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El Diablo

Texas And The Death Penalty

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Doesn't have to be Texas discussion only but we executed our first of the year and so that instance was the genesis for the discussion. Guy murdered his wife in 2005. 14 years later we put him to death. Seems to me like if we're going to do this that 14 years is stretching things out a bit too long. I understand though the need to be thorough. Thoughts?

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Texas-prepares-for-first-execution-of-2020-567012501.html

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zero issues with the death penalty, it's the whole process that's beyond broken. 

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It's an abomination and history will look upon it as a barbaric practice by a barbaric civilization. 

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58 minutes ago, Foosters said:

It's an abomination and history will look upon it as a barbaric practice by a barbaric civilization. 

Add it to the list. 

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I've always thought the application of it was flawed. Seems like DAs pursue the death penalty based on whether they can successfully get the penalty not whether they should.

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2 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

14 years is actually relatively quick - right now there are multiple offenders who have been on death row since the 70s.

https://www.tdcj.texas.gov/death_row/dr_offenders_on_dr.html

Good to know. ;) Shouldn't take even 14 years if the prosecutors are doing their job right. "I"'s dotted, "t"'s crossed, clear evidence etc... everything needed to convict and carry out the sentence.

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2 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Good to know. ;) Shouldn't take even 14 years if the prosecutors are doing their job right. "I"'s dotted, "t"'s crossed, clear evidence etc... everything needed to convict and carry out the sentence.

Perhaps but as noted above there are often “issues” with these high profile cases.

 And even when we know an individual is guilty of a heinous offense there are sometimes other “issues” as well.  The case of Andre Thomas is a perfect example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Thomas

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1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I've always thought the application of it was flawed. Seems like DAs pursue the death penalty based on whether they can successfully get the penalty not whether they should.

And how much it will cost the state to pursue 

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

1) some folks surely need killin'.

2) but...once said killin' would no longer be in direct self-defense, I have problems with the state -- and thus by proxy, me -- doing it.

3) I ABSOLUTELY have problems with the state killin' people after the fact, because it's indisputable that we sometimes get it WRONG.  

4) because we probably shouldn't be in the revenge killin' business, and definitely because once you kill someone, you can't take it back if you turned out to be wrong, we should just use life without parole.  Toss 'em in the cage, and never let them out.

Signed,

Someone who supported the death penalty for much of his life, but over time put the first three facts together and reached the conclusion at 4).

Couldn't we say the same with jailing people? 

The state jailing people which means they lose rights. Which only the state can do. Where innocent people could spend thier whole life in prison, and when found innocent some money isn't gonna give that person any real closure as they missed out on life, especially if they're older.

I don't actually have nothing against it, more of a thought experiment. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

1) some folks surely need killin'.

2) but...once said killin' would no longer be in direct self-defense, I have problems with the state -- and thus by proxy, me -- doing it.

3) I ABSOLUTELY have problems with the state killin' people after the fact, because it's indisputable that we sometimes get it WRONG.  

4) because we probably shouldn't be in the revenge killin' business, and definitely because once you kill someone, you can't take it back if you turned out to be wrong, we should just use life without parole.  Toss 'em in the cage, and never let them out.

Signed,

Someone who supported the death penalty for much of his life, but over time put the first three facts together and reached the conclusion at 4).

I've come around too.  Use to be fer it, now I'm agin' it.

Honestly, we should be at a point in society that we are just better than this.  Also, seeing so many people wrongly convicted and put to death, especially black males, is just horrifying. 

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I think part of the issue there is that the burden of proof is to be beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm of the opinion that some juries don't know exactly what that means or are themselves incapable of being reasonable. Jury suitability testing?

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From a purely practical standpoint, it's expensive as hell, it takes too long and just what does anyone get out of it that isn't satisfied by life imprisonment?

Is it worth all that just to get some notion of vengeance?

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3 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

zero issues with the death penalty, it's the whole process that's beyond broken. 

This. 

I have no real moral problem with the state killing people, but just the fact that innocent people have been executed makes it hard to support. 

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10 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Couldn't we say the same with jailing people? 

The state jailing people which means they lose rights. Which only the state can do. Where innocent people could spend thier whole life in prison, and when found innocent some money isn't gonna give that person any real closure as they missed out on life, especially if they're older.

I don't actually have nothing against it, more of a thought experiment. 

 

 

That's certainly why we have the higher burden of proof (beyond reasonable doubt) for criminal cases than in civil cases (preponderance of evidence).  Because what the state is doing here is serious shit, and the burden should be high.

