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50 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

Name the coaches who don't recruit players for their scheme

Shouldn't you scheme around who you have when you come into a new job while you work on recruiting your guys for your scheme?  Or, I dunno, scheme for a conference of real athletes and offenses and not G5 chumps? 

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4 hours ago, hookem48 said:

Name the coaches who don't recruit players for their scheme

If that's the case then Texas should be recruiting 3x350LB DL and quick and athletic LBs. They are doing neither.

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3 hours ago, Js1 said:

Shouldn't you scheme around who you have when you come into a new job while you work on recruiting your guys for your scheme?  Or, I dunno, scheme for a conference of real athletes and offenses and not G5 chumps? 

Who the fuck doesn't start implementing their scheme immediately? (it's why they were hired)What do you think a coach is going to do, wait 3 years before they implement their system? Recruiting the fuck out of the top DBs in the country isn't recruiting for the Big 12?  I get it, we all hate what's going on right now and no one hates the 3 man line more than me but you guys are just talking fucking stupid now. 

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Change up the defense. This 3-4 set isn’t working. At least a 4-2-5 would be more effective, efficient and fun to work with. 
Texas doesn't run a 3-4.

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I'm not defending Orlando at all but three down vs four down is a meaningless debate. The four down look would be the same DL that's out there now with Ossai lined up wide as the fourth DL. Whether or not he puts a hand on the ground doesn't matter - 3 DL with Ossai at B backer is functionally the same thing if you utilize him in the mold of a typical three-down rush LB.

The problem is the utilization of Ossai and the pressure that puts on the DBs when you ask them to

1.) Cover B12 receivers without sending your best pass rusher at the QB, and;

2.) Fill the void left in the pass rush by sending multiple DBs, thereby giving the offense a more favorable position in terms of both simple numbers and personnel in coverage.

Ossai should be playing the edge on the vast majority of snaps. A 3-2-6 with Ossai on the edge, Mitchell/Dele at the middle LB, and some extra run support and occasional pressure from the NB and Joker spots could contain the run and be functional against the pass. Orlando makes defense much harder than it should be.

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I'm not defending Orlando at all but three down vs four down is a meaningless debate. The four down look would be the same DL that's out there now with Ossai lined up wide as the fourth DL. Whether or not he puts a hand on the ground doesn't matter - 3 DL with Ossai at B backer is functionally the same thing if you utilize him in the mold of a typical three-down rush LB.

The problem is the utilization of Ossai and the pressure that puts on the DBs when you ask them to

1.) Cover B12 receivers without sending your best pass rusher at the QB, and;

2.) Fill the void left in the pass rush by sending multiple DBs, thereby giving the offense a more favorable position in terms of both simple numbers and personnel in coverage.

Ossai should be playing the edge on the vast majority of snaps. A 3-2-6 with Ossai on the edge, Mitchell/Dele at the middle LB, and some extra run support and occasional pressure from the NB and Joker spots could contain the run and be functional against the pass. Orlando makes defense much harder than it should be.

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I’ve been typing the same comment in surly this entire season. The issue is not 3 man vs 4 man, it’s utilizing a 4 man rush more consistently with Ossai as that fourth person. They can mix in dB or lb blitzes or the occasional fourth man coming from those positions, but if you actually chart the number of plays where they bring the two de’s, the DT and Ossai, it’s a fairly small percentage of snaps. It should be much much higher. If they would just do that more of the time and then mix in exotics, they would be much better.

Why is it important to rush Ossai more often? He has the size to beat OL and get to the QB, along with the other three DL. When you bring LB’s and CB’s as the fourth rushers, you are relying on confusion as the basis for getting to the QB. They aren’t goi g to overpower an OL. Right now, opposing teams just sit back with their five OL and wait for Texas to either rush three, which is a disaster, or rush three with a CB or LB, and they get caught up at the line, or rush too late. This is really elementary stuff and that’s what scares me about Orlando. It’s like he doesn’t get the basics and gets lost in the gadgetry.

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Ossai's not our best pass rusher.  He's the third best as a LB and there's a couple safeties better as well.  This is a bizzare myth that some $995er fabricated out of thin air, and people parrot on this board.  Stop listening to Howe for football insight.

He belongs in coverage because that's what he is actually good at.

Edited by JBJ

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1 hour ago, gmr548 said:

I'm not defending Orlando at all but three down vs four down is a meaningless debate. The four down look would be the same DL that's out there now with Ossai lined up wide as the fourth DL. Whether or not he puts a hand on the ground doesn't matter - 3 DL with Ossai at B backer is functionally the same thing if you utilize him in the mold of a typical three-down rush LB.

