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NBA Playoffs 2022


Vic Mackey

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15 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Wut? Hate him for the constant bitching and cheap shots (most of which get called and/or reviewed) all you want, and rightly so; but, as far as actual on the court defense, he's one of the best, most versatile, smartest defenders that the league has ever seen. Certainly the most impactful defender of the past decade. He's a genius. And it sure as shit isn't because he's "mugging" people and getting away with it.

Two things can be true. Draymond is clearly a very smart and athletic defender. He also commits a lot of fouls that aren't called, in large part because he is so smart. Just like Maddox used to get any questionable pitch (and a fair amount of unquestionable pitches) called a strike due to earned reputation for control, Draymond more than gets the benefit of the doubt.

When you are not a Warriors fan that gets pretty fucking irritating.

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11 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

The looking like you should get a call is done but every nba player though. Bitching like a 8 year old at refs all game I cant take.

Nah, it's not done by every player.  The ones who do it the most are the ones I can't stand watching.  The leg kick on 3s almost drove me away from watching basketball altogether.  Thankfully they took care fo that.

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3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Draymond might get away with stuff but anyone who thinks he’s anything other than one of the elite defensive players in nba history is just wrong.

And when all else fails, kick them in the nuts, right?

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9 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Two things can be true. Draymond is clearly a very smart and athletic defender. He also commits a lot of fouls that aren't called, in large part because he is so smart. Just like Maddox used to get any questionable pitch (and a fair amount of unquestionable pitches) called a strike due to earned reputation for control, Draymond more than gets the benefit of the doubt.

When you are not a Warriors fan that gets pretty fucking irritating.

For sure. He has many Rodman-esque qualities of pushing boundaries.

As long as we can all acknowledge that we'd absolutely love to have him on our team.

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I've totally come around on Draymond. I used to hate him but now I think he's one of the most underrated and unique players in NBA history. He's not just a complete witch on defense with his switching and disrupting the other teams plays, but he is the catalyst for their offense. Watch him set picks to free up Curry. Watch him initiate offense with dribble hand offs. Watch how he manipulates the defense when plays break down to get shots for his teammates. All the little things... he does them all. He's one of the smartest and most unselfish players I've ever seen. It's rare that guys who don't/can't shoot much can impact the game in so many different ways. The NBA is so homogeneous nowadays with everybody playing essentially the same drive and kick /pick and roll style. He does it so differently that I've come to appreciate him and look past all the other bullshit. 

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5 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I've totally come around on Draymond. I used to hate him but now I think he's one of the most underrated and unique players in NBA history. He's not just a complete witch on defense with his switching and disrupting the other teams plays, but he is the catalyst for their offense. Watch him set picks to free up Curry. Watch him initiate offense with dribble hand offs. Watch how he manipulates the defense when plays break down to get shots for his teammates. All the little things... he does them all. He's one of the smartest and most unselfish players I've ever seen. It's rare that guys who don't/can't shoot much can impact the game in so many different ways. The NBA is so homogeneous nowadays with everybody playing essentially the same drive and kick /pick and roll style. He does it so differently that I've come to appreciate him and look past all the other bullshit. 

Let's settle down on the 'Draymond is one of the best defenders of all time' schtick.  Jokic went for 31 ppg with Draymond covering him almost 100% of the time.

 

He's a very good defender who plays dirty and the refs let him.  That's about it.  He doesn't score and he doesn't rebound.  Most of his value is in being an irritant and playing good defense.

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Just now, Chewbacca said:

Let's settle down on the 'Draymond is one of the best defenders of all time' schtick.  Jokic went for 31 ppg with Draymond covering him almost 100% of the time.

 

He's a very good defender who plays dirty and the refs let him.  That's about it.  He doesn't score and he doesn't rebound.  Most of his value is in being an irritant and playing good defense.

He’s a 6 time all nba defender and the catalyst for one of the biggest defensive shifts league wide in NBA history. Pretending Draymond isn’t absolutely elite defensively is just dumb.

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5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Let's settle down on the 'Draymond is one of the best defenders of all time' schtick.  Jokic went for 31 ppg with Draymond covering him almost 100% of the time.

