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2020 Democratic Nominee

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9409

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So, the choice is 1) don't get elected, but hey, you've got your principles, or 2) get elected, but be a pussy who just takes it?

Let's presume that's correct.  I'm still going with option 2, which is incrementally better, AND because I have a shot at working with the people in the cabinet etc on NOT being such spineless pussies.  Also, there's a corollary strategy: eliminate the fucking GOP from being able to block shit.  Encircle them, and destroy every last one of them in every race -- statehouse races, House races, Senate races.  Go after all of them.

I'm not understanding where this "unelectable" thing is coming from when we have dotard as president. We literally went down this road last time and guess what, the bland/vanilla/establishment candidate lost.

 

I can certainly appreciate the maneuvering by all the centrist candidates to push Biden up and put a dent in what Bernie is trying to do. It's just curious to me that such political savvy is never on display when it's time to actually beat a republican.

Edited by Pam Cummings
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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 103148

Posted
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4 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

I'm not understanding where this "unelectable" thing is coming from when we have dotard as president. We literally went down this road last time and guess what, the bland/vanilla/establishment candidate lost.

 

I can certainly appreciate the maneuvering by all the centrist candidates to push Biden up and put a dent in what Bernie is trying to do. It's just curious to me that such political savvy is never on display when it's time to actually beat a republican.

I'm not saying Bernie is unelectable.

The primary voters are.  By not electing him.  What Bernie supporters still aren't getting (and in all fairness, this happens to some degree with ANY candidate who has any passionate supporters) is that a lot of folks do not share your beliefs and do not share your enthusiasm for your favored candidate.  Maybe 30% of democratic voters love Bernie more than they ever loved any candidate before and ever will again -- he's their perfect candidate, and there can never be anyone better.  That's great.  But if 70% of democratic voters don't share your passion, and prefer someone else - even with a lackluster preference - your candidate will lose. 

How could Bernie lose, I love him SO much?  How could Warren lose, I love her SO much?  How could Pete lose, I love him SO much?  etc. etc. through all of history.  The answer is "because not enough people shared your opinion."

Oh, and Hillary didn't lose just because she was a the bland/establishment candidate -- she lost for SO many reasons: shitty campaign (skipped important states), huge negatives both because of sustained historical attacks on her, and because she's not really likeable, some degree of misogyny among voters, foreign interference/propaganda, voter disenfranchisement in certain areas, etc.  Some of those concerns will exist for the next candidate, many will not.  To hold her up as proof that "establishment candidates can't win" is not statistically valid.

As to your criticism of the dems' lack of savvy when it comes time to beat a Republican....I share your concerns.

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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15225

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4 minutes ago, G650 said:

Yeah I just saw that update. That's aggressive, and according to Silver on Twitter they actually dialed it down a bit.

Yeah, but it's right.  I've been saying that for three days, now--this thing is over.  Barring something absolutely catastrophic that we can't foresee, there is no way Sanders can get a majority of delegates based on the demographics of the states yet to come and the fact that there aren't any caucuses.

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8637

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42 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I'm starting to be terrified at the prospect of either Bernie or Biden debating the dotard.  I think Pete might be the only one that could really do it well.  Maybe Kamala.  But it takes a special kind of patience and a game plan to debate that hot tub of goo.  I feel like Biden will just get frustrated and Bernie will just keep repeating his same old schtick over and over instead of rebutting.  I hope I'm wrong.

Now this was years ago, but I thought Biden crushed Paul Ryan in the debates. 

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G650

G650 13063

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1 minute ago, Ghost of LL said:

Yeah, but it's right.  I've been saying that for three days, now--this thing is over.  Barring something absolutely catastrophic that we can't foresee, there is no way Sanders can get a majority of delegates based on the demographics of the states yet to come and the fact that there aren't any caucuses.

Oh, I don't disagree. Biden will take FL and if he gets MI it's all over but the crying.

 

There is one caucus left though.

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 19824

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For me the biggest turning point here regarding Biden and Bernie is not that Joe just won the most delegates on Super Tuesday. It's that HE was the candidate who generated high voter turnout. 

