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The Kids (Aren't) Alright - World Happiness Report


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2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

If I’m talking to someone I’m close to and care about I’ll let them stage set and then ask: “tell me what you most need from me— are you needing my support, are you looking for my best objective advice, or do you just need to vent?”  It’s a useful way to frame things and people will admit they just want to vent or want to hear support more often than you’d think. If they choose “advice” and then immediately start telling me why I’m wrong or the advice won’t work, then I tell them that no one knows their own situation and what they are able to live with better than they do and stop giving advice. 
 

With work randos I’ll run through the “wow, dang, that’s really tough” cycle. And at the end say something like “sounds like you’ve got some hard decisions, what do you think is the best choice?” Then affirm whatever they say and send them on their way. 
 

I find people are rarely grateful for, or seeking actual insight. 

Thank you for this response. I have found that for whatever reason the entirety of my adult life people will spill out their guts to me whether they know me well or not. Sometimes I hear hours worth of the life of a stranger, but it’s cool. I will truly listen to most anyone because it allows them to get out what bothers them and I in turn learn more about people, which for me is pretty interesting. 
 

The advice I give is usually taken pretty well, but I frame it in a way to where I do not say something that I haven’t been through myself. I always tells folks don’t fall on your face as many times as I did before you get it right. 

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wait, where do y'all live in Texas that anyone GAF about Spanish surnames?

Are you implying that Hispanics in Texas are not subject to prejudicial, racist or discriminatory behavior? Despite all of the fucking history in Texas that can demonstrate it, is this the point you are trying to make?
 

Yeah…I mean…I live in “The Texas part of Texas.” You know, the part that for decades had actual Juan Crow laws, and the part that doesn’t want us to vote today. Among a crapload of other shit. And the part that questions whether we’re REAL Americans loyal to our country, cuz, you know….dirty beaners.
Jesus. The fucking purposeful ignorance of reality.
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Posted (edited)

This isn't really hard. Traditional social and community networks are being degraded, the replacements lack substance in a holistic sense, and the pace of the transition is not something that the human species has previously navigated. The ability to perceive anxiety and depression are natural responses that we have evolved. Maybe protective, maybe culling. I guess we will find out. 

 

Edited by Anastasis
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9 hours ago, Anastasis said:

This isn't really hard. Traditional social and community networks are being degraded, the replacements lack substance in a holistic sense, and the pace of the transition is not something that the human species has previously navigated. The ability to perceive anxiety and depression are natural responses that we have evolved. Maybe protective, maybe culling. I guess we will find out. 

 

Boom.

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In hopeful news, social media app use is down across the board.  Musk’s shit show is the worst, of course. 
 

I’d he curious to see what the demographics are. I’d bet olds are using apps more than youngs. My pre-teens tell me that being an “iPad kid” is lame. I am on social media passively for work and have noticed that the twenty somethings post a lot less than 30 and up even if they maintain a presence. 

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The fucking olds are on social media 10x more than anyone else. My mother and father (mid 60’s) are the worst offenders. Not a single visit with them goes by where one or both them will go off on some societal/political rant, and when you make the unfortunate mistake of engaging them like I do, you discover the rant to be based upon something “I heard”. Ask a few more questions and they didn’t actually “hear” anything; they saw a fucking meme from some slapdick troll account named Barry Mccockinner and ran with it. These are intelligent, college educated people getting spun up by total nonsense. Absolutely insane.

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2 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

The fucking olds are on social media 10x more than anyone else. My mother and father (mid 60’s) are the worst offenders. Not a single visit with them goes by where one or both them will go off on some societal/political rant, and when you make the unfortunate mistake of engaging them like I do, you discover the rant to be based upon something “I heard”. Ask a few more questions and they didn’t actually “hear” anything; they saw a fucking meme from some slapdick troll account named Barry Mccockinner and ran with it. These are intelligent, college educated people getting spun up by total nonsense. Absolutely insane.

It’s like having the TV on nonstop at home, noise that you don’t realize is actually soaking in. 

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14 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

In hopeful news, social media app use is down across the board.  Musk’s shit show is the worst, of course. 
 

I’d he curious to see what the demographics are. I’d bet olds are using apps more than youngs. My pre-teens tell me that being an “iPad kid” is lame. I am on social media passively for work and have noticed that the twenty somethings post a lot less than 30 and up even if they maintain a presence. 

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I have some younger cousins in middle/high school. You’re definitely considered lame among them if you post on social media a lot. 
 

There’s also a weird badge of honor thing to have a lot of followers on instagram while having just a couple or even zero pictures posted.

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It’s like having the TV on nonstop at home, noise that you don’t realize is actually soaking in. 