 

He's a very good defender who plays dirty and the refs let him.  That's about it.  He doesn't score and he doesn't rebound.  Most of his value is in being an irritant and playing good defense.

Horrible. This take.

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6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

He’s a 6 time all nba defender and the catalyst for one of the biggest defensive shifts league wide in NBA history. Pretending Draymond isn’t absolutely elite defensively is just dumb.

Take away the 6 extra fouls he commits every game and he's not elite.  He's elite because the refs give him extra fouls.  Call him straight up and he fouls out of most games.  

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10 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Let's settle down on the 'Draymond is one of the best defenders of all time' schtick.  Jokic went for 31 ppg with Draymond covering him almost 100% of the time.  He's a very good defender who plays dirty and the refs let him.  That's about it.  He doesn't score and he doesn't rebound.  Most of his value is in being an irritant and playing good defense.

 

Yeah right...

giphy.gif

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10 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Let's settle down on the 'Draymond is one of the best defenders of all time' schtick.  Jokic went for 31 ppg with Draymond covering him almost 100% of the time.

 

He's a very good defender who plays dirty and the refs let him.  That's about it.  He doesn't score and he doesn't rebound.  Most of his value is in being an irritant and playing good defense.

He's giving up 7 inches and about 100 lbs to the two time current league MVP. He has no business trying to guard Jokic. 

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No of this has to do with my point that draymond is a fucking bitch and the mavs fans will wish they had a extra 7 games with the suns and bookers whiny face than draymond yelling at refs direction all game and not getting what he deserves which is a T. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

No of this has to do with my point that draymond is a fucking bitch and the mavs fans will wish they had a extra 7 games with the suns and bookers whiny face than draymond yelling at refs direction all game and not getting what he deserves which is a T. 

Truth.  This man speaks it.  Mavs fans are about to gain a whole new level of hate for Draymond. 

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27 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

No of this has to do with my point that draymond is a fucking bitch and the mavs fans will wish they had a extra 7 games with the suns and bookers whiny face than draymond yelling at refs direction all game and not getting what he deserves which is a T. 

This is accurate.

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27 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Truth.  This man speaks it.  Mavs fans are about to gain a whole new level of hate for Draymond. 

Which has nothing to do with how good he is defensively which for some reason you can’t admit.

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48 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I've totally come around on Draymond. I used to hate him but now I think he's one of the most underrated and unique players in NBA history. He's not just a complete witch on defense with his switching and disrupting the other teams plays, but he is the catalyst for their offense. Watch him set picks to free up Curry. Watch him initiate offense with dribble hand offs. Watch how he manipulates the defense when plays break down to get shots for his teammates. All the little things... he does them all. He's one of the smartest and most unselfish players I've ever seen. It's rare that guys who don't/can't shoot much can impact the game in so many different ways. The NBA is so homogeneous nowadays with everybody playing essentially the same drive and kick /pick and roll style. He does it so differently that I've come to appreciate him and look past all the other bullshit. 

I don't think any of this is wrong. I also think it is true that he gets away with a lot of BS based on reputation and the refs lack of resolve to tossing him every game. I think he's got the potential to be a really good coach when he's done playing.  But he absolutely works the edges of the rules for his advantage.

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2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Which has nothing to do with how good he is defensively which for some reason you can’t admit.

I think the reason he's so good is because he gets extra fouls.  Take those away (i.e., call him straight up, including Ts that they should  call on him) and he's nowhere near as good.

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2 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I don't think any of this is wrong. I also think it is true that he gets away with a lot of BS based on reputation and the refs lack of resolve to tossing him every game. I think he's got the potential to be a really good coach when he's done playing.  But he absolutely works the edges of the rules for his advantage.

So did Bruce Bowen, but I’ll bet history will look at Draymond more favorably. He is a genius after all. 

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So who does dray guard? Dray and klay combo luka?

why doesn’t the warriors just double team luka all series and say “if you win 4 games with dinwiddie having to drop 25 then so be it”..

or do the warriors even need to do that? 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Chewbacca said:

I think the reason he's so good is because he gets extra fouls.  Take those away (i.e., call him straight up, including Ts that they should  call on him) and he's nowhere near as good.