Ultimately, it all balances the risks versus the policy goal.  I'm suggesting -- and I think it's really strong -- that the risk of doing something that is 100% revocable, and cannot even be compensated for (once I kill ya, you're dead) -- is an unacceptable level of risk compared to the risk of wrongfully imprisoning someone, who can at least be freed when we figure it out (I'm pretty sure Michael Morton is glad he just sat in prison for those years, instead of getting the needle).

We know that no system run by men is perfect, and therefore we should build in some mechanism to counter that fallibility.  Freeing a man found to be innocent is that counter.  But we can't resurrect the dead.

4 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

I think part of the issue there is that the burden of proof is to be beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm of the opinion that some juries don't know exactly what that means or are themselves incapable of being reasonable. Jury suitability testing?

Human beings are the X-factor in all of it.  Even if you truly understand the standard, you still have to apply it, and you can't help but carry some measure of your experiences, biases, and prejudices.  Even if you don't realize you have them.  Without going too far down the race road, it's why a jury can look at a damned near identical fact pattern of a young man gone bad, hanging with the wrong crowd, and ending up committing a crime, and if the kid is white, it's a sad story of a kid who lost his way....and if the kid is black, it's the story of a born thug.  Yes, I exaggerate for effect there, but the point is, there are inherent biases and ways of looking at the world that can't help but figure in to things.

And that fallibility and inherent error rate is perhaps the main reason that I think the state shouldn't be doing something that's irrevocable (killing people).

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Racial and class biases in every step of the criminal justice process (conscious or not), the complete irrevocability, the bullshit forensic "science" upon which convictions may be based, the sheer cost, the immorality of taking a life when there is no immediate danger to another's life, all cut in favor of abolishing the death penalty.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, elfenix said:

Racial and class biases in every step of the criminal justice process (conscious or not), the complete irrevocability, the bullshit forensic "science" upon which convictions may be based, the sheer cost, the immorality of taking a life when there is no immediate danger to another's life, all cut in favor of abolishing the death penalty.

 

 

This.  

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most that have the ability to get a gig with bendini lambert and locke do exactly that.  if you are one of the unlucky to need to be assigned counsel, hope that you get one of the ones that do it as their mission, and not the ones that do it because that's the gig they could get.

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January 17th 1977, convicted murderer Gary Gilmore, 36, was shot by a firing squad at Utah State Prison in the first U.S. execution in a decade.

 

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Better for everyone deserving of the death penalty to serve life in prison than for the state to wrongly execute one innocent person. 

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18 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I've come around too.  Use to be fer it, now I'm agin' it.

Honestly, we should be at a point in society that we are just better than this.  Also, seeing so many people wrongly convicted and put to death, especially black males, is just horrifying. 

This is me too.

I will say that I do understand the impulse and the emotional conflict of victims or family victims or crimes where they’ve been robbed of loved ones by extreme sociopathy or psychopathy who want justice by death and the perceived injustice by them still living, in prison. You need some real spiritual maturity, I would think, to be okay.

Edited by Rougarou

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21 hours ago, Foosters said:

It's an abomination and history will look upon it as a barbaric practice by a barbaric civilization. 

History will look back on us, with respect to the death penalty, as a nation of pansies. In this particular case, this guy should have been summarily executed within a week of his sentence, which should have been handed down within a month of the crime absent appeal. Which didn’t happen  

It’s not about revenge killing. It’s about fucking common sense that has several benefits. 

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15 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

History will look back on us, with respect to the death penalty, as a nation of pansies. In this particular case, this guy should have been summarily executed within a week of his sentence, which should have been handed down within a month of the crime absent appeal. Which didn’t happen  

It’s not about revenge killing. It’s about fucking common sense that has several benefits. 

No.

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12 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

History will look back on us, with respect to the death penalty, as a nation of pansies. In this particular case, this guy should have been summarily executed within a week of his sentence, which should have been handed down within a month of the crime absent appeal. Which didn’t happen  

It’s not about revenge killing. It’s about fucking common sense that has several benefits. 

If you're such a tough, non-pansy guy, you should quit whatever oil-related job you have now and become the State's official executioner. If, however, you end up murdering an innocent man in the process, you should be summarily executed (doubly so for also dipping on a plane).

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4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

If you're such a tough, non-pansy guy, you should quit whatever oil-related job you have now and become the State's official executioner. If, however, you end up murdering an innocent man in the process, you should be summarily executed (doubly so for also dipping on a plane).

