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The Kids (Aren't) Alright - World Happiness Report


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On 5/14/2024 at 7:32 AM, BabaYaga said:

Any parent that bitches about the time it takes to invest their kids in sports had better not bitch around cheer parents.  Oh boy.  Neighbor does that.  They travel the country.  Competitions that they have to spend 6-8hrs at for a 2 minute, 30 second routine.  No thanks.  

Swimming is a close second.

Son is a swimmer, daughter runs track. The worst "Cost per minute" had to be round trip airfare and 3 days in a hotel to watch your daughter run for 58 seconds at AAU Jr Olympics. 

Both my kids thought they wanted to run/swim in college...until some of their older teammates got the opportunity and came home with stories about how much it sucked. As Brisket posted above, it's a huge time commitment, and unless you're Olympics level elite you'd almost always be better off having a traditional college experience. 

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1 minute ago, Captainant said:

It was the "in" thing for a minute because of gen X and Z, and millennials being between the two groups

Gen Y is an original term along with Millennials.

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2 hours ago, troph said:

Gen Y is an original term along with Millennials.

 

3 hours ago, Captainant said:

It was the "in" thing for a minute because of gen X and Z, and millennials being between the two groups

Gen Y is the original term, simply because it came after Gen X.  "Millennials" was a later designation that ended up sticking.  Similarly, some folks are now trying to call Gen Z the "Zoomers."  But I'm not sure if that one will stick, in the way Millennials did.

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Yeah, I'm a "younger" Gen X'er.  But we gotta all just stop for a second and stop yelling at clouds about these gosh darn "Millennials" and these young people today with their privilege, wokeness, lack of manners, and entitlement.  They are fucking 43 years old now.  Our age group has plenty other shit to make up reasons to whine about.  I mean, yeah the "Millennials" disconnect with our upbringing was a thing for a few months like 15 years ago, and yes kids born in the 80's are just different now than we are having been born in the 70's due to external factors.  But c'mon, some of them have grandchildren now and we're all still bitching, "These darn millennials with their song lyrics and their complicated shoes!"  

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On 5/13/2024 at 3:46 PM, YGIFS said:

And that 6 year old's name?  You guessed it.  Tony Gwynn! 

We live literally in the shadow of one of the biggest football powerhouse High Schools in all of the Lone Star State.  And I still chuckle at some of the dad's I know who ask me about connecting them with UT coaches and scholarship folks so their sons can get a leg up on the competition before college applications/recruiting season ramps up.  And I have to maintain a straight face when a parental couple, both of whom are 5'7" in heels ask me about basketball chances for their boy.  Or a kid who can't even figure out how to put on a baseball glove at 12, let alone hit a breaking ball.  And no, your kid who is still having trouble with the alphabet in middle school is probably not gonna get a letter of recommendation from me for any university.  

My oldest has been doing some more sporting leagues this last two years since we came outta Covid.  And I love that she realizes first and foremost-be a good teammate.  Second-respect the rules.  Third-worry about winning.  In that order.  Precisely.  And despite the competitive nature of the community in Austin which we find ourselves, all of the leagues/tournaments/sports have been pretty chill and kinda follow the order I just described.  But on Sunday, her team finally ran into one of those teams run by two asshats who think every girl on their squad is gonna play championship volleyball at UT someday.  And they sure as shit acted the part.  It was like watching Coach Bobby Knight scream at 9 year olds.  On Mother's Day, mind you.  

Teach 'em teamwork, respect for rules and officials.  Then scores/wins.  And pepper in fun wherever you can.  Spoiler alert---do the math.  There's a very finite number of roster spots for student-athletes of any gender, in a fixed number of sports across three divisions and NAIA (only 50% of which actually award athletic scholarships, and even then only partial for the most part).  

Statistically speaking, your kid has a better chance of becoming a paid rally car racer than a paid NIL baseball player at a D1 program.  Maybe some folks should tap the brakes, hug their kids, and teach them Mandarin.  

 

On 5/13/2024 at 4:16 PM, BabaYaga said:

The kid has to want it on their own.  That's what you can't "teach".  My son pivoted and it going in another direction from sports.  The other is a complete little psychopath I have to reign that one back to keep from redlining all the time.  Both will be successful (I pray) in whatever fields they go into.  Sports teaches a lot.  One oft overlooked facet is just good old fashioned grit.  If you have to scream at the kids to get them to perform, it's the coaching equivalent of a sugar-rush.  It works initially, but quickly wears off and doesn't provide much staying power.  Teach them about goals.  Setting them.  Achieving them.  From talking to other parents who have walked the walk through D1 athletics, also be careful what you wish for.  There's a reason there are so few of them out there.  It's fucking hard and can grind you into moon dust.  They also can get hurt.  Now what?  What's the fallback plan?  You can lose an ACL.  Grit is harder to come by.  

I love seeing Texas players make it to the NFL.  What I love even more, players that were marginal or got hurt, and you find out later they have graduate degrees and are crushing it in life off the field.  

 

On 5/13/2024 at 4:23 PM, Brisketexan said:

My kids have several college-level athletes from among their friend/acquaintances ranks.  Some are quite close friends, some are just kids they knew.  None of these kids are "world class, major league" talents.  They were all good enough to play a sport/swim etc. in college.

Without exception....all of them didn't care for the experience in some degree.  The time it took, the toll on the body, the culture around it -- for various reasons, they either hung it up before their college career was done, or regret sticking with it through the end.  I'm sure for those who are genuine world-class talents (as in, will likely do it professionally), the take can be different.  But as the old Big XII ads pointed out, 95% of college athletes will be going pro in something other than athletics.  Most of those kids had "grit" - they stuck with something long enough to make it to the college level.  But reality sinks in.  You're killing yourself and taking away damned near everything else in your life for the single-minded pursuit of....one athletic endeavor.  Not me.  In college, I chased both beer AND girls.  And I went fishing.  And hunting.  And on road trips.  And I made friends from a variety of circles.  And I chased more beer, and more girls.