And 90% of the league's superstars wouldn't be as good if they called traveling and carrying. Still failing to see your point here. Knowing what you can and can't get away with--and using it to your advantage--is Basketball 101. Smart players realize this. Dumb players bitch about things not being "fair."

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2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

And 90% of the league's superstars wouldn't be as good if they called traveling and carrying. Still failing to see your point here. Knowing what you can and can't get away with--and using it to your advantage--is Basketball 101. Smart players realize this. Dumb players bitch about things not being "fair."

I don't blame him, I blame the refs.  I don't understand why they let him do what they let him do.  He's smart for doing it.

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5 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

So who does dray guard? Dray and klay combo luka?

why doesn’t the warriors just double team luka all series and say “if you win 4 games with dinwiddie having to drop 25 then so be it”..

or do the warriors even need to do that? 
 

 

All depends on Poole.  If he's on, along with Klay and Steph, it probably doesn't matter.

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23 hours ago, Message Board User said:

 

Chris Paul has career earnings so far of $330M and if he plays out his current contract, it will be $419M.  That doesn't include another $100M or so in lifetime endorsement deals, maybe more.  He'll have easily made $500M.

Rondo has $115M in career earnings and no endorsement deals.

So, there's that.

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2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

And 90% of the league's superstars wouldn't be as good if they called traveling and carrying. Still failing to see your point here. Knowing what you can and can't get away with--and using it to your advantage--is Basketball 101. Smart players realize this. Dumb players bitch about things not being "fair."

Apply that logic outside of sports and you have anarchy. "It's only wrong if I get caught" is a shitty way to go through life and a shitty way to play a sport, imo.

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44 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Apply that logic outside of sports and you have anarchy. "It's only wrong if I get caught" is a shitty way to go through life and a shitty way to play a sport, imo.

This is such a weird take to me. Was MJ "shitty" for knowing how to sneak in a subtle shove? Who are these great sportsman who would never dream of bending the rules?

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18 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

This is such a weird take to me. Was MJ "shitty" for knowing how to sneak in a subtle shove? Who are these great sportsman who would never dream of bending the rules?

Nothing is every black and white. Is MJ shittier for having to shove Russell to hit a game winner? Well, yeah. Did MJ have to bend the rules to be great? Nope. Does Dray have to bend the rules to be "great" on defense? Well, yeah. I would think the difference is self evident.

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9 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Did MJ have to bend the rules to be great? Nope. Does Dray have to bend the rules to be "great" on defense? Well, yeah. I would think the difference is self evident.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

We're still talking about two totally different things. On one hand, Draymond is a Grade A cunt, agitating, talking, bitching, and flailing. He's not trying to injure like Laimbeer, but he'll do anything and everything to get under your skin like Rodman. But he gets called for those things, and is the only player in the league that has his "flagrant/technical points until suspension" brought up during every broadcast.

However, without any of those antics, he's still the premier defender of the past 10 years based purely on IQ, being two steps ahead of the offense, directing traffic, and his ability to switch 5 positions. I think the uncalled  "mugging" is largely in the heads of opposing fans because of who he is. He doesn't get away with any more live ball fouls than the next guy. And he certainly didn't require uncalled fouls to be great.

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I'm not saying Draymond's a bum without the shady shit, but he'd be simply above average if the game was called by the book 100% of the time. It's not just the ones he gets away with. It's the impact of him getting away with it on other plays when he's not doing it. The other guy is expecting it, already pissed the ref didn't call it, and Draymond wins the head game because he got away with something earlier in the game. It's a snow ball effect that at this point starts before the tip because of rep.

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7 hours ago, Llogg said:

Nothing is every black and white. Is MJ shittier for having to shove Russell to hit a game winner? Well, yeah. Did MJ have to bend the rules to be great? Nope. Does Dray have to bend the rules to be "great" on defense? Well, yeah. I would think the difference is self evident.

