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Carville: Democrats have a wokeness problem


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2 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I better hear a Mr. HongMao pretty damn quick or else I have my chariot horses trample all y'all.

Latinx is not virtue-signaling. It is took-minimum-requirement-of-Spanish-signaling.

BTW, calling Spanish Spanish is pretty damned oppressive and imperialistic. Those Catalans and Basques and Gallegos are just as damned Spanish as the Castilians. You bastards.

Arrazoi duzu, kabroi mozkor hori.

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And another thing, while we consider Latin, Latino, Latinx.

Pretty sure nobody used any version of that, nor the term Latin America, until the Frenchies maybe under Napoleon III got a mind to shove in to the Indies and compete with ze Rosbif Englishes and Yankees by cobbling up ze solidarity wizz ze Fellow Roman Empire Spanish types (when they weren't invading and murdering them in actual Spain.)

You read a Mexican book from about 1800 (I think there's only one, but it's awesome), you've got Spaniards, Indians, Mulattos, all kind of other mixes. I suppose Latino would only exist in opposition to Anglo, but anyway, it's a late-coming political gambit by the folks who brought you Emperor Maximilian.

Who was way cooler than Nixon. I think he made "Hispanic" official.

We need more Lobos, Moriscos, and Tenteenaires up in here.

And I am not Scotch-Irish. It's Northumbrian, you base thrall.

Edited by RDCanecutter
error ORA-00907
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Just now, David Dennison said:

Hispanic isn't entirely accurate because it doesn't include Brazilians.

I was taught at UT that the word Hispania came from a pre-Latin language and meant "Rabbit Country." (jsyk, Italia was Witalia in an older form of Greek and meant "Calf Country," as in "Veal.")

Brazil was named for the mythical island off to the west of Ireland, Hy-Brasil, and so if anything the Brazilians should lump about moodily, blame the rain on the English, but not be Hispanic.

Except the West Coast Irish claim all sorts of connections with Spain, so maybe they should.

I personally blame the Beaker People. One of those MFs left me a negative review on BronzeBay.

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34 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Pretty sure nobody used any version of that, nor the term Latin America, until the Frenchies maybe under Napoleon III got a mind to shove in to the Indies

Oh, Latin American what-not.

Well moving on, it all seems like cancel culture to me.

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Getting back to the topic, I don't think "wokeness" is a problem.  Dems won both senate seats in Georgia and Biden won by 7 million.  That doesn't sound like a "woke' problem to me.  If people want to say Latinx instead of Hispanic, who gives a shit.  You think wokeness is a major problem or is the party with insurrectionists, radical right wing politicians in Congress, and who think a free and fair election was sToLeN fRoM tRuMp is the major problem. 
Dems don't have a "wokeness problem."  They have a radical Republican problem.  Dems have always had a problem controlling a message and instead letting radical Republicans control the message instead.  It doesn't help that Fox News is radicalizing people left and right as well. 
I also find it funny that radical Republicans go out of there way to use the term "woke" all the time--cruz and cotton seem to use it the most.  I just want to ask them what they think "woke" means and what specifically are they against?  I also want to ask them why they use that word when no one uses that word anymore. 

“Woke” is just the modern term for “political correctness”.

Period.

Go listen to the PC episode of the podcast “You’re Wrong About”. It’s fantastic. This week’s episode is about The (Dixie) Chicks.

Now THAT is a real example of celebrities getting “cancelled” and it wasn’t perpetuated by the left.

It’s all nothing but a middle age white dude moral panic about “EVERYTHING IS CHANGING” and I don’t like because I’m being “forced” to act right.

It’s all garbage right wing crap.
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45 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Getting back to the topic, I don't think "wokeness" is a problem.  Dems won both senate seats in Georgia and Biden won by 7 million. 

And if the Democrats want to do the same in Texas they are going to need a lot more from the people who don't consider themselves Latinx. Carville's point still stands, reach out to the people on their terms if you want to win where it really counts. Let's not kid ourselves, 2020 was a slim victory and there is no reason to think that the Republicans will not be holding the Executive and Legislative branch in 4 years. Despite their embracing of crazy the GOP is still a very marketable product.

Flipping Texas will defang the nationalist populist GOP. Flipping Georgia only delays their grip on power.

Spend the next few years on the ground in the communities. That didn't happen in 2020. FIGHT for massive immigration reform don't just rollback Trump policies. Get fucking rid of ICE. Those Fuckers are just biding their time until the next guy unleashes them.

 

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Latinx always sounds like it should be the name of a nightclub off Lamar and Rundberg. 

I asked my Mexican neighbor if he preferred Mexican, Hispanic, or Latinx.

He said Mexican. 

I'll defer to him. 

