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Pancho

Did the 9/11 attacks lead us to where we are today?

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10 minutes ago, Lobo said:

One does have to admit one curious detail about the 11 September attacks.  4 swarthy middle eastern men casually learning to fly in busybody San Diego and Eastern Florida and not one racist, elderly white person said a fucking word? Then they're each joined by 4 fellow Muslim bunkmates each, and not one eyebrow is raised?  Meanwhile, anybody browner than Jake Busey so much as goes for a jog in those two parts of the country, they're shot to death.  19 years later, I've read a whopping 2 reliable articles about how law enforcement finally admitted they heard some chatter for neighbors but never looked into it.  That aspect of the story to me, has always been questionable bullshit. 

Where the fuck was Karen when we needed her?!

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13 minutes ago, Lobo said:

One does have to admit one curious detail about the 11 September attacks.  4 swarthy middle eastern men casually learning to fly in busybody San Diego and Eastern Florida and not one racist, elderly white person said a fucking word? Then they're each joined by 4 fellow Muslim bunkmates each, and not one eyebrow is raised?  Meanwhile, anybody browner than Jake Busey so much as goes for a jog in those two parts of the country, they're shot to death.  19 years later, I've read a whopping 2 reliable articles about how law enforcement finally admitted they heard some chatter for neighbors but never looked into it.  That aspect of the story to me, has always been questionable bullshit. 

I was a teenager when the Cole was attacked and 9/11 took place, fully aware of terrorism abroad but never thinking that it could happen in our country. Was that on any given citizen's radar back then? The only terrorism in US that I had memorable exposure to at that point was of the domestic variety, too young to remember the WTC bombing. 

Regardless, we didn't need a busy body citizen to be operating under "see something, say something" conditions - the FBI was onto the hijackers. It took a monumental breakdown in communication and cooperation in our intelligence community for the hijackers to slip through the cracks. 

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I didn't think that people should have seen them as terrorists.  But, as stated above, We've always had "Karens" that were always looking to poke their nose in people's business.  It's just still hard for me to believe that for months on end, "new to the country" middle easterners were aggressively asking to be trained on serious equipment.  On top of that, they'd leave home and come back home for months on end to attend flight school and their neighbors just thought, "Big planes, huh?  Welp!  See ya later!"  It's still insane to me 19 years later that nobody raised an eyebrow.  

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1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

There is something to be said about the US government/media repeatedly covering up stuff and distorting the truth that helps facilitate the attraction towards conspiracy theories by the population.  

I believe this, but also feel the tension between the need for secrecy and the need for transparency.

I do not need to know troop movements or the agenda for this week's meeting with the UN security council or the like, no matter how much I might want to know that or think that I have a "God given right as an 'Merican!". Policy and practice requires discretion and confidentiality.

But like everything else, our filter on how to interpret that is bent. Our team needs to be able to be trusted to use discretion and confidentiality; Their team is trying to hide something so they can continue the swampy deep state pantaverate

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43 minutes ago, Goredho said:

 

Where the fuck was Karen when we needed her?!

She was Becky doing tequila body shots off her boyfriend and bitching that NSYNC was about to break up

Edited by Surly Bevo

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2 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

The internet got us here.  Blame Al Gore.  When you give the stupids a never ending positive feedback loop for their stupidity, you're fucked.  

Now add in the factor that Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/Pinterest actively us AI to engage you with conspiracy theories because you like them, and then find other people who might like the same conspiracy theories and get these people to connect, 

Not to mention the fact that your "newsfeed" is wholly unique from someone else's newsfeed. You are presented with a different unique reality that every other single person on the planet. A reality that is a dopamine feedback loop to keep you coming back for more. 

People are living in different realities today with different sets of facts. If people can't agree on any universal truths, you can't solve any issues. 

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1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Now add in the factor that Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/Pinterest actively us AI to engage you with conspiracy theories because you like them, and then find other people who might like the same conspiracy theories and get these people to connect, 

Not to mention the fact that your "newsfeed" is wholly unique from someone else's newsfeed. You are presented with a different unique reality that every other single person on the planet. A reality that is a dopamine feedback loop to keep you coming back for more. 