Just for clarification, the refs officiate Draymond differently but didn't officiate MJ differently? It was a league wide joke about how you couldn't breathe on MJ without getting a foul called on you. I mean, the game was a lot more physical then but nobody got more benefit of the doubt from the refs in the history of the league than Michael Jordan did. 

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Refs giving Jordan foul calls is not equivalent to refs letting Draymond slide for his antics. One is enforcing the rules as written but not as typically enforced. The other is not enforcing the rules as written.

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12 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Just for clarification, the refs officiate Draymond differently but didn't officiate MJ differently? It was a league wide joke about how you couldn't breathe on MJ without getting a foul called on you. I mean, the game was a lot more physical then but nobody got more benefit of the doubt from the refs in the history of the league than Michael Jordan did. 

This is why mentioning how physical the league was as to why Jordan is so great is pretty dumb. He could never win shit when the league was actually allowed to play him like everyone else. Once they changed the rules for him for many reasons, it became easier for him. Jordan was then shielded from what most players had to deal with. 

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25 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

This is why mentioning how physical the league was as to why Jordan is so great is pretty dumb. He could never win shit when the league was actually allowed to play him like everyone else. Once they changed the rules for him for many reasons, it became easier for him. Jordan was then shielded from what most players had to deal with. 

Jordan had fewer FT attempts per game in the 90s than the 80s. 

The entire league dropped in FT attempts.  The league also dropped in points per game.

Kinda seems like you're making stuff up.

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Was surprised how low scoring some of the Bulls/MJ games were watching the Last Dance. Offense in general was much worse in the 90s. Can say its the rules I just think mainly the non-superstar players are way more skilled now. You can't just clog the lane with the majority of your team and hold a team to 85.

Thought the NBA did a good job cutting down on some of the Trae Young / Harden foul baiting BS.

Next rule change I would like to see is no free throws for the cheap rip through move. Should just be a side out. 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Was surprised how low scoring some of the Bulls/MJ games were watching the Last Dance. Offense in general was much worse in the 90s. Can say its the rules I just think mainly the non-superstar players are way more skilled now. You can't just clog the lane with the majority of your team and hold a team to 85.

Thought the NBA did a good job cutting down on some of the Trae Young / Harden foul baiting BS.

Next rule change I would like to see is no free throws for the cheap rip through move. Should just be a side out. 

 

 

 

I think we're in year 11 or 12 of this being the case, no?

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16 hours ago, Message Board User said:

😲

 

This is what i don't get from all the Suns fans saying "we needed a big man" when defending the #1 overall pick. No one needs a big man to have success.  That is not the same as saying you cannot have success with a big man.  Luka posted up more times than Ayton in the series (and got more rebounds, lol) but when bigs are getting torched on defensive switches and/or getting pulled out of the lane to hedge the corner 3 there is a strong argument that the cons outweigh the pros to having them on the floor for long stretches.  

When Ayton was effective, he would slide up the high post and sorta invite his defender to help on a baseline drive and open up that easy dish for a dunk.  He needs to play like Shaq and bully opponents each game by battering into them on the block.  make the refs determine what is allowed and what is not.  otherwise, any player can get a jump hook off in the lane and he brings no advantage.  if you allow a smaller player to guard you and are not creating a need for a double team, a true big should not be out on the floor.  

 

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1 hour ago, fellside said:

Jordan had fewer FT attempts per game in the 90s than the 80s. 

The entire league dropped in FT attempts.  The league also dropped in points per game.

Kinda seems like you're making stuff up.

I don't agree with Vic's take on MJ, but mid-80s MJ taking it the hole relentlessly was going to get to the line a lot more and at a higher rate than 90's MJ playing out of the triangle. 

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Just now, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I don't agree with Vic's take on MJ, but mid-80s MJ taking it the hole relentlessly was going to get to the line a lot more and at a higher rate than 90's MJ playing out of the triangle. 

Which is why I referenced the league totals as well.

Jordan won in the 90's rather than the 80's because he had a better coach, better teammates, and fewer super teams to compete against once Bird, Magic and Isaiah were old.

