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Posted
2 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

 


Thanks, Twice. I always appreciate your posts on everything.

Regarding the bolded part, and I’ve seen a couple of similar explanations, would you say prayer could be treated more as meditation or a coping mechanism? A way of personally processing life’s hardships?

If a person firmly believes their version of God exists, then someone is listening, even if the response to prayer is unclear. If a person doesn’t believe in God, then people who pray are basically talking to themselves, but at least it helps them feel better or less alone in the world. I’m probably in the latter camp at this point but I can kinda understand the former camp even if I disagree.

Is that fair or completely off base?

Although, my perception is that a significant percentage of Christians believe that prayer can effect actual results, which is ludicrous to me for reasons mentioned in my first post. So I still don’t and possibly never will understand that group, and that’s where I get borderline angry when people are told that prayer will help a tragedy.

 

Absolutely.  I can't claim to understand it really.  I was raised Methodist and wasn't taught much of the outrageous shit you got from the fundamentalists. Hell, I took sex Ed at church for fucks sake.  It was overall a pretty positive experience.

Even so, I fell away from it as many or most do.  But came back to a spirituality through recovery from alcoholism through AA.  As is known, it is a program founded on "religious" principles, but the founders, despite using "God" and letting religion infiltrate it, also distilled it into basic principles common to most world religions that can be and are called just basic "spirituality," or "getting in touch with the universe" or pick your metaphysical metaphor, or God or Allah or Buddha or whatever.  For me, personally, the whole Christian God thing is just easier to wrap my head around than some of the other new-agey things it could be called.

So, looking back, I see a whole lot of the positives even in the church-raising I received, in what I consider one of the more intelligent denominations and although at a mighty-whitey church, was blessed with excellent, intelligent, insightful and compassionate clergy.

But yeah, prayer or meditation is "getting right with the world."  And that isn't praying for outcomes or prosperity, but for the strength and understanding to endure whatever it is we are confronted with.  And as alluded to earlier, that really often takes the form of "what do I do next, what is the next right thing"?

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Posted

Prayer isn’t passive. 
prayer goes hand in hand with deeds. And being about as Jesus like as you can. 
I fight all the time with God like Job did. I see nothing wrong with this. What I see wrong is people putting platitudes on their walls while acting the opposite, judging others while claiming they do not. 
I believe in God. And Jesus. 
I believe in free will. I also believe that having free will allows for all sorts of shit to happen. 
I also believe we get warnings we don’t heed and when disasters happen many people pretend they didn’t see those warnings. 
that’s not how it works. God is here. But expecting him to make a miracle over campers who have already passed away before we even knew they were missing isn’t in the cards. 
 

my two cents. I don’t go out driving on ice 90 mph not wearing a seatbelt and then slam on the breaks shouting “Jesus take the wheel.” The tragedy at Mystic imo was 100% preventable. None of the other camps in session lost one person. I can blame any number of failures: the mentality of the county, our state government and whatever the hell was going on that night at Mystic where they didn’t move the campers as a precautionary measure before it was too late: that’s not on God. That’s on us. 

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Posted

Nicole Im having similar thoughts but Im leaving the door open for unique circumstances. Its sounding to me like debris got caught up in some trees or something and created dual prong fingers of very directed rushing water, and the left part of that water went straight into Bubble Inn. On the right side they lost one of the twins cabins but the other right next to it wasnt in the direct laser path of rushing water. 

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Posted
2 hours ago, wild_turkey said:


Although, my perception is that a significant percentage of Christians believe that prayer can effect actual results, which is ludicrous to me for reasons mentioned in my first post. So I still don’t and possibly never will understand that group, and that’s where I get borderline angry when people are told that prayer will help a tragedy.

 

Insensitive asshole here, but there's a thing I've seen the last 48 hours I just can't quite wrap my head around:

I've seen god knows how many "prayer warrior" posts the past few days, 99.9% from women, including  a lot by women I know, that seem convinced if they post on social media that they're praying hard enough, they can literally cause rescue to occur.  Like Stringer said in his post earlier, it's as if here's a finite prayer threshold that must be met before a miraculous outcome can be granted.

I absolutely understand the benefit (and inherent goodness) of having friends express genuine, heartfelt sympathy, but this ain't it.

Posted
6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Absolutely.  I can't claim to understand it really.  I was raised Methodist and wasn't taught much of the outrageous shit you got from the fundamentalists. Hell, I took sex Ed at church for fucks sake.  It was overall a pretty positive experience.

Even so, I fell away from it as many or most do.  But came back to a spirituality through recovery from alcoholism through AA.  As is known, it is a program founded on "religious" principles, but the founders, despite using "God" and letting religion infiltrate it, also distilled it into basic principles common to most world religions that can be and are called just basic "spirituality," or "getting in touch with the universe" or pick your metaphysical metaphor, or God or Allah or Buddha or whatever.  For me, personally, the whole Christian God thing is just easier to wrap my head around than some of the other new-agey things it could be called.

So, looking back, I see a whole lot of the positives even in the church-raising I received, in what I consider one of the more intelligent denominations and although at a mighty-whitey church, was blessed with excellent, intelligent, insightful and compassionate clergy.

But yeah, prayer or meditation is "getting right with the world."  And that isn't praying for outcomes or prosperity, but for the strength and understanding to endure whatever it is we are confronted with.  And as alluded to earlier, that really often takes the form of "what do I do next, what is the next right thing"?