This has been Bernie's pitch the entire primary. That he's the only one that can generate excitement and high voter turnout. Understandably, I think a lot of people agreed with that. But 18 states into the primary, it just hasn't been true.

The main argument for Bernie's electability is now an argument for Joe Biden. Crazy. 

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gmr548

gmr548 16253

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I'm starting to be terrified at the prospect of either Bernie or Biden debating the dotard.  I think Pete might be the only one that could really do it well.  Maybe Kamala.  But it takes a special kind of patience and a game plan to debate that hot tub of goo.  I feel like Biden will just get frustrated and Bernie will just keep repeating his same old schtick over and over instead of rebutting.  I hope I'm wrong.

It really doesn't. The public decisively considered Hillary Clinton the winner of all three debates.

They just don't matter that much.
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Chooky

Chooky 13277

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52 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I'm starting to be terrified at the prospect of either Bernie or Biden debating the dotard.  I think Pete might be the only one that could really do it well.  Maybe Kamala.  But it takes a special kind of patience and a game plan to debate that hot tub of goo.  I feel like Biden will just get frustrated and Bernie will just keep repeating his same old schtick over and over instead of rebutting.  I hope I'm wrong.

One of the aspects of Biden that's unnerving is that he's confidently dumb, like Trump, and he seems to have created an insular circle of people who won't or can't tell him how clumsy he is and how easy it is to avoid.  Like, "hey, Joe, if you lack any level of common knowledge on a particular issue, avoid that issue.  Don't initiate it.  For instance, if you don't know the Declaration of Independence, don't announce that you will now recite the Declaration knowing that you are about to fail to do that."  

Biden's blemish when he began his campaign was his age.  "Is he too old and out of touch with the populist, millennial wave that's surging on the left?"  And yet several months later not a single person in his camp had enough sway to tell him that "NO MALARKEY" was a comedic disaster with layers of irony for a campaign slogan.  Joe Biden has probably inadvertently created that environment for himself because he's defensive and spoiled.  He's very minimal on political talent and it appears that dissent or confronting him on his weaknesses is a one way ticket out of his staff.  You don't tell Joe.  Joe tells you.  Women like to be fondled and caressed in casual conversation while their husband stands right next to them.  FACT!  Men like it even more.  FACT!   

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Chuckie Finster

Chuckie Finster 22253

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51 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I'm starting to be terrified at the prospect of either Bernie or Biden debating the dotard.  I think Pete might be the only one that could really do it well.  Maybe Kamala.  But it takes a special kind of patience and a game plan to debate that hot tub of goo.  I feel like Biden will just get frustrated and Bernie will just keep repeating his same old schtick over and over instead of rebutting.  I hope I'm wrong.

I've made this point before, but I really think there's something to this.

What was Trump's attack against Hillary?  She's crooked, she should be in jail, etc.  She was not likable enough to combat that narrative, so even though she "won" the debates, she never changed the stigma surrounding her.

Trump is already telegraphing where he wants to go with Biden, and it's his mental faculties.  Even Joe's rivals would admit that he's likable.  He's empathetic.  He reminds people of their grandfather.  He's the exact kind of target that will make Trump look like a bully, and Trump will not be capable of threading the needle without being outright mean.  I absolutely understand that his loyal followers will still cheer him on, but I think others will respond to the attacks on Biden in a way they never did for Hillary.  And for those (somehow) still in the middle, he will win no new friends.

It's not logical.  It's a terrible way to choose a leader.  But we are emotional, dumb, stupid creatures and I think Grandpa Joe will come out of the debates more favorably than most people anticipate.

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G650

G650 13063

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1 minute ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I've made this point before, but I really think there's something to this.

What was Trump's attack against Hillary?  She's crooked, she should be in jail, etc.  She was not likable enough to combat that narrative, so even though she "won" the debates, she never changed the stigma surrounding her.

