Origins of the Global Pandemic

[Anastasis 23191]

NIH funding comes with audit and accountability requirements.*

Pointing to the axing of unaccountable bureaucrats in Beijing is simply a deflection.

 

* Is suppose to come with. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Anastasis

[Sawbonz 26736]

On 8/14/2021 at 10:17 PM, F250 said:

some of y'all have been online all day accomplishing absolutely nothing other than getting fat and raising your blood pressure.

New motto?

[pyrohornIII 4743]

On 8/16/2021 at 9:45 PM, mchookem said:

i keep seeing references to us not providing proper oversight...am i misremembering or did the Trump admin remove the 'observer' or whatever that position was over in the Wuhan province? had that position been there forever, or did Obama create it? 

i mean, it seems like the story was that Obama put that position in place specifically to watch out for The Next Big Thing so we could get ahead of it and Trump elminated the position because Obama. 

 i swear i remember it being pointed out at the beginning of this thing...or do i? 🤔 what other oversight are we talking about...did we have people actually in labs over there?? and did they just crap out on the job?

 

And pulled us and funding out of WHO too. 

[Willfully Horn 7820]

On 8/14/2021 at 7:25 PM, Onboard 2.0 said:

The wet markets are just an inhuman way to treat animals.

A statement that leaves so much unsaid. Much of the silence asks: “Really?” 

Buying seafood that is still alive makes for a better tasting seafood dish. If you’re selling flesh that tastes best fresh, you’re likely crossways with the sensibility I inferred from the quote.

Maybe I’m missing something. Bats and pangolins and baskets of grasshoppers, or something. I’m missing something.

I am compelled to point out that folks who buy no meat have scant influence in how flesh foods are treated, and also that while we can seek out and pay for flesh that lived an idyllic life and died a Grandin death, it is a luxury. 

Death isn’t pretty. But, I’ve got these canine teeth, and the resolve to use them as intended.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Edit

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Willfully Horn said:

A statement that leaves so much unsaid. Much of the silence asks: “Really?” 

Buying seafood that is still alive makes for a better tasting seafood dish. If you’re selling flesh that tastes best fresh, you’re likely crossways with the sensibility I inferred from the quote.

Maybe I’m missing something. Bats and pangolins and baskets of grasshoppers, or something. I’m missing something.

I am compelled to point out that folks who buy no meat have scant influence in how flesh foods are treated, and also that while we can seek out and pay for flesh that lived an idyllic life and died a Grandin death, it is a luxury. 

Death isn’t pretty. But, I’ve got these canine teeth, and the resolve to use them as intended.

 

 

Yeah death is a bitch.

How they keep the animals stored in tall stacks with fluids passing thru thru levels of stacked cages. Feces from animals above falling onto animals below.  

Boiling dogs alive  to create allegedly better flavors , torturing animals before killing them to create an allegedly better flavor. 

Our practices with veal aren't much better. Modern farming creates horrible living conditions for livestock so yeah we aren't much better in our practices.

It's no coincidence however that we've seen 3 of the last world virus pandemics start in China, and they all seem to Ben relayed to how livestock is kept and processed.

[Willfully Horn 7820]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah death is a bitch.

How they keep the animals stored in tall stacks with fluids passing thru thru levels of stacked cages. Feces from animals above falling onto animals below.  

Boiling dogs alive  to create allegedly better flavors , torturing animals before killing them to create an allegedly better flavor. 

Our practices with veal aren't much better. Modern farming creates horrible living conditions for livestock so yeah we aren't much better in our practices.

It's no coincidence however that we've seen 3 of the last world virus pandemics start in China, and they all seem to Ben relayed to how livestock is kept and processed.

As I’m not knowledgeable enough (and thank God, boiled dogs?) to speak to your points, I’ll defer to your condemnation, give thanks to live in a less populous country, and say the word: regulation.
 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Willfully Horn

[DigglerontheHoof 20450]

Boiling dogs alive?  Are you fist-fucking kidding me? 

