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18 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

We send $4B annually to Jordan? Does AJPAC exist? I don't think Jordan has been running an open-air prison, either.

We send a shit-ton of money to Jordan. Until 2022 when Ukraine passed everyone, Jordan was 2nd or 3rd on the list. And they’re getting more. 
 

https://www.newarab.com/news/us-signs-historic-10-billion-aid-package-jordan?amp

 

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33546.pdf

 

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3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

We send a shit-ton of money to Jordan. Until 2022 when Ukraine passed everyone, Jordan was 2nd or 3rd on the list. And they’re getting more. 
 

https://www.newarab.com/news/us-signs-historic-10-billion-aid-package-jordan?amp

 

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33546.pdf

 

$10B over 7 years is much less than $4B per year.

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1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

Oh come on, the the USA is not a "host" country, and the Palestinians living in the USA (and other countries) are not refugees.  I am referring to the Palestinians, who remain refugees, including those in Jordan, Lebanon, and other "host" countries, who desire they remain perpetual refugees.

We should invite them here.

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

We should invite them here.

You are being glib.  We already have lots of Palestinian immigrants and I am more than OK with more.  In the context of a comprehensive settlement, I would be fine with a much larger number.  And, I expect it will cause Surly hysteria, but in the context of a comprehensive settlement two State settlement, I expect Israel would accept return of a some number of refugees as well.

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1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

You are being glib.  We already have lots of Palestinian immigrants and I am more than OK with more.  In the context of a comprehensive settlement, I would be fine with a much larger number.  And, I expect it will cause Surly hysteria, but in the context of a comprehensive settlement two State settlement, I expect Israel would accept return of a some number of refugees as well.

I agree with this.

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3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

amazing what happens when you aren't occupying someone else's territory.

Funny how no one wants to engage on the fact that Jordan occupies Palestinian territory at least as much as Israel does.  Just what superior right does the Hashemite Kingdom have to Palestine?

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1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

Funny how no one wants to engage on the fact that Jordan occupies Palestinian territory at least as much as Israel does.  Just what superior right does the Hashemite Kingdom have to Palestine?

Jordan didn't slaughter a bunch of them, raze their cities and villages, and displace hundreds of thousands of them would be my first guess. Like half their population has Palestinian roots.

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3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

What a cringe, debate pervert, bad faith question.

I guess we're back to this old game: Do Palestinians have the right to not be murdered and have their homes stolen in the West Bank?

Bullshit

He said, and I quote

Quote

Nobody would be concerned with Israel if it were to leave Palestinians and its neighbors alone.

Quote

Show me a point in time where Israel hasn't been displacing Palestinians

5 Arab nations attacked Israel the moment it was created.  So he either believes the creation of Israel is invalid because it displaced Palestinians, or he is wrong.  I gave him an out yet he confirmed the former in his next post. 

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2 hours ago, troph said:

Dude you know Jewish people claim it at their land of origin. This shit goes back to the founding of the Abrahamic religions - which is as much of the problem as the Brits fetish for drawing lines on maps.

I think you pretty much have to believe that Judeo-Christian mythology is fact in order to argue that the Jews have a right to the land of Palestine as their ancestral home. That land hadn’t been majority Jewish in well over a thousand years. I think it’s reasonable to say that after you haven’t been living somewhere for more than a thousand years, you’ve given up the right to call it your land. If you try to take it back, you shouldn’t be surprised if the people who’ve been calling it their home for centuries don’t take too kindly to being replaced by outsiders, especially when deception is used as a tactic to accomplish that end. Say whatever you want but those people got screwed and have every right to be pissed. There will never be a two state solution because Israel will never offer the Palestinians a fair deal. So there will never be peace.

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3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Jordan didn't slaughter a bunch of them, raze their cities and villages, and displace hundreds of thousands of them would be my first guess. Like half their population has Palestinian roots.

I hate to be disagreeable*, but while all of this is certainly true, Jordan can do a shit load more to help the Palestinians in the WB. And Egypt and Lebanon and others as well.