Trump is already telegraphing where he wants to go with Biden, and it's his mental faculties.  Even Joe's rivals would admit that he's likable.  He's empathetic.  He reminds people of their grandfather.  He's the exact kind of target that will make Trump look like a bully, and Trump will not be capable of threading the needle without being outright mean.  I absolutely understand that his loyal followers will still cheer him on, but I think others will respond to the attacks on Biden in a way they never did for Hillary.  And for those (somehow) still in the middle, he will win no new friends.

It's not logical.  It's a terrible way to choose a leader.  But we are emotional, dumb, stupid creatures and I think Grandpa Joe will come out of the debates more favorably than most people anticipate.

100% this. I don't think people grasp that Joe's bumbling is a feature at this point and not a bug.

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11141

Posted
Posted
Just now, Chuckie Finster said:

I've made this point before, but I really think there's something to this.

What was Trump's attack against Hillary?  She's crooked, she should be in jail, etc.  She was not likable enough to combat that narrative, so even though she "won" the debates, she never changed the stigma surrounding her.

Trump is already telegraphing where he wants to go with Biden, and it's his mental faculties.  Even Joe's rivals would admit that he's likable.  He's empathetic.  He reminds people of their grandfather.  He's the exact kind of target that will make Trump look like a bully, and Trump will not be capable of threading the needle without being outright mean.  I absolutely understand that his loyal followers will still cheer him on, but I think others will respond to the attacks on Biden in a way they never did for Hillary.  And for those (somehow) still in the middle, he will win no new friends.

It's not logical.  It's a terrible way to choose a leader.  But we are emotional, dumb, stupid creatures and I think Grandpa Joe will come out of the debates more favorably than most people anticipate.

Have you been in a cave for the last 4 years?

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G650

G650 13063

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, he's going to hit him there, but he's going to run to Joe's left on SS/Medicare and foreign policy.

 

https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-at-fox-news-town-hall-well-be-cutting-entitlements-like-medicare-social-security/

 

 

Trump at Fox News Town Hall: ‘Oh, We’ll Be Cutting’ Entitlements Like Medicare, Social Security

 

 

If you don't think this reaches farther the a Tweet, then you are crazy.

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8637

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, he's going to hit him there, but he's going to run to Joe's left on SS/Medicare and foreign policy.

 

What the fuck ever. Trumps administration is in lawsuits to throw out the ACA right now and he’s proposing plans to cut Medicare. He can tweet lies all day but it’s intellectually dishonest to say “Trump can run to Biden’s left” on healthcare. Jesus

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11141

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Posted
1 minute ago, G650 said:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-at-fox-news-town-hall-well-be-cutting-entitlements-like-medicare-social-security/

 

 

Trump at Fox News Town Hall: ‘Oh, We’ll Be Cutting’ Entitlements Like Medicare, Social Security

 

 

If you don't think this reaches farther the a Tweet, then you are crazy.

Trump lies??? I’m shocked to fond out there is gambling in this establishment.

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Hiphopopotamos

Hiphopopotamos 20850

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Posted
1 minute ago, G650 said:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-at-fox-news-town-hall-well-be-cutting-entitlements-like-medicare-social-security/

 

 

Trump at Fox News Town Hall: ‘Oh, We’ll Be Cutting’ Entitlements Like Medicare, Social Security

 

 

If you don't think this reaches farther the a Tweet, then you are crazy.

Bloomberg is going to have these quotes running on repeat non-stop on TV's and in mailboxes across the 6 battleground states.

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G650

G650 13063

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Trump lies??? I’m shocked to fond out there is gambling in this establishment.

Pretty sure no one is arguing differently. But this video clip is getting plastered everywhere up till the election. Trump can't run to Biden's left.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13018

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, G650 said:

If you don't think this reaches farther the a Tweet, then you are crazy.

I'm not following what you mean here. Are you saying Trump isn't actually going to run that or that he will be exposed as a lying hypocrite when he tries?

Serious questions:
- Did you watch the 2015/16 Republican debates? I watched probably 75% of them.
- Did you watch 2015/16 Trump rallies? I watched over a dozen.

I'm not sure you understand Donald Trump the candidate.