I don’t understand the willful ignorance of people, my parents included. I also don’t understand the intentional consumption of negativity.

Example: I opened Instagram this morning while finishing up my cardio because it’s a distraction from the mundane. Chad Prather was at the top of my feed. I started following him 7-8?? years ago because he was a standup comedian that I found humorous. He has now morphed into a hateful, absolute lunatic right wing nutter . The video that he posted this morning was him reacting/responding to a Dylan Mulvaney post, and of course it was hateful and derogatory. I did what I should have done long ago and unfollowed Chad. Not because I am a fan of Mr./Mrs. Mulvaney because I am not at all, but because I refuse to intentionally subject myself to that kind of negativity. It has to be a truly miserable existence to devote so much of your time and energy to being negative like that. But there are hundreds/thousands of comments on that post and many others just like it that echo Chad’s words or add even more hatefulness to them.
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Good times produce weak men, we’re somewhere on that trajectory. As a parent of Gen alphas, and that is hilariously ironic, I can tell you that generation is going to struggle. Between missing formative years of school from COVID and their addiction to these little iPads I see at every dinner table, they’re turbo fucked. 

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10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

This isn't really hard. Traditional social and community networks are being degraded, the replacements lack substance in a holistic sense, and the pace of the transition is not something that the human species has previously navigated. The ability to perceive anxiety and depression are natural responses that we have evolved. Maybe protective, maybe culling. I guess we will find out.

"Traditional Social Networks?"  Are you talking about the American/Western atomic family, or?  97% of humans whom have ever existed did not live in what that type of model.  97% of all humans were not born to Judeo-Christian wed parents.  It was something we invented to hide our shame.  

10 minutes ago, Poester said:

Good times produce weak men, we’re somewhere on that trajectory. As a parent of Gen alphas, and that is hilariously ironic, I can tell you that generation is going to struggle. Between missing formative years of school from COVID and their addiction to these little iPads I see at every dinner table, they’re turbo fucked. 

Yeah, I used to think I was old man yelling at clouds.  But spending more time on my school board and cyberbullying and counselors talking about screen addiction and shit, I've finally opened my eyes.  This is actually a real thing.  We can whine as old men about participation trophies and lack of respect and tattoos and all that.  But it's becoming incredibly apparently young brains are simply not "jiving" with frequent screen interaction.  I'm not judging 'em, but we spent an hour a day at school in the computer lab and maybe an hour of TV at night and some VHS movies on the weekends, and we didn't turn out great---but we made it out alive.  This is just fucking nuts.  We had two meetings on this past week with some experts (who granted were there to sell our ISD their services, but the data don't lie).  It's getting way fucking weirder way fucking faster than I initially thought.  I mean, we were fine with during Kinder when she was remote learning and face-timiing with friends 'n shit (she was getting a healthy dose of distance playing with young kinds in our 'hood and local park).  And then it reached a healthy balance in 1st and 2nd, but now in 3rd...it's getting surreal.  We implement a lot of timers and rules 'n shit, but it's hard to do when half her fucking class has cell phones already.  I was just naive about it.  I knew it'd be an issue for her, but maybe not until junior high.  Not freakin' 3rd grade.  /cloudrant

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40 minutes ago, Poester said:

Good times produce weak men, we’re somewhere on that trajectory. As a parent of Gen alphas, and that is hilariously ironic, I can tell you that generation is going to struggle. Between missing formative years of school from COVID and their addiction to these little iPads I see at every dinner table, they’re turbo fucked. 

If this is the metric, it would follow that the weakest men were born from the 50s-90s. Exactly the demographic that would be in charge of running everything now.

Oh....

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1 hour ago, YGIFS said:

"Traditional Social Networks?"  Are you talking about the American/Western atomic family, or?  97% of humans whom have ever existed did not live in what that type of model.  97% of all humans were not born to Judeo-Christian wed parents.  It was something we invented to hide our shame.  

I think if I were to try to reduce it to the principal component, it would be, you know, like, real world social interactions between humans. You can tell me what you mean by the "American/Western atomic family" and we could talk about that I guess, and I do think that the human family unit is important and that a culture that supports the family unit in all of its shapes and sizes in a good thing. I personally think that a multigenerational family unit that involves social interactions between individuals across the entire spectrum of the human life cycle has certain benefits. But the social network is not just the family unit. That is just one aspect you zeroed in on. 

