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SmokeyBear1861

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34 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Makes you think about who else is quiet, yeah? For example, the current sitting President of the United States of America: Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr.

You know, the same guy who heaped praise on Jose Andres and WCK for feeding Ukrainian refugees, and has notably not done so for his work in Gaza.

I'm a big fan of a lot of stuff Biden has done, and that's why his unacceptably poor handling of this situation infuriates me and is going to hurt him (and not in an insignificant way) in the presidential election. Your head is firmly in the sand if you don't understand that. On this topic, he has been Coward in Chief and needs to do better NOW, not later.

His name and our name are on this slaughter. I like Biden, but I won't be blind.

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2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The Israeli far right has never seemed remotely interested in rescuing any of the hostages. I don't think they care about protecting Israelis, I think they're fascists that want to exterminate everyone else. 

They see them as sacrificial lambs for Lebensraum.

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It should be concerning to everyone that a country with deliverable nuclear weapons seems to be actively trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world at a record pace, while led by a PM that needs to stay in power to avoid prison.

I feel like nobody is talking about this and it's been in the back of my mind for a while.

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1 hour ago, mdmost said:

Yep but you know what happens the second he criticizes Israel. He's in a no-win situation. But yes, he needs to speak out about this and use it to force Israel into a ceasefire. 

at minimum, he needs to at least not continually do shit like this:

Quote

 

 The Biden administration is close to approving the sale of as many as 50 American-made F-15 fighter jets to Israel, in a deal expected to be worth more than $18 billion, according to three people familiar with the matter.

The transaction, which would amount to the largest US foreign military sale to Israel since the country went to war with Hamas on October 7, comes as the administration is also expected to notify Congress soon of a large new sale of precision-guided munitions kits to Israel, the people said.

The new sales of some of the US’ most sophisticated weaponry underscore the extent to which the US continues to support Israel militarily, even as Biden administration officials criticize Israel’s operations in Gaza, which have killed more than 32,000 Palestinians since October, according to the Gaza ministry of health.

The sale is likely to be hotly debated in Congress, particularly by members of the president’s own party. US weapons sales to Israel have come under intense scrutiny in recent months and Democratic lawmakers have called for restricting military aid to Israeli until it allows more humanitarian aid into Gaza and does more to protect civilians there.

Since Hamas’ attack on Israel in October, which killed over 1,200 Israelis, the US has made more than 100 foreign military sales to Israel. Most of those have fallen under the specific dollar amount that requires a notification to Congress, an official familiar with the matter previously told CNN.

But an $18 billion F-15 sale is large enough that it requires congressional notification, and the administration informally notified the House Foreign Affairs and Senate Foreign Relations committees of the F-15 sale in late January, according to two of the people familiar with the matter.

The informal notification gives lawmakers and congressional staff time to review the details and ask questions before the State Department sends a formal notification to all lawmakers.

The top Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Sen. James Risch, has already given his approval on the sale, according to one of the people familiar with the matter. A congressional aide told CNN that House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Michael McCaul has also approved the transaction to proceed to formal congressional notification.

But Sen. Ben Cardin, the Democratic chairman of the committee, as well as the Democratic ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs committee, Rep. Greg Meeks, can still hold up the sale if they raise objections.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/01/politics/biden-administration-f15-fighter-jets-israel

 

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12 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Came here to post about this. 
 

This has to move the needle doesn’t it?  

 

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

As an initial vocal supporter of Israel, I've avoided this thread for a while... but the truth can be ignored no longer. 

As much as I want to support the idea of Israel, and I stand by my belief that there are/were many bad actors in the "ceasefire" movement capitalizing on anti-semitism, this shit cannot go on.

What Israel is doing is inconceivable.  Most "normie Jew" support for Israel centers around the idea of a safe place for Jews, yet I cannot think of anything that endangers the future international prospects of safe Jews than the continued escalation of this conflict.

Fuck Bibi.

 

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

I still want to support the idea of Israel as well, it just doesn't have to be this way. It CAN'T be this way any longer.

