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Just now, 52-80 said:

justified??? justified??? the americans?? thats pretty bush league stuff next to the other heavyweights listed there

i agree, although i liked both.  i was answering a question and predicting what the surly list would look like based on the dozens of times the question has been revisited.

my personal top 5 includes the west wing, but may not include sopranos.

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I loved season 2 from the jump, BUT a huge part of that was it was actually season 1 for me.  Somehow I didn't even know about the show for season 1.  I picked it up at season 2, episode 2.  I watched season 1 after I completed season 2 so I was hooked from the beginning.  I still love season 2 and rank it as my second favorite behind season 3.  for me, season one is actually 4th to me.  season 5 doesn't really exist. 

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will finish s3 tonight i have really enjoyed so far . s2 was good didn't really think any thing of it except  ziggy being an asshole . fuck him . 

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4 minutes ago, mr.goodkat said:

will finish s3 tonight i have really enjoyed so far . s2 was good didn't really think any thing of it except  ziggy being an asshole . fuck him . 

all the pieces matter

 

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It's repeatedly said, but I'll say it once more: Season 2 the first time around was rough, but the second time through was amazing. I really do think it was just the rough transition from the drug game to the docks and human trafficking that leads it to being a tough watch the first time around. Expectations and all that.

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5 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

It's repeatedly said, but I'll say it once more: Season 2 the first time around was rough, but the second time through was amazing. I really do think it was just the rough transition from the drug game to the docks and human trafficking that leads it to being a tough watch the first time around. Expectations and all that.

100%

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21 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

It's repeatedly said, but I'll say it once more: Season 2 the first time around was rough, but the second time through was amazing. I really do think it was just the rough transition from the drug game to the docks and human trafficking that leads it to being a tough watch the first time around. Expectations and all that.

it was a slightly jarring transition but it seemed natural enough and there were definitely lots of ins and outs and what have you  but it all connected . i thought it was good tv from the go . 

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I was listening to Ross Bolen's GOT podcast after the finale and they compared the end of GOT with S5 of The Wire, in terms of bad final seasons. Bolen's main issue with The Wire's conclusion was "going from the streets to the newspaper," which struck me as odd, because I thought that the serial killer silliness was most people's main criticism. 

I mostly enjoyed the newspaper story, as much as one can enjoy seeing the fabulist and snotty editors "win." I also thought Gus was a great character. Its inclusion may have been more of an outlet for Simon to give some of his former colleagues the finger, but in terms of derailing story and characters, the serial killer angle was much more jarring, IMO.

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On June 4, 2019 at 11:14 AM, SimonBolivar said:

Season 5 is good tv it's just the worst of the The Wire. 

Yeah, the problem was that the central premise was bad. But the storytelling was still solid and S5 had some of the best scenes in the series. For the sake of those watching it for the first time, I'll spoiler the rest of my comments. 

First, when they do the psychological profile on McNulty's fictitious serial killer and they describe him to a T, that was hysterical. I think that might have been the whole reason they chose the made up serial killer angle in the first place. 

Second, Jimmy's wake might have been the best scene in the series. It was definitely right up there. Tony Soprano was the same person in the last episode of The Sopranos as he was in the first (also alive in both cases). Jimmy McNulty showed actual growth. He developed as a character.

If Jimmy's wake wasn't the best scene of the series then Bubbles' redemption was, when he was finally allowed to come upstairs and have breakfast with his sister and niece. It was certainly the most powerful. The final episode was strong and it ended with a message of hope. The worst series of The Wire was still better than most anything else on tv.

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Someone cited an article in Scientific American explaining why GoT went to shit after the books ran out.  The theory was, and I think there's a lot to it, that GRRM wrote it as a sociological story, where the houses and territories dominated and the characters were secondary.

The article cited The Wire as another sociological drama, possibly the first.  And I think that's accurate.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Yeah, the problem was that the central premise was bad. But the storytelling was still solid and S5 had some of the best scenes in the series. For the sake of those watching it for the first time, I'll spoiler the rest of my comments. 

 

  Hide contents

First, when they do the psychological profile on McNulty's fictitious serial killer and they describe him to a T, that was hysterical. I think that might have been the whole reason they chose the made up serial killer angle in the first place. 

