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12 hours ago, DCA_HORN said:

Also who killed Tony if that happened? Phil is dead and they made peace with the rest of the crew. No doubt he had many enemies and somebody probably sensed weakness but who?

The reason that so many of the patrons in the restaurant were callbacks to folks Tony had issues with was to make the point that, given his life/business/behavior, it could have been anybody.

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Why go so far as to kill Tony's entire crew and then stop? Tony didn't have anybody left. The sit down was to lull him into a false sense of security.

Tony is a power hungry MF'er who is only going to come back and get at you when the time is right. You whack him, install the nincompoop Paulie as boss and now you easily have control over both families. Done deal.

 

Edited by smuggs
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Not anything I came up with, but I think the theory that it's Patsy, with NY's blessing is a strong theory. 

He almost tried to kill Tony many seasons earlier to avenge his brother. His other kid likely is going to go down for dealing and he knows Tony suspects he might flip like his kid's partner's dad did after the partner is busted (see the scene where they are sitting down to talk about Meadow and Patrick's wedding).  There's the scene where he calls his other son away from the table so he isn't seen with his partner in crime.  When he and Sil are ambushed, Patsy is able to run away.  No one from NY goes after him even though they take a shot in his direction before they dry fire (maybe that was by design/maybe they were out of ammo).  Lastly, Meadow calls Patrick to tell him she is going to dinner at Holsten's.  Patrick maybe mentions it in front of Patsy, and he sets the wheels in motion with Members Only guy to go there and whack Tony.

Remember, Paulie doesn't want to be in charge and only steps up when Tony mentions he might put Patsy in charge.  With Tony gone, Paulie probably won't put up much of a fight to run the family if Patsy tries to move into Tony's spot. 

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16 hours ago, DCA_HORN said:

Also who killed Tony if that happened? Phil is dead and they made peace with the rest of the crew. No doubt he had many enemies and somebody probably sensed weakness but who?

It's quite obvious that Member's Only jacket guy killed Tony.  The simplest explanation is that he was part of the NY crew that simply hadn't gotten word yet that the war was over. That kind of thing happens all the time in a shooting war.

I know that this is been hashed and re-hashed, but after re-watching the final 4-5 episodes over the past few days, it's more obvious to me than ever that Tony was killed.

All of the clues are plainly there, from all the talk in the final season about "not seeing it coming" to the way the camera lingered on bystanders before both Bobby's and Phil's deaths where they "didn't see it coming"... (same thing was done in the diner) to the POV/flip shots with Tony that set up the final cut to black.

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On 1/11/2019 at 1:30 PM, oSuJeff97 said:

All of the clues are plainly there, from all the talk in the final season about "not seeing it coming" to the way the camera lingered on bystanders before both Bobby's and Phil's deaths where they "didn't see it coming"... (same thing was done in the diner) to the POV/flip shots with Tony that set up the final cut to black.

Two more big clues I noticed: 

Bobby saying ‚Äúyou probably never even hear it when it happens‚ÄĚ out on the lake¬†with Tony.

in a later episode, the scene where that guy gets whacked in the restaurant right in front of Sylvio. In the moment it happens, the sound completely drops out for a second or two. Sylvio is also distracted/looking the other way and doesn’t see it coming.

And of course, Tony doesn’t hear it when it happens, nor see it coming, either. 

Bill Simmons interviewed  Sepinwall in his Friday podcast about the Sopranos and his new book.  AJ’s timeless fart scene gets a shout out. Apparently Chase opens up a bit more about the ending in the interview he gave for the book. (I wonder if it’s more than what was shared in that article I linked).

Edited by CurlyDumps
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Been slowly watching through the series again for about a year and a half in fits and spurts.  Just finished episode 5 season 4 (Ralphie gets a horse, Ade at the club deals with being under the thumb of the FBI).  This show just has so many great moments.  Cracked up at Christopher fighting with Ade as she's cooking his eggs.  "OK, do you love me?  Stir my eggs!"

Tony at the end with the sick horse, lighting a cigar and Rio Bravo starts playing.  So great, only better with the whole bit later on with Melfi reading the study on the criminal mind.

 

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On January 11, 2019 at 3:21 PM, Native Horn said:

I think CurlyDumps link above (the VIEWERS were the ones that got whacked) is very thought-provoking.  I know Chase has now basically said Tony got whacked, but all of us really got whacked too.  

Show me where David Chase ever said that. 