If you want your kid to get a college scholarship, you're much better off paying for tutors and test-prep courses.  Those things have the added advantage of helping them get educated, too.

 

On 5/13/2024 at 4:47 PM, YGIFS said:

Yep, good points all.  I want my girls to learn teamwork and sportsmanship and hustle and determination.  And so far the leagues have been all about that and a buncha fun mixed in.  but I guess my oldest is just at that age now where some parents and coaches are getting so much more serious and 'ass-holish.'  And she's got these friends who are into cheer camps and away tours/competitions/whatever.  Which every box-faced East Texas female has-been needs to remember, is actually the sport with the most injuries:participant ration than any other athletic endeavor and spoiler alert---even if you're awesome and don't sustain an neck injury doing it---there's no fucking money in it.  It just abuses young girls like a Catholic Priest on sabbatical.  

I mean, I look back at my baseball and swim coaches (I played a few others but was only good at these two so had lots of intensive experiences) and yeah--they were assholes and mean but it was underneath about teamwork and effort and respect for the game.  Then about 20 years ago somebody got wise and invented an sub-industry where all of the sudden, despite a static number of scholarships and roster spots, that every kid was uber-talented and for just 8 weeks and $2000, your child can go from good to great to exceptional.  And also, we'll need you to set aside every weekend of your life for the next 14 years and get ready to put serious mileage on your vehicle.  

Sports and Politics.  The ability to manipulate stupid people reigns supreme.  As per usual, my prize lack of imagination.  

 

On 5/13/2024 at 5:29 PM, Brisketexan said:

And....it makes no difference as to whether your kid is going to get a scholarship to a good university or not.   Sure, if you're marginal, maybe putting in exceptional effort bumps you up to get an offer from D2 or D3 U, congrats on your admission and free tuition to Bridgewater State U.  But let's be clear: functionally ZERO kids who get a scholarship offer to a good D1 school (UT, Purdue, Michigan, what have you) got that offer because of the 6 summers they spent playing select ball or somesuch.  When it comes to having D1-level talent, it's a lot like having pro-level talent: you either have it, or you don't.

I remember reading about baseball scouts who could go to high school baseball showcases, with 100 players out on the field showing their stuff.  The scouts commented that they could tell from watching around 30 seconds of a player's action whether he had the stuff to be considered a real prospect, and out of those 100, MAYBE 2-3 players would make that initial cut.  And that's just to be considered a prospect, not a lock to actually make it to the next level.  And I know I've told the story around here about my old law partner whose kids played youth sports with Drew Brees.  It didn't matter if it was blindfolded Albanian Badminton they were playing, Drew was the best athlete on the field.  At everything, always, since he was 5 years old.  No amount of practice or clinics or select ball was going to turn my friend's athletic, skilled kids into Drew Brees.  And Drew's family didn't even let him start playing "select" ball (which everyone else wanted him to do) until late middle school or something like that.  He didn't miss out on any development because he missed several seasons of select ball.  He's got an earned Super Bowl MVP trophy, because he was a god-given great athlete.  That's what it takes.

My son is a good baseball player.  He loves it, played since T-ball.  He's playing now, in an adult rec league overseas, and it makes him happy.  He's one of the better players on a top squad, but he's far from the best.  He gets the experience of being part of a team, meeting folks, travel for games, all the good stuff you want out of sports.  Kids will have a pretty healthy attitude about sports, if their parents will get out of the way.

Tying back to the thread topic: I think the kids are, all-in-all, alright.  It's the adults who are fucky.

 

On 5/13/2024 at 5:49 PM, 956 Worldwide said:

Way back in the early 2000s, I had a a friend who played D2 volleyball on a partial scholarship who went over how much cash her dad spent on club teams and travel and etc but “then I got a scholarship so all worth it.” She did not respond well to the info that all that money dropped into a 529 account would have covered the partial scholarship and much more. 

 

On 5/13/2024 at 5:51 PM, Brisketexan said:

Bingo.  99% of parents who say shit like "all of this time and money is an investment to get my kid an athletic scholarship!" are very, very, very bad at math.

 

On 5/13/2024 at 5:54 PM, 956 Worldwide said:

To be clear, I support parents being behind kids and helping them excel and pursue sports or music or whatever.  Just go in with your eyes open and don’t pretend that it’s an investment for a scholarship. Even below the D1 level, doing college sports is absolutely doing college on hard mode and if the goal is education, then make it about education. 

 

On 5/13/2024 at 6:01 PM, YGIFS said:

Yep, as posted above.  There are obvious benefits to team sports.  In the end, you're better off though just doing a couple things per year, saving your time and money and travel, and putting it towards academics or art or music.  In the end, worst case scenario---the kid gets knowledge or an instrument or art media that doesn't conk out at 25 but rather lasts until 95.  

Every year, I have the good fortunate to give out a lot of other people's money for myriad scholarships.  And invariably when we go the part about, "Describe a leadership setback or challenge you've experienced and how you overcame it."  90% of the kids will say something to the effect of, "On my high school sports team, we were losing and I had to rally my teammates to try harder like a less convincing Gene Hackman in Hoosiers." And the other 10% will have a narrative akin to "I saw xyz issue going unaddressed in my school/family/church/community so while I'm not an extrovert or vocal, I decided to step up, chart a path, and lead the way."  That second kid gets my vote every time.  

