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Rich people don't pay much in taxes (now in CR) - ProPublica


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ProPulica - Secret IRS Files report

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

Buffet is the king of tax efficiency - paying 0.10% on his wealth gains 2014-2018 (well no shit - its unrealized gains)
Bezos had the largest wealth increase - and payed less than 1% on his wealth gains

ProPublica uses the term "True Tax Rate", but taxes haven't been paid on unrealized gains; that said they say there will be follow up article(s) going into how the fat cats avoid taxes, exploit loopholes and escape federal scrutiny.

 

Keep the CR comments to a minimum, so this doesn't get move to that shithole 😉

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Posted (edited)

so lemme get this straight.

 

the folks that make so much money that they can hire a full time accounting team whose entire job it is to reduce the tax burdon of said rich folks....  dont pay that much in taxes????

 

color me shocked. 

 

and for the oblivious...  yeah thats 100% pure sarcasm. 

Edited by AUS-97HORN
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9 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Bezos had the largest wealth increase - and payed less than 1% on his wealth gains

Not only that but in one particular year his income was offset by investment losses such that his income was essentially zero.  So he took the refundable tax child credit of a few grand.  LOFL.  

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13 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

ProPulica - Secret IRS Files report

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

Buffet is the king of tax efficiency - paying 0.10% on his wealth gains 2014-2018 (well no shit - its unrealized gains)
Bezos had the largest wealth increase - and payed less than 1% on his wealth gains

ProPublica uses the term "True Tax Rate", but taxes haven't been paid on unrealized gains; that said they say there will be follow up article(s) going into how the fat cats avoid taxes, exploit loopholes and escape federal scrutiny

Keep the CR comments to a minimum, so this doesn't get move to that shithole 😉

 *Buffett

And he himself has been outspoken in the past about how it’s unfair that he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary. 

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2 minutes ago, hornbri said:

That article is pretty misleading, we don't have wealth tax we have a income tax.

Using unrealized gains to then try and illustrate a low tax rate is not really fair.

I live in Austin, do I have to count all the unrealized gains in my house value this year and pay taxes on that?

Yep.  We tax income in this country, not wealth.  

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

How did they get all these returns?

Quote

WASHINGTON—Federal authorities are investigating the release of wealthy Americans’ tax information, Internal Revenue Service Commissioner Charles Rettig said Tuesday.

ProPublica, a nonprofit news organization, published details about the reported income and tax payments of some of the richest Americans, including Amazon.com Inc. Chief Executive Officer Jeff Bezos and Berkshire Hathaway Inc. CEO Warren Buffett.

Taxpayer information is confidential, and there are potential criminal penalties for IRS employees or others who release such information. Mr. Rettig told lawmakers that there were internal and external investigations beginning, with potential prosecutions to follow.

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nothing new, if you sorta are interested in this stuff.  i think most lay people have only a faint notion of how it works: sheltering cap gains, borrowing against assets, etc

same old story, recycled for a different day. 

 

no, i dont think its "fair", but what the fuck are we gonna do about it - aint neither party done shit for decades.

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19 minutes ago, hornbri said:

That article is pretty misleading, we don't have wealth tax we have a income tax.

Using unrealized gains to then try and illustrate a low tax rate is not really fair.

I live in Austin, do I have to count all the unrealized gains in my house value this year and pay taxes on that?

Yep.  And here are the effective rates they paid on income

Buffett - 19% (probably almost entirely cap gains and dividends)

Bezos - 23%

Bloomberg - 3% (this one should be investigated further - not sure how you can report $10 billion in income and only pay $292 million in tax)

Musk - 30%

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Yep.  And here are the effective rates they paid on income

Buffett - 19% (probably almost entirely cap gains and dividends)

Bezos - 23%

Bloomberg - 3% (this one should be investigated further - not sure how you can report $10 billion in income and only pay $292 million in tax)

Musk - 30%

In the best year I ever had my effective income tax rate was around 38 percent and it’s because I’m not a zillionaire. That’s pretty rage inducing. But I’m not surprised at all. This one is a truly both sides issue.

Edited by JimmyJames
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1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

In the best year I ever had my effective income tax rate was around 38 percent and it’s because I’m not a zillionaire. That’s pretty rage inducing. But I’m not surprised at all. This one is a truly both sides issue.