I don’t have an oil related job. I own some oil properties but have a career in an entirely different industry and would never be an executioner or dipped, period. 

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26 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

History will look back on us, with respect to the death penalty, as a nation of pansies. In this particular case, this guy should have been summarily executed within a week of his sentence, which should have been handed down within a month of the crime absent appeal. Which didn’t happen  

It’s not about revenge killing. It’s about fucking common sense that has several benefits. 

This is wrong.  There are no benefits that the death penalty provides that go beyond what life in prison provides.  There are also extreme costs and risks.  Vengeance is the only reason to use the death penalty.  

And I can tell from the rhetoric in your post that while you claim it's not about revenge killing, for you it's about revenge killing.  

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I don’t have an oil related job. I own some oil properties but have a career in an entirely different industry and would never be an executioner or dipped, period. 

Too much of a pansy to kill people yourself, eh?

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13 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Too much of a pansy to kill people yourself, eh?

Nope. I’ve got another career. 

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27 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

This is wrong.  There are no benefits that the death penalty provides that go beyond what life in prison provides.  There are also extreme costs and risks.  Vengeance is the only reason to use the death penalty.  

And I can tell from the rhetoric in your post that while you claim it's not about revenge killing, for you it's about revenge killing.  

My plan would save hundreds of thousands of dollars per murderer. It’d be a bigger deterrent than a long prison sentence where you’ll likely ultimately get out. It takes a cancer out of society, promptly, with no fanfare and no media circus. 

It’s not about revenge killing. 

Edited by Dr. Beeper

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Nope. I’ve got another career. 

Come on.

Any tough non-pansy such as yourself could find some time to make it a nice side gig. Hell, you'd only need to do it about once a month and think of the rewarding feeling of vengeance in your loins upon each completion.

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3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Come on.

Any tough non-pansy such as yourself could find some time to make it a nice side gig. Hell, you'd only need to do it about once a month and think of the rewarding feeling of vengeance in your loins upon each completion.

I seem to have elicited some emotional response out of you. 

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

My plan would save cost hundreds of thousands of dollars more per person who may or may not actually be a murderer. As research data shows, it’d would not be a bigger deterrent thant a long prison sentence where you’ll likely ultimately get out. It takes a cancer human out of society, takes yearpromptly, with no fanfare and no is a media circus. 

It’s not about revenge killing. 

Fixed it for accuracy.  

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Just now, Longhornfan1024 said:

Fixed it for accuracy.  

Yeah you did not read what I wrote in my initial post. From the day this guy murders his wife, he’d be dead within 45 days. So, what you “fixed for accuracy” was wrong, with the exception of “than” versus that, which I had already fixed. 

Reading comprehension.  You need it. 

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I seem to have elicited some emotional response out of you. 

Yeah, it's called elation in ridicule aka mocking.

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14 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Yeah you did not read what I wrote in my initial post. From the day this guy murders his wife, he’d be dead within 45 days. So, what you “fixed for accuracy” was wrong, with the exception of “than” versus that, which I had already fixed. 

Reading comprehension.  You need it. 

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and didn't think you'd actually be stupid enough to believe that we would ever be at a point where an execution takes place 45 days after an alleged murder.  

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19 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

From a purely practical standpoint, it's expensive as hell, it takes too long and just what does anyone get out of it that isn't satisfied by life imprisonment?

Is it worth all that just to get some notion of vengeance?

This is really what it comes down to in the end.

It's been offered by DP proponents that the DP acts as a deterrent to murder. It doesn't, and there's precisely zero evidence to corroborate the claim. I do remember a certain poster in the HF/SB days offering "studies" that "proved" the deterrent effect, but it turned out that the "studies" were done by a handful of business professors (all of whom knew each other) and proposed preposterous math equations, which themselves were debunked by a barrage of people who knew what they were talking about. There's no deterrent effect except inside of the minds of those desperately wanting to validate it.

It's been offered by DP proponents that it's less costly than life in prison. It isn't.

It's been offered by DP proponents that it gives the families of the victims a sense of closure and satisfaction. I'd refer such people to the very simple comment that I just quoted. As @TwiceHornmentioned, it really does come down to a very primitive impulse of bloodlust. It's the only argument that comes down a purely subjective set of criteria, thus impossible to factually refute. Of course the problem is that DP proponents, by and large, will never admit to possessing a bloodlust, hence they make up stories about "deterrence effect" and "cost benefit analysis" that plainly do not support them upon critical examination.