[Mole 4265]

I’ll admit to knowing very little about the wet markets until sometime last year. I had heard the term but given them little thought.

There are obviously unsanitary conditions and unsavory practices associated with them, but if you had told me five years ago about a market where you can buy fish so fresh that they’re still swimming, I would have thought that pretty great.

That is to say, I get why they’re bad, but I get why people love them.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

24 minutes ago, Mole said:

I’ll admit to knowing very little about the wet markets until sometime last year. I had heard the term but given them little thought.

There are obviously unsanitary conditions and unsavory practices associated with them, but if you had told me five years ago about a market where you can buy fish so fresh that they’re still swimming, I would have thought that pretty great.

That is to say, I get why they’re bad, but I get why people love them.

Yeah, they're pretty disgusting breeding grounds for all kinds of shit,  Swine flu, Avian flu, Covid (if you believe that one).

[Neonmoon 38126]

10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

NIH funding comes with audit and accountability requirements.*

Pointing to the axing of unaccountable bureaucrats in Beijing is simply a deflection.

 

* Is suppose to come with. 

You really don’t think having people on the ground in China would have helped? 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

You really don’t think having people on the ground in China would have helped? 

No.

[Anastasis 23191]

14 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

You really don’t think having people on the ground in China would have helped? 

Was part of that person's job monitoring the research activities at WIV?  Having regular required audits of the activities at WIV being supported by US taxpayers would have helped. To the extent that corners were cut on that oversight, heads should roll. That buck stops right at the NIH, but if you want to throw the CDC under the bus as well, I am inclined to go along with it. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Anastasis

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Was part of that person's job monitoring the research activities at WIV?  Having regular required audits of the activities at WIV being supported by US taxpayers would have helped. To the extent that corners were cut on that oversight, heads should roll. That buck stops right at the NIH, but if you want to throw the CDC under the bus as well, I am inclined to go along with it. 

It would not have mattered at all. China, is a mafia regime that lies to anyone and everyone.

[Underdog 27966]

3 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Boiling dogs alive?  Are you fist-fucking kidding me? 

HBO had a show moons ago about other cultures and the food they eat, had dogs in cages and showed cats getting knocked in the head/stunned and thrown in pot of boiling water to make skinning easier. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

47 minutes ago, Underdog said:

HBO had a show moons ago about other cultures and the food they eat, had dogs in cages and showed cats getting knocked in the head/stunned and thrown in pot of boiling water to make skinning easier. 

And our Agra business practices aren't much more humane I must admit.  

Full disclaimer... they were just cats though.....  I kid I kid........

[Gatorubet 29396]

It would not have mattered at all. China, is a mafia regime that lies to anyone and everyone.

Unlike our WMD, Gulf of Tonkin incident honest selves?

[wildcat09 28387]

When this thread was started I was smart enough not to read it.  I've apparently become much stupider in the past ten days, but not one-tenth of one percent as stupid as OP. Jesus christ. 

[Neonmoon 38126]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Was part of that person's job monitoring the research activities at WIV?  Having regular required audits of the activities at WIV being supported by US taxpayers would have helped. To the extent that corners were cut on that oversight, heads should roll. That buck stops right at the NIH, but if you want to throw the CDC under the bus as well, I am inclined to go along with it. 

I mean, I think we can agree that both is better. Eliminating CDC positions in China before covid was a disaster just like not having any oversight at WIH was a disaster. There’s enough blame for everyone 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I mean, I think we can agree that both is better. Eliminating CDC positions in China before covid was a disaster just like not having any oversight at WIH was a disaster. There’s enough blame for everyone 

They don't let you see what they don't want you to see.  I think that was evidenced by the hard hitting post pandemic investigation.  We may have seen the earlier warning signs for sure, but what were we going to do with that intel ?   

I remember reading about the satellite images of hospital parking lots in Wuhan, and surrounding cities, starting to be abnormally full almost a full year before the pandemic broke out world wide.  We didn't seem to put that together till a post analysis.