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3 hours ago, Helobious said:

There’s also a weird badge of honor thing to have a lot of followers on instagram while having just a couple or even zero pictures posted

All their posts are on their finsta 

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34 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I think if I were to try to reduce it to the principal component, it would be, you know, like, real world social interactions between humans. You can tell me what you mean by the "American/Western atomic family" and we could talk about that I guess, and I do think that the human family unit is important and that a culture that supports the family unit in all of its shapes and sizes in a good thing. I personally think that a multigenerational family unit that involves social interactions between individuals across the entire spectrum of the human life cycle has certain benefits. But the social network is not just the family unit. That is just one aspect you zeroed in on. 

Yeah, I was talking more about the in-person "social network" as opposed to what we now think of as the "social network" in the media/online/digital sense.  Shit, that's a head-scratcher for another thread.  We don't even know what the fuck we're talking about when we say "community" or "social interaction" because of where's it's gone.  Whole other nightmare to unpack.  Woo-hoo!  Happy Palm Sunday everybody!  Heading into the Disch for some god-given baseball.  

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If this is the metric, it would follow that the weakest men were born from the 50s-90s. Exactly the demographic that would be in charge of running everything now.
Oh....

See our systemic racism is just building future good men!
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On 3/24/2024 at 12:33 AM, Anastasis said:

Haidt has been tracking this for some time now.  His previous book "fragility of the American mind" addressed this as well.  Story is behind a paywall, but I've followed him on enough podcasts to know what he's talking about - specifically regarding cell phones.  He teaches as at NYU.  He asked his class why so many are on social media.  The primary answer all parent hear is that everyone else is.  His next question was if everyone else was off, ie., these sites were shut down, would you support that.  Almost all said yes.  The kids see the problems, they are just sucked into the gravity of all their peers being on them as well.

His new book has four steps he's pushing for to try and get these kids off these damn sites.  They escape me at the moment, but the point was it wasn't covid that sent so many into a tailspin.  The rates were already skyrocketing well before covid.

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Just now, BabaYaga said:

Haidt has been tracking this for some time now.  His previous book "fragility of the American mind" addressed this as well.  Story is behind a paywall, but I've followed him on enough podcasts to know what he's talking about - specifically regarding cell phones.  He teaches as at NYU.  He asked his class why so many are on social media.  The primary answer all parent hear is that everyone else is.  His next question was if everyone else was off, ie., these sites were shut down, would you support that.  Almost all said yes.  The kids see the problems, they are just sucked into the gravity of all their peers being on them as well.

His new book has four steps he's pushing for to try and get these kids off these damn sites.  They escape me at the moment, but the point was it wasn't covid that sent so many into a tailspin.  The rates were already skyrocketing well before covid.

IMO you're missing the bigger picture if your end course of action is to demonize a particular type of website. The bigger problem that enabled and fuels and allows the micro targeting and doomscrolling, is that it's open season on buying and selling user data. My wife bought some pregnancy books on Amazon, and all of a sudden Instagram was pushing all sorts of horrific pregnancy stories to her feed. It was like as soon as one entity knew, they all knew, and they all wanted to put the most upsetting thing in front of her that would keep her scrolling. 

Yes, social media was the mechanism that actually expressed the negativity - but it would not be so all encompassing and overwhelming if people had any sort of right to privacy on the internet. THAT is the larger and more common denominator, moreso than any one type of website

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4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Haidt has been tracking this for some time now.  His previous book "fragility of the American mind" addressed this as well.  Story is behind a paywall, but I've followed him on enough podcasts to know what he's talking about - specifically regarding cell phones.  He teaches as at NYU.  He asked his class why so many are on social media.  The primary answer all parent hear is that everyone else is.  His next question was if everyone else was off, ie., these sites were shut down, would you support that.  Almost all said yes.  The kids see the problems, they are just sucked into the gravity of all their peers being on them as well.

His new book has four steps he's pushing for to try and get these kids off these damn sites.  They escape me at the moment, but the point was it wasn't covid that sent so many into a tailspin.  The rates were already skyrocketing well before covid.

We absolutely ran into some of this with our children and the worst offender was the ISD and I told them so. Setting aside peer pressure (and that goes for adults pressuring other adults as well), we had made the decision: no phone until 8th grade and had stuck by that but the *schools made it more and more difficult with classroom techniques ('everyone pull out your phones and ____") and so on. I met with teachers, administrators, etc but it was yelling into the fog. We used the phone as a tool, rather like a map, but many adults use it like a pacifier--both for themselves and for their children.

 

*All of our children were post 8th by pandemic occurence.

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3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

IMO you're missing the bigger picture if your end course of action is to demonize a particular type of website. The bigger problem that enabled and fuels and allows the micro targeting and doomscrolling, is that it's open season on buying and selling user data. My wife bought some pregnancy books on Amazon, and all of a sudden Instagram was pushing all sorts of horrific pregnancy stories to her feed. It was like as soon as one entity knew, they all knew, and they all wanted to put the most upsetting thing in front of her that would keep her scrolling. 