Second, Jimmy's wake might have been the best scene in the series. It was definitely right up there. Tony Soprano was the same person in the last episode of The Sopranos as he was in the first (also alive in both cases). Jimmy McNulty showed actual growth. He developed as a character.

If Jimmy's wake wasn't the best scene of the series then Bubbles' redemption was, when he was finally allowed to come upstairs and have breakfast with his sister and niece. It was certainly the most powerful. The final episode was strong and it ended with a message of hope. The worst series of The Wire was still better than most anything else on tv.

 

And that “That was for joe” scene was one of my favorites. 

Edited by SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

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s3 ended with a bang . i was kinda shocked SB got  got . damn . can't believe i'm just now getting to this . 

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Also, a favorite thing of mine that the Wire has given me is all the great actors who went on to other roles. I'll point out to my wife, who is holding out on watching, "see that guy? He was in The Wire" to the point where I started to mix in "see that guy?" to random actors in TV shows and she'll say, "let me guess, he was in The Wire?" And I'll say, "no, I have no idea who he is" just to annoy her. It was a slow burn to get to that point, but it made it more satisfying, just like the show.

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That Scientific American article. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/?redirect=1

Quote

Another example of sociological TV drama with a similarly enthusiastic fan following is David Simon’s The Wire, which followed the trajectory of a variety of actors in Baltimore, ranging from African-Americans in the impoverished and neglected inner city trying to survive, to police officers to journalists to unionized dock workers to city officials and teachers. That show, too, killed off its main characters regularly, without losing its audience. Interestingly, the star of each season was an institution more than a person. The second season, for example, focused on the demise of the unionized working class in the U.S.; the fourth highlighted schools; and the final season focused on the role of journalism and mass media.

Luckily for The Wire, creative control never shifted to the standard Hollywood narrative writers who would have given us individuals to root for or hate without being able to fully understand the circumstances that shape them. One thing that’s striking about The Wire is how one could understand all the characters, not just the good ones (and in fact, none of them were just good or bad). When that’s the case, you know you’re watching a sociological story.

 

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just finished last night . s5 wasn't bad withe the exception of scott templton that dudes a dick . but everything comes full circle . hate that marlo becomes the new stringer but mike prolly has something to say about that (at least in my head)  . overall great show , i already miss it . probably give it another go after football season . 

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2 hours ago, mr.goodkat said:

just finished last night . s5 wasn't bad withe the exception of scott templton that dudes a dick . but everything comes full circle . hate that marlo becomes the new stringer but mike prolly has something to say about that (at least in my head)  . overall great show , i already miss it . probably give it another go after football season . 

Why do you think Marlo becomes like Stringer Bell? I thought him leaving the event and returning to the corner was more like Avon.

Which characters did you enjoy the most? Any favorite storyline(s)?

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2 minutes ago, WJC88 said:

Why do you think Marlo becomes like Stringer Bell? I thought him leaving the event and returning to the corner was more like Avon.

Which characters did you enjoy the most? Any favorite storyline(s)?

my take is marlo is  like both stringer and avon . he is transcending to the business man but still has a foot firmly planted on the street . meaning like avon he can't seem to give that up , but he is already starting to fall into the " legitimate " players game like stringer either way he loses b/c ...the game . i really liked stringer bell despite being ultimately weak . omar was an awesome storyline and prop joe was super interesting . on the cop side bunk is awesome and the pressure put on them on all sides almost makes me feel for them in real life . carver coming into his own as a cop after being told he prolly should't be one was pretty cool to see 

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On 6/4/2019 at 10:12 AM, Eastwood said:

It's repeatedly said, but I'll say it once more: Season 2 the first time around was rough, but the second time through was amazing. I really do think it was just the rough transition from the drug game to the docks and human trafficking that leads it to being a tough watch the first time around. Expectations and all that.

I always liked Season 2 even the first time around. The characters were great and well acted. Even better the second time around like you said. You got to see the other side of Baltimore down at the docks, which is a big part of that city given their location. 

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I don't think Stringer was weak... he just didn't get that being legit was just as crooked as being in the game, and he couldn't make it work, at least not while being pulled back to the corner by Avon. Marlo had no interest in that life. 

I always liked the dichotomy between Marlo ("my name is my name" and Vondas/The Greek ("My name is not even Vindas"/"I'm not even Greek").