I don't care how many weekends you spent on a travel team to do some 9-hour competition in Houston in basketball or badminton.  That's all well and good.  But the kid who spends that many weekends learning another language or starting a non-profit or just helping old people clean their gutters.  They get the scholarship almost every time.  There is character to be built on the court and even in practice, but that's when coach is watching.  I respect the kid that does the work when nobody is looking or clapping.  

 

On 5/14/2024 at 7:32 AM, BabaYaga said:

Any parent that bitches about the time it takes to invest their kids in sports had better not bitch around cheer parents.  Oh boy.  Neighbor does that.  They travel the country.  Competitions that they have to spend 6-8hrs at for a 2 minute, 30 second routine.  No thanks.  

Swimming is a close second.

 

On 5/14/2024 at 12:24 PM, BabaYaga said:

I think a lot of that comes from the parents - it's "cooler" to be able to brag about your D1 athlete than your kid taking microbiology and acing their labs.  

 

On 5/14/2024 at 3:52 PM, Brisketexan said:

Yeah, there's definitely a foundational issue of parents living vicariously through their kids and their achievements (which, on some level, is only human and is to be expected).  Whether you're bragging because little Johnny hit a home run or because he won a spelling bee, there's some "look at my kid" going on there.  It's when it's taken to extremes, and/or at the expense of other more sensible things, that it's a problem.

A secondary issue with living vicariously through athletics is the "so what?" factor.  Your kid led his high school team in stolen bases.  Cool.  Seriously, that's cool.  But is he gonna make 7 figures plus in MLB because of it?  Odds are the answer is "no."  So he might as well have just won his 10th straight hand of gin.  It's cool that he's good at something, that he worked hard at it, and that it paid off.  That's the takeaway.  Oh, and that he's happy.  I sure as hell loved watching my son work on a baseball skill and seeing it pay off, and seeing HIM take joy and satisfaction in the payoff.  

These days, I'm more likely to brag on my kids about the things I'm jealous of: dude gets to live in Scotland, he's a hit with the girls, he's turned into a damned good cook, he's a solid baseball player on a fun adult league team that has him bouncing around Scotland, he's studying cool central and eastern european stuff and doing well at it.  The girl is living in London, finding her way, speaking four languages, building a network of friends and colleagues all over the world.  But for both of them, the metric that resonates with me is "are they doing some things that feed them, make them happy, and advance them as people?"  It sucks when they aren't, and I feel that for them.  But one thing that's damned clear to me - as much as I will brag on my kids (and I will, I'm really proud of them), their accomplishments are theirs.  I don't get to take ownership of those, and I'd be a dick if I tried.

 

On 5/14/2024 at 4:13 PM, Howlin wolf said:

My oldest daughter got into cheer after doing tumbling classes for a few years. We just happened to live close to a top gym. Classes, dues, uniforms, travel. I’ve always avoided adding up the cost. It's has to be 30-40k a year, especially when you end up taking the family to Disney and all.

 

On 5/14/2024 at 6:00 PM, YGIFS said:

$40,000 a year for cheerleading?  Seriously?  Not judging you personally but that's fucking insane considering the lack of upside and head trauma potential.  

I had to tell my girls recently, if you help with this around the house and that around the yard and blah blah blah.  We can seriously discuss going to Disneyland in the next year or two.  But we are never going to DisneyWorld.  I went to college for two years near Orlando and I saw people that nobody else should ever have to see.  If that whole area was annihilated by a half dozen warheads, I don't think this country would skip a beat.  

Now then, back to talk of rowing scholarships.  

 

On 5/14/2024 at 7:41 PM, Howlin wolf said:

Eh. You can judge, doesn't bother me. There’s other things that go into ROI besides purely dollars. It’s one thing my teenage daughter really cares about and works hard at, so enabling some hard work and seeing results is a positive. She wants to be a UT cheerleader. I imagine it will happen so that counts for something. Head trauma I’m not worried about, she isn't a flyer. 

Fortunately, 40 Grand is something we can swing. I'm shocked though at the socio-economic class of a lot of cheer families. They cut some corners and definitely don't spend quite as much, but it is very similar to certain people we’ve all seen overspending on things like fireworks or theme parks. 🤣

 Man, listen to all of you guys. Just like not all these kids are going to play D1 sports, not all the kids are going to be at the top of their class academically either. No matter how hard you push them if they aren't driven academically they will fall short the same way if they aren't driven athletically. You have to see what kind of kid you have and respond accordingly. If you have a kid who excels academically then go for it. However, if you have a kid who is NOT going to be at the top of the food chain academically what do you do? Idle hands right? To some people keeping their kid too busy to get in trouble far outweighs the monetary loss, not to mention the life lessons one learns along the way.

We happen to have the kid who is among the small percentage that can play a D1 sport. She is a solid student, but isn't at the top of her class. Her athletic ability is opening doors to colleges she couldn't otherwise get into. Some of those schools are pretty expensive annually and far exceed the amount of money we've spent on club sports. My wife and I know the grind. We also know not owing 200k+ is a good way to kick off her life. We would much rather give her that money to buy a home.

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Man, listen to all of you guys. Just like not all these kids are going to play D1 sports, not all the kids are going to be at the top of their class academically either. No matter how hard you push them if they aren't driven academically they will fall short the same way if they aren't driven athletically. You have to see what kind of kid you have and respond accordingly. If you have a kid who excels academically then go for it. However, if you have a kid who is NOT going to be at the top of the food chain academically what do you do? Idle hands right? To some people keeping their kid too busy to get in trouble far outweighs the monetary loss, not to mention the life lessons one learns along the way.

We happen to have the kid who is among the small percentage that can play a D1 sport. She is a solid student, but isn't at the top of her class. Her athletic ability is opening doors to colleges she couldn't otherwise get into. Some of those schools are pretty expensive annually and far exceed the amount of money we've spent on club sports. My wife and I know the grind. We also know not owing 200k+ is a good way to kick off her life. We would much rather give her that money to buy a home.