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1 hour ago, Pancho said:

Getting back to the topic, I don't think "wokeness" is a problem.  Dems won both senate seats in Georgia and Biden won by 7 million.  That doesn't sound like a "woke' problem to me.  If people want to say Latinx instead of Hispanic, who gives a shit. 

Here's what Carville had to say about that (and I agree with him):

 

We won the White House against a world-historical buffoon. And we came within 42,000 votes of losing. We lost congressional seats. We didn’t pick up state legislatures. So let’s not have an argument about whether or not we’re off-key in our messaging. We are. And we’re off because there’s too much jargon and there’s too much esoterica and it turns people off.

 

Stop convincing yourself that just b/c Biden won that all is well. It isn't. Especially with re-apportionment coming down the pike.

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20 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Here's what Carville had to say about that (and I agree with him):

 

We won the White House against a world-historical buffoon. And we came within 42,000 votes of losing. We lost congressional seats. We didn’t pick up state legislatures. So let’s not have an argument about whether or not we’re off-key in our messaging. We are. And we’re off because there’s too much jargon and there’s too much esoterica and it turns people off.

 

Stop convincing yourself that just b/c Biden won that all is well. It isn't. Especially with re-apportionment coming down the pike.

Carvelle needs to be clearer about who he is scolding since “we” didn’t run on defunding the police and other esoterica. We did what we always do. We allowed Republicans to frame the narrative and found ourselves trying to defend ourselves against it.

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2 hours ago, F250 said:

I've actually experienced a lot of racism in Austin. As a Mexican whitey I've been a fly on the wall with white people my entire life. I am very familiar with the people that look around before making the racist joke. Often I've seen it done with the person not realizing a Mexican was sitting in front of them. When confronted they don't appreciate it. "I thought you were white, I voted for Obama, I'm a Democrat, etc.."

It's not blatant racism but it's racism nonetheless. A good example of this would be all of the Alamo Bowl threads. There are a shit ton of jokes about Mexican families in the cheap seats in just about every fucking Alamo Bowl thread. I've heard the same shit in Austin a million times. Often it will be justified as a joke about San Antonio when in reality it's a joke about Hispanic culture.

Nivek's snide remark about "I'm being repressed" is just more of the same shit. It's an attempt to belittle a legitimate complaint from minorities. I'm sure he justifies it with "But I voted for Biden."

 

 

 

 

 

Lets recap. 

First of all, I earlier asked a question because I have never heard that term before used.  Like Pancho, I read another post about it originating within the LGBTQ sector of Hispanics.  I found it weird you thought it was so offensive especially then you went on some discussion about it being forced upon you without your consent.  I also don't see where anyone is forcing you.  But since I am out of touch, it is entirely possible.  I also found it a bit hypocritical that you immediately went to using labels yourself.   I made a quip about it, and you went bonkers.   Yeah, I needled you a bit after.  You did so back.   More on that below.

Projection.

I don't know who you associate with but you clearly need to pick and choose better crowd.  That story about the Alamo Bowl has fuck all to do with me outside of your projection.  We all have anecdotes.  Here are some of my anecdotes: IME, the most offensive things I heard about Mexicans were from Mexican-Americans.  I am white so many of them thought it was OK to speak like that in front of me.  I heard a Mexican guy make a joke about Cubans drowning trying to get to Florida (knowing I was from there) and other Mexican-American dudes laughed.  It was jarring to me. That also occurred in San Antonio.  I had an older black dude from Seguin call me 'good people' once.  It was nice at first, but then I realized how awful it was later that night (why would someone say that to me for doing my job?).  I have been around a Taiwanese guy who pretended a Chinese coworker of mine was invisible.  I have heard detailed stories from a Pakistani guy about the India-Pakistan race to the bottom.  I have heard shitty things said by whites too.   I also do not associate with them.  From old guys who served in WW2 saying shit about the Japanese to family members cursing Jews.  I have even had a guy compliment me on having 3 kids not knowing he was talking about that replacement shit, not knowing that my family tree tends to branch.  I guess where I have the ultimate white privilege, I can avoid those people.  

I have also unintentionally offended people.  I didn't realize what I said could have been interpreted differently (said every husband).   I have tried to do better.  I stopped using the insult cocksucker because two esteemed members of the board (who post too little) explained it was offensive.  How I never made that connection before and just reflexively used it before embarrassed me.  That picture of the black dudes in all crowded around the pool that used to circulate on the old sites.  I asked Snacks about it in person once.  I wondered if it was a Texas thing.  He kindly explained it succinctly, probably realizing I was just an idiot.   Snacks probably forgot about it.  I did not.   My question was valid, the way I asked it could have been interpreted differently.  Why did I write all of this?  Will you receive what I wrote honestly, or just be dismissive and claim this is a variant of the old  "I have a black friend..." trope.  I am guessing the latter. 

