at a bar. So I like this.

Have some family friends, also a mexican family.  One Easter, did the day out at their ranch.  A dozen mexican women hanging out at the picnic tables, gabbing.  And a dozen mexican men, standing around the smoker, drinking beer, eating meat directly off the grill with a tortilla, pissing behind the shed.  One of the guys shows up with a Bud heavy, and the patriarch immediately says "what are you drinking that shit for?  Man, that's wetback beer."  I damn near spit out my meelers lite.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Uncle Ben was supposedly a real person, but I get how the uncle part is insensitive. What i don't get is the logo. There is no depiction of an older african american male that could have been made in the 1940's that would not be called racist today. Yet it would have also been racist for there to be no depictions of african americans in american advertising culture.

You can just use real people instead of racist stereotypes. I don't get why this is hard to understand. If there's a real person behind the artwork and you have it done faithfully by a legit artist and not cartoonish then it'll be fine. 

Although I'm for abolishing all human depictions in logos no matter the race. 

Edited by Wanker Bob

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Just now, Wanker Bob said:

You can just use real people instead of racist stereotypes. I don't get why this is hard to understand. If there's a real person behind the artwork and you have it done faithfully by a legit artist and not cartoonish then it'll be fine. 

Damn right.  And nobody better mess with my Al Jolson's Chocolate Pudding!

bs-ed-jolson-letter-20150726

 

Yeah, man.....sorry....but even if the model is a real person, if the CHARACTER they are playing is a racist stereotype, that's a no-go. 

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17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Damn right.  And nobody better mess with my Al Jolson's Chocolate Pudding!

bs-ed-jolson-letter-20150726

 

Yeah, man.....sorry....but even if the model is a real person, if the CHARACTER they are playing is a racist stereotype, that's a no-go. 

Well I meant real black people. Depicted accurately as themselves. Not caricatures

No one is complaining about the Jordan Jumpman logo. And if Nike made a shoe with LeBron's face on it no one would complain either. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

You can just use real people instead of racist stereotypes. I don't get why this is hard to understand. If there's a real person behind the artwork and you have it done faithfully by a legit artist and not cartoonish then it'll be fine. 

Although I'm for abolishing all human depictions in logos no matter the race. 

What about Colonel Sanders? Or Orville Redenbacher?

Edited by WhatTheBuck

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3 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

You can just use real people instead of racist stereotypes. I don't get why this is hard to understand. If there's a real person behind the artwork and you have it done faithfully by a legit artist and not cartoonish then it'll be fine. 

Although I'm for abolishing all human depictions in logos no matter the race. 

They did use a real person for Uncle Ben's rice. You sure have a lot of opinion for someone who doesn't know much.

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12 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

What about Colonel Sanders? Or Orville Redenbacher?

Again, based directly on not only real people but accurate depictions of the creator of the product. So no problem really...

But I'm for getting rid of it all. 

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4 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

They did use a real person for Uncle Ben's rice. You sure have a lot of opinion for someone who doesn't know much.

The Uncle Ben's one isn't inherently racist like Aunt Jemima. It's an accurate depiction. The problem is the "Uncle" name conjures a "Song of the South" connotation and it's an old brand so getting caught up in the wash. 

If it had the same logo it does today and was called "Grandpa Ben's" there's probably no problem. Especially if it was a depiction of the creator of the brand like KFC and Redenbacher. 

And insults aren't necessary. You should be better than that. It wasn't even a good one. 

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1 minute ago, Wanker Bob said:

The Uncle Ben's one isn't inherently racist like Aunt Jemima. It's an accurate depiction. The problem is the "Uncle" name conjures a "Song of the South" connotation and it's an old brand so getting caught up in the wash. 

If it had the same logo it does today and was called "Grandpa Ben's" there's probably no problem. Especially if it was a depiction of the creator of the brand like KFC and Redenbacher. 

And insults aren't necessary. You should be better than that. It wasn't even a good one. 

You quoted me basically saying the same thing you said just now, so I assumed you were talking about my confusion about how the Uncle Ben logo is racist when you said that bit about racist stereotype caricatures. I guess you could have just been speaking in general.