Whoa now, Joel Osteen and all the Ed Young’s, and their equivalents Dallas and their literally millions of followers in Texas alone need you to pump the breaks right there. 
 

Posted

As has been pointed out, there's a lot of "virtue-signalling" surrounding prayer these days. And I don't think Jesus would approve.  I bet if you looked at the history of Christianity, you'd find public declarations of "I'll pray for you" and "We should pray for them" outside of a church service or function to be rare.  I'm guessing this became popular during the era of tent revivals and such.

And, I might need to elaborate on "the next right thing."  For some that may sound like you're asking for help on whether or not to eat those klobasniki in the work fridge or some dumb "moral" question like that.  And, at some level, it might be, especially for the newb, or the young.

But it's a meditation on what's going on in your life and those around you, what's good (gratitude), what's bad and you need help with.  And when you do it, things sometimes come to you that might not otherwise when you're all torqued up about something, you start finding you have a clarity that you didn't before.  If nothing else, it helps keep you from just moving from one emergency or shitshow to another.

Now, whether that is prayer to a divinity, or just meditation or reflection, a divine intervention, or just maximally good use of the human mind and body is a question I leave up to you.  But damned if it doesn't work for a lot of folks.

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

As has been pointed out, there's a lot of "virtue-signalling" surrounding prayer these days. And I don't think Jesus would approve.  I bet if you looked at the history of Christianity, you'd find public declarations of "I'll pray for you" and "We should pray for them" outside of a church service or function to be rare.  I'm guessing this became popular during the era of tent revivals and such.

And, I might need to elaborate on "the next right thing."  For some that may sound like you're asking for help on whether or not to eat those klobasniki in the work fridge or some dumb "moral" question like that.  And, at some level, it might be, especially for the newb, or the young.

But it's a meditation on what's going on in your life and those around you, what's good (gratitude), what's bad and you need help with.  And when you do it, things sometimes come to you that might not otherwise when you're all torqued up about something, you start finding you have a clarity that you didn't before.  If nothing else, it helps keep you from just moving from one emergency or shitshow to another.

Now, whether that is prayer to a divinity, or just meditation or reflection, a divine intervention, or just maximally good use of the human mind and body is a question I leave up to you.  But damned if it doesn't work for a lot of folks.

100% this (in my belief).

Edited by Vegas64
Posted

I pray.
I pray by acting. Because Christianity isn’t a faith, belief, or label. It’s a fucking WAY. It’s not something you say, it’s something you DO.
The most meaningful prayer isn’t done with your hands folded. It’s done with your hands in motion, feeding, helping, holding, DOING.
What we have in American Christianity? It’s 99% performative bullshit done to absolve the powerful of any responsibility or obligation to actually use their hands to HELP others. Prayer is doing “for the least of these.” In America, prayer is saying meaningless words while working to hurt the least of these. In other words, the opposite of “the way.”
I hate American prayer.

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Posted
5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

As has been pointed out, there's a lot of "virtue-signalling" surrounding prayer these days. And I don't think Jesus would approve.

Not like there's a parable explicitly about that or anything lol.

11 hours ago, Storm the Field said:

Insensitive asshole here, but there's a thing I've seen the last 48 hours I just can't quite wrap my head around:

I've seen god knows how many "prayer warrior" posts the past few days, 99.9% from women, including  a lot by women I know, that seem convinced if they post on social media that they're praying hard enough, they can literally cause rescue to occur.  Like Stringer said in his post earlier, it's as if here's a finite prayer threshold that must be met before a miraculous outcome can be granted.

I absolutely understand the benefit (and inherent goodness) of having friends express genuine, heartfelt sympathy, but this ain't it.

My biggest issue is that the State is advocating for prayer over implementation of meaningful flood alert and warning systems. Can't spend a million on sirens, but can find billions for hateful projects that are quickly abandoned. But please keep praying!!!!

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Posted
1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Not like there's a parable explicitly about that or anything lol.

My biggest issue is that the State is advocating for prayer over implementation of meaningful flood alert and warning systems. Can't spend a million on sirens, but can find billions for hateful projects that are quickly abandoned. But please keep praying!!!!

Is it the state, or the people? Chicken, or the egg?

Quote

 

In an interview, Rob Kelly, the Kerr County judge and its most senior elected official, said the county did not have a warning system because such systems are expensive, and local residents are resistant to new spending.

“Taxpayers won’t pay for it,” Mr. Kelly said. Asked if people might reconsider in light of the catastrophe, he said, “I don’t know.”

 

 

Posted
4 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Is it the state, or the people? Chicken, or the egg?

The same man who said we should all be doing is praying, is the same man who unilaterally authorized billions for a border wall project that has since been abandoned unfinished. There's money available, but that would be admitting that the climate has changed and become more dangerous for Texans.

But I'll leave further comments for a more appropriate thread.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, bolverk said:

I recall a study a few years ago that showed hospital patients tended to fare worse when they knew people were praying for them. If I remember correctly, they hypothesized that it made patients feel stressed and/or have “performance anxiety” about their recovery. Of course, these weren’t hospice patients being questioned about their belief in a god.

From the experience I gained taking care of my mom for a few months when she was getting hospice care, I think her devout belief did give her some comfort, knowing that she would soon pass and be with my dad.

So maybe the takeaway is don’t expect god or prayers to intercede in whether you get well or sick or live or die, except to make you feel more mentally prepared in the end. 