The problem is the utilization of Ossai and the pressure that puts on the DBs when you ask them to

1.) Cover B12 receivers without sending your best pass rusher at the QB, and;

2.) Fill the void left in the pass rush by sending multiple DBs, thereby giving the offense a more favorable position in terms of both simple numbers and personnel in coverage.

Ossai should be playing the edge on the vast majority of snaps. A 3-2-6 with Ossai on the edge, Mitchell/Dele at the middle LB, and some extra run support and occasional pressure from the NB and Joker spots could contain the run and be functional against the pass. Orlando makes defense much harder than it should be.

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3 tite is the problem.  3 tite is different than a 3-4 or 3-3 or 3-2.  we don't have the skill to run this 3 tite when teams attack the edge.  adjust.

Edited by dcar00

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Ossai's not our best pass rusher.  He's the third best as a LB and there's a couple safeties better as well.  This is a bizzare myth that some $995er fabricated out of thin air, and people parrot on this board.  Stop listening to Howe for football insight.
He belongs in coverage because that's what he is actually good at.


This is such a bizarre comment I don’t even know where to start. No one said Ossai was our best rusher. Arguing a safety is a better pass rusher than a larger lineman/lb makes no sense. It’s comparing apples to oranges. I’ve never heard Howe ever on any topic. Obviously you have. He is absolutely not best in coverage. He is large and heavy, not small and fast. Your entire take on the situation is 100% wrong.

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3 tite is the problem.  3 tite is different than a 3-4 or 3-3 or 3-2.  we don't have the skill to run this 3 tite when teams attack the edge.  adjust.

Texas has proven it can take away the inside run using three players. That's a W from a schematic standpoint. You should have the numbers to effectively set the edge.

If the back 8(!) can't properly set the edge and contain opponents outside running game, moving one or both of the DEs out to a 5 tech and having them do it just opens you up to getting gashed inside, because the second and third level are not going to play inside runs with any better fundamentals.

Now, the unsound play vs the run is absolutely on the coaches, but it isn't an alignment issue.





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So if it’s not an alignment issue, but a “ fundamental “ issue, who is responsible.?

Going out on a limb here, but 8 games into the season, the fucking $1.7 mil DC , DOHrlando, should shoulder at least part of the blame.Did he watch any of the games or just squint when the D was on the field.

Ridiculous, even without the embarrassingly pathetic national stats which there really isn’t an excuse or rationalization for.

Edited by El Squared

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13 minutes ago, gmr548 said:


Now, the unsound play vs the run is absolutely on the coaches, but it isn't an alignment issue.
 

Go back and watch OU's outside runs in the 2nd half of that game and reassess.  

Edited by bschoolprof

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22 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

He is large and heavy, not small and fast. Your entire take on the situation is 100% wrong.

 

You don't watch him play.  I don't care if he is ten feet tall and developed a vengeful hate for QBs after one killed his parents made him watch as his sister was raped.  He covers way better than he rushes.

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because the second and third level are not going to play inside runs with any better fundamentals.



In reality, this coaching staff probably can’t teach for shit. A real one though? Sure, spread them out a little to make it harder to get to the edge.

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You don't watch him play.  I don't care if he is ten feet tall and developed a vengeful hate for QBs after one killed his parents made him watch as his sister was raped.  He covers way better than he rushes.

 

Well, you do raise a fair question. His rushing of the QB, when he does rush, hasn’t been great. Typically that fourth rusher is a little bigger than Ossai. The BBacker in this defense is by definition a tweener, a little smaller than a typical DE and a little slower than an outside LB. I love Ossai. He was my favorite recruit in his class. Yet, right now he’s a little too slow to hang with receivers in coverage but not quite big enough to deliver a consistent rush. That seems like a personnel usage issue that falls right on Orlando. Where do you put a guy like Ossai but still get consistent QB pressure. Right now we are failing at both coverage and pressure.

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Go back and watch OU's outside runs in the 2nd half of that game and reassess.  

Yeah, poor phrasing. I was speaking to the alignment of the DL specifically.

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So if it’s not an alignment issue, but a “ fundamental “ issue, who is responsible.?
Going out on a limb here, but 8 games into the season, the fucking $1.7 mil DC , DOHrlando, should shoulder at least part of the blame.Did he watch any of the games or just squint when the D was on the field.
Ridiculous, even without the embarrassingly pathetic national stats which there really isn’t an excuse or rationalization for.