 

*syke

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7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Bullshit

He said, and I quote

5 Arab nations attacked Israel the moment it was created.  So he either believes the creation of Israel is invalid because it displaced Palestinians, or he is wrong.  I gave him an out yet he confirmed the former in his next post. 

That comment is in the context of the contemporary world, not the world of 75 years ago. Again, bad faith.

If Israel, today (ideally much earlier, before this terror attack took place), stopped slaughtering people and taking their homes in the West Bank, and if Gaza stopped being an open air prison, they absolutely would have close to no pushback from the world at large.

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I hate to be disagreeable*, but while all of this is certainly true, Jordan can do a shit load more to help the Palestinians in the WB. And Egypt and Lebanon and others as well.

 

*syke

No disagreements.  I'm just saying there might be a reason Palestinians view them quite a bit more favorably than Israel.

e: view not few

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3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

5 Arab nations attacked Israel the moment it was created.  So he either believes the creation of Israel is invalid because it displaced Palestinians, or he is wrong.  I gave him an out yet he confirmed the former in his next post. 

Did you learn about all this from PragerU? You're conveniently omitting the Nakba and other key factors.

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3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Jordan didn't slaughter a bunch of them, raze their cities and villages, and displace hundreds of thousands of them would be my first guess. Like half their population has Palestinian roots.

They are second class non-citizens, and overwhelmingly believe Jordan is stolen land.  the Kingdom persists through military/police power, funded by the USA.  Yet, they are ignored in the Palestinian rights debate.  The response that Israel is a greater oppressor is weak sauce.   

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1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

That comment is in the context of the contemporary world, not the world of 75 years ago. Again, bad faith.

If Israel, today (ideally much earlier, before this terror attack took place), stopped slaughtering people and taking their homes in the West Bank, and if Gaza stopped being an open air prison, they absolutely would have close to no pushback from the world at large.

Not bad faith at all...he used the fucking word EVER.   That kinda takes the statutes of limitations argument out of the equation.

And again, history continues to prove the bolded part wrong.  The Arab world at large falls into the "creation of Israel was illegal" camp.

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Just now, DixonHur said:

The Arab world at large falls into the "creation of Israel was illegal" camp.

Israel has been engaged in an illegal occupation for decades. But see, international rules based order or some such. And some people wonder why nobody takes our shit seriously. 

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11 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I think you pretty much have to believe that Judeo-Christian mythology is fact in order to argue that the Jews have a right to the land of Palestine as their ancestral home. That land hadn’t been majority Jewish in well over a thousand years. I think it’s reasonable to say that after you haven’t been living somewhere for more than a thousand years, you’ve given up the right to call it your land. If you try to take it back, you shouldn’t be surprised if the people who’ve been calling it their home for centuries don’t take too kindly to being replaced by outsiders, especially when deception is used as a tactic to accomplish that end. Say whatever you want but those people got screwed and have every right to be pissed. There will never be a two state solution because Israel will never offer the Palestinians a fair deal. So there will never be peace.

I’m not fucking arguing it, I said they claim it. Do you read my posts on this  thread or do you just want to fucking argue? 

and most of the Arab world bases their view of Israel and the Jews in particular through the lens of their religious text.  What about rhat? 

What I think is complete horseshit is when folks quote me and don’t read carefully or don’t read the rest of my posts. 

I never said the Palestinians weren’t screwed or didn’t have claims to the land. 

you aren’t the only one do to it but I’m tired of the fucking hyenas so you’re going to be the last.

so kindly fuck off. I’m out. 

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5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Did you learn about all this from PragerU? You're conveniently omitting the Nakba and other key factors.

Um, how else do you create a Jewish nation on Arab land?

Listen, I'm also in the "creation of Israel was the 2nd or 3rd worst mistake in the 20th century" club. 

But it does exist and has for a long time, so it's time the Arab world got used to it and move on.