I'm fine with this, I just wish this was how it was preached. I was at my aunt's funeral last week, she was very devout Catholic, we did a Rosary, full mass, etc. I haven't attended Catholic church in more than 10 years except for family stuff when necessary. I got the feeling that the prayers were to help those in the room feel better during a tough time and I appreciated that part of the ceremony. I just hate that its not taught that way and that religious people especially in the US not only act so shitty to each other but expressly mention their religion while doing so. The last Catholic church service I attended was my neice's confirmation a few years ago. The priest included a lecture on how they will be persecuted for their beliefs and called outcasts for standing by them and to be strong. This was of course directly related to signs all over the lobby to vote against a state constitutional amendment on abortion rights. The last Catholic service I volutnarily attended included a recorded lecture from the Bishop not so vaguely urging support for a state constitutional amendment on fetal "personhood" which of course means anti-abortion. It made me physically ill having to listen to that bullshit in both circumstances. The US Bishops Association (or whatever its called) is pubicly supportive of laws in Oklahoma allowing for taxpayer funded Catholic charter school. Fuck all of it, bunch of fucking charlatans.

Edited by 'stache
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Posted

I did want to mention a miracle of sorts amidst all the rescues that have already happened (I think sadly we all know our missing campers were long gone before we even knew to pray for them): the 1:30 am lightning/thunder. 
several campers spoke of this and counselors have too in various interviews. It was obviously close and super loud and woke all the campers up. And it was this loud noise that may have saved many lives as it appears unfortunately many were in harm’s way. I wish they all could have been spared, we all do. I just pray for everyone who lost someone in the floods this weekend. 🙏🏼❤️‍🩹💔

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Posted
12 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

I did want to mention a miracle of sorts amidst all the rescues that have already happened (I think sadly we all know our missing campers were long gone before we even knew to pray for them): the 1:30 am lightning/thunder. 
several campers spoke of this and counselors have too in various interviews. It was obviously close and super loud and woke all the campers up. And it was this loud noise that may have saved many lives as it appears unfortunately many were in harm’s way. I wish they all could have been spared, we all do. I just pray for everyone who lost someone in the floods this weekend. 🙏🏼❤️‍🩹💔

The thunderclap being sent from God reminded me of this joke:

Quote

A big storm approaches. The weatherman urges everyone to get out of town. The priest says, "I won't worry, God will save me".

The morning of the storm, the police go through the neighborhood with a sound truck telling everyone to evacuate. The priest says "I won't worry, God will save me".

The storm drains back up and there is an inch of water standing in the street. A fire truck comes by to pick up the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."

The water rises another foot. A National Guard truck comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."

The water rises some more. The priest is forced up to his roof. A boat comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."

The water rises higher. The priest is forced up to the very top of his roof. A helicopter comes to rescue the priest. He shouts up at them "Don't worry, God will save me."

The water rises above his house, and the priest drowns.

When he gets up to heaven he says to God "I've been your faithful servant ever since I was born! Why didn't you save me?"

God replies "First I sent you a fire truck, then the national guard, then a boat, and then a helicopter. What more do you want from me!!??"

 

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Posted
7 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Whoa now, Joel Osteen and all the Ed Young’s, and their equivalents Dallas and their literally millions of followers in Texas alone need you to pump the breaks right there. 
 

Eh, Ed Jr's not really a prosperity gospel guy.  His church is more for seekers and he's a very effective and creative pastor. 

Joel is prosperity for certain.  I've watched many of his sermons and have never heard him once talk about sin but he routinely talks about giving to the church and what it brings back to you.  

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Posted
1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I pray.
I pray by acting. Because Christianity isn’t a faith, belief, or label. It’s a fucking WAY. It’s not something you say, it’s something you DO.
The most meaningful prayer isn’t done with your hands folded. It’s done with your hands in motion, feeding, helping, holding, DOING.
What we have in American Christianity? It’s 99% performative bullshit done to absolve the powerful of any responsibility or obligation to actually use their hands to HELP others. Prayer is doing “for the least of these.” In America, prayer is saying meaningless words while working to hurt the least of these. In other words, the opposite of “the way.”
I hate American prayer.

I take my faith seriously, as in it’s the most important thing in my life. I really do feel that way, but as I get older I realize what an absolute disaster of a Christian I am. If you use golf as an analogy, I’m struggling every day to break 100. 
 

But I sure do know a lot of people who think they’re scratch golfers and I never even see them pick up a club. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

Eh, Ed Jr's not really a prosperity gospel guy.  His church is more for seekers and he's a very effective and creative pastor. 

Joel is prosperity for certain.  I've watched many of his sermons and have never heard him once talk about sin but he routinely talks about giving to the church and what it brings back to you.  

He owns/runs a megachurch and flaunts cars, private jets, et al. I don't really care if he doesn't explicitly say "Give money to me and you'll get money from God" in his shit, in my book, he's a prosperity gospel preacher. 

Then again, to be fair, I'd also cross out "very effective and creative pastor" as entirely your opinion. In my opinion he's yet another grifter and huckster wrapping his wealth seeking in the cloak of Jesus on the backs/wallets of people looking for spiritual fulfillment.