What you said in bold is spot on. Israel's actions are only going to make things worse in the long run for everyone which is what I've been trying to say all along.

e: Also, you were always right about some bad actors using the ceasefire movement to further anti-semitism. It's just an unfortunate reality that we have to try and mitigate as much as possible.

This is the kind of thing that can have outsized impact on public perception, in turn driving a shift in public opinion on the conflict and the political calculations for elected officials.

Is that fair? No. Israel has been brazenly committing atrocities for months. Sad as it is, the death of seven innocents is a mild Tuesday morning in this conflict; but because of their nationalities and the organization the victims were affiliated with there is a spotlight on the horrific, indiscriminate nature of the violence.

I don't know that it will happen. Isarel is such a thorny issue here and most people that do have an opinion are very much dug in. In general I disapprove of Biden's handling of the conflict, to put it diplomatically, but I'm conscious of the fact that he is walking a political tight rope and the consequences of stumbling on that are catastrophic.

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3 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

The transaction, which would amount to the largest US foreign military sale to Israel since the country went to war with Hamas on October 7, comes as the administration is also expected to notify Congress soon of a large new sale of precision-guided munitions kits to Israel, the people said.

You got to think that the outcry at this point should be enough to pressure the admin to stop these transfers, particularly of munitions. Right?

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4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

It should be concerning to everyone that a country with deliverable nuclear weapons seems to be actively trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world at a record pace, while led by a PM that needs to stay in power to avoid prison.

I feel like nobody is talking about this and it's been in the back of my mind for a while.

Sounds all too familiar.

Netanyahu has never been a good guy in all of this and has always been an obstacle to peace, but he hasn't been a madman. Now, he's tied his fate to the most extreme elements of Israeli society to stay in power and keep out of jail. Those far-right ultra-Orthodox groups rank right up there with the worst of the worst. They're true fanatical theocratic fascists who'd like nothing more than to genocide their way into claiming everything from the river to the sea. Some even claim lands east of the Jordan River.

Trump's out of power now, and we certainly got lucky he was so unprepared to lead last time. I don't think he was really an ideologue--just a greedy bully who knew how to manipulate the base by picking on Latinos and Muslims.  If that motherfucker gets reelected, which he desperately needs to stay out of jail, he'll have the full backing of our own worst of the worst.

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6 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Sounds all too familiar.

Netanyahu has never been a good guy in all of this and has always been an obstacle to peace, but he hasn't been a madman. Now, he's tied his fate to the most extreme elements of Israeli society to stay in power and keep out of jail. Those far-right ultra-Orthodox groups rank right up there with the worst of the worst. They're true fanatical theocratic fascists who'd like nothing more than to genocide their way into claiming everything from the river to the sea. Some even claim lands east of the Jordan River.

Trump's out of power now, and we certainly got lucky he was so unprepared to lead last time. I don't think he was really an ideologue--just a greedy bully who knew how to manipulate the base by picking on Latinos and Muslims.  If that motherfucker gets reelected, which he desperately needs to stay out of jail, he'll have the full backing of our own worst of the worst.

Yep.  You connected the two.  Bibi is Trump if Trump was smarter.  Which makes Bibi that much more awful.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is an astoundingly uninformed take. 

It's not exactly accurate, but Israel regularly terrorizes and kills members of foreign press, and literally just legislated a major press organization out of the country. Not fascist at all!

Edited by Brian Fantana
dp
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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

They will both fall and Russia will remain far below Israel.  100 percent, that’s how these ranking work and I do have first hand knowledge. 

Russia and Occupied Palestine are pretty close in the rankings in 2023.

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49 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Russia and Occupied Palestine are pretty close in the rankings in 2023.

And? Did you read the country report and why Palestine ended up there in 2023? It’s nearly entirely due to Hamas and WB authorities’ restrictions and media manipulation even as Israel’s actions are mentioned as a contributing factor. There is a methodology to how they put these together. 
 