Oh I'm not defending him. It's absolutely on the DC. I was just addressing the folks that think a 4DL alignment or even just splitting the existing 3 DL wider is the answer.

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1 hour ago, gmr548 said:


Texas has proven it can take away the inside run using three players. That's a W from a schematic standpoint. You should have the numbers to effectively set the edge.

If the back 8(!) can't properly set the edge and contain opponents outside running game, moving one or both of the DEs out to a 5 tech and having them do it just opens you up to getting gashed inside, because the second and third level are not going to play inside runs with any better fundamentals.

Now, the unsound play vs the run is absolutely on the coaches, but it isn't an alignment issue.





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yes I know.  I'm not sure what your point is as it relates to what I said.

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54 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

 

Well, you do raise a fair question. His rushing of the QB, when he does rush, hasn’t been great. Typically that fourth rusher is a little bigger than Ossai. The BBacker in this defense is by definition a tweener, a little smaller than a typical DE and a little slower than an outside LB. I love Ossai. He was my favorite recruit in his class. Yet, right now he’s a little too slow to hang with receivers in coverage but not quite big enough to deliver a consistent rush. That seems like a personnel usage issue that falls right on Orlando. Where do you put a guy like Ossai but still get consistent QB pressure. Right now we are failing at both coverage and pressure.

He seems comparable to K’Lavon to me.  I’m also pretty sure that Derrick Johnson couldn’t cover CeeDee fucking Lamb.

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He seems comparable to K’Lavon to me.  I’m also pretty sure that Derrick Johnson couldn’t cover CeeDee fucking Lamb.

Derrick Thomas couldn’t cover CeeDee Lamb.

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9 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 

Well, you do raise a fair question. His rushing of the QB, when he does rush, hasn’t been great. Typically that fourth rusher is a little bigger than Ossai. The BBacker in this defense is by definition a tweener, a little smaller than a typical DE and a little slower than an outside LB. I love Ossai. He was my favorite recruit in his class. Yet, right now he’s a little too slow to hang with receivers in coverage but not quite big enough to deliver a consistent rush. That seems like a personnel usage issue that falls right on Orlando. Where do you put a guy like Ossai but still get consistent QB pressure. Right now we are failing at both coverage and pressure.

I'm sure Orlando has tinkered with position of different players to get the best alignments and combinations. (Actually not really certain he has done this) 

Shit like this is done in spring and summer 2adays.

 I ain't seeing it.

 

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9 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

Guys. The scheme is sound.

 

giphy.gif

      Not sound the way Orlando is calling plays...

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 All those injuries to our last line of defense was a season killer. Just let it go 

No, the last line of defense has been a season killer.

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He seems comparable to K’Lavon to me.  I’m also pretty sure that Derrick Johnson couldn’t cover CeeDee fucking Lamb.


This is what has me so confused. All these programs by definition use guys like Ossai and K’Lavon in that BBacker role. Ossai is the perfect guy for that role. Yet I can’t figure out how some defenses are using it effectively but we struggle.

Johnson played MLB in college where the extra size worked to his advantage in plugging the middle. The MLB does get exposed quite as often in coverage either.

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Just now, Dbeasy said:

 


This is what has me so confused. All these programs by definition use guys like Ossai and K’Lavon in that BBacker role. Ossai is the perfect guy for that role. Yet I can’t figure out how some defenses are using it effectively but we struggle.

Johnson played MLB in college where the extra size worked to his advantage in plugging the middle. The MLB does get exposed quite as often in coverage either.

 

DJ played Will not Mike.  And Orlando is a dumbass.  You may be remembering Aaron Harris as the stud Mike.

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14 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

If that's the case then Texas should be recruiting 3x350LB DL and quick and athletic LBs. They are doing neither.

You don't want 3 350LB DL in our scheme.  We've been targeting the right guys to our system. Our ability to actually sign them has been a different story.  You want a big nose and then 2 DEs who ideally are big enough to play the run but also athletic enough to get to the passer. Bama's last 3 1st round DL are Quennin Williams (6'3, 300), Da'Ron Payne (320 lbs) and Jonathan Allen (6'3, 300 lbs).  That's pretty much the ideal 3 down lineman for the 3 tite.  We have Coburn as the clear NT with guys like Sweat and Ojomo behind him. Then we've been recruiting guys like Leal, Collins, Broughton, etc. the last two years at DE. Ojomo has the versatility to play all 3 spots but those are all ideal 3 tite DL that would be stout against the run and rush the passer. 