Circling back, the oppressed comment you made I thought was funny.  I replied in kind.  Now, I realize you were being serious.   Yeah, I needled you with the Jackie Chan comment and you fired back.  But then kept building your fantasy in your head of what it all meant.   Then once again you went to labeling trying to brand me a klansman and claiming I am just too smart to say the other stuff out loud.  Maybe this is just me being unaware.   Maybe Monty Python's creator sodomized Latin's and I am unaware of it in that context.    Walden decided to try to join the dogpile.   

I suppose I am not appealing to you but the community at large. 

So let's go with both fucking barrels.   You seem like a horrible person to me. You seek out phantoms to be offended and yet you are perfectly fine with taking advantage of desperate women who are prostitutes with a contract and then 'test them out' and don't even have the courtesy pay them?  But, hey someone out there will exploit them so it might as well be you right?  Possibly, I don't know shit about it outside of a few news articles.  Maybe they are all well adjusted ladies with a penchant for F250's charms.   Maybe that time when I had to arrange for an escort for my Russian girl we had visiting to be essentially guarded because the owner of the oil well was an asshole who made comments about her being a mail order bride or they could work out some arrangement.  Maybe that was you.  After all, you pass for white.  Maybe with all of these projections we can open up a theater together. 

@elfenix  In S. Florida, people did use the term Latin not Latino not Latina. One of the gangs at my HS included the Latin Kings, maybe they were very progressive for the early 90's.  

Pleonasm over.

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13 minutes ago, Deej said:

I asked my Mexican neighbor if he preferred Mexican, Hispanic, or Latinx. He said Mexican. 

What if the person is Latino/Hispanic/ . . .  but not Mexican?

40 Hot Sol Rodriguez Photos - 12thBlog

For instance - Sol Rodriguez is Italian/Spanish - grew up in Argentina - and now lives in LA.

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1 hour ago, Nivek said:

 

Lets recap. 

First of all, I earlier asked a question because I have never heard that term before used.  Like Pancho, I read another post about it originating within the LGBTQ sector of Hispanics.  I found it weird you thought it was so offensive especially then you went on some discussion about it being forced upon you without your consent.  I also don't see where anyone is forcing you.  But since I am out of touch, it is entirely possible.  I also found it a bit hypocritical that you immediately went to using labels yourself.   I made a quip about it, and you went bonkers.   Yeah, I needled you a bit after.  You did so back.   More on that below.

Projection.

I don't know who you associate with but you clearly need to pick and choose better crowd.  That story about the Alamo Bowl has fuck all to do with me outside of your projection.  We all have anecdotes.  Here are some of my anecdotes: IME, the most offensive things I heard about Mexicans were from Mexican-Americans.  I am white so many of them thought it was OK to speak like that in front of me.  I heard a Mexican guy make a joke about Cubans drowning trying to get to Florida (knowing I was from there) and other Mexican-American dudes laughed.  It was jarring to me. That also occurred in San Antonio.  I had an older black dude from Seguin call me 'good people' once.  It was nice at first, but then I realized how awful it was later that night (why would someone say that to me for doing my job?).  I have been around a Taiwanese guy who pretended a Chinese coworker of mine was invisible.  I have heard detailed stories from a Pakistani guy about the India-Pakistan race to the bottom.  I have heard shitty things said by whites too.   I also do not associate with them.  From old guys who served in WW2 saying shit about the Japanese to family members cursing Jews.  I have even had a guy compliment me on having 3 kids not knowing he was talking about that replacement shit, not knowing that my family tree tends to branch.  I guess where I have the ultimate white privilege, I can avoid those people.  

I have also unintentionally offended people.  I didn't realize what I said could have been interpreted differently (said every husband).   I have tried to do better.  I stopped using the insult cocksucker because two esteemed members of the board (who post too little) explained it was offensive.  How I never made that connection before and just reflexively used it before embarrassed me.  That picture of the black dudes in all crowded around the pool that used to circulate on the old sites.  I asked Snacks about it in person once.  I wondered if it was a Texas thing.  He kindly explained it succinctly, probably realizing I was just an idiot.   Snacks probably forgot about it.  I did not.   My question was valid, the way I asked it could have been interpreted differently.  Why did I write all of this?  Will you receive what I wrote honestly, or just be dismissive and claim this is a variant of the old  "I have a black friend..." trope.  I am guessing the latter. 

Circling back, the oppressed comment you made I thought was funny.  I replied in kind.  Now, I realize you were being serious.   Yeah, I needled you with the Jackie Chan comment and you fired back.  But then kept building your fantasy in your head of what it all meant.   Then once again you went to labeling trying to brand me a klansman and claiming I am just too smart to say the other stuff out loud.  Maybe this is just me being unaware.   Maybe Monty Python's creator sodomized Latin's and I am unaware of it in that context.    Walden decided to try to join the dogpile.   