You said something that is not at all correct and the evidence you are citing doesn’t back you up, just move on. It’s bad for Israel to clamp down in its own right and it doesn’t have to be WoRsE tHaN RuSsIA. 

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5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s bad for Israel to clamp down in its own right and it doesn’t have to be WoRsE tHaN RuSsIA. 

Honestly though how many times has Russia authorized targeted military strikes on the family of journalists?

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Just now, Satchel said:

The only positive that is likely to result from the carnage is Bibi will lose his job.

Not gonna happen.

It's going to get worse.  Much worse.

That's all things do in this timeline: get worse.

Have you not been paying attention?

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Headline: Biden is really angry with all the bombings.

Checks notes: He just approved sale of bombs and planes to Israel.

“Son, I’m really angry that you are smoking weed. Here is a brick of herb and a new bong. Don’t smoke that shit anymore!”

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25 minutes ago, Fastbreak said:

Headline: Biden is really angry with all the bombings.

Checks notes: He just approved sale of bombs and planes to Israel.

“Son, I’m really angry that you are smoking weed. Here is a brick of herb and a new bong. Don’t smoke that shit anymore!”

It's the AIPAC.

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59 minutes ago, Fastbreak said:

Headline: Biden is really angry with all the bombings.

Checks notes: He just approved sale of bombs and planes to Israel.

“Son, I’m really angry that you are smoking weed. Here is a brick of herb and a new bong. Don’t smoke that shit anymore!”

Yeah but in this instance, we're the dad getting angry at our kid smoking weed, asking him where he got it and where did he learn to do it?

KdOnOW.gif

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

The Western world simply outsources its guilt to Palestinians, especially Germany.

If the Israelis succeed in either destroying or displacing the Palestinians then following up by settling the area themselve, it would be akin to the Germans building condos on the sites of concentration camps.

The Dachau Deluxe Duplexes! 

Edited by RomaVicta
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3 hours ago, mdmost said:

Yeah but in this instance, we're the dad getting angry at our kid smoking weed, asking him where he got it and where did he learn to do it?

KdOnOW.gif

Every once in a while there is the perfect situation response and gif. This is one of those times. 

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The fallout continues from the Israeli attack on the World Central Kitchen martyrs in Gaza. Cyprus ships carrying 250 tons on relief rations to Gaza have retreated mid trip because the safety of their workers cannot be guaranteed. Given how Bibi has propped up Hamas for years in order to give himself a convenient foil, it’s not surprising that he’s engaging in ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

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4 minutes ago, Satchel said:

The fallout continues from the Israeli attack on the World Central Kitchen martyrs in Gaza. Cyprus ships carrying 250 tons on relief rations to Gaza have retreated mid trip because the safety of their workers cannot be guaranteed. Given how Bibi has propped up Hamas for years in order to give himself a convenient foil, it’s not surprising that he’s engaging in ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

I know you know this, but it's still worth a reminder that it's been a slow-burn ethnic cleansing campaign for decades. Hamas's actions simply provided a catalyst/excuse to put the process into overdrive.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

What should it be? The west is not booting boots in there. I would go with Jordanian, Turks, North Africans. NATO aligned, but not NATO forces. Who else?

Given the events of the last few days, can we agree on "Not the IDF" as a starting point?

Edited by Anastasis
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9 hours ago, Satchel said:

The fallout continues from the Israeli attack on the World Central Kitchen martyrs in Gaza. Cyprus ships carrying 250 tons on relief rations to Gaza have retreated mid trip because the safety of their workers cannot be guaranteed.

Mission accomplished. 

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I have no idea if it was intentional, but I can see it being so to determine how far they can really go without losing support. No western ally leader can go against Israel and still win elections, especially the presidency of the United States. That's just how it is, unfortunately. Biden has called for a ceasefire without any teeth and that's about as far as he can go without losing tons of votes from the "I stand by Israel" crowd which still has many adherents on the left, primarily "centrist" democrats which are still a huge part of the party. It feels like I saw the story on multiple outlets initially and not much since. It's still the political reality of how things stand. I really wish young progressives would continue their advocacy without saying they won't vote for Biden. I have no doubt that Biden is pretty centrist on Israel, but even if he agreed with the young progressives, he can't push too hard without letting trump take the white house, in which case he'd probably just give Israel nukes to wipe Gaza off the map. 