Yes, social media was the mechanism that actually expressed the negativity - but it would not be so all encompassing and overwhelming if people had any sort of right to privacy on the internet. THAT is the larger and more common denominator, moreso than any one type of website

Same--wedding related purchases, announcements push weight loss regimens and diet products to women....relative was relating this to me and it's really maddening and also sad.

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6 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

We absolutely ran into some of this with our children and the worst offender was the ISD and I told them so. Setting aside peer pressure (and that goes for adults pressuring other adults as well), we had made the decision: no phone until 8th grade and had stuck by that but the *schools made it more and more difficult with classroom techniques ('everyone pull out your phones and ____") and so on. I met with teachers, administrators, etc but it was yelling into the fog. We used the phone as a tool, rather like a map, but many adults use it like a pacifier--both for themselves and for their children.

 

*All of our children were post 8th by pandemic occurence.

I know more than a few people that are switching back to the old flip phone.  Calls.  Texts.  That's basically it.  They seem to love it.  Problem with doing this with kids is the amount of shit their peers will rain down on them with their new smart phones.  

We've tried to mitigate this with both kids via sports.  Get the kids outside.  Put them in situations where they are being pushed.  Earn "real" accolades.  Not clicks and likes.  Create your own gravity, and do not get sucked into that of others.  We have land, so spending time out there helps, albeit I recognize it's a gift not all have.  Oldest boy likes to game, so we now go to the shooting range every weekend and rent "those guns" he plays with.  It's expensive, but he loves it.  This weekend we compared 1911's to the "John Wick" guns he sees in the movies with comp slides and reticles.  He likes the 1911.  Frisco Gun range has an SBR.  "Ok kid, let me see what you got".  Loading the mags is a PITA.  Not like the games huh?  Oh, and they're loud AS SHIT.  Not easy to hold steady are they?  Spent casing hit you in the face?  

He still loves it, but the perspective is there as well.  Now all he wants to do is practice, so it's a start.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

We absolutely ran into some of this with our children and the worst offender was the ISD and I told them so. Setting aside peer pressure (and that goes for adults pressuring other adults as well), we had made the decision: no phone until 8th grade and had stuck by that but the *schools made it more and more difficult with classroom techniques ('everyone pull out your phones and ____") and so on. I met with teachers, administrators, etc but it was yelling into the fog. We used the phone as a tool, rather like a map, but many adults use it like a pacifier--both for themselves and for their children.

 

*All of our children were post 8th by pandemic occurence.

I absolutely judge parents who park an iPad or phone in front of a toddlers face when I see it in public (restaurants, parks, airports, etc.).

It’s lazy and damaging and ignorant, IMO, and I’d rather listen to the toddler throw a tantrum (which is normal and necessary in their development) than to have their brains wired by YouTube at such an integral point in their development.

By and large those aren’t parents who also are on Facebook, Instagram, etc. themselves. It’s like digital secondhand smoke.

Edited by BeardIP
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Captainant said:

IMO you're missing the bigger picture if your end course of action is to demonize a particular type of website. The bigger problem that enabled and fuels and allows the micro targeting and doomscrolling, is that it's open season on buying and selling user data.

Haidt's thesis is much broader than just focussing on one particular type of website. It's the broader impact and balance between multiple factors during childhood psychological development. Social media is just one aspect. Independence, free play, and social interactions in the real world is another. An excerpt:

Quote

 

Human childhood and adolescence evolved outdoors, in a physical world full of dangers and opportunities. Its central activities––play, exploration, and intense socializing––were largely unsupervised by adults, allowing children to make their own choices, resolve their own conflicts, and take care of one another. Shared adventures and shared adversity bound young people together into strong friendship clusters within which they mastered the social dynamics of small groups, which prepared them to master bigger challenges and larger groups later on.

And then we changed childhood.

....

But overprotection is only part of the story. The transition away from a more independent childhood was facilitated by steady improvements in digital technology, which made it easier and more inviting for young people to spend a lot more time at home, indoors, and alone in their rooms. Eventually, tech companies got access to children 24/7. They developed exciting virtual activities, engineered for “engagement,” that are nothing like the real-world experiences young brains evolved to expect.

 

Here is a non-paywalled link to the Atlantic piece: https://archive.is/ZBCJl 

Baba alluded to Haidt's proposed four point solution:

* No smartphones before high school

* No social media before 16

* Phone-free schools

* More independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world

Edited by Anastasis
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14 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

* More independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world

So, so, so much this.