 

 

 

 

And....you just described the perfect case for a kid for whom athletics and a D-1 scholarship may be the perfect path.

I don't think any of us said that the D-1 scholarship path has no place.  Rather, our observation is that the vast majority of folks who focus on that path are 1) making a sub-optimal decision (i.e., spend the money on tutoring and such, which is more likely to pay off for that kid) 2) for the wrong reasons (you want to live through your kid's accomplishments).

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Thatguy,

that’s awesome for your daughter.  And surely your must realize how unique she is to be able to attend a quality institution and be able to play high level athletics.  
 

but 95% of sports parents don’t accept that the same opportunity won’t be there for their child.  
 

Every athlete will be told sometime between 18-38 that their time in organized, competitive play is over.  But knowledge and education and the arts last forever.  Seems like you get that you’d be shocked how few other parents do. 

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On 5/13/2024 at 5:29 PM, Brisketexan said:

And....it makes no difference as to whether your kid is going to get a scholarship to a good university or not.   Sure, if you're marginal, maybe putting in exceptional effort bumps you up to get an offer from D2 or D3 U, congrats on your admission and free tuition to Bridgewater State U.  But let's be clear: functionally ZERO kids who get a scholarship offer to a good D1 school (UT, Purdue, Michigan, what have you) got that offer because of the 6 summers they spent playing select ball or somesuch.  When it comes to having D1-level talent, it's a lot like having pro-level talent: you either have it, or you don't.

I remember reading about baseball scouts who could go to high school baseball showcases, with 100 players out on the field showing their stuff.  The scouts commented that they could tell from watching around 30 seconds of a player's action whether he had the stuff to be considered a real prospect, and out of those 100, MAYBE 2-3 players would make that initial cut.  And that's just to be considered a prospect, not a lock to actually make it to the next level.  And I know I've told the story around here about my old law partner whose kids played youth sports with Drew Brees.  It didn't matter if it was blindfolded Albanian Badminton they were playing, Drew was the best athlete on the field.  At everything, always, since he was 5 years old.  No amount of practice or clinics or select ball was going to turn my friend's athletic, skilled kids into Drew Brees.  And Drew's family didn't even let him start playing "select" ball (which everyone else wanted him to do) until late middle school or something like that.  He didn't miss out on any development because he missed several seasons of select ball.  He's got an earned Super Bowl MVP trophy, because he was a god-given great athlete.  That's what it takes.

My son is a good baseball player.  He loves it, played since T-ball.  He's playing now, in an adult rec league overseas, and it makes him happy.  He's one of the better players on a top squad, but he's far from the best.  He gets the experience of being part of a team, meeting folks, travel for games, all the good stuff you want out of sports.  Kids will have a pretty healthy attitude about sports, if their parents will get out of the way.

Tying back to the thread topic: I think the kids are, all-in-all, alright.  It's the adults who are fucky.

And, probably 1.5 at least of those 2-3 "five-tool players" will wash out before making significant money in the bigs.  Ask Billy Beane.

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6 hours ago, YGIFS said:

Thatguy,

that’s awesome for your daughter.  And surely your must realize how unique she is to be able to attend a quality institution and be able to play high level athletics.  
 

but 95% of sports parents don’t accept that the same opportunity won’t be there for their child.  
 

Every athlete will be told sometime between 18-38 that their time in organized, competitive play is over.  But knowledge and education and the arts last forever.  Seems like you get that you’d be shocked how few other parents do. 

I disagree with your take. Most of those sports parents are concerned their kids will not even make the H.S. varsity squad. Most never make varsity and even at the varsity level it's fairly clear who will and won't make the next transition and the majority of parents get that.

 

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You're right for the most part, as usual.  I was just venting as per Lobo, because of two conflations.  This is the time of year my friends and colleagues with rising Seniors doing summer leagues start bugging me to get them some in-roads with Belmont to get their kid more highly recruited (spoiler alert, it rarely happens Bob & Karen because your kid has the athleticism of maybe a NAIA bench warmer) and my daughter's myriad leagues were always pretty lax and fun, but her latest volleyball league...it's just that age I guess where the parents/coaches start getting annoying as fuck.   

Old man yells at clouds.  I know.  Different era and all that.  I grew up just outside Chicago and our leagues were competitive and our coaches were assholes for the most part, but we sent a lot of athletes to Big 10 schools but it was nothing compared to the Athletics Machine in our current ISD.  They've got money, the kids have some modicum of talent but mostly genes inherited from tech nerds, but the industry machine just latched on here and convinced all the kids and parents to pour tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time into some bullshit to benefit the Athletics Machine that is our High School.  I didn't really see it until just recently /rant

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On 5/17/2024 at 4:53 PM, Brisketexan said:

And....you just described the perfect case for a kid for whom athletics and a D-1 scholarship may be the perfect path.

I don't think any of us said that the D-1 scholarship path has no place.  Rather, our observation is that the vast majority of folks who focus on that path are 1) making a sub-optimal decision (i.e., spend the money on tutoring and such, which is more likely to pay off for that kid) 2) for the wrong reasons (you want to live through your kid's accomplishments).

 

On 5/17/2024 at 5:23 PM, YGIFS said:

Thatguy,

that’s awesome for your daughter.  And surely your must realize how unique she is to be able to attend a quality institution and be able to play high level athletics.  
 

but 95% of sports parents don’t accept that the same opportunity won’t be there for their child.  
 

Every athlete will be told sometime between 18-38 that their time in organized, competitive play is over.  But knowledge and education and the arts last forever.  Seems like you get that you’d be shocked how few other parents do. 