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38 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I have no idea if it was intentional, but I can see it being so to determine how far they can really go without losing support. No western ally leader can go against Israel and still win elections, especially the presidency of the United States. That's just how it is, unfortunately. Biden has called for a ceasefire without any teeth and that's about as far as he can go without losing tons of votes from the "I stand by Israel" crowd which still has many adherents on the left, primarily "centrist" democrats which are still a huge part of the party. It feels like I saw the story on multiple outlets initially and not much since. It's still the political reality of how things stand. I really wish young progressives would continue their advocacy without saying they won't vote for Biden. I have no doubt that Biden is pretty centrist on Israel, but even if he agreed with the young progressives, he can't push too hard without letting trump take the white house, in which case he'd probably just give Israel nukes to wipe Gaza off the map. 

Lol Joe Biden is not centrist on Israel, not even close. Literally look at any part of his political history. He has been one of Israel's most staunch political allies his entire career. It's probably by far his most right wing and most longstanding position.

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1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Lol Joe Biden is not centrist on Israel, not even close. Literally look at any part of his political history. He has been one of Israel's most staunch political allies his entire career. It's probably by far his most right wing and most longstanding position.

He said on the record that Israel should agree to a ceasefire. That's about as centrist as it gets today. Yes, his history is far more staunch, same with several other issues on which he's softened (except pot for some dumb reason). 

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When you look at what actually happened, it's not really even possible for it to have just been a tragic mistake. Their own excuses at this point are "look man, we've completely lost control of our field commanders and they do whatever they want." 

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29 minutes ago, 'stache said:

He said on the record that Israel should agree to a ceasefire. That's about as centrist as it gets today. Yes, his history is far more staunch, same with several other issues on which he's softened (except pot for some dumb reason). 

He said there should be a ceasefire. Right before we send 18b more weapons of war to Israel. That's called talking out of both sides of your mouth.

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3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

He said there should be a ceasefire. Right before we send 18b more weapons of war to Israel. That's called talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I hate it, but if he blocks it, Trump becomes president, I truly believe that to be true with where the people are on Israel.

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15 minutes ago, Satchel said:

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

+1

The evolution of this discussion is pretty fascinating. I basically got called an antisemitic conspiracy theorist for linking this article back in October.

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1 hour ago, 'stache said:

I hate it, but if he blocks it, Trump becomes president, I truly believe that to be true with where the people are on Israel.

This is the truth.  Politically, Biden is playing this lose-lose situation correctly, as unhappy as it makes the tiktokers.

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1 hour ago, 'stache said:

I hate it, but if he blocks it, Trump becomes president, I truly believe that to be true with where the people are on Israel.

Blocks what?  A ceasefire, or blocks arms transfers?

Where people are on Israel is evolving quickly.

image.thumb.png.035f536286aae48a7078000434916600.png

 

image.thumb.png.85f6087be7d6cd6708c9fdd6b135945f.png

 

Like many issues, U.S. partisans find themselves on opposing sides. Most Republicans, though fewer than in the fall, support Israel's actions, while the vast majority of Democrats are opposed. Independents’ opinions are now much closer to those of Democrats.

Although Americans rate Biden's handling of the conflict poorly, his overall job approval rating is no lower now than before the conflict began. The issue does not register highly when Americans are asked to name the most important problem facing the U.S. Nor does it rank highly when Americans rate each of several international issues as critical threats to U.S. vital interests. It could hurt the president by dampening turnout among would-be Biden voters who care deeply about the issue and are upset with his handling of the situation.