As parents looking back on our parenting, we're happy with -- and we see the dividends of -- our choices to let our kids do a good bit of that.  Of course, we're also self-critical: we could and should have done better.  But letting your kids exercise independence, make their own mistakes, learn shit, and figure it out, is key to making them into healthy functioning adults.  From letting the boy grab a .22 and wander off and explore (on foot, on an ATV) our friends' ranch when we're there to hunt/do work was great.  Him doing a gap year on his own in Berlin (after COVID and his own illness set his natural social development back) was....maybe the best parenting decision we've ever made.  He did a lot of growing up and developing: he had to navigate his own food, laundry, getting his full visa (that was all on him, and he had to do it in a second language; he did so well at his appointment that he also helped the Iraqi Kurdish guy with the appointment after his), he learned how to drink and act a fool and what it was like to drink too much ("Dad....I puked all over much of Kreuzburg"), he got in a serious relationship that he wasn't ready for, he ended it awkwardly and learned some shit about how do deal with women and feelings.  The daughter....we could have done better with.  At least on fishing trips, I let her handle her own shit, and didn't hover.  She sorted out her own gear issues, she fought, landed, and unhooked fish on her own.  But she was also the "straight and narrow" academic star, and she followed that path throughout.  That said, she has lived in multiple countries, moving there and handling all logistics pretty much on her own.  She can solve some pretty adult problems, but she is still learning to adult.  We helped her with her high anxiety, and worked to give her tools, but she is just now REALLY figuring out how to be fully responsible.  And watching her do it is killing me.....but the fact that she's doing it thousands of miles away helps.  I CAN'T hover.  She is going to feel stress, and fail, and succeed, on her own.  Which she has to do.  She MUST do.

Do little things to show them that they CAN do things independently.  Shit, the boy was 15 when we went to CDMX.  Our last night there in Condesa, he heard the oaxacan tamales cart go by, and said "man, I really want one again."  I said "well, there are pesos on the table, you speak enough spanish to order, and you can find him.  Pay attention to your surroundings, and go for it."  So he went out into the city on his own, at night, and wandered a few blocks until he found the bike.  He was proud as shit when he came back in with his tamales.  A really little thing, but I remember the decision, and how pleased he was to have navigated a foreign city, in a foreign language, at night, and got his business done.

So, we got it far from perfect.  But geez, we see some other families we know that are much more helicoptery.  Not granting kids much independence at all.  And I really think that college is going to be a shock to the system for those kids.

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I’ve worked in a world renowned children’s hospital for almost a decade. The most ill-behaved, disrespectful, and emotionally/mentally stunted children I have ever seen in my life are the ones that have to have a screen in front of them at all times. It spans all races/religions/income brackets.

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5 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Pfft big deal, who hasn’t 

I'm more annoyed by the fact that he had a super cute Swedish gal who had fallen head over heels for him, and he ditched her because "it was just too much."  Number of cute Swedish girls old Brisket has had the opportunity to reject in his lifetime: 0.0.  Dumb little shit.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

I’ve worked in a world renowned children’s hospital for almost a decade. The most ill-behaved, disrespectful, and emotionally/mentally stunted children I have ever seen in my life are the ones that have to have a screen in front of them at all times. It spans all races/religions/income brackets.

You are correct it does span across all races/religions/income brackets in that you will find this abhorrent behavior in all groupings.

Unfortunately, like everything else that is healthiest (and hard to do) for kids, the highest tally frequency of this behavior is found in the poorest demographics. I don't think it's all willful parental malpractice, rather ignorance.

You have to know better to do better, after all.

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On 3/22/2024 at 10:05 PM, hayden_horn said:

i am gonna argue that it's lack of mental health care, specifically for vets and their families, that have the boomers (specifically but it goes all the way back to world war 1) all fucked in the head thinking that seeking mental health care somehow makes people soft.  that's how the cruelty became the point. 

Johnny Sack, more than anyone on Surly, could really benefit from some therapy.  I suspect that's why he's so hostile to it. 

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I think about that scene sometimes in "Mad Men" when Don was talking to his kids the night of the Kennedy Shooting.  And I think about when I was watching TV with my father when Reagan was shot by Hinkley.  I remember the state funerals of Ford and Nixon and Reagan and H.W. Bush like they were yesterday.  My cousin was a pall-bearer for Nancy Reagan's casket /csb.  I remember that moment when Bob Dole struggled to stand to salute H.W. Bush's casket.  It was a way that we, as children, onboarded the concept of death.  Among other means.  We all came together as a nation, as a people, to bury our heroes.  And then we lost pets, and grandparents, and aunts and uncles.  And we had no frame of online reference.  We merely gathered around the glowing Sony Trinitron.  There really is such a thing as "good" screen time.  Cronkite said as much.  