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Posted (edited)

Count me in as someone who freaking loved season 2.  Like a lot of folks I didn't know what to expect, and after being a bit confused for the first episode or so, I started thinking :"holy shit, they are going to really try to pull this off!"

I felt like the main story ended at the end of season 3.  Bunny was "Everyman" and his story was the death of hope, while still trying to hold on to hope.  Which is what the lives of everyone and the life of a city is about. 

Seasons four and five were just putting big fucking exclamation points on everything.  Or just a two season epilogue.

Edited by tantric superman

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17 hours ago, WJC88 said:

Why do you think Marlo becomes like Stringer Bell? I thought him leaving the event and returning to the corner was more like Avon.

Which characters did you enjoy the most? Any favorite storyline(s)?

Marlo just becomes the new king. He now has the connection with The Greek. Prop Joe is gone and the international smugglers have accepted the new reality. The game rolls on. 

Marlo's not Avon or Stringer or Joe. He's just the next guy. But I agree he's more like Avon than Stringer, and he's not like Prop Joe but he's got his connect. He's got things set up pretty nicely for himself. 

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15 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Marlo just becomes the new king. He now has the connection with The Greek. Prop Joe is gone and the international smugglers have accepted the new reality. The game rolls on. 

Marlo's not Avon or Stringer or Joe. He's just the next guy. But I agree he's more like Avon than Stringer, and he's not like Prop Joe but he's got his connect. He's got things set up pretty nicely for himself. 

until mike comes for him . which of course would be the game playing out 

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He's not getting the drop on Marlo. 

Maybe he becomes the new Omar. 

It would probably make a good story. If someone wrote and produced it, I'd certainly watch. 

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23 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

He's not getting the drop on Marlo. 

Maybe he becomes the new Omar. 

It would probably make a good story. If someone wrote and produced it, I'd certainly watch. 

they strongly infer  he becomes the "new omar" and i would  watch as well . as far as marlo goes every one gets got eventually ask prop joe 

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I'm about half way through season 2 on my first time watching.  I get that some people didn't love that season, but is it one of those "if you can make it through season 2, it gets a lot better" type deals?  I'm hoping so.

So far, the show falls into the good not great category for me.  I decided to give it a try since it constantly gets mentioned in "best show of all time" conversations, but so far, it's just like any run of the mill network big city cop show, only with cussing and some occasional brief nudity.  It's greatly missing that originality aspect that the other "best show ever" candidates have.

Do I need to stick it out through a particular point at which time it really gets great (which I know is the case with some series), or am I just never really going to get the hype if I don't get it yet?  Trying to keep an open mind here and give it the time it deserves.

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The port season (2) was my 2nd to least favorite (after Season 5) upon first viewing, but it grew on me.  I suggest sticking it out to season 3 (the political scene and drug legalization).  I think you'll agree by that point, even if you don't love the show, that it's not just your "run of the mill" cop show.  

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1 hour ago, BigOrange1 said:

lol at, "it's just another run of the mill cop show."

"It's basically a CBS show with a few more curses per minute."

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It's a lot like all those CSI shows dumb people like, except instead of using forensic science, the cops use alcohol and profanity.  

I'll never understand how a show that the producers explicitly demonstrated was about the dying institutions of a once-major American City, had a season that left so many white people scratching their heads?  Drug rings, Police, the Judicial System, Unions, Public Schools, the Media/Printed News, City Government, etc.  All institutions that rise and fall with any major American City.  Baltimore being one that used to be a major player and now is a punchline (and for good reason). And every fucking few months some white guy gets confused and thinks, "I thought this was about Baltimore.  Why are they focusing on some shipping labor union?"  Unions were more a a part of the fabric of that city than newspapers and schools.  Let's make it easy on these dumbfucks.  when you get to season 2, the showrunners will send you a DVD of 12 episodes of crab cakes being made since your brain can't onboard the absolutely brilliant story of Season 2 which also elegantly ties in the parallels of white organized crime and black organized crime.  It's one the best seasons.  The only season people can rightfully complain about is 5.  And we've already done that to death.  Then put a ribbon on it.  

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Watched a few more episodes since reading some thoughts from this thread.  Basically decided I needed to change my perspective on it and that has suddenly made the show better.  Funny how that works.

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After a long wait, I am finally working my way through Treme.  And it is a labor of love.