People are living in different realities today with different sets of facts. If people can't agree on any universal truths, you can't solve any issues. 

Bingo.  And this is why social media should be heavily regulated.  If it were up to me, I would dismantle it entirely, but that won't happen.

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4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Bingo.  And this is why social media should be heavily regulated.  If it were up to me, I would dismantle it entirely, but that won't happen.

I actually love the democratization social media brings to the table but profit motive corrupts it more than anything.  I’m not as keen on regulation as I once was but the big tech companies do need to be broken up. Power and money is way too concentrated in these spaces.  

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I believe we would be where we are today, albeit 9/11 accelerated everything. Bush Senior was already using surveillance on telephone logs and 9/11 just opened the door wider. Lot of young people today are apathetic to the issue of privacy to the point of 'what's the use?'

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29 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Bingo.  And this is why social media should be heavily regulated.  If it were up to me, I would dismantle it entirely, but that won't happen.

If Surly were shuttered I would get work done. We can't have that.

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8 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

If Surly were shuttered I would get work done. We can't have that.

Same, but I would also drink more so it's a wash for me.

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8 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

If Surly were shuttered I would get work done. We can't have that.

I don't consider the Surl social media.  I'm specifically talking about Facebook and Twitter.  Don't worry, I don't want to get work done either.

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Yeah, I've never really considered Surly to be a social media platform.  Maybe it's wishful thinking because I pride myself on not having any social media presence, apart from a work-mandated linkedin account that I barely use.  But I would have to contend that even with clever handles, 95% of social media---by definition---uses the person's real name, no?  That's the whole idea...isn't it?  To have that insta photo or facebook status update or pithy tweet...all come back to the actual real human being who pushed it out to begin with?  

We share really personal stuff on Surly, good, bad, ugly, and indifferent...but you don't really 100% know it's Dwayne from Austin or some lurker-turned-poster from Bangladesh.  That's kinda why I like it.  It's a place to vent in the purest sense.  Even a therapist knows some of the same people you do...but Surly remains largely anonymous.  I mean...shit, I'm apparently some Mexican associate vice president at a mystery bank.  Or am i?  

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2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Bingo.  And this is why social media should be heavily regulated.  If it were up to me, I would dismantle it entirely, but that won't happen.

I agree. Social Media needs to be heavily regulated. There’s a reason you can’t show certain ads on Saturday morning cartoons. Regulation. Paper, TV all have loads of regulation for good reasons. Society recognizes the benefit of not allowing QAnon stories presented as legitimate news. In the old days, those stories would be next to the Bat Boy story in the fake tabloids. 

2 hours ago, SimonBolivar said:

If Surly were shuttered I would get work done. We can't have that.

Surly isn’t social media. Surly doesn’t have AI and algorithms specifically designed to get you to keep coming back to Surly, other than  South Austin’s mom? The most fucked up thing to realize is that social media is not media. The goal of social media is not deliver information or data to you the consumer. You are not a consumer. You are a product. The goal of social media is to deliver your attention to advertisers. Social media is not a product, your attention is the product, ie you are the product being sold to advertisers. They don’t give a shit about truth. 

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1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

I agree. Social Media needs to be heavily regulated. There’s a reason you can’t show certain ads on Saturday morning cartoons. Regulation. Paper, TV all have loads of regulation for good reasons. Society recognizes the benefit of not allowing QAnon stories presented as legitimate news. In the old days, those stories would be next to the Bat Boy story in the fake tabloids. 

Surly isn’t social media. Surly doesn’t have AI and algorithms specifically designed to get you to keep coming back to Surly, other than  South Austin’s mom? The most fucked up thing to realize is that social media is not media. The goal of social media is not deliver information or data to you the consumer. You are not a consumer. You are a product. The goal of social media is to deliver your attention to advertisers. Social media is not a product, your attention is the product, ie you are the product being sold to advertisers. They don’t give a shit about truth. 

Well said. Hear hear!

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7 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

back in the early late 90s, early aughts, i used to regularly get baked and surf conspiracy websites like http://www.abovetopsecret.com/

it used to be fun to see wacky people's theories about lizard people or aliens. click on that link now and it's basically all right wing propaganda. not so much fun anymore. also, i haven't smoked pot in years. maybe i need to do something about that.

