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Israel-Hamas war thread


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34 minutes ago, NoName said:

not shitting on Jordan specifically, just the fact that basically the entire Arab world does the absolute minimum for the Palestinians because of where they are and the fact they can use them as a stick to beat Israel with.

Jordan has a ton of Palestinian and Syrian refugees there, not sure where your # is from but I've seen about 2m registered Pal. and the thought is there is another like 1.3m Syrian refugees there (like half registered with UNRWA)

I got the number of Palestinian refugees in Jordan from this dataset published by the UN, which listed 2,334,789 in 2021 and 2,365,090 in 2022, the most recent year. I rounded up to 2.4 million.

https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/download/?url=0zZg7O

Also, it should be noted an additional 2.5 million or so Palestinians are refugees inside Gaza or the West Bank, according to the dataset listed above. If you estimate the total Palestinian population of both Gaza and the West Bank to be roughly 5.5 million, that means about 45% of all Palestinians living in either territory are refugees. That sounds like a grim situation.

Finally, the same dataset shows Lebanon hosting close to 500,000 and Syria close to 600,000.

I won't argue the wider responsibility of the Arab world, including Egypt here. Some of this conversation can get a little CR, so I'm not going to go any further.

 

Edited by bolverk
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32 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Just give them Oregon. Or New Zealand. 10x the space and far away from the ‘Rabs. 

Everybody wins. 

just because I think there are some holy (shit) sites in Oregon (never been to NZ), doesn't mean the religous in the mid east will agree.

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15 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Egypt can't take care of their own people and their infrastructure is shit.  They can't deal with a million refugees.

Besides the fact that most Muslim states are poor, why do some people fall into the identitarian assumption that they all unify simply on the basis of religion. Not all Christian people and states get along. 

Egypt - or whoever else - will use Palestine as long as its convenient and later dispose of them when necessary. They are their own entities in the end. 

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1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

Besides the fact that most Muslim states are poor, why do some people fall into the identitarian assumption that they all unify simply on the basis of religion. Not all Christian people and states get along. 

Egypt - or whoever else - will use Palestine as long as its convenient and later dispose of them when necessary. They are their own entities in the end. 

yeah man, we are all aware of the Shia-Sunni divide in the Arab world. this isn't 1994.

let me fix this for you:

Quote

Egypt - and basically everyone else in the Arab world - will use Palestine as long as its convenient and later dispose of them when necessary.

re: "poor"

OPEC members earned about $888 billion in net oil export revenue in 2022 alone. they will earn about $2.8 trillion between 21 and 24 based on their projections.

go take a look at the OPEC members in the MENA region alone.

image.png.924083d6a3d49a7924ff33130c9d860f.png
EU and their member states have given them billions.

US has given them billions

Qatar has given them billions.

notice who isn't showing up a ton on this list? or who gave them money specifically during the Second Intifada and have dropped off a ton since?

lol "poor countries"

they could if they wanted to or cared to, but they can't or won't and they haven't.

it is what it is but don't defend them as "poor countries" - come on.

 

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16 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Besides the fact that most Muslim states are poor, why do some people fall into the identitarian assumption that they all unify simply on the basis of religion. Not all Christian people and states get along. 

Egypt - or whoever else - will use Palestine as long as its convenient and later dispose of them when necessary. They are their own entities in the end. 

because with respect to the US and Israel there is a ton of overlapping positions (of opposition), because many of these nations have a vocal position on Israeli / Palestinian politics, because neighboring countries should do things to help stabilize their region and should engage in humanitarian aid (and I think the US should do this in its own border politics too), because not all motives are clean and there is a long history of Palestinians being used as pawns by countries in the Middle East.

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23 minutes ago, NoName said:

they could if they wanted to or cared to, but they can't or won't and they haven't.

it is what it is but don't defend them as "poor countries" - come on.

 

Uh, what countries did you think I suggested SHOULD give them harbor? (my point is its none).

And what countries are you suggesting should do it, and are simultaneously flush with excess wealth?