Yeah, not surprising at all.  Buffett has always bothered me on this issue.  He laments his low rate, but he doesn't pay extra (that is always an option).  He only pays exactly what he owes.

 

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5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Yeah, not surprising at all.  Buffett has always bothered me on this issue.  He laments his low rate, but he doesn't pay extra (that is always an option).  He only pays exactly what he owes.

 

That’s a silly argument. 

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Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

That’s a silly argument. 

I'm just saying if it really bothered him, he would pay more.  Clearly he's just giving it lip service.

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49 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Personally, I pay as much as I can. 

There is no way that I would ever ask questions to inform myself about tax ramifications, ask for tax advice, plan for tax savings, pay an accountant and incorporate legal tax strategies based on current tax code and tax law.

I like taxes. 

Will you let me pay yours?

That sounds like something a poor person would say

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3 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

I'm just saying if it really bothered him, he would pay more.  Clearly he's just giving it lip service.

Or maybe it would be better to donate that money to political candidates who might make changes to our tax code to make it more fair to everyone. Ever consider that?

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51 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Personally, I pay as much as I can. 

There is no way that I would ever ask questions to inform myself about tax ramifications, ask for tax advice, plan for tax savings, pay an accountant and incorporate legal tax strategies based on current tax code and tax law.

I like taxes. 

Will you let me pay yours?

I have a loan you could finish off for me. ;)

 

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3 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Or maybe it would be better to donate that money to political candidates who might make changes to our tax code to make it more fair to everyone. Ever consider that?

That clearly hasn't worked so far, has it?

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6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

That clearly hasn't worked so far, has it?

The Clinton era tax rates weren’t hurting anyone and we had a balanced budget. I was in favor of giving that another chance. Fuck Jim Comey.

The battle continues. 

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Us sub-millionaires pay anywhere in the range 30-40% when federal, state (CA), real estate and sales taxes are added, not including Medicare/Social Security payments. The biggest hit I see is from vesting of RSUs that are part of the overall compensation and paying ordinary income taxes on them.

Since dividends are taxed at a lower rate, do these rich guys create their own "fund" consisting of their RSUs that are traded by the fund and it pays "dividend" to the owner thereby hiding the ordinary tax due when these people have millions of dollars worth of RSUs vesting? Does this happen?

 

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6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The Clinton era tax rates weren’t hurting anyone and we had a balanced budget. I was in favor of giving that another chance. Fuck Jim Comey.

The battle continues. 

I would happily pay more in taxes for a balanced budget.  But we'll never see that.  Deficit spending is our new normal.

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21 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

I would happily pay more in taxes for a balanced budget.  But we'll never see that.  Deficit spending is our new normal.

You can give as much as you want to the government. 

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1 hour ago, bschoolprof said:

This will be interesting to follow. Either it’s an insider leak, or the IRS was hacked. Either way they’re poor stewards of citizen’s private financial information. 

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5 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Ah, yes, the patriot argument.  

I'm not saying that he should, I think it's more patriotic to not pay in taxes but instead give directly to charity. 

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1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Or maybe it would be better to donate that money to political candidates who might make changes to our tax code to make it more fair to everyone. Ever consider that?

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57 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

I assume you pay your property taxes every year?

This is a discussion about federal taxes, not state taxes. Try to keep up.

The answer is no, I don't pay income tax to the federal government for my net worth increase associated with my house appreciating in value. This is also why Jeff Bezos doesn't have to pay taxes when the Amazon stock he owned before the year started and still owned at the end of the year became more valuable during the year. The same people saying it's unfair that he "gained wealth" that he didn't pay taxes on would be pissed off about getting an income tax bill from the federal government because their local housing market got hot.

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That is fair. But Jeff Bezos has the ability to borrow from his stocks, even the new ones that  "gained wealth" and live on that loan just fine. And you don't pay income tax on that loan. That is the issue with the very rich. They declare income when it advantages them to claim it, not every year on us regular people that can't play that game. That is what sucks.

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Always cracks me up when people think Warren Buffet pretends to be in favor of more progressive taxation systems.  He does...for me and you...not for him.  

If you're ever listening to John Mackey give a speech around Texas...ask him about his conversation with Buffet about taxes at the big-time CEO retreat they were both on in the early 2010's.  

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23 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Always cracks me up when people think Warren Buffet pretends to be in favor of more progressive taxation systems.  He does...for me and you...not for him.  