Having eyes on the ground would have for sure been better than being blind however, so point taken.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

22 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Unlike our WMD, Gulf of Tonkin incident honest selves?

Not saying we haven't engaged in that kind of state craft as well.  There isn't a nation out there that hasn't.  I'd say we operate more in the international community better than China does by many miles.  

Do you think we as a nation would have hidden the pandemic if it had started here ?  Do you think we could have even been able to in our open society ?

[Willfully Horn 7820]

12 hours ago, Anastasis said:

but if you want to throw the CDC under the bus as well, I am inclined to go along with it. 

I don’t follow your logic. Here’s what informs my understanding:

Quote

Several months before the coronavirus pandemic began, the Trump administration eliminated a key American public health position in Beijing intended to help detect disease outbreaks in China, Reuters has learned.

The American disease expert, a medical epidemiologist embedded in China's disease control agency, left her post in July, according to four sources with knowledge of the issue. The first cases of the new coronavirus may have emerged as early as November, and as cases exploded, the Trump administration in February chastised China for censoring information about the outbreak and keeping U.S. experts from entering the country to help.

“It was heartbreaking to watch,” said Bao-Ping Zhu, a Chinese American who served in that role, which was funded by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, between 2007 and 2011. “If someone had been there, public health officials and governments across the world could have moved much faster.”

It’s tough to see how this puts the CDC under the bus. Maybe you’re referring to funding. The CDC didn’t pull itself off the job.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN21910S

Edited August 25, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Edit

[Anastasis 23191]

1 hour ago, Willfully Horn said:

I don’t follow your logic.

Here is an outline of my thought process.

1. We know that the NIH funded the collection of bat specimens by WIV researchers, and specifically funded collection from one particular series of caves in a region in another part of the country. The evidence suggests that these particular caves are a ripe environment for SARS-CoV-2 specifically to develop (closest viral relative came from that cave, overlapping ranges of different bat species, mixed infection copy-choice error, etc. has been discussed in detail on other threads).  Those specimens from Yunnan were transferred to WIV for further study.

2. We know that the Chinese government and the WIV have obfuscated, dissembled, lied, and been anything other than transparent about the early outbreak, and the research activities at the WIV.

3. A potential source (imo, the most likely source) for the human outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 in 2019 was an accidental lab leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.  It connects all the dots as they are known today. 

4. The NIH has the ultimate responsibility to ensure that research funded by US taxpayers is conducted with the appropriate amount of oversight, transparency, and safety protocols in place.  It does not appear that meaningful and necessary oversight over EcoHealth nor WIV, at a level corresponding to the risky nature of the research being conducted, was carried out by the NIH. (Note that this goes far beyond the NIH, as one of the largest government financial sponsors of EcoHealth was the DOD, but that is another matter.)

5. I don't think that one CDC official officing out of Beijing and running a training program was going to be a difference maker in preventing this outbreak.*  At best, they maybe buy us time measured in days to weeks in early detection once the cat is already out of the bag and you have community transmission. 

6. IMO, primary focus should be on cleaning up the NIH oversight of risky research conducted with US taxpayer dollars. If you want to have a discussion about CDC resources as well, fine, but that is secondary imo in the context of this particular discussion.

 

* This view is echoed in the article that you linked by former 20 year career CDC employee:  

One disease expert told Reuters he was skeptical that the U.S. resident adviser would have been able to get earlier or better information to the Trump administration, given the Chinese government’s suppression of information.

“In the end, based on circumstances in China, it probably wouldn’t have made a big difference,” Scott McNabb, who was a CDC epidemiologist for 20 years and is now a research professor at Emory University. “The problem was how the Chinese handled it. What should have changed was the Chinese should have acknowledged it earlier and didn’t.”

Edited August 25, 2021 by Anastasis

[Bevo 13418]

11 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

When this thread was started I was smart enough not to read it.  I've apparently become much stupider in the past ten days, but not one-tenth of one percent as stupid as OP. Jesus christ. 

more stupid

Edited August 25, 2021 by Bevo

[bolverk 28887]

13 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Here is an outline of my thought process.