 

Speaking from my experience with my kid, in this era you have to spend money on your kid just to find out if your kid even has the chops to play at the high school level much less college. Where we live all the kids on the school teams play some sort of club/select/aau ball. My kid barely made the 7th grade b team. Had we just thrown our hands in the air and not kept going with instructions and lessons she wouldn't be where she is.

In volleyball, a parent has to keep a keen eye as to what is going on. Your kid can have talent but be playing out of position and end up getting washed out early. For example, our kid was playing middle blocker when she was 12, but wasn't going to be tall enough to play that position in high school. The club "needed her" to play that position( didn't care that she wasn't right for it long term), but we recognized it wasn't going to be for her and went to another club. She made the top team over there and then the first club saw what she looked like playing her new position and offered her free tuition to come back.

By this time she is playing 15s(freshman in high school) and we can see she has the talent to play in college so we keep going. Despite what you guys are saying, that is the time that parents with kids who don't have the talent to play collegiate sports fall off. The kids start dropping out of the sport, and the 16/17/18s age groups at the club have less teams. Now she is likely a few months from signing a letter and she just turned 16 this month.

I said all that to say this. Had we thrown our hands up in the air at the first sign of difficulty she wouldn't be where she is. Along the way we've seen a lot of kids fall by the wayside who would've been good if they had supportive parents. We have been accused of being THOSE parents, both here and in real life. However, now that she is officially being recruited those accusations look a little stupid. Even if she decided she didn't want to keep going the life lessons she has learned through sports and the travel experiences are something that will stick with her forever.

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On 5/19/2024 at 4:01 AM, Thatguy said:

Even if she decided she didn't want to keep going the life lessons she has learned through sports and the travel experiences are something that will stick with her forever.

Ultimately, that's a really important takeaway.  Shit, we paid for private coaching for our son (Wylie Campbell is a great dude, and remains a good friend to us and our son) to improve his game so that he could keep doing something that he really loved.  If that had elevated to the level of "he's good enough to be recruited," cool - there's some payoff.  But even if all it accomplished was "he got to keep doing something he loved, and have great experiences and lessons that will stick with him," it was worthwhile.

There are definitely other reasons to participate in elite level sports, get private coaching, etc., other than "this is an investment to get into college."  So long as those remain true, and "we have to do this so he/she will get recruited" isn't the ONLY reason you're investing that time and money, go for it.

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On 5/17/2024 at 11:29 PM, F250 said:

I disagree with your take. Most of those sports parents are concerned their kids will not even make the H.S. varsity squad. Most never make varsity and even at the varsity level it's fairly clear who will and won't make the next transition and the majority of parents get that.

 

I agree with you, but also think this makes the behavior worse, not justifiable. 

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On 5/19/2024 at 4:01 AM, Thatguy said:

 

 

Speaking from my experience with my kid, in this era you have to spend money on your kid just to find out if your kid even has the chops to play at the high school level much less college. Where we live all the kids on the school teams play some sort of club/select/aau ball. My kid barely made the 7th grade b team. Had we just thrown our hands in the air and not kept going with instructions and lessons she wouldn't be where she is.

 

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Ultimately, that's a really important takeaway.  Shit, we paid for private coaching for our son (Wylie Campbell is a great dude, and remains a good friend to us and our son) to improve his game so that he could keep doing something that he really loved.  If that had elevated to the level of "he's good enough to be recruited," cool - there's some payoff.  But even if all it accomplished was "he got to keep doing something he loved, and have great experiences and lessons that will stick with him," it was worthwhile.

There are definitely other reasons to participate in elite level sports, get private coaching, etc., other than "this is an investment to get into college."  So long as those remain true, and "we have to do this so he/she will get recruited" isn't the ONLY reason you're investing that time and money, go for it.

As a father of 3 boys between 11-15, this is something I have learned.  I used to be snarky about youth sports, and how could people possibly pay this or that.  Give up that weekend, etc.  They're never going to be in the big leagues!

Then you realize that, at many schools, football is about the only sport you can just sign up and be on the team no mater.  My kids are decent athletes and we've sweated baseball, soccer, tennis and basketball tryouts for years now.  

For many, its just doing what you need to do to play JV sports.  And if they want to keep doing it in HS, awesome.  And if God reaches down and touches their right arm and give them the ability to throw 95+, awesome too.  But very few are banking on that to happen.

HS coaches still develop players, but most decent programs expect to (on developmental scale of 1-10) take 7's and get them to 10, not take 2's and get them to 7's.  Unless you are an elite raw athlete, if you expect to play baseball, basketball, soccer, or many others, you need to be playing it at more than a casual level by the time you're 12-13.  That's obviously not everyone or every school, but in my experience, the majority.

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2 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

 

As a father of 3 boys between 11-15, this is something I have learned.  I used to be snarky about youth sports, and how could people possibly pay this or that.  Give up that weekend, etc.  They're never going to be in the big leagues!

Then you realize that, at many schools, football is about the only sport you can just sign up and be on the team no mater.  My kids are decent athletes and we've sweated baseball, soccer, tennis and basketball tryouts for years now.  

For many, its just doing what you need to do to play JV sports.  And if they want to keep doing it in HS, awesome.  And if God reaches down and touches their right arm and give them the ability to throw 95+, awesome too.  But very few are banking on that to happen.

HS coaches still develop players, but most decent programs expect to (on developmental scale of 1-10) take 7's and get them to 10, not take 2's and get them to 7's.  Unless you are an elite raw athlete, if you expect to play baseball, basketball, soccer, or many others, you need to be playing it at more than a casual level by the time you're 12-13.  That's obviously not everyone or every school, but in my experience, the majority.