Quote

Pretty sure no one is arguing differently. But this video clip is getting plastered everywhere up till the election. Trump can't run to Biden's left.

"We've got him this time!!!!!!!"

lol we are fucked

9 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

What the fuck ever. Trumps administration is in lawsuits to throw out the ACA right now and he’s proposing plans to cut Medicare. He can tweet lies all day but it’s intellectually dishonest to say “Trump can run to Biden’s left” on healthcare. Jesus

What does "can" have to do with it. I know he's not actually to Biden's left on entitlements, but what I know doesn't mean shit to voters.

All I'm telling you is what Trump is going to do. He is going to say, "I want to protect SS/Medicare and Sleepy Joe wants to cut it, he tried to make a deal in 2011 but couldn't make the deal to cut SS/Medicare, even Crazy Bernie tried to stop Sleepy Joe from cutting it but I'm not going to cut it. I'm going to protect it and make it so good."

Is he a liar? Yes.
Is he dishonest? Yes.
Is he a hypocrite? Yes.
But he is going to say and do those things anyway.

Be mad at me all you want, dude, it's the same shit as 2016 when leftists were saying, "He's going to run to Hillary's left on entitlements and foreign policy" and the Hillbots screamed, "HOW FUCKING DARE YOU BERNIE BRO BASTARDS!?!?!?!?" in response and then... that's exactly what he did and it worked because their whole campaign strategy was, "Donald is so bad and horrible and deplorable and Hillary is dignified and smart and qualified."

Just wait. He'll run populist on trade, too. And you'll be mad at leftists for knowing ahead of time.

History repeats.

The answer isn't to blame me for knowing what's Trump is going to do. The answer is to make sure Biden has such a powerful pro-entitlement policy that he can push an easy-to-sell progressive populist agenda that it will connect with the voters over the noise of Trump's attacks.

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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15225

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Posted
2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"How can Trump try that when it's dishonest!?!?!?!?" - Liberals who totally understand the fight they're getting into

Hold on, here--let's just be a bit realistic.  We've run this experiment before in 2018.  The Republicans absolutely tried to run on "we'll protect [coverage for] pre-existing conditions."  It didn't work.  Because even as stupid as I think the American people are, they're still smarter than that.

Trump will try to obfuscate his record and claim to hold positions he plainly doesn't.  You can get away with that when you've never before held public office.

But now there's a record.  The Republicans ran that play in 2018.  It didn't work.  There's no reason to think it will work this time.

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G650

G650 13063

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Posted
4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"How can Trump try that when it's dishonest!?!?!?!?" - Liberals who totally understand the fight they're getting into

I have no idea what you are even trying to saying in that word vomit above, but everyone knows Trump is going to lie his face off. The point is him on video saying he is cutting that stuff is going to be beamed into the skulls of all the olds from now till November, because they still watch TV, and Bloomberg is going to spend infinity billion dollars making sure that's what happens. Will be on instagram, facebook and whatever else too for good measure. Probably Fox News also.

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 44920

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4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Trump will try to obfuscate his record and claim to hold positions he plainly doesn't.  You can get away with that when you've never before held public office.

But now there's a record.  The Republicans ran that play in 2018.  It didn't work.  There's no reason to think it will work this time.

This is what gives me hope.  In 2016 he could just bloviate and make absurd promises because no one had seen him fail on a political stage before.  Now he has a long list of fuck ups that should be brought up ad nauseum.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 103148

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Posted
20 minutes ago, G650 said:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-at-fox-news-town-hall-well-be-cutting-entitlements-like-medicare-social-security/

 

 

Trump at Fox News Town Hall: ‘Oh, We’ll Be Cutting’ Entitlements Like Medicare, Social Security

 

 

If you don't think this reaches farther the a Tweet, then you are crazy.

This is actually the foundation of Trumps methodology.  Take every position, so that the people who want to support you for, umm, other reasons (racism, xenophobia, etc.) can hold a statement up to say "see, I'm voting for him because he's going to protect medicare [or cut medicare]!"