It sort of reminds you of when you found a novelist or a filmmaker you like and then you love one of his or her books so much that when you read some of their others, even though you realize it doesn't come close, you still have an understanding of what they are trying to do and you appreciate the nice touches. 

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5 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

After a long wait, I am finally working my way through Treme.  And it is a labor of love.

It sort of reminds you of when you found a novelist or a filmmaker you like and then you love one of his or her books so much that when you read some of their others, even though you realize it doesn't come close, you still have an understanding of what they are trying to do and you appreciate the nice touches. 

Agree with this. I enjoyed Treme but I am sucker for anything real New Orleans. Gonna restart The Wire with the gf cause she has never seen it before. 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

The port season (2) was my 2nd to least favorite (after Season 5) upon first viewing, but it grew on me.  I suggest sticking it out to season 3 (the political scene and drug legalization).  I think you'll agree by that point, even if you don't love the show, that it's not just your "run of the mill" cop show.  

There was an article posted on the GOT thread that observed that both GOT as originally "conceived," and The Wire, were/are "sociological" dramas, where the actions and "fates" of groups are at least as important as individual characters.  Season 2, where there's a huge change of characters, but many of the groups stay the same, is sort of the "intro" or first clue that this show is not solely about McNulty, Avon, and Stringer, which would indeed make it just another cop show.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

After a long wait, I am finally working my way through Treme.  And it is a labor of love.

It sort of reminds you of when you found a novelist or a filmmaker you like and then you love one of his or her books so much that when you read some of their others, even though you realize it doesn't come close, you still have an understanding of what they are trying to do and you appreciate the nice touches. 

I enjoyed Treme, but you're right. It was a damn chore. 

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2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

There was an article posted on the GOT thread that observed that both GOT as originally "conceived," and The Wire, were/are "sociological" dramas, where the actions and "fates" of groups are at least as important as individual characters.  Season 2, where there's a huge change of characters, but many of the groups stay the same, is sort of the "intro" or first clue that this show is not solely about McNulty, Avon, and Stringer, which would indeed make it just another cop show.

Ah!  So Ziggy is Viserys Targaryen ?

57462b13e9e8cd238a3ecb59cdfbb69a.png

 

 

Viserys-Daenerys.jpg&c=sc&w=736&h=485

 

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^ in that case nicky sobotka's girlfriend's tits = melisandre's tits*

 

*with the necklace on, of course

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, tantric superman said:

After a long wait, I am finally working my way through Treme.  And it is a labor of love.

It sort of reminds you of when you found a novelist or a filmmaker you like and then you love one of his or her books so much that when you read some of their others, even though you realize it doesn't come close, you still have an understanding of what they are trying to do and you appreciate the nice touches. 

Treme was brilliant. I loved that show. I guess I could see it being a chore if you're not into the music. I was sold on the first episode. Clarke Peters was brilliant as Big Chief Lambreaux. Never once in the whole series did I see a hint of Lester Freamon in him. 

 

Edited by WhatTheBuck

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3 hours ago, tantric superman said:

After a long wait, I am finally working my way through Treme.  And it is a labor of love.

It sort of reminds you of when you found a novelist or a filmmaker you like and then you love one of his or her books so much that when you read some of their others, even though you realize it doesn't come close, you still have an understanding of what they are trying to do and you appreciate the nice touches. 

Agree with that.  With both shows, he's also trying to convey the ethos of the city in question.  Treme was a perfect representation of New Orleans.  No real plot but a lot of interesting characters.

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4 hours ago, Landomatic said:

Watched a few more episodes since reading some thoughts from this thread.  Basically decided I needed to change my perspective on it and that has suddenly made the show better.  Funny how that works.

Make sure you're giving it your full attention. Everything contributes to the story. If you look away to check your phone then you'll miss something relevant to the plot. 

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5 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Make sure you're giving it your full attention. Everything contributes to the story. If you look away to check your phone then you'll miss something relevant to the plot. 

Or something that may show up a few episodes, or seasons, later.  Also, let some time pass and watch the series again.  It's even better the second time, and you'll better notice the subtleties.  

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33 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I guess I could see it being a chore if you're not into the music.

No, that's not really it.  If you google some of the criticisms you primarily get an idea that the filmmakers were a bit too reverential of New Orleans and the writing was a bit problematic/preachy/lecture-y.   I buy all of that. 