Bottom line, if bloodlust is all one has, one hasn't enough.

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1 hour ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

This is wrong.  There are no benefits that the death penalty provides that go beyond what life in prison provides.  There are also extreme costs and risks.  Vengeance is the only reason to use the death penalty.  

And I can tell from the rhetoric in your post that while you claim it's not about revenge killing, for you it's about revenge killing.  

Oh there's no doubt. I liked the invocation of "common sense" as if common sense in any way remotely supported his position.

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32 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and didn't think you'd actually be stupid enough to believe that we would ever be at a point where an execution takes place 45 days after an alleged murder.  

I’m not that stupid. I’m simply saying what should happen in cases such as this. 

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14 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Oh there's no doubt. I liked the invocation of "common sense" as if common sense in any way remotely supported his position.

Guy kills his wife. Everyone knows he did it. Found guilty. No appeal. Yeah, what I propose is common sense. 

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Guy kills his wife. Everyone knows he did it. Found guilty. No appeal. Yeah, what I propose is common sense. 

You don't even know what common sense is. You're thumping your chest, not proposing common sense.

"Everyone knows he did it"

How? And how often do you really think murder cases are that black-and-white, open-and-shut easy?

Edited by hpslugga

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32 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

This is really what it comes down to in the end.

It's been offered by DP proponents that the DP acts as a deterrent to murder. It doesn't, and there's precisely zero evidence to corroborate the claim. I do remember a certain poster in the HF/SB days offering "studies" that "proved" the deterrent effect, but it turned out that the "studies" were done by a handful of business professors (all of whom knew each other) and proposed preposterous math equations, which themselves were debunked by a barrage of people who knew what they were talking about. There's no deterrent effect except inside of the minds of those desperately wanting to validate it.

It's been offered by DP proponents that it's less costly than life in prison. It isn't.

It's been offered by DP proponents that it gives the families of the victims a sense of closure and satisfaction. I'd refer such people to the very simple comment that I just quoted. As @TwiceHornmentioned, it really does come down to a very primitive impulse of bloodlust. It's the only argument that comes down a purely subjective set of criteria, thus impossible to factually refute. Of course the problem is that DP proponents, by and large, will never admit to possessing a bloodlust, hence they make up stories about "deterrence effect" and "cost benefit analysis" that plainly do not support them upon critical examination.

Bottom line, if bloodlust is all one has, one hasn't enough.

Having studied it or looked at it for a while, bloodlust basically underlies our whole criminal justice system.  At least the sentencing end of it.

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13 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

You don't even know what common sense is. You're thumping your chest, not proposing common sense.

"Everyone knows he did it"

How? And how often do you really think murder cases are that black-and-white, open-and-shut easy?

I’m not thumping my chest. I think more murder cases are NOT clear-cut than are. I’d limit what I propose to those that are clear-cut. 

Edited by Dr. Beeper

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1 minute ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I’m not thumping my chest. I think more murder cases are NOT clear-cut than are. I’d limit what I propose to those that are clear-cut. 

Yes, you are thumping your chest because you know full well that's not how the law works. More specifically, you know full well why that's not how the law works. This is all an exercise of Make Believe and Pretend.

Edited by hpslugga

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I’m not thumping my chest. I think more murder cases are NOT clear-cut than are. I’d limit what I propose to those that are clear-cut. 

There’s no benefit to your proposal at all from a societal standpoint. What do we gain from putting people to death other than vengeance? Society gains nothing that can’t be achieved through life in prison.

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21 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I've come around too.  Use to be fer it, now I'm agin' it.

I feel the exact same way.

Capital punishment serves as no deterrent, so really, what's the point.

For any punishment to be a deterrent, it must be administered swiftly, and with certainty.....this stupid death penalty certainly IS NOT administered swiftly, and with certainty. 

Life in prison is good enough.....and at least still gives the wrongly convicted a chance....... 

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30 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I’m not that stupid. I’m simply saying what should happen in cases such as this. 

You're saying that's what should happen in cases that don't exist.  You're also failing to explain why that should happen.  "It's common sense" is a bullshit, non-substantive, explanation.  "It has a greater deterrent effect" is a bullshit, disproved explanation.  "It's cheaper than life in prison" is a bullshit, disproved explanation if we're discussing real life and is a bullshit, unproven explanation if we're discussing your fantasy world where murder convictions are found within 45 days of the alleged murder and a defendant facing the death penalty chooses not to appeal.   

Edited by Longhornfan1024

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