And this Autumn, we will all gather around the television set (albeit a flat and tall one /dangerfield).  And something once again...something wonderful will happen.  And our children will no longer have to live in so much fear.  

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42 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Unfortunately, like everything else that is healthiest (and hard to do) for kids, the highest tally frequency of this behavior is found in the poorest demographics.

This is completely opposite to what I have observed over the last several years.

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7 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

This is completely opposite to what I have observed over the last several years.

I believe you.

Which I guess just highlights the original problem-- we live in the same country but we really don't, depending on where you live and socialize. How does the saying go, "We live in the same building but on different floors."

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Posted (edited)

Top 10 list of crises causing this, in order:

1. Resilience: this skews worse as you analyze younger generations.  This goes hand in hand with #2, and paired together is what I think is driving the woefully misguided anti-woke crowd.  A culture of victimhood has allowed people to justify wallowing in failure or defeat.  We need to teach young people that anything can be overcome, because it’s true, and even if it’s not true, believing that lie generally leads to a happier life than not.

2. Accountability: this is a major problem for all generations.  I am not sure the cause, but our society does an epically poor job of holding people accountable for their behavior.  I think a lot of people’s unhappiness is bred from an external locus of control mindset and a lack of accountability for their own happiness.  We need to teach young people that they are in control of and responsible for their own happiness.  To be accountable is to be empowered.

3. Empathy: I trace a lot of this back to the Internet and social media, but there seems to be a tremendous lack of empathy in our current society.  People seem to be more able than ever to block out how their actions affect others.  This spans all generations.

4. Dignity of work: Working has gotten a really bad rap.  Our society glorifies people who inherited wealth more than people who work hard and aren’t wealthy.  Workers are viewed as suckers.  That has to change.  This problems spans all current generations including the Boomers.

5. Disinformation: Media bias is a gigantic fucking problem.  Society went from less than a handful of sources of information, all of whom presented basically the same information, to infinite, contradictory sources.  Being unable to trust new information breeds a lot of problems that flow into this happiness metric.

6. Healthcare:  our healthcare system is utterly fucked and almost no one has quality, affordable, convenient healthcare.  This is a tough nut to crack.

7. Education: our education system is utterly fucked and middle and lower class young people are getting the major shaft.  Unlike healthcare, I believe money can easily address this problem.  A much lower student/teacher ratio and a much higher salary for teachers would go a LONG way to fixing this problem.

8. Climate: it’s hot as fuck all the time and that makes people unhappy.  Also, thinking about societal collapse in the next 100 years because their grandparents and parents weren’t willing to make even moderate sacrifices has gotta be depressing as fuck for young people.

9. Inequality: I think there’s a big gap and this issue is far less impactful than the ones above it on the list, but wealth consolidation is a major problem.  Access to capital is probably the biggest determinate in someone’s ability to achieve in our society.  It far outweighs other factors like talent and fortitude.  That has always been a problem in our crony capitalist society over the last 200 years, but it’s worse now than ever.

10. Demographic: I think demographic trends are already causing problems, but this is more a forward-looking issue than something that is causing current unhappiness, and there’s actually a chance this could end up being a good thing if technology and migration are properly managed.  But there’s a worldwide shortage of young people relative to old people, and that’s a problem.

Mass shootings didn’t make this list, even though I believe they cause young people a lot of unhappiness.  And even though I believe guns should be much harder to obtain and that our national priorities are totally out of whack on that issue, I do think if you solved #2, #3, and #7 on my list, you’d see a dramatic reduction in problems related to guns.

Edited by Snake Diggity
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8 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

Top 10 list of crises causing this, in order:

1. Resilience: this skews worse as you analyze younger generations.  This goes hand in hand with #2, and paired together is what I think is driving the woefully misguided anti-woke crowd.  A culture of victimhood has allowed people to justify wallowing in failure or defeat.  We need to teach young people that anything can be overcome, because it’s true, and even if it’s not true, believing that lie generally leads to a happier life than not.

2. Accountability: this is a major problem for all generations.  I am not sure the cause, but our society does an epically poor job of holding people accountable for their behavior.  I think a lot of people’s unhappiness is bred from an external locus of control mindset and a lack of accountability for their own happiness.  We need to teach young people that they are in control of and responsible for their own happiness.  To be accountable is to be empowered.

3. Empathy: I trace a lot of this back to the Internet and social media, but there seems to be a tremendous lack of empathy in our current society.  People seem to be more able than ever to block out how their actions affect others.  This spans all generations.

4. Dignity of work: Working has gotten a really bad rap.  Our society glorifies people who inherited wealth more than people who work hard and aren’t wealthy.  Workers are viewed as suckers.  That has to change.  This problems spans all current generations including the Boomers.