Well, at least we've identified one of your problems..

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3 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I believe we would be where we are today, albeit 9/11 accelerated everything. Bush Senior was already using surveillance on telephone logs and 9/11 just opened the door wider. Lot of young people today are apathetic to the issue of privacy to the point of 'what's the use?'

Yep. I’m 27 and all my friends could give a fuck about the patriot act which drives me fucking nuts. Shit I went over to a friends house and was talking about this guy that sold me weed then a second later my friend was like “hey Alexa, turn on that lamp!” Thanks, dude. You just bugged your own fucking house. 

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13 hours ago, Fletch said:

Yep. I’m 27 and all my friends could give a fuck about the patriot act which drives me fucking nuts. Shit I went over to a friends house and was talking about this guy that sold me weed then a second later my friend was like “hey Alexa, turn on that lamp!” Thanks, dude. You just bugged your own fucking house. 

Does your friend own his home or rent? Because I can see trouble on the horizon if he's renting. (He may already have the Alexa, but this is a new feature that is explained in the article.) Time will tell how it's employed.

 

Edited by Mrs Whiggins

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13 hours ago, Fletch said:

Yep. I’m 27 and all my friends could give a fuck about the patriot act which drives me fucking nuts. Shit I went over to a friends house and was talking about this guy that sold me weed then a second later my friend was like “hey Alexa, turn on that lamp!” Thanks, dude. You just bugged your own fucking house. 

 

Fair enough, but if you are walking around with a smart phone you've already bugged yourself.

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23 hours ago, Lobo said:

We were always going to end up here. 

Yeah I mean the very largest amount of credit one could afford to 9/11 is that it accelerated an already existing cycle of where we'd end up. Really it started with the reaction against the Civil Rights movement, took another step with Nixon's "Southern strategy," took a much larger step under Reagan, then the militia movements of the 90's against Clinton, THEN we can say 9/11 had an impact...but even then, we can't really say Trump and Trumpism was inevitable. That shit was largely a toddler-kicking-and-screaming-like-a-little-bitch reaction that the underbelly of white America had against two terms of Obama. And I suspect it'll continue because those people have been very loudly exposed. The only thing worse than a toddler-kicking-and-screaming-like-a-little-bitch is a toddler-kicking-and-screaming-like-a-little-bitch who has been told by the people he hates that he's a toddler-kicking-and-screaming-like-a-little-bitch. 

Edited by hpslugga

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19 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I actually love the democratization social media brings to the table but profit motive corrupts it more than anything.  I’m not as keen on regulation as I once was but the big tech companies do need to be broken up. Power and money is way too concentrated in these spaces.  

Sacha Baron Cohen already pretty much nailed it.

 

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4 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Does your friend own his home or rent? Because I can see trouble on the horizon if he's renting. (He may already have the Alexa, but this is a new feature that is explained in the article.) Time will tell how it's employed.

 

Rent. Thanks for the link. Interesting and terrifying shit

4 hours ago, Tom said:

 

Fair enough, but if you are walking around with a smart phone you've already bugged yourself.

Yeah I know. I’m pretty close to giving up as well.  1984 was a fucking fairytale apparently 

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1 hour ago, Fletch said:

Rent. Thanks for the link. Interesting and terrifying shit

Yeah I know. I’m pretty close to giving up as well.  1984 was a fucking fairytale apparently 

The very act of communicating has to go old school, except you can't take your phone with you to meet someone (trackable), can't write a letter or email, can't meet in person when there's cameras everywhere or Karens (they're both fairly effective discouragers), can't call, can't ring the doorbell (Ring Network videos are viewed by police) and so on. We think we're different from China, but our freedoms are somewhat ephemeral in reality aren't they?

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Awesome!!! I get to go all Tony Soprano and meet my friends in the backyard. And call them from “an outside line”!!!

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6 minutes ago, Fletch said:

Awesome!!! I get to go all Tony Soprano and meet my friends in the backyard. And call them from “an outside line”!!!