That he's lying doesn't matter.  He's just scattering crumbs out there for his cultists to hold up to justify their loathsome positions.  They don't have to be true statements.  They just have to exist.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13018

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Hold on, here--let's just be a bit realistic.  We've run this experiment before in 2018.  The Republicans absolutely tried to run on "we'll protect [coverage for] pre-existing conditions."  It didn't work.  Because even as stupid as I think the American people are, they're still smarter than that.

Donald Trump and "the Republicans" are not the same thing.

That's like conflating Barack Obama with "the Democrats" as Obama's popularity stayed high and Democrats at large lost 1000 seats nationwide.

Quote

Trump will try to obfuscate his record and claim to hold positions he plainly doesn't.  You can get away with that when you've never before held public office.

But now there's a record.  The Republicans ran that play in 2018.  It didn't work.  There's no reason to think it will work this time.

DONALD TRUMP GETS AWAY WITH FUCKING EVERYTHING.

Wake up. He's an absolute criminal  who couldn't be convicted if he shot someone on 5th avenue. He already said that. He told us already and he's spent 5 years living it out in our faces.

We aren't going to win by pulling the god damned mask off at the end of the Scooby Doo episode and surprising the audience with "OH HE WAS A LIAR ALL ALONG!". The audience already knows, he took the mask off himself and is dancing around with it.

The court jester isn't insightful because he's respected and noble, he's insightful because he has abandoned his own pretense and he rips away the pretense of his target.

1 minute ago, G650 said:

I have no idea what you are even trying to saying in that word vomit above, but everyone knows Trump is going to lie his face off. The point is him on video saying he is cutting that stuff is going to be beamed into the skulls of all the olds from now till November, because they still watch TV, and Bloomberg is going to spend infinity billion dollars making sure that's what happens. Will be on instagram, facebook and whatever else too for good measure. Probably Fox News also.

Cool, and ... what? It beams into the skulls then ... what?

No you've got competing clips of both guys saying they're going to cut SS/Medicare and now Biden is in the mud with Trump where Trump is a 5th dan red belt and Biden doesn't know who his wife is.

Biden will need to run a campaign with hard, tangible, simply offers to the types of voters Trump is going to target. Not vague bullshit about decency and getting things done, but "I am going to give you this specific healthcare plan and I am going to take your medical and student debt away".

Specific, tangible, and meaningful offers. The people need someone to vote for, not just "this guy is mean you can't vote for him!"

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8637

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16 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"How can Trump try that when it's dishonest!?!?!?!?" - Liberals who totally understand the fight they're getting into

Given the 2018 results and that the biggest issue most common amongst voters was healthcare- no one with a brain is worried about taking on Trump on the issue. 

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ndawg

ndawg 1242

Posted
Posted
Just now, Brisketexan said:

This is actually the foundation of Trumps methodology.  Take every position, so that the people who want to support you for, umm, other reasons (racism, xenophobia, etc.) can hold a statement up to say "see, I'm voting for him because he's going to protect medicare [or cut medicare]!"

That he's lying doesn't matter.  He's just scattering crumbs out there for his cultists to hold up to justify their loathsome positions.  They don't have to be true statements.  They just have to exist.

The crazy thing is how well this works without him having to actually realize he's doing it.

He says whatever makes him feel good. Because his thoughts are so scattered, and his attention span is so short, he can't help but to contradict himself. Fox News continually expands the elaborate castle in the sky they've built to give each successive contradiction its own room where it makes some small amount of logical sense (as long as you don't leave the room).

Collective insanity is a sight to behold. When one person goes insane, we recognize that insanity because their words and actions are no longer sympathetic with the general population. But when a whole group of people go insane together, there's no stopping it -- until the good guys show up at Normandy beach.

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 28616

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Posted

the results wouldn't have been as sweeping and consistent - especially in some unexpected areas - without it being at least somewhat a referendum on trump.

i mean, shit, he even went out and campaigned and told people to pretend he was on the ballot.  same shit he's done for local races over the past several months.  most of those have been losses for him.

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