Here's an old advertisement. Other than the uncle part in the name of the product, I don't see how anybody could claim it is racist.

spacer.png

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I ran across this Business Insider article while looking for something else:

https://www.businessinsider.com/15-racist-brand-mascots-and-logos-2014-6?op=1#funny-face-drink-mix-1964-1965-13

It lists some of the recent removals plus some older rebrandings. The one for Pillsbury's Funny Face drink (to compete with Kool-Aid) was (no pun) in your face with it:

Funny Face cherry

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5 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I ran across this Business Insider article while looking for something else:

https://www.businessinsider.com/15-racist-brand-mascots-and-logos-2014-6?op=1#funny-face-drink-mix-1964-1965-13

It lists some of the recent removals plus some older rebrandings. The one for Pillsbury's Funny Face drink (to compete with Kool-Aid) was (no pun) in your face with it:

Funny Face cherry

 

22 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

You quoted me basically saying the same thing you said just now, so I assumed you were talking about my confusion about how the Uncle Ben logo is racist when you said that bit about racist stereotype caricatures. I guess you could have just been speaking in general.

Here's an old advertisement. Other than the uncle part in the name of the product, I don't see how anybody could claim it is racist.

spacer.png

I think we're thinking the same thing. In my previous post I was specifically referring to the logo itself and not the brand name. You could have the most positive honest amazing depiction of an African American as a logo but if you give it a racist name then it's going to get an uproar. 

I don't know for certain but I do believe that exact logo tied to a non racist name would be perfectly fine. At least it should be. 

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7 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I ran across this Business Insider article while looking for something else:

https://www.businessinsider.com/15-racist-brand-mascots-and-logos-2014-6?op=1#funny-face-drink-mix-1964-1965-13

It lists some of the recent removals plus some older rebrandings. The one for Pillsbury's Funny Face drink (to compete with Kool-Aid) was (no pun) in your face with it:

Funny Face cherry

Holy shit. Please tell me that had to be World war II era or very shortly after. 

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35 minutes ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

Holy shit, is the Ice Cream Truck Song racist. 

 

Yep. I read that article when it came out in 2014. I still have it bookmarked. Our parents, grandparents, and great grandparents grew up in a world where there was so much more racism in popular media than there is today and we still have work to do. 

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2 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

Holy shit. Please tell me that had to be World war II era or very shortly after. 

1960's. I remember watching the commercials.

 

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On 6/18/2020 at 8:18 AM, Enchubben said:

#defundwhitechocolate is coming up next.  Kraft to start dying marshmallow different shades. LuckyCharms to remove red haired leprechaun.  Rice Krispies to add a diversity elf to the box.   We are going to defeat racism in the pantry!!!

Oh and yea I probably eat breakfast that involves syrup 3-4 times year, but you bet your bippy i'm using real maple syrup and not that maple flavored crap. 

seemingly everyone hates white chocolate and marshmallows contain no marsh mallow so need to be renamed anyway

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1 hour ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

Holy shit, is the Ice Cream Truck Song racist. 

 

 

Ho Ree Shit. That's... well... pretty damn racist. I've heard some racist stuff in the past.... but yeah. 

NSFW (obviously).

Deon Cole is funny.... but the song start at 5:36.

 

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28 minutes ago, elfenix said:

seemingly everyone hates white chocolate and marshmallows contain no marsh mallow so need to be renamed anyway

These are pretty good:

b1cxxvea6wrovn4amtge.png

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5 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

 

Ho Ree Shit. That's... well... pretty damn racist. I've heard some racist stuff in the past.... but yeah. 

NSFW (obviously).

Deon Cole is funny.... but the song start at 5:36.

 

That's not 100% accurate. Turkey in the Straw was written in the 1830's. There were many songs based on that melody. One I remember is I Had a Little Chicken. "Nagger Love a Watermelon, Ha! Ha! Ha!" is just one of them.

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10 minutes ago, RPM said:

That's not 100% accurate. Turkey in the Straw was written in the 1830's. There were many songs based on that melody. One I remember is I Had a Little Chicken. "Nagger Love a Watermelon, Ha! Ha! Ha!" is just one of them.