The audience got whacked. That's the only way to read it. I've never seen Chase cop to that, either. But it's our POV that gets taken out suddenly, without warning, and without sound. 

Edited by WhatTheBuck
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Chase's commentary on the finale has been done to death.  He gets clever and preachy and along with analysis from others, it goes on and on about how it was the final punch in the gut to the audience who craved so much violence and annoyed David Chase and his vision.  People were annoying when they complained about not enough whackings in the middle seasons.  However---to David Chase, I would ask---da fuh asshole?  You wouldn't shut up for 10 years about the genius of Goodfellas (among the most violent movies I've ever seen to this day in terms of 'based on true story'), and you come out of the gate with one of the most violent and demeaning shows in TV history in the Sopranos and then just turn on your audience and plot out an 18-month long "fuck-you" two part final season because we hurt your artistic sensibilities?  Both he and the 10-year hand-wringing over what happened to Tony got real annoying, real fast.  

That said, he's a fucking genius, I love him, I love this show, and I loved the Finale.  

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On 1/7/2019 at 8:25 AM, pepper brooks said:

just when I thought I had watched it for the last time, they pull me back in!  Still love the show, and love flipping over to HBO and seeing it re-airing right now.  

Yep...just restarted it again on Amazon for the 3rd time.  Still greatness.

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On 1/9/2019 at 10:28 AM, NeverMarryAStripper said:

it just hasn't grabbed me by the nuts yet.  I'll keep on going through season one and see if it gets any better for me.

It does the opposite for me.  Totally grabs me hard by the nuts and squeezes (no clue why we’re using this analogy).  Although, I’m self-admittedly a whore for all things mob.  Season 1 isn’t the best season, but I still think it’s better than 99% of what’s ever been on television.  It may just not be for you.

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On 1/11/2019 at 12:05 PM, threesheets said:

I'm not trying to start beef or anything, but isn't what happened at the end whatever you want it to be?  People go back and forth like there's an actual answer to the question.  

No. Not really. Like Chase says, ‚Äúit‚Äôs all there.‚ÄĚ He intended it to be interpreted¬†a certain way.

I mean,  soneone could watch ONE FLEW OVER... and tell himself McMurphy doesn’t get lobotomized at the end - he’s just really happy.  But he’d be wrong.

 

on top of the clues, there is so much¬†looming existential dread hanging over the last season. ¬†Like Carmela having an existential crisis in Paris. ¬† Tone-wise, it just fits with the last ‚Äúshot‚ÄĚ being Tony‚Äôs POV - nothingness.

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3 hours ago, Lobo said:

Chase's commentary on the finale has been done to death.  He gets clever and preachy and along with analysis from others, it goes on and on about how it was the final punch in the gut to the audience who craved so much violence and annoyed David Chase and his vision.  People were annoying when they complained about not enough whackings in the middle seasons.  However---to David Chase, I would ask---da fuh asshole?  You wouldn't shut up for 10 years about the genius of Goodfellas (among the most violent movies I've ever seen to this day in terms of 'based on true story'), and you come out of the gate with one of the most violent and demeaning shows in TV history in the Sopranos and then just turn on your audience and plot out an 18-month long "fuck-you" two part final season because we hurt your artistic sensibilities?  Both he and the 10-year hand-wringing over what happened to Tony got real annoying, real fast.  

That said, he's a fucking genius, I love him, I love this show, and I loved the Finale.  

You’ll like this story.  I’m repeating myself from the shaggy thread but w/e. 

I went to a Chase q&a years back (Matt Groening moderated, which was really cool). Some sweet, nervous¬†guy in the audience ¬†stands¬†up and gushes about Northern Exposure, talks about how much the show meant to him, etc, and asked Chase to comment on his experience writing on it. Chase responds, completely deadpan, ‚ÄúI didnt really like that show. ¬†I did it for the money.‚ÄĚ

Edited by CurlyDumps
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On January 13, 2019 at 10:42 AM, PilotsError said:

He strongly implied it in the article above with the direct death scene.  

Anyone who's not in a coma can understand the last few episodes and what was clearly implied.

Nope. You're hearing what you want to hear. There is no such thing as a secret ending to a movie or tv show after the show has ended. In the history of TV and movies, there has never been one that ended with a clffhanger, a "let the audience decide" moment, where there was a correct answer to how it ended. If it's not in the screenplay, and not presented in sound or image during the show, it didn't happen. It's fiction, not documentary. When the show ends, the story's over. 

Just admit the ending sucked. 