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2 hours ago, Jatrain said:

If Hamas was gone tomorrow, what would Gaza look like?

Hard to tell depending who took over, but hopefully there’d be fewer Palestinians killed at hospitals by Palestinian rockets. 
 

One thing that’s wild about this hospital thing is that the rocket was designed and launched with the express purpose of killing civilians but people got really upset only after it killed the WRONG civilians. 

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20 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Hard to tell depending who took over, but hopefully there’d be fewer Palestinians killed at hospitals by Palestinian rockets. 
 

One thing that’s wild about this hospital thing is that the rocket was designed and launched with the express purpose of killing civilians but people got really upset only after it killed the WRONG civilians. 

The implication being that everyone wanted the Israeli civilians to die, because anti-semitism or something. Like you've claimed over, and over, and over, and over in this thread. And apologized for multiple times. And yet you're still doing it, just trying to mask it harder or something.

Of course, if you thought Palestinians were humans, you'd actually give a shit about all of them Israel has objectively murdered over the years, but alas...

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33 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Um, how else do you create a Jewish nation on Arab land?

Listen, I'm also in the "creation of Israel was the 2nd or 3rd worst mistake in the 20th century" club. 

But it does exist and has for a long time, so it's time the Arab world got used to it and move on.

Yeah I mean, I guess it would be easier to just let them kill the rest of the Palestinians in the West Bank so we could be done with it and you didn't have to read mean things on the internet about the settler terrorism going on there.

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22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Hard to tell depending who took over, but hopefully there’d be fewer Palestinians killed at hospitals by Palestinian rockets. 
 

One thing that’s wild about this hospital thing is that the rocket was designed and launched with the express purpose of killing civilians but people got really upset only after it killed the WRONG civilians. 

Actually, we have an example:  the West Bank.  No Hamas in control there, just the Palestinian Authority, which denounces terrorism and recognizes the right of Israel to exist.  
 

How does Israel treat the Palestinians under their control there?

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9 hours ago, chainsaw said:

If "exist" means displacing people from their ancestral homes, or committing genocide, then no, there is no right to do that.

Um.... are you an American (North, Central, or South included)... cause um.....

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8 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

The implication being that everyone wanted the Israeli civilians to die, because anti-semitism or something. Like you've claimed over, and over, and over, and over in this thread. And apologized for multiple times. And yet you're still doing it, just trying to mask it harder or something.

Of course, if you thought Palestinians were humans, you'd actually give a shit about all of them Israel has objectively murdered over the years, but alas...

The implication being that the rocket did exactly what it was designed and launched to do (kill civilians), just not the ones they wanted.  And that blatant and repeated— hundreds of times a day— attempts to do war crimes gets a shrug until the war crime is against themselves.  Because decolonizing or some shit. 

 

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14 hours ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:


Not sure if you’re aware but Basically every country in the region has a level 3 or level 4 travel alert from the US state department all saying the same thing for traveling Americans : US has little control and can’t save you, draft a will, beware of terrorism, kidnapping, death.

Circa 2010 I happened to be in Saudi Arabia doing some project management consulting work for a refinery just as the Arab Spring started blooming.  Tanks were rolling about 30 minutes down the highway to the bridge to Bahrain and everyone was on edge.  I was on the road at 4am every morning to get to the refinery and the road had police checkpoints that were always an adventure to go through (always different people working them - some rather bigoted against Americans).  One morning, at 4am, I'm the only soul around at the checkpoint and one of the policemen there started rambling at me in Arabic (of which I understood absolutely nothing).  I gave him a blank stare and he came around to the passenger side of the car, opened the door and got in the car,  He motioned for me to start driving.  I started driving and the dude just kind of relaxes in the passenger seat perking up occasionally to direct me when to turn left or right.  I had no fucking idea what the fuck was happening.  Eventually we get to another police checkpoint and he gets out of the car and thanks me for the ride and waves me off to head back.  Motherfucker!