 

 

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36 minutes ago, NoName said:

OPEC members earned about $888 billion in net oil export revenue in 2022 alone. they will earn about $2.8 trillion between 21 and 24 based on their projections.

go take a look at the OPEC members in the MENA region alone.

image.png.924083d6a3d49a7924ff33130c9d860f.png

the largest producer and exporter of oil in that list still has a lower per capita gdp than the EU but sure

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They are spread across the gulf  but not large numbers. Here is a graphic from a migration advocacy group in 2022. I do not know their politics. But I can say working in the UAE, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain for 8 years I did not meet that many. My interpreter in Dubai was Palestinian, his parents were doctors, but still never given any rights for land ownership. They did not have the $ to purchase a 99 year lease like the Western. Expats, Russians, rich Indians or Chinese did. 

What is misleading is this map shows both Internally Displaced People (still within Israel's borders but not at home) and Refugees (another country). This is important since the aid given to the two categories is quite different. 

image.png.13c30dfbb3cd149c248dee6dd149ac89.png

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/palestinian-refugees-dispossession#:~:text=Generations of Palestinian Refugees Face Protracted Displacement and Dispossession,-May 3%2C 2023&text=Seventy-five years after the,the largest stateless community worldwide.

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2 hours ago, bolverk said:

I got the number of Palestinian refugees in Jordan from this dataset published by the UN, which listed 2,334,789 in 2021 and 2,365,090 in 2022, the most recent year. I rounded up to 2.4 million.

https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/download/?url=0zZg7O

Also, it should be noted an additional 2.5 million or so Palestinians are refugees inside Gaza or the West Bank, according to the dataset listed above. If you estimate the total Palestinian population of both Gaza and the West Bank to be roughly 5.5 million, that means about 45% of all Palestinians living in either territory are refugees. That sounds like a grim situation.

Finally, the same dataset shows Lebanon hosting close to 500,000 and Syria close to 600,000.

I won't argue the wider responsibility of the Arab world, including Egypt here. Some of this conversation can get a little CR, so I'm not going to go any further.

 

and almost all of the ones in Jordan have been there since at least '73 and are multi-generational 'refugees' who have lived in Jordan their entire life. 

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9 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

and almost all of the ones in Jordan have been there since at least '73 and are multi-generational 'refugees' who have lived in Jordan their entire life. 

If you're itching for a discussion on the topic of the status of refugees in this thread, you won't get one from me. We're already off-topic from the "current events" mandate given to us by Blacklab.

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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

If you're itching for a discussion on the topic of the status of refugees in this thread, you won't get one from me. We're already off-topic from the "current events" mandate given to us by Blacklab.

Not itching for anything.  Was just adding additional context to the data presented.  

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Just now, Trey3216 said:

Not itching for anything.  Was just adding additional context to the data presented.  

Which is fine. Seriously. There's other additional context to the refugee topic, but this isn't the appropriate place. I'm more than happy to provide that, congenially, elsewhere. Let's keep this thread focused on what's going on now in the conflict itself, as requested by mods.  

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9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

If you're itching for a discussion on the topic of the status of refugees in this thread, you won't get one from me. We're already off-topic from the "current events" mandate given to us by Blacklab.

 

 

I think the "mandate" is more like a guideline than an actual rule.

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no clue whats happening here but already a ton of misinformation and videos out there on it. ive seen videos purporting to show a failed Hamas rocket launch and a video saying it is an Israeli airstrike and showing it.

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edit: already being weaponized no matter what.

edit2: of course a politician already jumped on it. wrong time and direction. at this point not seeing ANYONE clearly say what did/didn't happen and a lot of questions out there about it like an hour+ after it happened is wild

image.png.aa4d9f46a7c3599c6e5de89a69b02a3e.png

the hamas "failed rocket" video i saw was this one which is old/recycled:

politicians gonna be politicians

another update:

 

 

Edited by NoName
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3 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Apologies if this has already been posted but Scoop: White House has discussed U.S. military response if Hezbollah attacks Israel.