5. Disinformation: Media bias is a gigantic fucking problem.  Society went from less than a handful of sources of information, all of whom presented basically the same information, to infinite, contradictory sources.  Being unable to trust new information breeds a lot of problems that flow into this happiness metric.

6. Healthcare:  our healthcare system is utterly fucked and almost no one has quality, affordable, convenient healthcare.  This is a tough nut to crack.

7. Education: our education system is utterly fucked and middle and lower class young people are getting the major shaft.  Unlike healthcare, I believe money can easily address this problem.  A much lower student/teacher ratio and a much higher salary for teachers would go a LONG way to fixing this problem.

8. Climate: it’s hot as fuck all the time and that makes people unhappy.  Also, thinking about societal collapse in the next 100 years because their grandparents and parents weren’t willing to make even moderate sacrifices has gotta be depressing as fuck for young people.

9. Inequality: I think there’s a big gap and this issue is far less impactful than the ones above it on the list, but wealth consolidation is a major problem.  Access to capital is probably the biggest determinate in someone’s ability to achieve in our society.  It far outweighs other factors like talent and fortitude.  That has always been a problem in our crony capitalist society over the last 200 years, but it’s worse now than ever.

10. Demographic: I think demographic trends are already causing problems, but this is more a forward-looking issue than something that is causing current unhappiness, and there’s actually a chance this could end up being a good thing if technology and migration are properly managed.  But there’s a worldwide shortage of young people relative to old people, and that’s a problem.

Mass shootings didn’t make this list, even though I believe they cause young people a lot of unhappiness.  And even though I believe guns should be much harder to obtain and that our national priorities are totally out of whack on that issue, I do think if you solved #2, #3, and #7 on my list, you’d see a dramatic reduction in problems related to guns.

Don't know if your order is exactly correct....but it's close enough.  Great list.

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1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

Top 10 list of crises causing this, in order:

1. Resilience: this skews worse as you analyze younger generations.  This goes hand in hand with #2, and paired together is what I think is driving the woefully misguided anti-woke crowd.  A culture of victimhood has allowed people to justify wallowing in failure or defeat.  We need to teach young people that anything can be overcome, because it’s true, and even if it’s not true, believing that lie generally leads to a happier life than not.

2. Accountability: this is a major problem for all generations.  I am not sure the cause, but our society does an epically poor job of holding people accountable for their behavior.  I think a lot of people’s unhappiness is bred from an external locus of control mindset and a lack of accountability for their own happiness.  We need to teach young people that they are in control of and responsible for their own happiness.  To be accountable is to be empowered.

3. Empathy: I trace a lot of this back to the Internet and social media, but there seems to be a tremendous lack of empathy in our current society.  People seem to be more able than ever to block out how their actions affect others.  This spans all generations.

4. Dignity of work: Working has gotten a really bad rap.  Our society glorifies people who inherited wealth more than people who work hard and aren’t wealthy.  Workers are viewed as suckers.  That has to change.  This problems spans all current generations including the Boomers.

5. Disinformation: Media bias is a gigantic fucking problem.  Society went from less than a handful of sources of information, all of whom presented basically the same information, to infinite, contradictory sources.  Being unable to trust new information breeds a lot of problems that flow into this happiness metric.

6. Healthcare:  our healthcare system is utterly fucked and almost no one has quality, affordable, convenient healthcare.  This is a tough nut to crack.

7. Education: our education system is utterly fucked and middle and lower class young people are getting the major shaft.  Unlike healthcare, I believe money can easily address this problem.  A much lower student/teacher ratio and a much higher salary for teachers would go a LONG way to fixing this problem.

8. Climate: it’s hot as fuck all the time and that makes people unhappy.  Also, thinking about societal collapse in the next 100 years because their grandparents and parents weren’t willing to make even moderate sacrifices has gotta be depressing as fuck for young people.

9. Inequality: I think there’s a big gap and this issue is far less impactful than the ones above it on the list, but wealth consolidation is a major problem.  Access to capital is probably the biggest determinate in someone’s ability to achieve in our society.  It far outweighs other factors like talent and fortitude.  That has always been a problem in our crony capitalist society over the last 200 years, but it’s worse now than ever.

10. Demographic: I think demographic trends are already causing problems, but this is more a forward-looking issue than something that is causing current unhappiness, and there’s actually a chance this could end up being a good thing if technology and migration are properly managed.  But there’s a worldwide shortage of young people relative to old people, and that’s a problem.