You might disagree with how I define prosperity gospel, as I disagree with what I consider to be a "Creative and Effective Preacher," so I guess both of our opinions are allowed to differ. He seems like a real peach, though. 

https://trinityfi.org/accountability/ed-youngs-toxic-church-business-practices-and-mergers-infect-second-baptist-houston-and-other-churches/

Edited by SydneyCarton
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Posted
9 minutes ago, BlackCat said:

I take my faith seriously, as in it’s the most important thing in my life. I really do feel that way, but as I get older I realize what an absolute disaster of a Christian I am. If you use golf as an analogy, I’m struggling every day to break 100. 
 

But I sure do know a lot of people who think they’re scratch golfers and I never even see them pick up a club. 

That's called humility. And humility is the only currency that spends in God's kingdom.

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Posted
4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

He owns/runs a megachurch and flaunts cars, private jets, et al. I don't really care if he doesn't explicitly say "Give money to me and you'll get money from God" in his shit, in my book, he's a prosperity gospel preacher. 

Then again, to be fair, I'd also cross out "very effective and creative pastor" as entirely your opinion. In my opinion he's yet another grifter and huckster wrapping his wealth seeking in the cloak of Jesus on the backs/wallets of people looking for spiritual fulfillment.

You might disagree with how I define prosperity gospel, as I disagree with what I consider to be a "Creative and Effective Preacher," so I guess both of our opinions are allowed to differ. He seems like a real peach, though. 

https://trinityfi.org/accountability/ed-youngs-toxic-church-business-practices-and-mergers-infect-second-baptist-houston-and-other-churches/

Agreed.  Different opinions are okay. 

I ran the ushers for the second service at the downtown FC so I've met Ed and Lisa plenty of times.  Nice enough to me when we interacted.  Met my wife there nearly 17 years ago.

Creative in that he tackles many topics almost all pastors avoid and often does so outside of the pulpit. He gets props for bringing in the Natcha Boy in for a sermon.  He used to do a summer series called At The Movies and would relate the movie to something biblical.

Effective in that his messages relate well to the masses seeking to understand or learn more about Christ as witnessed by the number of attendees in person and online.  

Posted

honest question: is there another thread here where it would be more appropriate to speak freely on religion, and to challenge religious beliefs, in as respectful a way as possible? because i have about a thousand things i want to say and ask about this:

IMG_6677.thumb.jpeg.77795fe7a5d790c5d786dbe18f414c87.jpeg

but i don’t want to come into this thread and just start a giant shit show in what i’m assuming is supposed to be a place for christians to gather and talk about their faith. 

without diving into it too far, i’ll just say that  the screenshot above seems blatantly cultish and wildly self deluded to a non believer like me. i truly cannot comprehend how people can make themselves believe that jesus christ was in the flood waters with the small children as they violently drowned in the dark. it’s so obviously insane to me that i’m really at a loss that so many millions and millions of people, many of whom i know, love, respect, and admire, will believe the assertion in this IG post to be as real as the air that they breathe or their family who they can see and touch. i’d be interested in hearing the rationale for this type of belief, but again, not if it means turning this thread upside down. i’d rather just start a new thread if that’s the case.

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

Agreed.  Different opinions are okay. 

I ran the ushers for the second service at the downtown FC so I've met Ed and Lisa plenty of times.  Nice enough to me when we interacted.  Met my wife there nearly 17 years ago.

Creative in that he tackles many topics almost all pastors avoid and often does so outside of the pulpit. He gets props for bringing in the Natcha Boy in for a sermon.  He used to do a summer series called At The Movies and would relate the movie to something biblical.

Effective in that his messages relate well to the masses seeking to understand or learn more about Christ as witnessed by the number of attendees in person and online.  

So you worshipped there and you met your wife there, I’m sure you’re not at all predisposed towards thinking the place and people running it are great. Because our very nature as humans fights tooth and nail to not think we’ve been duped, and after all, look at how it changed your life, right? 
 

It’s so funny, what you just described to me was an effective and creative swindler who is great at entertaining people while he separates them from their money. Movies and Ric Flair certainly speak to large swaths of people. Hell, so does the WWE in general. Would you say Ed Young and Vince McMahon have a lot in common?

Edited by SydneyCarton
Posted
1 hour ago, Derka said:

honest question: is there another thread here where it would be more appropriate to speak freely on religion, and to challenge religious beliefs, in as respectful a way as possible? because i have about a thousand things i want to say and ask about this:

IMG_6677.thumb.jpeg.77795fe7a5d790c5d786dbe18f414c87.jpeg

but i don’t want to come into this thread and just start a giant shit show in what i’m assuming is supposed to be a place for christians to gather and talk about their faith. 

without diving into it too far, i’ll just say that  the screenshot above seems blatantly cultish and wildly self deluded to a non believer like me. i truly cannot comprehend how people can make themselves believe that jesus christ was in the flood waters with the small children as they violently drowned in the dark. it’s so obviously insane to me that i’m really at a loss that so many millions and millions of people, many of whom i know, love, respect, and admire, will believe the assertion in this IG post to be as real as the air that they breathe or their family who they can see and touch. i’d be interested in hearing the rationale for this type of belief, but again, not if it means turning this thread upside down. i’d rather just start a new thread if that’s the case.

Have you ever heard Christians say “To live is Christ, to die is gain”?

I think a lot of the answers to questions non-Christians have reverts back to a fundamental precept: salvation that leads to eternal life, in the sense of the literal infinite is near-infinitely more important and real than the temporal life we think we are leading here on earth, for the 80 or so years we have the physical and material experience.