The NPR article in the link discusses this and points out that this tune was popularized by minstrel shows.  Minstrel music was commonly played ice cream parlors. When ice cream trucks came along, they tried to evoke the parlor environment by playing this minstrel music on their music boxes.   So yes, “Turkey in the Straw” is an old tune, but it’s thoroughly contaminated by later use.  

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1 hour ago, RPM said:

1960's. I remember watching the commercials.

 

Injun faced Orange! Goooooooooooooooood damn

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2 hours ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

Holy shit, is the Ice Cream Truck Song racist. 

 

ho.lee.shit. that is like exaracist

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32 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

ho.lee.shit. that is like exaracist

Yep.  Glad our local ice cream truck plays the Super Mario Bro’s. theme now.  

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I've heard them play The Entertainer (the theme song to the movie The Sting). That works pretty well. 

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Posted (edited)

I don't think anybody alive aside from scholars thinks of "N----R Love A Watermelon" when that song is played. It is either remembered as "Turkey in the Straw" or "the ice cream truck song." If it has to go, so be it, but it's a classic case of digging up a rotting corpse and airing it out just because some music historian knows some history he wants to show off.

I am 50, lived in Texas or Tennessee most of my life, and have Southern ancestors going back to Jamestown and this is literally the first I've heard of this. No racist kids (or their parents or grandparents) I knew anywhere ever smirked about what that song "really meant" or any of that shit. This canceling seems gratuitous, but again, who gives a shit, really. 

Same melody was used for Tennessee Pride sausage when I was a kid: "Foooorrrr real country sausage, the best you ever tried, pick up a pounder two o' Tennessee Pride...."

Re watermelons, I just discovered days ago that they originated in the Congo region. American white people have taken what should be a source of pride for black people -- a melon their ancestors cultivated and delivered to the world -- and turned it into a hateful stereotype. 

Edited by MaybeACoordinator

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

The NPR article in the link discusses this and points out that this tune was popularized by minstrel shows.  Minstrel music was commonly played ice cream parlors. When ice cream trucks came along, they tried to evoke the parlor environment by playing this minstrel music on their music boxes.   So yes, “Turkey in the Straw” is an old tune, but it’s thoroughly contaminated by later use.  

I am hugely troubled by tainting a song as racist due to its performance or popularity in a minstrel show.

Minstrel shows are horrible.  But they were a or the dominant form of popular musical performance for decades.  They are a racist VENUE, or form of performance.  Not everything they touched becomes racist.

If they made the 1812 Overture popular at minstrel shows, you can't trash Tchaikovsky.  I'm sure there's an actual example of something like that.

The music and the venue are conceptually separable and independent, unless they are connected, as by racist lyrics as in Nigra Love A Watermelon.

Stephen Fucking Foster's music was popular at minstrel shows, but by most reckoning, that with any racial content was sympathetic to and exposed the plight of slaves.

Go drill that ol devil in the ass somewhere else.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I don't think anybody alive aside from scholars thinks of "N----R Love A Watermelon" when that song is played. It is either remembered as "Turkey in the Straw" or "the ice cream truck song." If it has to go, so be it, but it's a classic case of digging up a rotting corpse and airing it out just because some music historian knows some history he wants to show off.

I am 50, lived in Texas or Tennessee most of my life, and have Southern ancestors going back to Jamestown and this is literally the first I've heard of this. No racist kids (or their parents or grandparents) I knew anywhere ever smirked about what that song "really meant" or any of that shit. This canceling seems gratuitous, but again, who gives a shit, really. 

Same melody was used for Tennessee Pride sausage when I was a kid: "Foooorrrr real country sausage, the best you ever tried, pick up a pounder two o' Tennessee Pride...."

Re watermelons, I just discovered days ago that they originated in the Congo region. American white people have taken what should be a source of pride for black people -- a melon their ancestors cultivated and delivered to the world -- and turned it into a hateful stereotype. 

Okra is African in origin, as well.  Collard and Mustard Greens grow natively in the US, but were a key part of African cuisine.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

If they made the 1812 Overture popular at minstrel shows, you can't trash Tchaikovsky.  I'm sure there's an actual example of something like that.