Also be fun to stage a "Sinner Man" scene (minus the bowler hats and briefcases) like they did in the Thomas Crowne Affair with Pierce Brosnan.

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On 9/11/2020 at 10:36 AM, Pancho said:

Twitter is full of conspiracy theories surrounding building 7.

When clicking on those accounts (out of curiosity), they have the same Q bullshit as well as a bunch of other shit.  #AllBuildingsMatter is also trending.  

It's fucking 9/11, and it should be a day of remembrance for all Americans, regardless of race, political leaning, etc. 

If 9/11 didn't happen, would we be where we are with the current chaos in this country today or would it have happened regardless?

Bush was ready to go forward with immigration reform and the republicans in Congress would have been on board. Then 911 happened and he was the perfect mark for Cheney and co to take advantage of a o yeah I think the US would look much different now
 

But we still would have wound up w twitter and Facebook so who knows

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6 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Does your friend own his home or rent? Because I can see trouble on the horizon if he's renting. (He may already have the Alexa, but this is a new feature that is explained in the article.) Time will tell how it's employed.

 

Sounds like a shitty Sharon Stone/Baldwin Bro movie. 

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On 9/11/2020 at 2:57 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I actually love the democratization social media brings to the table but profit motive corrupts it more than anything.  I’m not as keen on regulation as I once was but the big tech companies do need to be broken up. Power and money is way too concentrated in these spaces.  

We have never come to terms with the simple fact that capitalism inevitably leads to monopolies. We are already there and nobody seems to acknowledge that. 

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Facebook has monopolized social media. Google has monopolized search. Amazon has monopolized distribution of online goods although Walmart is still a potential viable competitor But is relying on its current domination of non online stores.. Apple has monopolized hardware although I guess it’s not quite complete yet. And Microsoft has monopolized software, although I guess there are still a few WordPerfect holdouts like me, but it’s tough and I pay for it.

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3 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Facebook has monopolized social media. Google has monopolized search. Amazon has monopolized distribution of online goods although Walmart is still a potential viable competitor But is relying on its current domination of non online stores.. Apple has monopolized hardware although I guess it’s not quite complete yet. And Microsoft has monopolized software, although I guess there are still a few WordPerfect holdouts like me, but it’s tough and I pay for it.

This is an ignorant take and tells on you.

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On 9/11/2020 at 11:41 AM, Neonmoon said:

People are living in different realities today with different sets of facts.

If people can't agree on any universal truths, you can't solve any issues. 

A big issue to me as reconciliation looms.

Media silos create polarization -- and that tradecraft is quite bad for people. Polarization requires a heavy pull to unstick. Covid should have brought less polarization, but since it is a political season - well, . . . trump bet on Mr. Pillow and went to war against experts in public health. 

I think we should be hoping for reconciliation - quickly after this election. People have to start finding common ground again. The alternative is unthinkable.

Peace.

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8 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

We have never come to terms with the simple fact that capitalism inevitably leads to monopolies. We are already there and nobody seems to acknowledge that. 

Capitalism doesn't, corrupt gov't does.  The larger gov't is, the easier it is for that to happen  Legislative bodies allowing themselves to be bought by the highest bidder is the culprit........ comrade....

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35 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

#2

 

 

I mean it's as obvious as the tin foil on ones head....... Aliens did it...

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On 9/11/2020 at 1:25 PM, Mrs Whiggins said:

Same, but I would also drink more so it's a wash for me.

Wait.Surly gets you to drink less??! Shit I've been doing this wrong for the last 5 years...

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One does have to admit one curious detail about the 11 September attacks.  4 swarthy middle eastern men casually learning to fly in busybody San Diego and Eastern Florida and not one racist, elderly white person said a fucking word? Then they're each joined by 4 fellow Muslim bunkmates each, and not one eyebrow is raised?  Meanwhile, anybody browner than Jake Busey so much as goes for a jog in those two parts of the country, they're shot to death.  19 years later, I've read a whopping 2 reliable articles about how law enforcement finally admitted they heard some chatter for neighbors but never looked into it.  That aspect of the story to me, has always been questionable bullshit. 

We were too busy shitting on blacks back then to be bothered by middle easterners.

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mpu


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