For me, there is a lot of hope and peace in knowing that the suffering, no matter how gruesome or horrible the death, leads to the next, undying life.

As the Good Book and like the old hymnal said, “O death, where is your sting?”

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Posted
33 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

So you worshipped there and you met your wife there, I’m sure you’re not at all predisposed towards thinking the place and people running it are great. Because our very nature as humans fights tooth and nail to not think we’ve been duped, and after all, look at how it changed your life, right? 
 

It’s so funny, what you just described to me was an effective and creative swindler who is great at entertaining people while he separates them from their money. Movies and Ric Flair certainly speak to large swaths of people. Hell, so does the WWE in general. Would you say Ed Young and Vince McMahon have a lot in common?

You are referring to what I got out of corporate worship.  Do i think coffee bars and bookstores should be in churches, no.  FC had its time and place, just like the other churches I have called home during my life.  I pour more into our small groups and my daily prayer life than just the sermon on Sundays once a week.

 

To a degree yes, they are both promoters of differing things.  Both of whom have questionable business practices.  

Posted
Have you ever heard Christians say “To live is Christ, to die is gain”?
I think a lot of the answers to questions non-Christians have reverts back to a fundamental precept: salvation that leads to eternal life, in the sense of the literal infinite is near-infinitely more important and real than the temporal life we think we are leading here on earth, for the 80 or so years we have the physical and material experience.
For me, there is a lot of hope and peace in knowing that the suffering, no matter how gruesome or horrible the death, leads to the next, undying life.
As the Good Book and like the old hymnal said, “O death, where is your sting?”

That is such a cop out and such shitty theology. If all that matters is the great beyond - and that’s EXACTLY the structure that theology builds - then it excuses all manner of evil here, and absolves you of all responsibility to build “the kingdom here on earth.”
When someone suffers and dies, a response of “it’s for the best, they’re in a better place” enables more suffering.
I hate that image Derka posted: it excuses all manner of evil. I hate the “nothing matters, because what really matters is our heavenly reward” because it allows you to check out on your duty to give yourself in service of your fellow man.
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Posted
3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


That is such a cop out and such shitty theology. If all that matters is the great beyond - and that’s EXACTLY the structure that theology builds - then it excuses all manner of evil here, and absolves you of all responsibility to build “the kingdom here on earth.”
When someone suffers and dies, a response of “it’s for the best, they’re in a better place” enables more suffering.
I hate that image Derka posted: it excuses all manner of evil. I hate the “nothing matters, because what really matters is our heavenly reward” because it allows you to check out on your duty to give yourself in service of your fellow man.

Sorry, I should have clarified this was in response to the specific prompt from Derka asking how to reconcile God/Jesus and knowing (allowing) death that is, to our way of thinking and being, all together tragic. This part below (quoted).

Of course, you are completely right, just because what I’ve said can be true to someone doesn’t absolve them of responsibility and one shouldn’t allow for evil to prosper and woe to the Christians who do. 

Quote

i truly cannot comprehend how people can make themselves believe that jesus christ was in the flood waters with the small children as they violently drowned in the dark. it’s so obviously insane to me that i’m really at a loss that so many millions and millions of people, many of whom i know, love, respect, and admire, will believe the assertion in this IG post to be as real as the air that they breathe or their family who they can see and touch. i’d be interested in hearing the rationale for this type of belief

 

Posted
46 minutes ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

You are referring to what I got out of corporate worship.  Do i think coffee bars and bookstores should be in churches, no.  FC had its time and place, just like the other churches I have called home during my life.  I pour more into our small groups and my daily prayer life than just the sermon on Sundays once a week.

 

To a degree yes, they are both promoters of differing things.  Both of whom have questionable business practices.  

Good for you. I know a couple Christians here who do really walk the walk. They study, they serve in the community A LOT, they live good lives, raise good children. You sound similar to them. 
 

that being said, if you do think Ed Young had questionable business practices, why did you feel the need to defend the guy on this thread initially? Shouldn’t shady business practices be a black mark for a preacher?

Posted
1 hour ago, Derka said:

start a new thread

Fire it up.

I've got thoughts about other religions that have to deal with the random ass bullshit of existence just like the rest of us over here in Christian land. And I'm saying that as someone that just reaffirmed his beliefs to join the Presbyterians because the Baptists don't recognize anyone else as having it right so there's no saying to them, "Hey, he's going over here now." Fwiw the same thing applies to the Catholic guy that was sitting next to me at the session.

I got thoughts about old Abraham Heschel and Lao Tzu that probably belong in a different thread.

But, while I'm here. The OT has more than a few souls that wrestled with the idea of a just and loving God when confronted with the people around them. There's a reason why the Cistercian Father had us read No Exit in our last year. We had already made the journey with Dante through all nine circles of Hell, might as well take a look at Sartre's version too. 

Zechariah got up there to get ready for the questions back. Job got it out of a tornado.

George Washington Carver wanted to know everything there is to know about plants.

It's too much little man, but I will tell you about the peanut.

That's how big it all is. I don't know much of anything. But, I do know to help other people and don't brag about it.

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Posted
22 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

 


Thanks, Twice. I always appreciate your posts on everything.

Regarding the bolded part, and I’ve seen a couple of similar explanations, would you say prayer could be treated more as meditation or a coping mechanism? A way of personally processing life’s hardships?