Wagner in Israel. Wagner was a massive anti-Semite and overall terrible person, but it’s the connection of his music with Nazi Germany that causes such an intense response. This is despite Wagner being dead for about 40 years by the time the Nazis came to power.

Wagner was even performed during the first performances of the Palestine Orchestra (the orchestra later became the Israel Philharmonic and was made up of Jewish musicians fleeing Europe) in the mid 30s, so his open anti-Semitism wasn’t a deal-breaker at first, until the connection with the Nazis was clear. Even performing his purely instrumental music causes a major controversy in the country.

Honestly, considering everything, it seems like a fair response.

Edited by Mole

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9 minutes ago, Mole said:

Wagner in Israel. Wagner was a massive anti-Semite and overall terrible person, but it’s the connection of his music with Nazi Germany that causes such an intense response. This is despite Wagner being dead for about 40 years by the time the Nazis came to power.

Wagner was even performed during the first performances of the Palestine Orchestra (the orchestra later became the Israel Philharmonic and was made up of Jewish musicians fleeing Europe) in the mid 30s, so his open anti-Semitism wasn’t a deal-breaker at first, until the connection with the Nazis was clear. Even performing his purely instrumental music causes a major controversy in the country.

Honestly, considering everything, it seems like a fair response.

To the extent it's based on Wagner's adoption by Hitler as a favorite composer, long after his death, I would say that's pretty wrongheaded.

The situation gets muddled by Wagner himself being a fanatical antisemite.

I was speaking, however, of some famous song or composer that found popularity during minstrel shows, but is otherwise not racist.  Stephen Fucking Foster might be one.

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@TwiceHorn  

Point of order.  It’s “Stephen Stinking Foster” that prompts Doc’s retort of “Frederick Fucking Chopin.”   You may go now.  

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

@TwiceHorn  

Point of order.  It’s “Stephen Stinking Foster” that prompts Doc’s retort of “Frederick Fucking Chopin.”   You may go now.  

Fair point.

It seems that I have only memorized Doc's lines, in addition to not yet having begun to defile myself.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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And, finally, I stumbled upon my whole problem with The Eyes of Texas.  Or the articulation of it.

The things we've discussed here on this thread have racist or racial SYMBOLISM.  Meaning that they are  Invested "with a meaning or by expressing the invisible or intangible by means of visible or sensuous representations."  That is, although perhaps not a literal meaning, the symbols have become imbued with a meaning usually through their appearance.

When you have to go digging around in historical tomes to find non-literal meanings, or having arguments about the significance of the tomes as to the non-literal meanings, the non-literal meaning of that symbol -- its symbolism -- is weak to nonexistent.  Its impact, positive or negative, comes immediately upon recognition of the symbol.

The confederate flag, the swastika, ethnic caricatures, all have instant symbolic racist meaning.  The Eyes of Texas does not.

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

To the extent it's based on Wagner's adoption by Hitler as a favorite composer, long after his death, I would say that's pretty wrongheaded.

The situation gets muddled by Wagner himself being a fanatical antisemite.

I was speaking, however, of some famous song or composer that found popularity during minstrel shows, but is otherwise not racist.  Stephen Fucking Foster might be one.

Regarding the Wagner situation, a number of notable conductors and performers have tried to reintroduce his music in Israel, but it leads to pretty intense pushback. It’s an understandably emotional issue. It’s not the perfect analogy to what’s happening here by any means, but it can give us a different perspective. 

And yes, Stephen Foster will be an interesting case. I also wonder how far down the minstrel song rabbit hole we’ll go. If we start canceling everything associated, no matter how tenuous the connection, it will be a great loss to our shared American culture. Some things can’t or shouldn’t be redeemed though.

This is all the more reason to deal with the cases in front of us, such as the Eyes, thoughtfully and carefully. Neither dismissing the idea out of hand nor dropping the song without careful consideration will be helpful in the long term. 

If push comes to shove, I don’t find dropping the song entirely unreasonable, but I’m hopeful that a positive compromise resolution can be found to reclaim the song. 

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Just now, Mole said:

Regarding the Wagner situation, a number of notable conductors and performers have tried to reintroduce his music in Israel, but it leads to pretty intense pushback. It’s an understandably emotional issue. It’s not the perfect analogy to what’s happening here by any means, but it can give us a different perspective. 