1. We know that the NIH funded the collection of bat specimens by WIV researchers, and specifically funded collection from one particular series of caves in a region in another part of the country. The evidence suggests that these particular caves are a ripe environment for SARS-CoV-2 specifically to develop (closest viral relative came from that cave, overlapping ranges of different bat species, mixed infection copy-choice error, etc. has been discussed in detail on other threads).  Those specimens from Yunnan were transferred to WIV for further study.

2. We know that the Chinese government and the WIV have obfuscated, dissembled, lied, and been anything other than transparent about the early outbreak, and the research activities at the WIV.

3. A potential source (imo, the most likely source) for the human outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 in 2019 was an accidental lab leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.  It connects all the dots as they are known today. 

4. The NIH has the ultimate responsibility to ensure that research funded by US taxpayers is conducted with the appropriate amount of oversight, transparency, and safety protocols in place.  It does not appear that meaningful and necessary oversight over EcoHealth nor WIV, at a level corresponding to the risky nature of the research being conducted, was carried out by the NIH. (Note that this goes far beyond the NIH, as one of the largest government financial sponsors of EcoHealth was the DOD, but that is another matter.)

5. I don't think that one CDC official officing out of Beijing and running a training program was going to be a difference maker in preventing this outbreak.*  At best, they maybe buy us time measured in days to weeks in early detection once the cat is already out of the bag and you have community transmission. 

6. IMO, primary focus should be on cleaning up the NIH oversight of risky research conducted with US taxpayer dollars. If you want to have a discussion about CDC resources as well, fine, but that is secondary imo in the context of this particular discussion.

 

* This view is echoed in the article that you linked by former 20 year career CDC employee:  

One disease expert told Reuters he was skeptical that the U.S. resident adviser would have been able to get earlier or better information to the Trump administration, given the Chinese government’s suppression of information.

“In the end, based on circumstances in China, it probably wouldn’t have made a big difference,” Scott McNabb, who was a CDC epidemiologist for 20 years and is now a research professor at Emory University. “The problem was how the Chinese handled it. What should have changed was the Chinese should have acknowledged it earlier and didn’t.”

I'm open to either theory as both the wet market outbreak and the lab leak both make theoretical sense to this layman, given what we know at the moment. Not sure if you saw this last month, but this series of maps of the Wuhan area show the very first few cases and they do seem more clustered around the market than the lab.

 

[Anastasis 23191]

49 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I'm open to either theory as both the wet market outbreak and the lab leak both make theoretical sense to this layman, given what we know at the moment. Not sure if you saw this last month, but this series of maps of the Wuhan area show the very first few cases and they do seem more clustered around the market than the lab.

I don’t think that we will ever get a definitive answer. Apparently the IC assessment has been delivered to Biden and they do not make a conclusive determination.
 

I lean lab leak, with an early super spreader event  centered around the market.  This entire discussion could of course be put to rest with some transparency from the Chinese government, but they keep right on doing their thing.  

From that npr piece, an important consideration:

Now, of course, all the data presented to support Worobey's hypothesis comes with caveats — big caveats. The Chinese government tightly controlled and managed the information coming from China, especially information concerning the early days of the pandemic. The reported COVID-19 cases in December 2019 are only a small fraction of the actual number circulating in Wuhan at the time. The government refuses to release the raw data for patients in 2019 or allow researchers to search for even earlier cases through analyses of blood bank samples or epidemiological interviews.

 

[bolverk 28887]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I don’t think that we will ever get a definitive answer. Apparently the IC assessment has been delivered to Biden and they do not make a conclusive determination.
 

I lean lab leak, with an early super spreader event  centered around the market.  This entire discussion could of course be put to rest with some transparency from the Chinese government, but they keep right on doing their thing.  