To add to this, they usually love it.  My 11 year old told me last night he wishes he had baseball practice every night.  Thank god for me, he doesn't.  Once they lose interest or stop wanting to go to every single practice, we sit down and have a talk about the time and money dedicated and usually make the decision to stop playing that particular sport.  Baseball ended with both of my oldest at 12.  I definitely do not see those years as a waste though.  Some of the best times of all of our lives.

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On 5/13/2024 at 10:37 PM, Brisketexan said:

A big problem is that the rising tide of the last 40+ years hasn't lifted all boats in proportion.  The worker is making $50k...and has seen his real wages stagnate as productivity has shot up. 
 

this is categorically false. it can be shown in a million measurements over any time frame that wealth and wages in real terms have increased for factory workers, restaurant workers, non-supervisory workers, low percentile earning workers, ad infinitum. and ive shown it here repeatedly.

i dont know why people keep persisting this myth about the common worker….but the answer is embedded in this graphic, from todays Federal Reserve publication of a survey of 11,000 people across all economic statuses:

IMG_6484.thumb.jpeg.ea33b32a87da643cd971b750dfdfb6a0.jpeg

“Everybody else is suffering except for me”. Im no psychologist but uh…is this Messiah Complex or something?

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7 minutes ago, F250 said:

I'm not following. What behavior?

The behavior YGIFS was discussing of parents living through their kids and pushing them beyond the point of what they have any interest in.  Obviously, it's not every sports parent, but it's a lot of them.  If you know your kid has no shot at excelling at a sport, and they're not even passionate about it, and you still act like a maniac spending countless dollars and time pushing it on them rather than helping them figure out what they're actually good at, that's even worse than a parent harboring delusions of scholarships and future professional contracts.   The latter is just stupid, but the former is knowingly doing their kid a disservice. 

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14 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

The behavior YGIFS was discussing of parents living through their kids and pushing them beyond the point of what they have any interest in.  Obviously, it's not every sports parent, but it's a lot of them.  If you know your kid has no shot at excelling at a sport, and they're not even passionate about it, and you still act like a maniac spending countless dollars and time pushing it on them rather than helping them figure out what they're actually good at, that's even worse than a parent harboring delusions of scholarships and future professional contracts.   The latter is just stupid, but the former is knowingly doing their kid a disservice. 

My son never had good enough vision for baseball, was too slow for football, or track. We pivoted to hunting, fishing, restoring cars, and scuba diving. Those are still his passions and what he loves to do to this day. His new passion is learning to make World-class bbq and boil crawfish for people's parties on the weekend. 

We never tried to pigeonhole him into any particular sport or activity. Just present activities that he was free to choose to enjoy, or he can take it or leave it. The decision was always his on what he wanted to do with his spare time.

CHIEF

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22 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

The behavior YGIFS was discussing of parents living through their kids and pushing them beyond the point of what they have any interest in.  Obviously, it's not every sports parent, but it's a lot of them.  If you know your kid has no shot at excelling at a sport, and they're not even passionate about it, and you still act like a maniac spending countless dollars and time pushing it on them rather than helping them figure out what they're actually good at, that's even worse than a parent harboring delusions of scholarships and future professional contracts.   The latter is just stupid, but the former is knowingly doing their kid a disservice. 

In my experience, this is not very common. You don't really see this type of behavior beyond the little kid levels. There is a reason youth sports participation drops off after 12 years old and it's usually a lack of interest by the kid.

I would also add that I think club sports under 12 is ridiculous. Most of the insane parental behavior takes place at the little kid levels not teen.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/19/2024 at 4:01 AM, Thatguy said:

 

By this time she is playing 15s(freshman in high school) and we can see she has the talent to play in college so we keep going. Despite what you guys are saying, that is the time that parents with kids who don't have the talent to play collegiate sports fall off. The kids start dropping out of the sport, and the 16/17/18s age groups at the club have less teams

A few years ago I had the honor (lol) of having to spend weeks in Omaha for a project. Well I just so happened to be staying in the same hotel as some of the Big 12 teams in the NCAA volleyball final four or whatever their tournament is. It was whatever year the SDSU jackrabbits made it because I remember their huge bus being obnoxious (I guess other teams flew). 

Anyways, I was taking an elevator to breakfast one morning and in walks the Nebraska volley ball girls and I immediately knew my niece would never be a D1 volleyball player, despite her earnest desire. Each of these girls dwarfed me, and I’m 6’1. Their quads were as wide as my waists and their wingspans were impressive for any man. I’m talking 6’6 women. This was Nebraska but I’d see the same from Michigan, Baylor, and Tennessee. My assumption from that experience was the blue blood schools are getting the best breeds and stock of girls, and if you aren’t 6 foot+, it might be hard to get a look unless you are like the lone position where it’s okay to be a shortie.

I say all that to say and to your point, unless your girl is going to be tall (and you can generally tell by teens) then you might start focusing your investments (time, mental, physical and monetary) elsewhere. Much like a kid who loves basketball but at 16 is still 5’9.

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32 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

My son never had good enough vision for baseball, was too slow for football, or track. We pivoted to hunting, fishing, restoring cars, and scuba diving. Those are still his passions and what he loves to do to this day. His new passion is learning to make World-class bbq and boil crawfish for people's parties on the weekend. 

We never tried to pigeonhole him into any particular sport or activity. Just present activities that he was free to choose to enjoy, or he can take it or leave it. The decision was always his on what he wanted to do with his spare time.

CHIEF

There is definitely a need to balance guidance and freedom for one's kids. Guidance shouldn't be very restrictive and there needs to be room for kids to explore to discover their own passions outside of their parents interests.

One of my kid's developed a passion for music and we were not a musical family. But when he requested it, I paid for lessons and purchased instruments and accessories. I don't know a damn thing about music but I supported him the best I could which came down to financial support and just being interested in his musical efforts.