Orlando's recruiting has been shoddy due to lack of offers, but when he does identify targets, it's been guys like Gary Johnson, Floyd, Gbenda and Tillman who are all great fits for LBs in our scheme.  Identifying the right type of guys to recruit to our scheme has not been the issue.

13 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 


I’ve been typing the same comment in surly this entire season. The issue is not 3 man vs 4 man, it’s utilizing a 4 man rush more consistently with Ossai as that fourth person. They can mix in dB or lb blitzes or the occasional fourth man coming from those positions, but if you actually chart the number of plays where they bring the two de’s, the DT and Ossai, it’s a fairly small percentage of snaps. It should be much much higher. If they would just do that more of the time and then mix in exotics, they would be much better.

Why is it important to rush Ossai more often? He has the size to beat OL and get to the QB, along with the other three DL. When you bring LB’s and CB’s as the fourth rushers, you are relying on confusion as the basis for getting to the QB. They aren’t goi g to overpower an OL. Right now, opposing teams just sit back with their five OL and wait for Texas to either rush three, which is a disaster, or rush three with a CB or LB, and they get caught up at the line, or rush too late. This is really elementary stuff and that’s what scares me about Orlando. It’s like he doesn’t get the basics and gets lost in the gadgetry.

 

We definitely need to correctly use our B-backer more and it would help things, but we don't have the guys ready to play to have a good pass rush no matter what. Utilizing Ossai more would help, but neither he nor anyone else on our defense are great pass rushers, so we'd still have a lot of issues even using a 4 man rush. Orlando did use Ossai more as a rusher against TCU and we still got very little pass rush.  We have no one from the 2015 -17 classes that can be effective as an outside rusher, so while simplifying the defense and bringing 4 more would help, we'd still have quite a bit of trouble.

13 hours ago, JBJ said:

Ossai's not our best pass rusher.  He's the third best as a LB and there's a couple safeties better as well.  This is a bizzare myth that some $995er fabricated out of thin air, and people parrot on this board.  Stop listening to Howe for football insight.

He belongs in coverage because that's what he is actually good at.

This is pretty over the top.  Ossai showed promise as a rusher in 2018. He's not a 10 sack per year guy right now, but he probably is our best rusher by default. He's definitely the best pass rushing LB we have.  Mitchell being a good situational blitzer is not the same as a being a good pass rusher.

The other problem is that Ossai's usage doesn't allow him to grow as a pass rusher. He hasn't been getting the reps all offseason or this season to improve as a rusher. He probably is our best off ball LB right now, but that doesn't mean that's his best usage long-term. 

12 hours ago, dcar00 said:

3 tite is the problem.  3 tite is different than a 3-4 or 3-3 or 3-2.  we don't have the skill to run this 3 tite when teams attack the edge.  adjust.

This isn't true at all. We have the skill to run the 3 tite, and it actually fits our personnel quite well if Orlando was doing a better job with the scheme/coaching.  Our deficiencies on the edge are due to schematic choices by Orlando/poorly coached defenders, not a lack of skill. When healthy, having guys like Ossai and BJ Foster to man the C gaps while safeties like Chris Thompson or Brandon Jones play downhill is pretty much ideal and safety being the strength of our team (again, when healthy) fits the 3 tite well.

12 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

Go back and watch OU's outside runs in the 2nd half of that game and reassess.  

It's still a combo of alignment and coaching. In the two runs you posted from the 4th quarter of the OU game, one was alignment but it was also on a counter play so they got to the weak side with extra men, which OU does to a lot of teams.  The other play was Brandon Jones playing Nickel while the run went straight to him in the C gap. For a reason I still can't figure out at all, he decided to move inside and go after the lead blocker who otherwise would have been taken by the pursuing ILB while Jones is completely unblocked to stop the runner for a minimal gain.  

The alignment does seem to be getting worse lately. The last 2 and a half weeks, Orlando has been aligning us terribly for defending the edge. Against Kansas, they motioned a TE or H-back most plays and we wouldn't even shift our alignment to account a new strong side on the play. His coaching has gotten worse and worse as the year goes on. He's completely lost at this point.

11 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 

Well, you do raise a fair question. His rushing of the QB, when he does rush, hasn’t been great. Typically that fourth rusher is a little bigger than Ossai. The BBacker in this defense is by definition a tweener, a little smaller than a typical DE and a little slower than an outside LB. I love Ossai. He was my favorite recruit in his class. Yet, right now he’s a little too slow to hang with receivers in coverage but not quite big enough to deliver a consistent rush. That seems like a personnel usage issue that falls right on Orlando. Where do you put a guy like Ossai but still get consistent QB pressure. Right now we are failing at both coverage and pressure.