From that npr piece, an important consideration:

Now, of course, all the data presented to support Worobey's hypothesis comes with caveats — big caveats. The Chinese government tightly controlled and managed the information coming from China, especially information concerning the early days of the pandemic. The reported COVID-19 cases in December 2019 are only a small fraction of the actual number circulating in Wuhan at the time. The government refuses to release the raw data for patients in 2019 or allow researchers to search for even earlier cases through analyses of blood bank samples or epidemiological interviews.

Well understood and do agree that we'll likely not get a conclusive answer in our lifetimes, and I also don't discount the possibility that a lab worker could've spread it from the market. We just don't have all the data points, which could very well be by design.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 hours ago, Bevo said:

more stupid

Oh he for damn sure is both, more stupid, and more stoopider, and an arrogant dick head to boot. Avatar definitely checks out with him.

[Anastasis 23191]

On 8/24/2021 at 10:29 PM, Anastasis said:

Apparently the IC assessment has been delivered to Biden and they do not make a conclusive determination.

 

One component of the IC takes on moderate confidence of lab leak, multiple others stake low confidence of natural spillover. I try to consider what actual value the intelligence community brings to the table, but it is really hard to pin point with more than low confidence. Except for the infringements of the constitutional rights of law abiding American citizens.  That shit can be assessed with fairly high confidence. 

https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Unclassified-Summary-of-Assessment-on-COVID-19-Origins.pdf

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Anastasis

[Incredulity 11141]

On 8/24/2021 at 6:51 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

And our Agra business practices aren't much more humane I must admit.  

Full disclaimer... they were just cats though.....  I kid I kid........

This is dead wrong.  

[Anastasis 23191]

Francis Collins resigns from NIH.

 

 

 

 

[Anastasis 23191]

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

I don’t see the problem.  Like they’d lie or something ??!

[Captainant 26861]

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

But when Florida does it, that's FREEDUM amirite?

[Anastasis 23191]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

But when Florida does it, that's FREEDUM amirite?

Are you oxygen deprived? 

[Gatorubet 29396]

Are you oxygen deprived? 

You sound like you are protecting the State Media of Florida.

[babysdaddy 2708]

But when Florida does it, that's FREEDUM amirite?

Says the guy that pushed Chinese propaganda by forcing the mods to change the title of a thread. You fell for and spread propaganda by the Chinese communist party. Congrats.

[Smax 3799]

Anyone else bothered that there has been no talk about boycotting the Olympics? Doesn't feel right that china is going to benefit from this

[atomheartbevo 88751]

20 minutes ago, Smax said:

Anyone else bothered that there has been no talk about boycotting the Olympics? Doesn't feel right that china is going to benefit from this

Do Olympic boycotts actually do anything though?  Other than punish the athletes?  I'd much rather prefer boycotts that actually do them harm such as economic.

The best way to handle the Olympics is to go in there and kick their asses.

[Incredulity 11141]

Yes.

but Kyrsten dresses funny and Joe won’t roll over so my fefe’s totes hurt./SurlyLeftist

[Neonmoon 38126]

The Olympics allowing Russian athletes to compete after state sponsored cheating made the Olympics a joke. I don’t buy the “it’s punishes the athletes” excuse. Tough shit. You’re country cheated.

[TwiceHorn 30716]

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

The Olympics allowing Russian athletes to compete after state sponsored cheating made the Olympics a joke. I don’t buy the “it’s punishes the athletes” excuse. Tough shit. You’re country cheated.

Different situation. 2022 Olympics are in Beijing.  We would be boycotting, hurting our blameless athletes, while making only a very minor and symbolic dent in China's benefit.

Edited January 14, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Smax 3799]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Different situation. 2022 Olympics are in Beijing.  We would be boycotting, hurting our blameless athletes, while making only a very minor and symbolic dent in China's benefit.

 

 

If it was just the US yes kind of pointless but if the us, gb, france, canada and germany boycotted it could cause significant financial loss to china and it would be an embarrassment.

But no lets all go celebrate and pour millions or billions of dollars into the country that caused this pandemic...

 

[Anastasis 23191]

Thought this bump was going to be about the unredacted emails.  I guess not.