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8 hours ago, Jatrain said:

Actually, we have an example:  the West Bank.  No Hamas in control there, just the Palestinian Authority, which denounces terrorism and recognizes the right of Israel to exist.  
 

How does Israel treat the Palestinians under their control there?

I heard a podcast recently where the speaker noted that Abbas hasn’t had an election in 18 years, and that’s a good thing, because Hamas would win if they did. Is that not right?

Jews are a liberal people, but a Jewish state is a very illiberal idea, so there is a structural instability (Muslim populations tend to be illiberal, so Muslim states don’t have the same tension). 
  
The issue is: two states vs one state. The world has brokered two-state solutions, Israel has agreed to two-state solutions, and the Palestinians have consistently rejected two-state solutions. 
 
If you view it as a single state, the Palestinians are an ejected and oppressed people that are victims until allowed free unfettered access to all of Israel. This would be the end of the Jewish state of Israel, and the beginning of the Muslim state of Palestine. 
 
If you view the area as two states- Israel is not responsible for Palestinians outside the Israel border. The Palestinians need to govern and care for themselves, and final borders are negotiable. 
 
Until both sides agree on the one-state vs two-state issue, there can be no resolution. By withdrawing from Gaza almost 20 years ago, Israel tried to force acceptance of the two-state idea but the Palestinians refuse to accept it. 

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6 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Circa 2010 I happened to be in Saudi Arabia doing some project management consulting work for a refinery just as the Arab Spring started blooming.  Tanks were rolling about 30 minutes down the highway to the bridge to Bahrain and everyone was on edge.  I was on the road at 4am every morning to get to the refinery and the road had police checkpoints that were always an adventure to go through (always different people working them - some rather bigoted against Americans).  One morning, at 4am, I'm the only soul around at the checkpoint and one of the policemen there started rambling at me in Arabic (of which I understood absolutely nothing).  I gave him a blank stare and he came around to the passenger side of the car, opened the door and got in the car,  He motioned for me to start driving.  I started driving and the dude just kind of relaxes in the passenger seat perking up occasionally to direct me when to turn left or right.  I had no fucking idea what the fuck was happening.  Eventually we get to another police checkpoint and he gets out of the car and thanks me for the ride and waves me off to head back.  Motherfucker!

Power move. 

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12 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Circa 2010 I happened to be in Saudi Arabia doing some project management consulting work for a refinery just as the Arab Spring started blooming.  Tanks were rolling about 30 minutes down the highway to the bridge to Bahrain and everyone was on edge.  I was on the road at 4am every morning to get to the refinery and the road had police checkpoints that were always an adventure to go through (always different people working them - some rather bigoted against Americans).  One morning, at 4am, I'm the only soul around at the checkpoint and one of the policemen there started rambling at me in Arabic (of which I understood absolutely nothing).  I gave him a blank stare and he came around to the passenger side of the car, opened the door and got in the car,  He motioned for me to start driving.  I started driving and the dude just kind of relaxes in the passenger seat perking up occasionally to direct me when to turn left or right.  I had no fucking idea what the fuck was happening.  Eventually we get to another police checkpoint and he gets out of the car and thanks me for the ride and waves me off to head back.  Motherfucker!

Achievement Hunter Chad GIF by Rooster Teeth

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1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Um.... are you an American (North, Central, or South included)... cause um.....

But, the Trail of Tears ended about 175 years ago.  Don't you know that there is a daily rolling statute of limitations, that is always just long enough to include Israel?

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10 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Um, how else do you create a Jewish nation on Arab land?

Listen, I'm also in the "creation of Israel was the 2nd or 3rd worst mistake in the 20th century" club. 

But it does exist and has for a long time, so it's time the Arab world got used to it and move on.

Israel doesn't seem to be too keen on moving on, either. See: West Bank settlements.

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14 hours ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

 

14 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You mean like there used to be, before it was forcibly taken from them? I can't imagine why they'd hold such a belief, you fucking dumbass.