 

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There is definitely a need to balance guidance and freedom for one's kids. Guidance shouldn't be very restrictive and there needs to be room for kids to explore to discover their own passions outside of their parents interests.
One of my kid's developed a passion for music and we were not a musical family. But when he requested it, I paid for lessons and purchased instruments and accessories. I don't know a damn thing about music but I supported him the best I could which came down to financial support and just being interested in his musical efforts.
 

….and now he’s having to fight off the chicks.
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Yeah, the size thing is just a fact of athletics.  You just have to have it to play high level VB, Hoops, etc.  You can get by just on grit and work to play collegiate soccer, cross country, swim, softball, rowing/crew, etc.  Track and tennis and golf are not so much size, but you just gotta be insanely and naturally talented.  and then i guess shooting, meat judging, and riding horses are in there somewhere.  Or you can just shoot the horse and judge its meat.  I dunno how that shit works.  

But remember this young men.  There are no LaCrosse groupies.  There aren't girls that care if you get a D-II offer to play golf at directional state University.  But you learn the guitar or drums and write some music and get some gigs while you're in college, the pussy just comes out of the woodwork.  Remember that fellas.  And brush up on finance and biology while you're at it.  

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12 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Uh......Phrasing......

Ha.  It could be a Philly you know.  Sickie.  

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

That's a fantastic lie.

I dunno, I guess theres a couple of guys at Duke and Johns Hopkins getting some ass due to the sport.  But I'm not white enough to have ever played.  But it's a big sport at our ISD and the kids of my friends that play are also under the impression they're doing to Georgetown on scholarship to play and kinda act like d-bags.  Maybe it works for 'em, I dunno.  

For 100 years, football and being in a band.  Those are how you get ass.  Also, meat judging.  

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32 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


….and now he’s having to fight off the chicks.

You would be surprised by how a not very good H.S. garage band doing terrible Green Day tributes brings in the ladies.

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I should also mention that when you are Gen-X and drinking beer on a Sunday afternoon don't bother yelling "Play some Skynyrd!" at the Gen-Z band. They just don't get it.

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Do dudes that just play EDM/ipods/laptop kinda music......are they still pulling trim?  

I remember taking up the Saxophone because of Rob Lowe looking so cool in "Saint Elmo's Fire."  Got pretty good at it but it not bring in the ass I thought it would because I forgot he looks like Rob Lowe, and I look like me.  Guitar was fun, but I never got that great at it and finished up with drums in my teens and 20's.  I think the last piece of ass I closed from music was this house party there the dad had this whole studio setup and was outta town.  And this dude started playing guitar (and another guy on bass) 'Honky Tonk Women' by the Stones and I got on the drum kit and just nailed it.  And KK and I hung out all weekend and it was quite pleasant.  

If I were a young man today, I would get great an instrument toot sweet and get in a band and play some free shows.  Because we are coming to the end of properly played live music.  In 15 years time, there'll be no more instrument-driven rock.  There'll still be live music festivals and shit but a girl will look at a guy playing a fender and think, "That's so old-timey and creepy.  Whatever..."  The music will endure, but the way it's delivered is on its way out the door.  Sadly.  Used to also impress me how much ass my standup comic friends could pull.  But they're all older and married now.  And then it became a thing where if you were a Chef, you could pull ass (could still be the case).  Kyle Kinane took that whole dynamic of rock star/comic/chef and has a bit about how Chefs are the new 'Bad Boys' and getting ass because they have a whisk tattoo and featured in their local cultural magazine, "is this the new face of pasta primavera."  

I can't find the clip, but there's a great interview with Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson of Rush.  And they talk about the "Rush Contraditcion."  Incredibly successful band, insanely talented, rich as hell, but they joked that for some reason they just never got groupies or women interested in them.  They'd come to the shows and come backstage and get a hug and a beer, but almost no sex.  Here they were, one of the biggest bands of the 1970's and 1980's, and meanwhile fucking Def Leppard and Motley Crue are judging blowjob contests and a legit all-time rock band like Rush can't get a bra thrown at 'em.  I think even Kenny G got a threesome at some point.

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2 minutes ago, F250 said:

I should also mention that when you are Gen-X and drinking beer on a Sunday afternoon don't bother yelling "Play some Skynyrd!" at the Gen-Z band. They just don't get it.

Don't be a hater.  Plenty of good Genz bands.  You just haven't seen them because you're old.

 

Random example... This band cranks in concert.  I went to see a few different groups, but these guys went HARD.  Great show, tons of talent in the crowd too.  Also I felt old AF... as the kids say.

Didn't play any Skynard, but did play a cover of the The Damned.

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2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

this is categorically false. it can be shown in a million measurements over any time frame that wealth and wages in real terms have increased for factory workers, restaurant workers, non-supervisory workers, low percentile earning workers, ad infinitum. and ive shown it here repeatedly.

i dont know why people keep persisting this myth about the common worker….but the answer is embedded in this graphic, from todays Federal Reserve publication of a survey of 11,000 people across all economic statuses:

IMG_6484.thumb.jpeg.ea33b32a87da643cd971b750dfdfb6a0.jpeg

“Everybody else is suffering except for me”. Im no psychologist but uh…is this Messiah Complex or something?

So here's the thing. Wages going up but productivity staying flat or going down is pretty obvious to everyone involved. 

Look at the rise of grift in crypto nft and now AI. It's crazy and yet we have little to no real productivity gain because of these things. 

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24 minutes ago, immamac said:

Look at the rise of grift in crypto nft and now AI. It's crazy and yet we have little to no real productivity gain because of these things. 

Your issue then is about how people in the market deploy their labor/productivity, not the underlying economic conditions. 

