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SmokeyBear1861

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The slogan is much older than Hamas. Sorry but I'm not buying the Zionist propaganda about it. And fuck anyone who censured Tlaib over it.

“Zionist propaganda.”
You cited a Wikipedia article as authoritative on the matter.
The article….the very one you cited… plainly discussed the genocidal meaning and usage of the term. Actual usage. By actual groups. One of which is runs the government of Gaza. And just murdered over 1,000 innocents.

But you’re “not buying it.”

This is going really well for you.
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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


“Zionist propaganda.”
You cited a Wikipedia article as authoritative on the matter.
The article….the very one you cited… plainly discussed the genocidal meaning and usage of the term. Actual usage. By actual groups. One of which is runs the government of Gaza. And just murdered over 1,000 innocents.

But you’re “not buying it.”

This is going really well for you.

I did that because I'm watching a game and it's not my job to find the evidence you couldn't find. Show me the evidence that supports your viewpoint and I might change my mind (I've been saying this over and over). So far, though, I gotta say the case for "it's a call for genociding jews" is very, very thin.

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I did that because I'm watching a game and it's not my job to find the evidence you couldn't find. Show me the evidence that supports your viewpoint and I might change my mind (I've been saying this over and over). So far, though, I gotta say the case for "it's a call for genociding jews" is very, very thin.

You mean…other than the case plainly stated in the very source you cited.

You are embarrassing yourself here. You should probably stop.
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2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

If it’s just a call for one nation between the Jordan and Med where everyone lives in a nice secular democracy with equal rights and no discrimination……

Then why aren’t they chanting “Israel shall be free?”  They could likely get a lot more traction with that one. 

Beats me. Probably because that's like saying "ALL LIVES MATTER" when the oppressed people aren't the Israelis.

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7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Beats me. Probably because that's like saying "ALL LIVES MATTER" when the oppressed people aren't the Israelis.

Not really. If they want to live in a free, secular, tolerant Israel they could just say so. Clearly an important part of this is “Israel” going away and something called “Palestine” replacing it.  The most charitable reading involves eliminating a country. 

 

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I think at this point it's clear you can't find support for your position. Which is fine, but why belabor it?

Except for the Wikipedia article that you cited. And a piece from Al Jazeera acknowledging that usage. And a piece from the AP. And the actual words of Hamas leaders. Etc etc.
Other than that, no support for the point that the slogan has been used with a genocidal meaning. Yep. You got us.
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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Not really. If they want to live in a free, secular, tolerant Israel they could just say so. Clearly an important part of this is “Israel” going away and something called “Palestine” replacing it.  The most charitable reading involves eliminating a country. 

 

What's wrong with "From the river to the sea Palestine will be free" there is nothing in there about eliminating anyone or anything. It was conceived as, and always has been, a call for freedom. Has it been misappropriated by bad actors? At times, sure. (I include Likud with that). That doesn't change what the slogan means.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:


Except for the Wikipedia article that you cited. And a piece from Al Jazeera acknowledging that usage. And a piece from the AP. And the actual words of Hamas leaders. Etc etc.
Other than that, no support for the point that the slogan has been used with a genocidal meaning. Yep. You got us.

That usage is not what the majority of people mean, though. Definitely not Tlaib. It's a fine slogan.

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That usage is not what the majority of people mean, though. Definitely not Tlaib. It's a fine slogan.

Keep thinking that way. Slogans and statements are meant to persuade.
Usage of the slogan is costing the cause much persuasion. If the pro-Palestinian cause wants to keep marginalizing itself, by all means, stick with saying something that alienates a good chunk of the very people it should be persuading.
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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

"Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea [...] along the lines of the 4th of June 1967".[30][31][22]”

What did the genocide river to the sea map look like on June 4 1967?

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18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Whatever else Tlaib says or does, she has a problem with posting demonstrably false takes and then refusing to climb back down even when proven wrong.
 

image.thumb.jpeg.8fe6f9520ffeb2755e47eed844088bd6.jpeg

 

"demonstrably" gtfo that was bombed by Israel

Edited by chainsaw
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14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


You have got to be kidding me. This has to be a bit.
Seriously, you are not enhancing the credibility of your “side” at all. You’re only further damaging it.

It has plainly genocidal tones and is a core slogan of Hamas in its pledge to drive Jews from the entire levant:
————
“From the river to the sea” echoes through pro-Palestinian rallies across campuses and cities, adopted by some as a call for a single state on the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean.

By 2012, it was clear that Hamas had claimed the slogan in its drive to claim land spanning Israel, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

“Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north,” Khaled Mashaal, the group’s former leader, said that year in a speech in Gaza celebrating the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas. “There will be no concession on any inch of the land.”

The phrase also has roots in the Hamas charter.
———-

I gotta tell ya, if I wanted to chant for peace and equality, I PROBABLY wouldn’t adopt a slogan that’s regularly used by genocidal terrorist groups.

6 million more.... should be Apple's new slogan.  They want to sell 6 million more iPhone 15s.   /chainsaw as a Marketing Manager.  Wondering why his only clients are bald with Indian tattoos, and white laced boots.   

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20 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

I’d appreciate hearing the centrist position. Care to share it?