Nobody was doing anything to Jordan in the 80's to limit him and no rule change altered the trajectory of his success.

Jordan had better playoff statistics and shooting numbers when he was losing in the 80s than when he was winning in the 90s. His team just got better and his opponents got worse.  Just a bad take by that dude.

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16 minutes ago, fellside said:

Which is why I referenced the league totals as well.

Jordan won in the 90's rather than the 80's because he had a better coach, better teammates, and fewer super teams to compete against once Bird, Magic and Isaiah were old.

Nobody was doing anything to Jordan in the 80's to limit him and no rule change altered the trajectory of his success.

Jordan had better playoff statistics and shooting numbers when he was losing in the 80s than when he was winning in the 90s. His team just got better and his opponents got worse.  Just a bad take by that dude.

Sure, but he still got preferential treatment from the referees. Remember Magic joking during that Olympics photo shoot with Bird that they shouldn't stand too close to Michael because they were going to get called for a foul? Superstars have always gotten calls in the league. Jordan was the biggest star in league history, so it's not surprising that he got calls. It was a little surprising when referee Eddie F. Rush called MJ up to introduce him to some skank in a bar, but that's just how things do sometimes.

Which kind of brings me back to this....

3 hours ago, Llogg said:

Refs giving Jordan foul calls is not equivalent to refs letting Draymond slide for his antics. One is enforcing the rules as written but not as typically enforced. The other is not enforcing the rules as written.

You are going to have to explain this to me like I'm 5 years old. What exactly is the difference in the end result if rules are being enforced differently from one player to the next? Are you assigning some sort of moral value to how NBA rules are officiated? I just don't get it.

And I don't necessarily agree with the notion that Draymond gets a ton of leeway with the refs. He got kicked out of Game 1 against Memphis on a flagrant foul 2 where he's actually trying to hold the guy up from getting hurt. That was a terrible call. His reputation definitely hurt him there. In the playoffs they let guys get away with more physical play and it's especially true in the post. The nut kicking and histrionics are annoying, but that poked eye against Jokic seemed inadvertent to me. 

More importantly, how the fuck did I end up on here defending Draymond Green? I need to go take a shower. I feel dirty.

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13 hours ago, Llogg said:

Apply that logic outside of sports and you have anarchy. "It's only wrong if I get caught" is a shitty way to go through life and a shitty way to play a sport, imo.

Sammy Hagar would like a word. Or are you that cunt going 54 on the Interstate?

I would posit that going through life always bitching about "IF" and making that as a basis for self-righteous indignation is pretty shitty too.  If my aunt had balls, she'd be non-binary. I'll just enjoy the candy and nuts here in the actuality.

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13 hours ago, Llogg said:

Apply that logic outside of sports and you have anarchy. "It's only wrong if I get caught" is a shitty way to go through life and a shitty way to play a sport, imo.

Lol wut? Have you never played a sport?

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17 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Sure, but he still got preferential treatment from the referees. Remember Magic joking during that Olympics photo shoot with Bird that they shouldn't stand too close to Michael because they were going to get called for a foul? Superstars have always gotten calls in the league. Jordan was the biggest star in league history, so it's not surprising that he got calls. It was a little surprising when referee Eddie F. Rush called MJ up to introduce him to some skank in a bar, but that's just how things do sometimes.

Which kind of brings me back to this....

You are going to have to explain this to me like I'm 5 years old. What exactly is the difference in the end result if rules are being enforced differently from one player to the next? Are you assigning some sort of moral value to how NBA rules are officiated? I just don't get it.

And I don't necessarily agree with the notion that Draymond gets a ton of leeway with the refs. He got kicked out of Game 1 against Memphis on a flagrant foul 2 where he's actually trying to hold the guy up from getting hurt. That was a terrible call. His reputation definitely hurt him there. In the playoffs they let guys get away with more physical play and it's especially true in the post. The nut kicking and histrionics are annoying, but that poked eye against Jokic seemed inadvertent to me. 

More importantly, how the fuck did I end up on here defending Draymond Green? I need to go take a shower. I feel dirty.

You nailed it in every way.

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