Ossai's 6'4, 245 and he moves plenty well for an OLB.  Von Miller is pretty much a prototypical OLB and he's 6'3 250 right now but he played lighter in college. Size isn't why Ossai isn't delivering a consistent rush. He needs more reps to become a better pass rusher, but he's not getting them. Ossai can be at least solid right now as either a Rover or a B-backer, but instead Orlando's been playing him as a big nickel, which is just unfair to Ossai and doesn't make any sense either. 

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DJ played Will not Mike.  And Orlando is a dumbass.  You may be remembering Aaron Harris as the stud Mike.

 

 

 

 

 

He lined up in both periodically.

 

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200.gif


Ya your right. I’m an idiot. I could have sworn Texas put him inside his first few years at Texas before moving him back outside, because I remember he had that 30 tackle game in high school and I was pissed they stuck him at MLB his freshman year.

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we don't have the skill.  even when we were healthy this year(and last) we were getting torched.  any QB that can run is killing us.  If Orlando can't teach/coach his scheme he needs to be gone yesterday.  its up to herman to figure it out.  my prediction is if he keeps orlando this will end badly. opposing OC's have figured him out.

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1 hour ago, dcar00 said:

we don't have the skill.  even when we were healthy this year(and last) we were getting torched.  any QB that can run is killing us.  If Orlando can't teach/coach his scheme he needs to be gone yesterday.  its up to herman to figure it out.  my prediction is if he keeps orlando this will end badly. opposing OC's have figured him out.

This is my concern. We looked bad against La Tech, but had decent moments against Ok State when we weren't letting Sanders run around like VY

Edited by Atticus

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10 hours ago, dcar00 said:

we don't have the skill.  even when we were healthy this year(and last) we were getting torched.  any QB that can run is killing us.  If Orlando can't teach/coach his scheme he needs to be gone yesterday.  its up to herman to figure it out.  my prediction is if he keeps orlando this will end badly. opposing OC's have figured him out.

Getting torched doesn’t mean we don’t have the skill to run the 3 tite.

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50 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

Getting torched doesn’t mean we don’t have the skill to run the 3 tite.

What does it mean?

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Getting torched doesn’t mean we don’t have the skill to run the 3 tite.

Since he’s probably referring to the secondary and Orlando’s penchant for doing dumb shit that requires a lot from them, yeah he’s right.

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21 minutes ago, Tex Long said:

What does it mean?

That our coaching sucks.

6 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:


Since he’s probably referring to the secondary and Orlando’s penchant for doing dumb shit that requires a lot from them, yeah he’s right.

Orlando’s penchant for doing dumb shit is the problem, not the skill set of our defense. Him putting guys in impossible positions doesn’t mean we don’t have the skill set for the 3 tite. Our defensive personnel works better for the 3 tite than a 3-4 or 4-2-5. The 3 tite system would work well for us if it were better coached. 

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5 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

That our coaching sucks.

Seems so. Since it seems to suck as badly, if not worse, for the Offense and Special Teams as well, I thought maybe it's something else.

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I am old school, I remember the days of the "Fearsome Foursome".  We need to go back to a four man front and make the QB pay for his intended actions.  

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27 minutes ago, Tex Long said:

Seems so. Since it seems to suck as badly, if not worse, for the Offense and Special Teams as well, I thought maybe it's something else.

Our offense has better overall personnel than our defense for sure, but the coaching on defense has been much, much worse.

10 minutes ago, Leanderman said:

I am old school, I remember the days of the "Fearsome Foursome".  We need to go back to a four man front and make the QB pay for his intended actions.  

I’d be fine with a 4 man front moving forward, but we wouldn’t be getting a lot of pressure even with 4 down lineman this year. We don’t have anyone who’s even above average at rushing the passer on the roster currently. 

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I’d be fine with a 4 man front moving forward, but we wouldn’t be getting a lot of pressure even with 4 down lineman this year. We don’t have anyone who’s even above average at rushing the passer on the roster currently. 


But Ossai is a perfect fit for the position he occupies. He does make a lot of plays all over the field so why isn’t his rush better? That’s what I don’t get.

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1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

That our coaching sucks.

Orlando’s penchant for doing dumb shit is the problem, not the skill set of our defense. Him putting guys in impossible positions doesn’t mean we don’t have the skill set for the 3 tite. Our defensive personnel works better for the 3 tite than a 3-4 or 4-2-5. The 3 tite system would work well for us if it were better coached. 

right we don't have the skill to do what he is asking.

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