If a person firmly believes their version of God exists, then someone is listening, even if the response to prayer is unclear. If a person doesn’t believe in God, then people who pray are basically talking to themselves, but at least it helps them feel better or less alone in the world. I’m probably in the latter camp at this point but I can kinda understand the former camp even if I disagree.

Is that fair or completely off base?

Although, my perception is that a significant percentage of Christians believe that prayer can effect actual results, which is ludicrous to me for reasons mentioned in my first post. So I still don’t and possibly never will understand that group, and that’s where I get borderline angry when people are told that prayer will help a tragedy.

I would say this all varies by different sects within Christianity. A lot of it has to do with a particular sect's theology.

For example, the Reformed practice theological determinism where God is sovereign and immutable. They do practice prayers of intercession and supplication but it's very similar to Augustinian prayer and more about gaining understanding to one's alignment with God's will rather than asking for a favor. 

Prayer is meant to be meditative in most Christian sects. Prayer is meant to be reflective on God and scripture and introspective through confession and aligning one's behavior to God's attributes and scripture. This is the practice in most forms of Christianity. 

 

Quote

Although, my perception is that a significant percentage of Christians believe that prayer can effect actual results, which is ludicrous to me for reasons mentioned in my first post. So I still don’t and possibly never will understand that group, and that’s where I get borderline angry when people are told that prayer will help a tragedy.

This practice is limited to a minority of Christian sects that happen to be the most vocal.

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Posted
This practice is limited to a minority of Christian sects that happen to be the most vocal.

The most vocal…and also completely in charge of the Texas and US government. That part’s really important.
Posted
8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


The most vocal…and also completely in charge of the Texas and US government. That part’s really important.

That is a feature not a bug. 

Posted
Good for you. I know a couple Christians here who do really walk the walk. They study, they serve in the community A LOT, they live good lives, raise good children. You sound similar to them. 
 
that being said, if you do think Ed Young had questionable business practices, why did you feel the need to defend the guy on this thread initially? Shouldn’t shady business practices be a black mark for a preacher?

I can’t speak to his or Vince McMahon’s business practices as I’m not part of those dealings or conversations. I met and talked with him on a conversational level.
Heresay from ex employees in M&A( which is what I do FT) doesn’t mean much to me. Business is brutal in or out of the church
Posted (edited)

I may be misunderstanding what’s being said here, or it may be a case of people from different backgrounds using the same word with subtly (or wildly) different meanings.

The idea that prayer can have tangible results in changing the outcome of events (what I would call intercessory prayer from my background), surely must be a position held by the majority of Christians. This is distinct from the signs and wonders stuff you’ll see in more charismatic churches, which is probably a minority view. It’s also distinct from the performative whitewashed tomb on your TV. 

I’ve been in many different churches of many different denominations, and I’m struggling to think of an example of prayer being treated as solely a form of meditation or a spiritual exercise. People ask God to help others in need. Sometimes that community has the resources to be that answer to prayer, sometimes they don’t, but they ask God to act.

There’s a pretty strong case that at least most of the writers of the Bible believed that prayers can tangibly change things, not just in a spiritual way. Reading the teachings of Jesus on prayer, while He’s more often focused on our inner lives, asking God to affect specific change to specific situations is certainly present.

You certainly can spiritualize “you have not because you ask not,” or the parable of the persistent widow, or Abraham negotiating with God, or the book of James talking about the effective prayer of a righteous person, but I suspect the folks who wrote those things were talking about more than good vibes and finding inner peace. Writings about the early church noted that they worshipped Jesus as God. That’s not a metaphor.

I guess you can overlay a theology or philosophy related to an all-knowing God that can muddy the waters, but that doesn’t really change what all those praying people are trying to do.

Edited by Mole
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Posted

Darkness and Doubt

Above all, there was a sense of distance from God, what the sixteenth century Spanish monk John of the Cross called the “dark night of the soul” or the sense that the “heavens were like brass” bouncing back any prayer sent heavenward. Lewis says,

 

But go to Him when your need is desperable, when all other help is vain, and what do you find? A door slammed in your face, and a sound of bolting and double-bolting on the inside. After that, silence.

 

Worse than that, there were doubts about the goodness of God. It wasn’t that Lewis was in any danger of becoming an atheist: “The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about Him. The conclusion I dread is not, ‘So there’s no God after all,’ but, ‘So this is what God’s really like. Deceive yourself no longer.’”

---I can't just leave it there

 

This smashing even applies to some of our questions. Some of our questions are unanswerable, at least in the way we ask them. Lewis says:

When I lay these questions before God, I get no answer. But rather, a special kind of ‘no answer.’ It is not the locked door. It is more like a silent, certainly not uncompassionate, gaze. As though He shook His head not in refusal but waiving the question. Like, ‘Peace, child; you don’t understand.’ . . . Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable. How many hours are there in a mile? Is yellow square or round? Probably half the questions we ask—half our great theological and metaphysical problems—are like that.

---

 

It is hoped that these insights might be helpful, although I am aware of the dilemma Lewis described in The Problem of Pain:

All arguments in justification of suffering provoke bitter resentment against the author. You would like to know how I behave when I am experiencing pain, not writing books about it.