 

14 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Of course, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an awful thing to do and that Palestinians don't have a right to be angry about a forced, mass displacement from their lands. It's absolutely unreal the amount of arm twisting you have to do to get anyone in the Western world to admit that.

Just upthread, a few posts ago we have some goo-brained moron incredulous about them simply wanting back what was taken from them. The AUDACITY.

 

11 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

it always leads back to “but it’s our land despite all those wars we lost”

 

Bingo.  You start walking down the road with them, and this is where it always ends up.  See each instance of bolded text above (and the one below).  It always comes back to "Israel out of the levant."  And people wonder why it's hard to get Israel to negotiate in good faith?

11 hours ago, chainsaw said:

amazing what happens when you aren't occupying someone else's territory.

 

10 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

That comment is in the context of the contemporary world, not the world of 75 years ago. Again, bad faith.

If Israel, today (ideally much earlier, before this terror attack took place), stopped slaughtering people and taking their homes in the West Bank, and if Gaza stopped being an open air prison, they absolutely would have close to no pushback from the world at large.

No disagreements.  I'm just saying there might be a reason Palestinians view them quite a bit more favorably than Israel.

e: view not few

So, just ignore the 75 years of history where the Palestinians and their allies have pledged consistently, and have conducted full-scale war repeatedly, to push Israel completely off the map.  Israel wasn't pushing settlers into the West Bank and sealing off Gaza BEFORE the Palestinians launched a war of conquest and state-extermination against them.  I love the "hey, if we just omit decades of evidence that they want Israel to cease existence, peace is at hand!"

10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Israel has been engaged in an illegal occupation for decades. But see, international rules based order or some such. And some people wonder why nobody takes our shit seriously. 

An illegal occupation of what?  Gaza and the West Bank?  I understand that my be what YOU are referencing, and that approach provides room for a path forward.  But understand that when the people I quoted in bold say things like that, they mean "an illegal occupation of the Levant, which Israel took from the Palestinian people."  

I support a two-state solution. I support a continuing existence of the state of Israel.  I support an end to Israeli occupation and repression of Gaza and the West Bank.  I support an end to any Israeli settlements in same, as those territories should be the baseline for the future Palestinian state.  But my question is this: do any of you actually think that will work?  Do you think it more likely that A) the Palestinian state is created, and the Palestinian people finally have an internationally recognized homeland supported by a treaty, and go about living their lives as a people who now have a state, or B) the Palestinian state is created, and that state is used as a building ground and launching pad for the ultimate goal, which has not changed and will never change: push Israel into the sea and end the Israeli state?  You have to bet on one.  Which one do you bet on?

I sure as hell don't like that fact that the very thing that I support -- an independent and peaceful Palestinian state, free of Israeli interference, control, and violence -- is practically impossible.  But I can't look at the chess board and see it playing out any other way.  Because the end-game always ends up at the same place: Israel must be gone.

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Seems to me the biggest problem are the militant wings within the Palestinians and the lack of policing of those people by the Palestinians.   They caused issues for Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and everyone else they aligned or dealt with (except Iran).  They murdered a Jordanian leader, conspired to overthrow the King.   The coordinated with Syria in order to attack Jordan.    Lebanon became a shithole after the Palestinian militants arrived, and the Lebanese army was too weak to kick them out, which led to a civil war and multiple foreign powers getting involved (when has Iran actually been a good partner? Will they ever learn?).  Even when a path to statehood was brokered, the militants within the Palestinian community ramped up attacks to thwart the brokered agreement and the leadership showed no compunction or ability to stop it.

Seems to me the Palestinians haven't suffered enough to want peace, they are happy sow discord and happy to live in squalor and cry victim (of the Jordanians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Israelis, etc.).  Until they get their own house in order this cycle will continue.   It doesn't matter which country they have dealings with, the outcome is the same.  

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29 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

 

 

Bingo.  You start walking down the road with them, and this is where it always ends up.  See each instance of bolded text above (and the one below).  It always comes back to "Israel out of the levant."  And people wonder why it's hard to get Israel to negotiate in good faith?