That talented software engineers are spending their time writing blockchain apps and people are throwing cash at monkey jpegs tell me its a luxury afforded by having good economic conditions. 

If you could code but were financially destitute, you’d work on improving ad-targeting for google to get that sweet steady W2. 

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On 5/16/2024 at 3:14 PM, tbone_ said:

Very millennial to not know what your generation was called.

I thought if I'm born in 1976, that makes me a younger GenX'er, no?  My point was that millennials aren'y really these young sassy folks anymore.  They certainly grew up differently than most of us, but I mean---they're coming up on their mid-40's.  They're not these unmannered kids anymore with loud music and screen addictions.  They're the guy right next to you at work going to pick up his kid from junior varsity tennis practice in a few minutes.  

Anyway, I meant Filly, not Philly.  But either way, it's a very handsome sportswatch.  I have the ladies version and wear it frequently to play golf.  

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46 minutes ago, F250 said:

I should also mention that when you are Gen-X and drinking beer on a Sunday afternoon don't bother yelling "Play some Skynyrd!" at the Gen-Z band. They just don't get it.

Dude.....are you me?

Also, I had a BRIEF moment in a singing group.  I'm a bass.  I mean, all the way at the bottom octaves bass.  Had NO idea that would be a thing.  First time I sang a solo bass line of a song in front of a crowd, and all the girls screamed with delight....I was 1) stunned, and 2) ROYALLY pissed off I hadn't figured out that I could sing when I was younger and it would have helped me out more in that department.

My wife doesn't even give a shit about my singing voice, she just rolls her eyes when I get to singing with my friends and whatnot.  Sigh.

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8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

That talented software engineers are spending their time writing blockchain apps and people are throwing cash at monkey jpegs tell me its a luxury afforded by having good economic conditions. 

TIL rampant fraud is ACKSHUALLY a good thing

 

9 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

If you could code but were financially destitute, you’d work on improving ad-targeting for google to get that sweet steady W2. 

Tell me you don't know how software development works without telling me. Sorry there's no FRED chart for you to outsource your thinking to, slugger. 

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22 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Your issue then is about how people in the market deploy their labor/productivity, not the underlying economic conditions. 

That talented software engineers are spending their time writing blockchain apps and people are throwing cash at monkey jpegs tell me its a luxury afforded by having good economic conditions. 

If you could code but were financially destitute, you’d work on improving ad-targeting for google to get that sweet steady W2. 

You are making my exact point for me. It's made up productivity on a sham economy. Peoples personal finance is fine because they are part of the grift but they know it's a grift nonetheless. 

12 minutes ago, Captainant said:

TIL rampant fraud is ACKSHUALLY a good thing

 

Tell me you don't know how software development works without telling me. Sorry there's no FRED chart for you to outsource your thinking to, slugger. 

The issue isn't necessarily rampant fraud as much as it is a rampant debt and PE fueled ponzi scheme. 

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9 minutes ago, immamac said:

The issue isn't necessarily rampant fraud as much as it is a rampant debt and PE fueled ponzi scheme. 

Call me old fashioned, but a ponzi scheme is fraud in my book. And using that to generate debt that you intend to default on and leave them with worthless collateral is exactly rampant fraud. That's the same private equity move too that's used to hostilely take over a company, load it with debt, and then scamper off with the cash while the company goes bankrupt and the debt becomes worthless or pennies on the dollar 

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1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Call me old fashioned, but a ponzi scheme is fraud in my book. And using that to generate debt that you intend to default on and leave them with worthless collateral is exactly rampant fraud. That's the same private equity move too that's used to hostilely take over a company, load it with debt, and then scamper off with the cash while the company goes bankrupt and the debt becomes worthless or pennies on the dollar 

The best timeline. 

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10 hours ago, immamac said:

You are making my exact point for me. It's made up productivity on a sham economy. Peoples personal finance is fine because they are part of the grift but they know it's a grift nonetheless. 

The issue isn't necessarily rampant fraud as much as it is a rampant debt and PE fueled ponzi scheme. 

The entire 'capitalization' of the cryptosphere is smaller than 1 company in the SPX.  It is a mere byproduct of financial surplus.

If you want to say that the SPX itself is overvalued, in big part due to excessive liquidity, thanks to the Fed's directionally-bad overaccomodation of the Govt's appetite for debt spending.... hey, nice to see you in the party; keg's in the back.

If you want to say people in aggregate are poor, we know that's factually wrong. 

If you want to say crypto is this malignant thing that should be eradicated because its so morally wrong what people do with their disposable money -- which I dont think you are saying -- leave it to the authoritarian church ladies to preach that apocalyptism.  Few as they are, theres enough of their hysteria for one board.

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2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

If you want to say people in aggregate are poor, we know that's factually wrong. 

If you want to hide behind statistics then sure, the average American is doing great on paper. But the reality is that the average is basically in a different solar system of earning from the median wage, often 50% greater but up to 2-2.5x greater depending on the inequity that exists in that state. 

Now don't go and get it twisted and put words in my mouth that I'm somehow advocating for everyone to earn the same thing no matter what work they do. But you are completely decoupled from objective reality from whatever board room you exist in or under. You can keep telling people the sky is purple, but it doesn't make it true. 

The money is out there for wage earners to live a dignified life, but it's usually either fraudulently stolen from their wages and passed onto shareholders or it's just plain withheld and the workers are kept on a wage slave earning scale that limits their ability to seek new jobs for fear of missing a paycheck and going under. 

 

The run of the mill American is doing pretty poorly if they don't already own a house and a vacation house and have a stock portfolio. The ladder has been pulled up for a long, long time. And no amount of you pissing on my leg and saying it's raining is gonna change that 

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