Probably because he knows the reality.  We can't really move revenue generation meaningfully without hitting the meat of the income distribution. 

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8 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

Lobo, you play lots of inside baseball with your own self. Spill the story or don't even bring it up, dude.

Pipe down Sally, I told his story once before on here.  Was at an AEI/Reason think tank deal a few years ago with John Mackey.  We were bundling money and resources for Gary Johnson (this was early 2016 I think), he goes on to support Rand Paul though.  Already half of you will dismiss this as evil, libertarian anti-tax bullshit and the other half will say it's progressive propaganda.  I say it was a bit of both.  It's at John Mackey's ranch on 290 just past that biker bar before you get to 281 turnoff to Johnson City. 

Anyway, it's a small group of people.  Mackey tells a story about a few years before this (I wanna say sometime between 2011-13).  He's just then developing what will become the book "Conscious Capitalism" and buddying up to CEO's of Container Store and a few other similar rich guys.  SO they have this retreat and John ends up with Warren Buffet talking.  Warren is mentoring him on how to grow Whole Foods (this is years before the Amazon buyout was a possibility).  John had just been through the ringer, again, for daring to take on the progressive retail machine and dig in for shareholder maximization with which he could take better care of his employees. He's offering health insurance, and equity sharing, but they're shitting on him as an evil capitalist.  Warren knows it's a pain for him and that he's developing this new ethos so Warren takes him aside at this retreat. 

Now John doesn't eat meat and he barely drinks, maybe doesn't even drink at all.  But I'm half in the bag while John tells this story.  He says Warren basically asks him, "You're almost among the anointed.  You're gonna get bought out soon and have more money than you know what to do with.  You're a progressive at heart, but your cardinal sin is that you know the only way to accomplish that agenda is through capitalistic growth."  John takes it all in from the Oracle and continues that Warren asks him, "Do you know why the progressives in everything from government to movies to media leave me alone when it comes to my wealth.  Why somehow, my insane net worth is treated as an interesting anomaly and not a result of greed.  Why do you think you're already vilified even though you eat and drink disruptive positive change to our planet and your partners and our food supply?"  John says he was quiet for a moment with Warren, and realized Warren was trying to enlighten him.  Point fingers at the other wealthy people, make them the problem, paint them as the enemy, all other people not paying enough tax are the problem---not me.  John never could get to the point of being like Warren and screaming about other rich people to draw attention from himself but he knew Warren's secret now.  Do precisely what you complain about when it comes to making money and paying taxes...but scream about everybody else and all will be forgiven.  

Obviously Mackey does a better job explaining it, but it's hung with him for ten years and I could see in John's eyes his frustration.  Turn the way grocers treat their suppliers, customers, and partners all on its head for the betterment of all.  Get shit on by customers, the media, the government, and other rich people.  What he forgot to do was turn around after his first $10mm and shit on everybody else.  Buffet wrote the handbook on it and so he is forever protected by the progressive Left and will die a hero to them despite him paying less taxes than Mackey.  

Fuck your false messiah Buffet.  

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1 hour ago, Parliament said:

This is a political post, Wally.  You're better than this.

Politics is theatre.  You don't have to play.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Always cracks me up when people think Warren Buffet pretends to be in favor of more progressive taxation systems.  He does...for me and you...not for him.  

  Folks act like he’s a fucking white knight or the billionaire with a social conscience when he’s talking about paying less in taxes than his secretary (by percentage) and advocating for higher taxes.  Do people think that those higher taxes will apply to him too?  Fuck him.  It’s amazing people fall for his horseshit.  

Edited by Lhorn
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13 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

  Folks act like he’s a fucking white knight or the billionaire with a social conscience when he’s talking about paying less in taxes than his secretary (by percentage) and advocating for higher taxes.  Do people think that those higher taxes will apply to him too?  Fuck him.  It’s amazing people fall for his horseshit.  

I see it as him playing by the rules.   And perhaps, he might not also agree with the rules.  But, all I know is from what I've read on this thread.

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I’m not saying he should or shouldn’t be paying more taxes. I don’t blame people for taking full advantage of legal loop holes available to them. I’m just saying don’t take advantage of those rules, preach about how immoral it is and advocate for higher taxes for those less fortunate than you  knowing those tax hikes won’t affect you.  He’s definitely NOT trying to pay more taxes. 

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