I suppose I am not appealing to you but the community at large. 

So let's go with both fucking barrels.   You seem like a horrible person to me. You seek out phantoms to be offended and yet you are perfectly fine with taking advantage of desperate women who are prostitutes with a contract and then 'test them out' and don't even have the courtesy pay them?  But, hey someone out there will exploit them so it might as well be you right?  Possibly, I don't know shit about it outside of a few news articles.  Maybe they are all well adjusted ladies with a penchant for F250's charms.   Maybe that time when I had to arrange for an escort for my Russian girl we had visiting to be essentially guarded because the owner of the oil well was an asshole who made comments about her being a mail order bride or they could work out some arrangement.  Maybe that was you.  After all, you pass for white.  Maybe with all of these projections we can open up a theater together. 

@elfenix  In S. Florida, people did use the term Latin not Latino not Latina. One of the gangs at my HS included the Latin Kings, maybe they were very progressive for the early 90's.  

Pleonasm over.

Tl/dr.

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1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

What if the person is Latino/Hispanic/ . . .  but not Mexican?

40 Hot Sol Rodriguez Photos - 12thBlog

For instance - Sol Rodriguez is Italian/Spanish - grew up in Argentina - and now lives in LA.

If they are in Texas she is Mexican, Florida she is Cuban and New York a Puerto Rican. I think it works something like that.

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21 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

B. Traven

"All right," Curtin shouted back. "If you are the police, where are your badges? Let's see them."


"Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and chinga tu madre!"

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3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

well there goes my evening down a rabbit hole

Some say he was a Communist agitator who crossed over from Germany to Mexico, made up three or four new identities for himself, and wrote some pretty good stories. Bogart was in a movie made from one.

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13 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Some say he was a Communist agitator who crossed over from Germany to Mexico, made up three or four new identities for himself, and wrote some pretty good stories. Bogart was in a movie made from one.

wish we could've partied :(

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8 hours ago, Pancho said:

I find this interesting because the term Latinx was started by Hispanics (LGBTQ Hispanics).

 

I was also told Hispanics was derogatory. My friend (Mexican from the valley) hates being called that.

Somehow I have acquired 4k Facebook friends, and I would guess about 20-25 percent of them are "brown." I polled all of them on what they thought of the term "Latinx" (and specifically told White people this was not a question I was interested in hearing from them on) and I got a whole range of answers, very few of them Latinx-positive. Mexican, Mexican-American, Tejano/a, and indigenous came in before Hispanic or Latino/a, both of which came before Chicano/a (seen as Californian), and all way before Latinx. which had maybe two or three adherents.

And of course a bunch of White people weighed in anyway, and were rightly chewed out for their arrogance and refusal to follow instructions. 

 

6 hours ago, Pancho said:

Getting back to the topic, I don't think "wokeness" is a problem.  Dems won both senate seats in Georgia and Biden won by 7 million.  That doesn't sound like a "woke' problem to me.  If people want to say Latinx instead of Hispanic, who gives a shit.  You think wokeness is a major problem or is the party with insurrectionists, radical right wing politicians in Congress, and who think a free and fair election was sToLeN fRoM tRuMp is the major problem. 

Dems don't have a "wokeness problem."  They have a radical Republican problem.  Dems have always had a problem controlling a message and instead letting radical Republicans control the message instead.  It doesn't help that Fox News is radicalizing people left and right as well. 

I also find it funny that radical Republicans go out of there way to use the term "woke" all the time--cruz and cotton seem to use it the most.  I just want to ask them what they think "woke" means and what specifically are they against?  I also want to ask them why they use that word when no one uses that word anymore. 

A lot of this is exactly what Carville said. The headline writer did the interview an injustice. Carville said that yes, the Dems won the presidency, but that it was much closer than it should have been against a historic buffoon of an opponent. He went out of his way to specifically acknowledge Georgia. But he also said that the House results were a disaster, all things considered.

And that Dems can't control their own messaging was his true overarching point. Repubs find the fringiest Dem slogans for good ideas and turn them into nightmare scenarios: "reimagine public safety" becomes "abolish the police," to name one example. In other words, it's not "woke" policies Carville opposes, but the selling of them, and he sees the Dems as arrogant and overly high-minded in their pitches. 

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2 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

I am glad you are here. I watched a special about the author B. Traven. I am convinced that you are he. Look him up and tell me I am wrong.

Sir, if you are going to send people down rabbit holes based on perceptions of them, it's only fair you read this interview. This guy was known as the best Simpsons writer, during the golden era of The Simpsons and is famously reclusive, giving his first interview in 21 years. 

He answers questions like you would if you were less funny. Enjoy:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/john-swartzwelder-sage-of-the-simpsons

And of course I take the New Yorker and of course you don't, so if you can't read this let me know and I'll copy/paste it for you.

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