Quick temp check: who here thinks that the US joining a war in the middle east is a good idea?

comedy central yes GIF by The Jim Jefferies Show

Just Kidding Showtime GIF by Desus & Mero

btw reluctantly joining wars is how world wars happen.

if we do join I'd bet $1000 it's air support only.

Edited by troph
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Aaron Boxerman
Oct. 17, 2023, 2:49 p.m. ET6 minutes ago
6 minutes ago
Aaron BoxermanReporting from Jerusalem

The Israel Defense Forces said in a statement that hospitals were not Israeli military targets. “The I.D.F. is investigating the source of the explosion and, like always, is prioritizing accuracy and reliability,” the Israeli military said in a statement. “We urge everyone to proceed with caution.”

 

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15 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Apologies if this has already been posted but Scoop: White House has discussed U.S. military response if Hezbollah attacks Israel.

Quick temp check: who here thinks that the US joining a war in the middle east is a good idea?

I watched this interview with Zeihan last night, and he's pretty adamant in his belief that the US is going to try to stay out of it (unless it's to rescue US hostages).

 

@DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt Start at 14:20 for that part of the discussion.

Edited by bolverk
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1 hour ago, NoName said:

no clue whats happening here but already a ton of misinformation and videos out there on it. ive seen videos purporting to show a failed Hamas rocket launch and a video saying it is an Israeli airstrike and showing it.

+

+

+

+

+

edit: already being weaponized no matter what.

edit2: of course a politician already jumped on it. wrong time and direction. at this point not seeing ANYONE clearly say what did/didn't happen and a lot of questions out there about it like an hour+ after it happened is wild

image.png.aa4d9f46a7c3599c6e5de89a69b02a3e.png

the hamas "failed rocket" video i saw was this one which is old/recycled:

politicians gonna be politicians

another update:

 

 

 

more updates

image.png.0e0262b7bd79967f7e0b0ca9b9061791.png

+

image.png.ba8b9663684a8fa2a9d69eabd9729705.png

expanding into Jordan now:

 

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MORE misinformation around this attack:

 

 

Edited by NoName
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20 minutes ago, NoName said:

 

MORE misinformation around this attack:

 

 

well...

 

 

it's too late though:

 

earlier Israel sent out a recommendation for all of their citizens to leave Turkey.

additional info:

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well, shit.

 

Edited by NoName
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For those wanting to avoid Twitter bullshit, I'm finding the Live Update page from Haaretz to be helpful. Their updates are coming in fast and furious. I'm not posting the link because the URL changes periodically with major news. 

Go to the Haaretz homepage: https://www.haaretz.com/ and click the below. Refresh as needed. No paywall.

image.png.2bd9c6d638b5bd60599d0abe9f286efb.png 

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9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

For those wanting to avoid Twitter bullshit, I'm finding the Live Update page from Haaretz to be helpful. Their updates are coming in fast and furious. I'm not posting the link because the URL changes periodically with major news. 

Go to the Haaretz homepage: https://www.haaretz.com/ and click the below. Refresh as needed. No paywall.

image.png.2bd9c6d638b5bd60599d0abe9f286efb.png 

WTF is going on in that photo?

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14 minutes ago, bolverk said:

For those wanting to avoid Twitter bullshit, I'm finding the Live Update page from Haaretz to be helpful. Their updates are coming in fast and furious. I'm not posting the link because the URL changes periodically with major news. 

Go to the Haaretz homepage: https://www.haaretz.com/ and click the below. Refresh as needed. No paywall.

image.png.2bd9c6d638b5bd60599d0abe9f286efb.png 

im happy to spoiler my tweet links if folks prefer. no issue from my end!

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2 minutes ago, NoName said:

im happy to spoiler my tweet links if folks prefer. no issue from my end!

No worries. Just trying to identify alternative sources for those worried about bad Twitter accounts.

 

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

Looks like bodies being dropped into a vertical grave.  That people are inside of.

Seems to be the case.

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