There are near an infinity of non extremist options, in almost all political situations.  The extremism declare there is not.  
it’s not my war but I care about the ongoing killing.

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32 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm fine, I freaked out a bit last night, but loaded my dogs up and took something of an impromptu road trip to clear my head. I haven't had an episode like that in years, I sincerely apologize guys.

nothing to apologize about. it's all good. 

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On 11/11/2023 at 2:08 PM, Anastasis said:

When I see stuff like that posted here, I think about the type of propaganda artist that would post that here and think it was informative to consideration of the positions being taken by the posters here. Really makes you wonder…

On rare occasions I'll hit "show this post" from someone I have on ignore.  Usually it's something worthless; no exception here.

21 hours ago, Jatrain said:

They’re all assholes?  

There's a little more to it than that, but thanks for your effort.

21 hours ago, chainsaw said:

That's not the saying. The saying is "From the river to the sea [wait for it] Palestine will be free."

There's nothing in there about eradicating anyone, much less Jews.

It's a Hamas slogan.  It's all about eradicating Jews.

Edited by Bullneck
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52 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

On rare occasions I'll hit "show this post" from someone I have on ignore.  Usually it's something worthless; no exception here.

There's a little more to it than that, but thanks for your effort.

It's a Hamas slogan.  It's all about eradicating Jews.

Hamas didn't come up with it and they have not redefined it. If you have contrary evidence I'm all ears.

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22 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Hamas didn't come up with it and they have not redefined it. If you have contrary evidence I'm all ears.

I absolutely can understand that the saying has different meanings to different people. For fucks sake, look at the confederate flag!   I’ve grown up with enough dumb shit UDC people to know that they all aren’t raging racists.

That said, you have to be smart enough in 2023 not to fly the fucking confederate flag - because enough racist assholes consider it to be their symbol that your personal views must bow to the clear offense that use in a is seen by others.

The same thing with that saying.

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2 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

I absolutely can understand that the saying has different meanings to different people. For fucks sake, look at the confederate flag!   I’ve grown up with enough dumb shit UDC people to know that they all aren’t raging racists.

Confederate flag was never conceived as anything other than a symbol of a secessionist movement that was expressly and provably intended to preserve the institution of slavery. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Quote

enough racist assholes consider it to be their symbol that your personal views must bow to the clear offense that use in a is seen by others.

The same thing with that saying.

I'm fairly confident that if you poll the non-terrorists (who even in Gaza outnumber the terrorists like 99-1) who use the slogan the majority of them would not say that "be free" means "be free of jews." I'm not a fan of micromanaging the mannerisms of a systematically oppressed people. If it ruffles the feathers of the oppressors, so be it.

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38 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Confederate flag was never conceived as anything other than a symbol of a secessionist movement that was expressly and provably intended to preserve the institution of slavery. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

IMG_1939.jpeg.bfceb3780bcbcae15a1a09d4103a321b.jpeg

Look, nobody with half a brain who has looked at the actual secession articles enacted by the various southern states can argue that the war was NOT about preserving slavery.  But that is no way negates the fact that many Confederate soldiers fighting in that war did not have slaves, nor did they join to expressly preserve slavery. And it doesn’t mean that their dimwitted descendants who are proud of their ancestors’ service to the confederacy all think that “slavery was great” - or that they hate Black people because of their usage.   I am the family historian.   I thwarted another family member’s attempt to sign up their daughter in the UDC for a college scholarship.  I knew that the harm to the daughter by affiliating with the organization was far worse than a small $ college scholarship.  For people like my relative, regardless of history, regardless of what you just said, they do not view their ancestors service the same way as those who appropriated that symbol and use it as a representation of racism and hate.

We need to move veeeerrrrry slowly when our assumptions attribute terrible views to people.    Often it is a combo of Hanlon’s razor and a lack of information. 

We agree on that

Edited by Gatorubet
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4 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

You have made up your mind. You aren’t worth bothering with. 

lol. Spider man pointing gif this whole thread. But at least some of y’all showed up to it eventually. Crickets can only chirp so long while Palestinians are murdered in cold blood by the IDF for the crime of being a reporter or nonviolently protesting apartheid. 

Edited by Anastasis
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3 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

You have made up your mind. You aren’t worth bothering with. 

The slogan itself doesn't have any genocidal terms in it. Whatever you think is genocidal must have come from someplace else, but where? Thats what I've been asking for and the best anyone could muster has been "well Hamas says it too" as if they get to redefine it for everyone else. They don't, they haven't, and the hundreds of thousands of people who have been saying it worldwide haven't allowed the slogan to be coopted for that purpose.

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On 11/11/2023 at 7:33 PM, chainsaw said:

So if Hamas says something sensible it's off limits for everyone else to say? I'm asking about the overwhelming majority of people who are using it. The people in the streets calling for a ceasefire. The assignment was not to find an antisemite or terrorist who has used the slogan. The assignment was to find evidence that the slogan means what you claim it means.

Guys, let’s take chainsaw at his word. When we come across a demonstration, we can mingle in and add the other chants:

”From the river to the sea, we want liberal democracy!”

 
“From the river to the sea, pluralism is for me!”

“From the river to the sea, no to Islamic theocracy!”

We can do it!

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