 

And more directly to the point of aid...

image.thumb.png.b10505a80e54e5655dc9c1af75e75bec.png

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4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Blocks what?  A ceasefire, or blocks arms transfers?

Where people are on Israel is evolving quickly.

image.thumb.png.035f536286aae48a7078000434916600.png

 

image.thumb.png.85f6087be7d6cd6708c9fdd6b135945f.png

 

Like many issues, U.S. partisans find themselves on opposing sides. Most Republicans, though fewer than in the fall, support Israel's actions, while the vast majority of Democrats are opposed. Independents’ opinions are now much closer to those of Democrats.

Although Americans rate Biden's handling of the conflict poorly, his overall job approval rating is no lower now than before the conflict began. The issue does not register highly when Americans are asked to name the most important problem facing the U.S. Nor does it rank highly when Americans rate each of several international issues as critical threats to U.S. vital interests. It could hurt the president by dampening turnout among would-be Biden voters who care deeply about the issue and are upset with his handling of the situation.

 

And more directly to the point of aid...

image.thumb.png.b10505a80e54e5655dc9c1af75e75bec.png

Public opinion is probably even less supportive of Israel. The disconnect between politicians and constituents on this is due to AIPAC.

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Blocks what?  A ceasefire, or blocks arms transfers?

Where people are on Israel is evolving quickly.

image.thumb.png.035f536286aae48a7078000434916600.png

 

image.thumb.png.85f6087be7d6cd6708c9fdd6b135945f.png

 

Like many issues, U.S. partisans find themselves on opposing sides. Most Republicans, though fewer than in the fall, support Israel's actions, while the vast majority of Democrats are opposed. Independents’ opinions are now much closer to those of Democrats.

Although Americans rate Biden's handling of the conflict poorly, his overall job approval rating is no lower now than before the conflict began. The issue does not register highly when Americans are asked to name the most important problem facing the U.S. Nor does it rank highly when Americans rate each of several international issues as critical threats to U.S. vital interests. It could hurt the president by dampening turnout among would-be Biden voters who care deeply about the issue and are upset with his handling of the situation.

 

And more directly to the point of aid...

image.thumb.png.b10505a80e54e5655dc9c1af75e75bec.png

Both. I hope that’s true but I’m not willing to stake the future of this country on these numbers. It’s far more important that a fascist buffoon is defeated in November, whatever it takes.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 'stache said:

Both. I hope that’s true but I’m not willing to stake the future of this country on these numbers. It’s far more important that a fascist buffoon is defeated in November, whatever it takes.

Arming ethnic cleansing operations because afraid of Trump is certainly a take.

1 in 5 democrats and nearly 1 in 4 independents "much less likely to support" a candidate that continues military aid. If these numbers are accurate, your calculus seems backwards. Continuing with the status quo appears more likely to put Biden at risk with his own base and independents. If you think that Trump is going to wedge him on this issue and flip Democrats by taking on a pro-genocide position, I just don't see it. And Biden is not picking up those committed Trump voters either way. Seems the greater risk is eroding his own base, particularly the progressive wing of it and independents. Buy hey, maybe Michigan is disposable.   

Edited by Anastasis
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8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Arming ethnic cleansing operations because afraid of Trump is certainly a take.

1 in 5 democrats and nearly 1 in 4 independents "much less likely to support" a candidate that continues military aid. If these numbers are accurate, your calculus seems backwards. Continuing with the status quo appears more likely to put Biden at risk with his own base and independents. If you think that Trump is going to wedge him on this issue and flip Democrats by taking on a pro-genocide position, I just don't see it. And Biden is not picking up those committed Trump voters either way. Seems the greater risk is eroding his own base, particularly the progressive wing of it and independents. Buy hey, maybe Michigan is disposable.   

He's historically pretty good at reading the political winds, but on this issue he's having to tread carefully. Are any of those lost voters recoverable? People whose brothers and mothers and children have been killed or starved. Will they "come back" to Biden? If that is even possible, Biden is still figuring out how to accomplish that with minimal AIPAC blowback.

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