One of my biggest gripes is that Steve Zahn (generally a guy who I really like) is just too damn much.  If he were a funny asshole, it would be fine, but he is just a pushy, unfunny, unlikeable asshole, and being punched only once in the first two seasons is way less than he deserves.  Have been pretty disappointed in the Jon Seda character as well. 

That being said, I like the overall effort and I of course like swinging for the fences in what they were trying to do.

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1 minute ago, tantric superman said:

No, that's not really it.  If you google some of the criticisms you primarily get an idea that the filmmakers were a bit too reverential of New Orleans and the writing was a bit problematic/preachy/lecture-y.   I buy all of that. 

One of my biggest gripes is that Steve Zahn (generally a guy who I really like) is just too damn much.  If he were a funny asshole, it would be fine, but he is just a pushy, unfunny, unlikeable asshole, and being punched only once in the first two seasons is way less than he deserves.  Have been pretty disappointed in the Jon Seda character as well. 

That being said, I like the overall effort and I of course like swinging for the fences in what they were trying to do.

I'm not concerned about the critics. The Times-Picayune posted an article on their website after each episode describing the people, places, and events depicted in that episode with links to further reading on each. I was reading the New Orleans paper of record on a weekly basis while the show was running, everything they had to say about it, and it was well received overall. 

It was such original storytelling, a unique blend of the real and the fictional. Some of the main characters, like Albert and Delmond Lambreaux, Davis McAlary (Steve Zahn), and Creighton Burnette (John Goodman), were based on real people. In the case of Davis McAlary, the guy he was based on actually appeared in the show as a fictional character!

They had a lot of New Orleans locals playing themselves. Some (like Goodman) playing fictional characters. They had actors portraying musicians, and musicians portraying musicians. Lucia Micarelli, who played the character of Annie, is an accomplished violinist in real life. In Treme we see her develop as a musician from amateur to professional and leaving her less talented boyfriend and partner Sonny, played by Michiel Huisman who is himself a musician on the side, behind. I don't know what kind of musician Huisman is in real life, but Sonny was a mediocre musician on the show. And you could hear that. The quality of music performed in the show was part of the plot. And there was some really great music performed on the show. When it wasn't so great you could hear that too. 

You're not supposed to like John Seda's character. Davis McAlary is a colorful character, that's for sure. He's a favorite target of people who complain about the show. He doesn't bother me. New Orleans is a city of colorful characters. When he spends a day trying to convince Janette not to move to New York and begins by bringing beignets to her door with John Boutté to serenade her? I thought that was beautiful. And when he wrote a song, put a band together, and then had to come to grips with the fact that he wasn't good enough to be part of it? That's growth as a character. And it was pretty funny. 

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I'm just commenting when you implied that the reason I didn't like it was because I wasn't into the music.  I pointed out the critics because most of them didn't seem to have criticisms that were based on "not being into the music."

Similarly, when I say I don't like a character it's not that I don't necessarily like them because I wouldn't want to room with them.  It's because they aren't written in a way that makes them particularly good characters within the confines of the story, or they are written in a way that hurts the narrative and stops the story down.  (I'm not done with the series, so maybe I will get some good backstory that will give the Seda and Zahn characters some depth rather than them just being archetypes.

I think the folks who did this did exchange some of the perfect and tight writing of the Wire for reverence of New Orleans -- the history and music.  And the series suffered a bit for it.

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1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Make sure you're giving it your full attention. Everything contributes to the story. If you look away to check your phone then you'll miss something relevant to the plot. 

Oh yeah.  A buddy of mine was distracted by something for a minute, and missed Rawls at the gay bar.  He had no idea until I told him about it weeks later. 

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10 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

When he spends a day trying to convince Janette not to move to New York and begins by bringing beignets to her door with John Boutté to serenade her? I thought that was beautiful.

The ending of the first season, when you flashback to the storm -- that was well done and beautiful.

Your example -- it's what I didn't like about the show -- it seemed forced, partly because you never quite buy her liking him (or anyone liking him) in the first place, but it's mostly "Hey, beignets" ("Which is what we eat here in New Orleans, viewer!) (throw in the Cafe DuMonde vs. Cafe Beignet or whatever is the coolest one to like controversey.)

Show me a scene where they are eating at new orleans restaurants or eating new orleans food -- don't jab me with "HEY!  New Orleans, Beignets!"

Not a huge issue, but one that stops the show down a bit.

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