 

So, just ignore the 75 years of history where the Palestinians and their allies have pledged consistently, and have conducted full-scale war repeatedly, to push Israel completely off the map.  Israel wasn't pushing settlers into the West Bank and sealing off Gaza BEFORE the Palestinians launched a war of conquest and state-extermination against them.  I love the "hey, if we just omit decades of evidence that they want Israel to cease existence, peace is at hand!"

An illegal occupation of what?  Gaza and the West Bank?  I understand that my be what YOU are referencing, and that approach provides room for a path forward.  But understand that when the people I quoted in bold say things like that, they mean "an illegal occupation of the Levant, which Israel took from the Palestinian people."  

I support a two-state solution. I support a continuing existence of the state of Israel.  I support an end to Israeli occupation and repression of Gaza and the West Bank.  I support an end to any Israeli settlements in same, as those territories should be the baseline for the future Palestinian state.  But my question is this: do any of you actually think that will work?  Do you think it more likely that A) the Palestinian state is created, and the Palestinian people finally have an internationally recognized homeland supported by a treaty, and go about living their lives as a people who now have a state, or B) the Palestinian state is created, and that state is used as a building ground and launching pad for the ultimate goal, which has not changed and will never change: push Israel into the sea and end the Israeli state?  You have to bet on one.  Which one do you bet on?

I sure as hell don't like that fact that the very thing that I support -- an independent and peaceful Palestinian state, free of Israeli interference, control, and violence -- is practically impossible.  But I can't look at the chess board and see it playing out any other way.  Because the end-game always ends up at the same place: Israel must be gone.

FWIW, I would love a peacefully co-existing two-state solution, so we definitely agree there that it would be ideal for the harmony of the region and the safety of both Israelis and Palestinians.

And no, of course we shouldn't ignore the history here. That's kind of the point. But you know that and are aware just how bloody both sides hands are.

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14 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Seems to me the biggest problem are the militant wings within the Palestinians and the lack of policing of those people by the Palestinians.   They caused issues for Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and everyone else they aligned or dealt with (except Iran).  They murdered a Jordanian leader, conspired to overthrow the King.   The coordinated with Syria in order to attack Jordan.    Lebanon became a shithole after the Palestinian militants arrived, and the Lebanese army was too weak to kick them out, which led to a civil war and multiple foreign powers getting involved (when has Iran actually been a good partner? Will they ever learn?).  Even when a path to statehood was brokered, the militants within the Palestinian community ramped up attacks to thwart the brokered agreement and the leadership showed no compunction or ability to stop it.

Seems to me the Palestinians haven't suffered enough to want peace, they are happy sow discord and happy to live in squalor and cry victim (of the Jordanians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Israelis, etc.).  Until they get their own house in order this cycle will continue.   It doesn't matter which country they have dealings with, the outcome is the same.  

Specifically within Gaza/West Bank they really have no capacity to do that. There is no established state with the power to solve these issues. They haven't been allowed elections in quite a while.

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2 hours ago, Nivek said:

Um.... are you an American (North, Central, or South included)... cause um.....

I'm a proponent of paying substantial reparations to the descendants of slaveholders and displaced indigenous people. As for returning land, I am in favor of it where it is feasible. I haven't looked too closely at the feasibility of returning land to indigenous people, but my understanding is that the feasibility can vary depending on what land we're talking about and other factors. Where returning particular lands to particular people is not feasible, I am in favor of granting different land to them of comparable quality and paying monetary compensation to them to account for the shortcoming.

To me, that is the only morally defensible answer.

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10 hours ago, Jatrain said:

Actually, we have an example:  the West Bank.  No Hamas in control there, just the Palestinian Authority, which denounces terrorism and recognizes the right of Israel to exist.  
 

How does Israel treat the Palestinians under their control there?

Screenshot-2023-10-19-at-11-40-19-The-Ga

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