Mass shootings didn’t make this list, even though I believe they cause young people a lot of unhappiness.  And even though I believe guns should be much harder to obtain and that our national priorities are totally out of whack on that issue, I do think if you solved #2, #3, and #7 on my list, you’d see a dramatic reduction in problems related to guns.

Phones

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6 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Haidt's thesis is much broader than just focussing on one particular type of website. It's the broader impact and balance between multiple factors during childhood psychological development. Social media is just one aspect. Independence, free play, and social interactions in the real world is another. An excerpt:

Here is a non-paywalled link to the Atlantic piece: https://archive.is/ZBCJl 

Baba alluded to Haidt's proposed four point solution:

* No smartphones before high school

* No social media before 16

* Phone-free schools

* More independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world

Haidt says in this video: the world tells you "you are a balloon full of feelings and the world is full of pins". His ideas overlap 99% with Shrier, however, Shrier is much much hotter. Both are extremely evidence based.

Haidt also says in the video, about a dangerous playground: "This is good, because kids can get hurt. And that's crucial. Because if you can get hurt, then you learn how not to get hurt."

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1 hour ago, usmc0331horn said:

Phones

Yeah, smartphones, social media, and the internet can be pegged as major source of most of the issues I listed.  

Narratives propagated online breed a lack of resilience, empathy, and accountability.  

The culture of excess and celebrity diminish the dignity of work.

The unregulated Internet breeds disinformation and misinformation.

And the 24/7 in-your-face nature of smartphones increases awareness of issues (climate change, war, inequality, etc.) and breeds a sense of powerlessness to address them.

In terms of what I think might be achievable ways to address these issues, I think an anti-smartphone/socialmedia campaign and legal accountability similar to what happened with cigarettes and smoking would be good.  We also need to poor a fucking fuckton more money into public education.

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5 hours ago, RollLeft said:

So of you motherfuckers really like to hear yourselves talk, fuck me.  

It’s not talking; it’s typing.  You’re not listening, you’re reading.  Imagine what you and the next generation could be capable of with just a few lessons in vocabulary.  

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52 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Haidt also says in the video, about a dangerous playground: "This is good, because kids can get hurt. And that's crucial. Because if you can get hurt, then you learn how not to get hurt."

Happy Excuse Me GIF

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1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

Haidt says in this video: the world tells you "you are a balloon full of feelings and the world is full of pins". His ideas overlap 99% with Shrier, however, Shrier is much much hotter. Both are extremely evidence based.

Haidt also says in the video, about a dangerous playground: "This is good, because kids can get hurt. And that's crucial. Because if you can get hurt, then you learn how not to get hurt."

I guess my problem with his framing is that he's also requiring you to accept that climate change, social inequality, and the breakdown of our democracy are things not all that worth getting upset about. His core thesis is "if people wouldn't look at their phones they wouldn't be upset with existential climate change".

It boils down all the gripes and genuine issues into an incredibly boomerific view of "it must be those newfangled cell phones that are the problem!"

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30 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I guess my problem with his framing is that he's also requiring you to accept that climate change, social inequality, and the breakdown of our democracy are things not all that worth getting upset about. His core thesis is "if people wouldn't look at their phones they wouldn't be upset with existential climate change".

It boils down all the gripes and genuine issues into an incredibly boomerific view of "it must be those newfangled cell phones that are the problem!"

Yep.  I like Haidt, I do - I have The Righteous Mind on my bookshelf, read it a few years ago.  But my quibble with him is similar: he diminishes things that are actually a big fucking deal.  These aren't abstract things, they are things that have real-world implications and impacts, and actually affect people's lives.  Lots of people's lives.

Now, the fact that we are more AWARE of many of these things surely does affect overall mood.  But the counter to that is the cop-out take of "ignorance is bliss."  Sure, if I don't know there's an iceberg dead ahead, I enjoy dinner and dancing.  But if I DO know, that's right...I don't enjoy the dinner and dancing.  But I DO have a chance to go to the helm and try to get the captain to steer AWAY from the iceberg, saving a shitload of us a frosty death in the North Atlantic.  All in all, even though it's more stressful beforehand, I prefer the second option.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

Haidt says in this video: the world tells you "you are a balloon full of feelings and the world is full of pins". His ideas overlap 99% with Shrier, however, Shrier is much much hotter. Both are extremely evidence based.

Haidt also says in the video, about a dangerous playground: "This is good, because kids can get hurt. And that's crucial. Because if you can get hurt, then you learn how not to get hurt."

Those are your two most important take aways from the hour plus long lecture?

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If there is a criticism to make here, I think that his distinctions based on sex are somewhat superficial. Boys are very vulnerable to social comparison, in different ways of course than girls, but in some ways very similar. He moves past this too quickly. 

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