And yes, Stephen Foster will be an interesting case. I also wonder how far down the minstrel song rabbit hole we’ll go. If we start canceling everything associated, no matter how tenuous the connection, it will be a great loss to our shared American culture. Some things can’t or shouldn’t be redeemed though.

This is all the more reason to deal with the cases in front of us, such as the Eyes, thoughtfully and carefully. Neither dismissing the idea out of hand nor dropping the song without careful consideration will be helpful in the long term. 

If push comes to shove, I don’t find dropping the song entirely unreasonable, but I’m hopeful that a positive compromise resolution can be found to reclaim the song. 

The other thing is that Israel is not really imposing a minority will on a majority. 

I am aware that this is a situation where a majority imposing its will on an oppressed minority is unjust.

But that's not really the situation in Israel.

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10 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

You quoted me basically saying the same thing you said just now, so I assumed you were talking about my confusion about how the Uncle Ben logo is racist when you said that bit about racist stereotype caricatures. I guess you could have just been speaking in general.

Here's an old advertisement. Other than the uncle part in the name of the product, I don't see how anybody could claim it is racist.

spacer.png

This picture is the new, revamped one Mars put out in 2007 when they “promoted” Ben to “Chairman of the Company.”

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3 minutes ago, Pancho said:

This picture is the new, revamped one Mars put out in 2007 when they “promoted” Ben to “Chairman of the Company.”

Looks like they used Robert Guillaume as the model.  Dead ringer for Benson with gray hair.

guillaume.jpg

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Okra is African in origin, as well.  Collard and Mustard Greens grow natively in the US, but were a key part of African cuisine.

The history of how white people took hold of watermelons and turned what should be a point of pride into an albatross of shame.

 

Edited by MaybeACoordinator

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

And, finally, I stumbled upon my whole problem with The Eyes of Texas.  Or the articulation of it.

The things we've discussed here on this thread have racist or racial SYMBOLISM.  Meaning that they are  Invested "with a meaning or by expressing the invisible or intangible by means of visible or sensuous representations."  That is, although perhaps not a literal meaning, the symbols have become imbued with a meaning usually through their appearance.

When you have to go digging around in historical tomes to find non-literal meanings, or having arguments about the significance of the tomes as to the non-literal meanings, the non-literal meaning of that symbol -- its symbolism -- is weak to nonexistent.  Its impact, positive or negative, comes immediately upon recognition of the symbol.

The confederate flag, the swastika, ethnic caricatures, all have instant symbolic racist meaning.  The Eyes of Texas does not.

That may have true a week or so ago, but it's heavily laden with racist baggage for all of us now after having learned the history of its origin.

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1 hour ago, Pancho said:

This picture is the new, revamped one Mars put out in 2007 when they “promoted” Ben to “Chairman of the Company.”

I guess I just assumed based on the style of the artwork that it was much older. Regardless, I still stand by my stance that there is no depiction of an older black man that could have been made in the 40's that would not be seen as racist now. If you can think of one by all means share it, and I'm not trying to be condescending if this sentence comes off this way. I have no problem admitting that the "uncle" part of the brand carries some hefty baggage that I was unaware of, but I am really having trouble seeing how the logo is itself racist.

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11 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I guess I just assumed based on the style of the artwork that it was much older. Regardless, I still stand by my stance that there is no depiction of an older black man that could have been made in the 40's that would not be seen as racist now. If you can think of one by all means share it, and I'm not trying to be condescending if this sentence comes off this way. I have no problem admitting that the "uncle" part of the brand carries some hefty baggage that I was unaware of, but I am really having trouble seeing how the logo is itself racist.

20324418%5D&call=url%5Bfile:product.chai

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The history of how white people took hold of watermelons and turned what should be a point of pride into an albatross of shame.
 

For the record, I have never and will never look at watermelon as a badge of shame, no matter how hard racist whites tried to make it so.

As a child of Texas summers who knows the glory of a cold slice on a hot day, and a half Mexican who thinks agua fresca de sandia is the most refreshing drink in the history of the world, watermelon is a gift to humanity.

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