When we all experience pain, a little courage helps more (Lewis observes) than much knowledge, a little human sympathy more than much courage, and the least tincture of the love of God more than all.

https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/resources/c-s-lewis-on-grief/

Posted
8 hours ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:


I can’t speak to his or Vince McMahon’s business practices as I’m not part of those dealings or conversations. I met and talked with him on a conversational level.
Heresay from ex employees in M&A( which is what I do FT) doesn’t mean much to me. Business is brutal in or out of the church

Except you DID just speak to them and said they seemed shady? 

Posted

I would just like for all of the cults to stop killing each other and being assholes in general. If they want to believe in a sky being - fine - just shut the fuck up about it and leave the other cults alone. More importantly - leave those of us alone that have zero belief in any religion.

Posted
11 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

Have you ever heard Christians say “To live is Christ, to die is gain”?

I think a lot of the answers to questions non-Christians have reverts back to a fundamental precept: salvation that leads to eternal life, in the sense of the literal infinite is near-infinitely more important and real than the temporal life we think we are leading here on earth, for the 80 or so years we have the physical and material experience.

For me, there is a lot of hope and peace in knowing that the suffering, no matter how gruesome or horrible the death, leads to the next, undying life.

As the Good Book and like the old hymnal said, “O death, where is your sting?”

 

11 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


That is such a cop out and such shitty theology. If all that matters is the great beyond - and that’s EXACTLY the structure that theology builds - then it excuses all manner of evil here, and absolves you of all responsibility to build “the kingdom here on earth.”
When someone suffers and dies, a response of “it’s for the best, they’re in a better place” enables more suffering.
I hate that image Derka posted: it excuses all manner of evil. I hate the “nothing matters, because what really matters is our heavenly reward” because it allows you to check out on your duty to give yourself in service of your fellow man.

This very much lines up with the belief that religion was created by the rich and powerful when most of humanity were slaves, surfs, servants, etc., whose lives were dogshit. It gave them a reason to just keep doing the shit work with no path to earthly prosperity because it’ll be totally worth it after you die, often from being worked to death. 

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Posted
9 hours ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:


I can’t speak to his or Vince McMahon’s business practices as I’m not part of those dealings or conversations. I met and talked with him on a conversational level.
Heresay from ex employees in M&A( which is what I do FT) doesn’t mean much to me. Business is brutal in or out of the church

All I will say here is you should probably not be so easily duped by people being nice to your face. Those kinds of people care nothing about anything beyond whatever value they can extract from the people surrounding them.

Posted
Except you DID just speak to them and said they seemed shady? 

Except I didn’t. I said both Vince and Ed have questionable business practices from what is reported. I can’t speak to the authenticity of those reports since I would only be making decisions based on one side of the report.
Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:


Except I didn’t. I said both Vince and Ed have questionable business practices from what is reported. I can’t speak to the authenticity of those reports since I would only be making decisions based on one side of the report.

Does that mean that there's no amount of evidence that can convince you of anything or make you question anything unless it's first-hand evidence? 

And no, you didn't say "from what is reported." You said:
 

Quote

To a degree yes, they are both promoters of differing things.  Both of whom have questionable business practices.

 

Edited by SydneyCarton
Posted
11 hours ago, Mole said:

I may be misunderstanding what’s being said here, or it may be a case of people from different backgrounds using the same word with subtly (or wildly) different meanings.

The idea that prayer can have tangible results in changing the outcome of events (what I would call intercessory prayer from my background), surely must be a position held by the majority of Christians. This is distinct from the signs and wonders stuff you’ll see in more charismatic churches, which is probably a minority view. It’s also distinct from the performative whitewashed tomb on your TV. 

I’ve been in many different churches of many different denominations, and I’m struggling to think of an example of prayer being treated as solely a form of meditation or a spiritual exercise. People ask God to help others in need. Sometimes that community has the resources to be that answer to prayer, sometimes they don’t, but they ask God to act.

There’s a pretty strong case that at least most of the writers of the Bible believed that prayers can tangibly change things, not just in a spiritual way. Reading the teachings of Jesus on prayer, while He’s more often focused on our inner lives, asking God to affect specific change to specific situations is certainly present.

You certainly can spiritualize “you have not because you ask not,” or the parable of the persistent widow, or Abraham negotiating with God, or the book of James talking about the effective prayer of a righteous person, but I suspect the folks who wrote those things were talking about more than good vibes and finding inner peace. Writings about the early church noted that they worshipped Jesus as God. That’s not a metaphor.

I guess you can overlay a theology or philosophy related to an all-knowing God that can muddy the waters, but that doesn’t really change what all those praying people are trying to do.

I was thinking a lot of this as well-- I don't know anyone who uses prayer for mindfulness or inner peace or meditation. I'm sure that exists, just is foreign to me. I think of prayer as the way we are in communication and relationship with our creator Lord God. Does he need us to pray to him? Of course not. But in a relational sense, he wants us to.

Jesus teaches us how to pray in the NT-- and with it comes a request.

The parable of the presistent widow was the first place my mind went. 

More than just "ask in my name you shall receive", prayer is both active and in motion, as well as quiet and in solitude. For even Jesus modeled what fervent prayer looked like in the Garden of Gethsemane.

And the second place was Paul's "pray unceasingly", in that it isn't a rote mechanical behavior you just do before you eat. You remain abiding in Christ when you remain in prayer without ceasing.

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" is another quote I think about when it comes to prayer.

@Derka not sure if any of that helps if you aren't steeped in the word and abiding in Christ-- I think it would certainly be gibberish to me as well if I were not a believer, but there is an attempt at scratching just the surface of Christian prayer.

As it relates to mourning, 1st Thessalonians 4:13-14 is a guide for Christian believers to help in mourning and with grief:

Quote

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

 

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Posted

It's worth pointing out that Jesus Himself prayed for the impending crucifixion to be avoided if there was any other way, followed by "nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 36: 39).  You know He knew the answer, but he prayed it anyway.  Prayer is nowhere near a free hall pass out of hard times.  It's more of a way through hard times.

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Posted
19 minutes ago, SurlyGator said:

It's worth pointing out that Jesus Himself prayed for the impending crucifixion to be avoided if there was any other way, followed by "nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 36: 39).  You know He knew the answer, but he prayed it anyway.  Prayer is nowhere near a free hall pass out of hard times.  It's more of a way through hard times.

An honest prayer I've heard is not "Please Lord take this from me" but rather, "Please Lord give me the strength to endure this".

But then again, there are angles where prayer is shown as a miraculous intercession (hall pass out of hard times) as you suggest.

Much like with predestination and free will (and actually, most everything in the scriptures), there is language that suggests multiple things exist at once which can seem to our human, temporal and small perspectives and way of thinking as "contradictory".

I'm reminded of quantum mechanics in that way (a singular idea or precept is actually multiple things depending on when and how you "measure" it), which of course makes sense, as God is the author of quantum mechanics as the creator of all (if you believe in God).

Posted
On 7/6/2025 at 8:34 PM, Willfully Horn said:

A friend worked as a hospice nurse. She claimed that religious patients generally had an easier passing than non-religious types. I think calls for prayers are meant to assuage, not to affect change.

I agree. I have been an atheist since grade school and am also dealing with a terminal cancer diagnosis. You get A LOT of people telling you that they are praying for you. I always just thank them and continue on because I know that's just their way of lending support. In one of the more memorable instances I was on the waitlist for a surgery while admitted to the hospital. I had spent a day in pain and a spot was finally open at like 2am. The next day the nurse that had cared for me the previous day told me he prayed for me that night that I'd be able to get the surgery quickly and relieve the pain. The thoughtfulness and empathy impacted me greatly even though I have no belief of that prayer doing anything. 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, seven said:

I agree. I have been an atheist since grade school and am also dealing with a terminal cancer diagnosis. You get A LOT of people telling you that they are praying for you. I always just thank them and continue on because I know that's just their way of lending support. In one of the more memorable instances I was on the waitlist for a surgery while admitted to the hospital. I had spent a day in pain and a spot was finally open at like 2am. The next day the nurse that had cared for me the previous day told me he prayed for me that night that I'd be able to get the surgery quickly and relieve the pain. The thoughtfulness and empathy impacted me greatly even though I have no belief of that prayer doing anything. 

Good post, though painful to read. I wish for you every blessing.

Edited by Willfully Horn
Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

I was thinking a lot of this as well-- I don't know anyone who uses prayer for mindfulness or inner peace or meditation. I'm sure that exists, just is foreign to me. I think of prayer as the way we are in communication and relationship with our creator Lord God. Does he need us to pray to him? Of course not. But in a relational sense, he wants us to.

Jesus teaches us how to pray in the NT-- and with it comes a request.

The parable of the presistent widow was the first place my mind went. 

More than just "ask in my name you shall receive", prayer is both active and in motion, as well as quiet and in solitude. For even Jesus modeled what fervent prayer looked like in the Garden of Gethsemane.

And the second place was Paul's "pray unceasingly", in that it isn't a rote mechanical behavior you just do before you eat. You remain abiding in Christ when you remain in prayer without ceasing.

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" is another quote I think about when it comes to prayer.

@Derka not sure if any of that helps if you aren't steeped in the word and abiding in Christ-- I think it would certainly be gibberish to me as well if I were not a believer, but there is an attempt at scratching just the surface of Christian prayer.

As it relates to mourning, 1st Thessalonians 4:13-14 is a guide for Christian believers to help in mourning and with grief:

 

The bold is where it falls apart for me and I think has it backward. You say that it makes sense if you are a believer, but the question in my mind is what objective basis is there to believe this particular version of religion? Most religious people abide by the religion they were born into and learned from birth. Where it really started to fall apart for me was the question as to why I was supposed to believe that Catholicism was correct and everyone else was wrong, especially when it comes to the billions of people who were raised non Christian like Judaism and Islam, and even moreso for non Abrahamic religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. There is simply no rational basis to believe that one is correct over another. I have since leaned more into religious study as a historical issue, including its role in shaping society and culture, and am convinced it has done more harm than good overall. In today's America, it's not even close considering how many religious people are full of hatred and vitriol for fellow humans which is the complete opposite of how I learned the teachings of Jesus which objectively, on the whole, is pretty good, love they neighbor, welcome the stranger, turn the other cheek, etc., etc. 

Edited by 'stache
Posted

I personally feel that there are very few if any churches out there that aren't doing something wrong, whether that be doctrinal, or attitudinal.  The best advice I would give anyone is to go back to the source as much as possible.  For me as a Christian, that would be the New Testament first century church, and the example that is provided in those books.  Do what they did, don't do what they didn't do, and focus on living a biblical mindset every day.  If you find that the denomination you are currently attending strays too far away from that example for your comfort level after learning things for yourself, maybe it's time to shop for a new flavor.

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