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21 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Nope. You're hearing what you want to hear. There is no such thing as a secret ending to a movie or tv show after the show has ended. In the history of TV and movies, there has never been one that ended with a clffhanger, a "let the audience decide" moment, where there was a correct answer to how it ended. If it's not in the screenplay, and not presented in sound or image during the show, it didn't happen. It's fiction, not documentary. When the show ends, the story's over. 

Just admit the ending sucked.

All that.

Well except the part about the ending sucking.  As the seasons went by I started to think the show would end with a "life goes on" moment, like Tony picking up the paper and the camera focusing in on his face as he gives another beaten down look that shows the weight of the world still on his shoulders.  So when it ended the way it did, I wasn't too disappointed.

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32 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Nope. You're hearing what you want to hear. There is no such thing as a secret ending to a movie or tv show after the show has ended. In the history of TV and movies, there has never been one that ended with a clffhanger, a "let the audience decide" moment, where there was a correct answer to how it ended. If it's not in the screenplay, and not presented in sound or image during the show, it didn't happen. It's fiction, not documentary. When the show ends, the story's over. 

Just admit the ending sucked. 

Chase has publicly refuted the notion that the ending was meant to be a cliffhanger ‚Äúlet the audience decide‚ÄĚ moment. ¬†

You’re accusing others of what you are doing yourself,  to loony extremes.

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1 hour ago, CurlyDumps said:

Chase has publicly refuted the notion that the ending was meant to be a cliffhanger ‚Äúlet the audience decide‚ÄĚ moment. ¬†

You’re accusing others of what you are doing yourself,  to loony extremes.

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that there's no such thing as a story that lasts beyond the end of the show. The only way to read the story is that the audience got whacked. The clues were there. The line from earlier in the final season about how you don't hear it. However that line went. That described the experience of the audience at the end of the show. Maybe the desperate fanboys trying to make more of the ending than what it was are illiterate in the language of film, but Chase isn't. If Tony had died in the story, he would've shown it because that's his job as a storyteller. 

Nice ad hominem attack, btw. That's relevant to the subject. You're obviously a thoughtful individual.

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9 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that there's no such thing as a story that lasts beyond the end of the show. The only way to read the story is that the audience got whacked. The clues were there. The line from earlier in the final season about how you don't hear it. However that line went. That described the experience of the audience at the end of the show. Maybe the desperate fanboys trying to make more of the ending than what it was are illiterate in the language of film, but Chase isn't. If Tony had died in the story, he would've shown it because that's his job as a storyteller. 

Nice ad hominem attack, btw. That's relevant to the subject. You're obviously a thoughtful individual.

Whoa.  I was just needling you.  You're taking this a little too personally.

And it's not the fanboys demonstrating film illiteracy.  It's you, with your assertion it's "our POV" that gets taken out. You asserted the same thing in the Shaggy thread, and  I tried to help you understand POV better in a thoughtful way. I linked a clip from "Born on the 4th July" which I think was a pretty good example. But I guess you're dead set on your incorrect understanding of what POV is. It's not literally what the camera is pointing at.  POV doesn't change with every single shot. 

 There are compelling, borderline "hitting you over the head obvious" clues in the actual text that it's Tony's POV that gets "taken out." 

If you wanna talk in terms of film language, what are the visual and/or audial clues that we're in "our own" POV?

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2 hours ago, Celery Man said:

This part of every Sopranos thread is like whenever Janice shows up on the show

I still hate her character, and feel kind bad because whoever played her and A.J. haven't gotten any more work since that show ended because they were do unlikeable even though only like 15% of Americans actually watched this show.  Anyway, I've grown to dislike her less though because I think she's there to remind us that while we see Tony's true dark side with his "work" family, with Carmela, and with Dr. Melfi---to much of their world---he was a really likeable and charming guy.  And Janice was there to put a mirror up (especially after the mother died) to the fact that their whole family was rotten on the inside...and Tony and his Dad just happened to get lucky and have fun-loving affable fronts to put on while the rest of them were bitter pricks inside and out from the women to Uncle Junior.  I dunno.  Janice was a leech just like the Italian Mafia.  She was just extra cunty about it.  

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59 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I still hate her character, and feel kind bad because whoever played her and A.J. haven't gotten any more work since that show ended

WAT?

Aida Turturro has been on ER, Curb, Nurse Jackie, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Grey's Anatomy, The Blacklist, Law & Order SVU and a ton of other stuff since The Sopranos ended.

Iler hasn't done anything except armed robbery. 

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5 minutes ago, RPM said:

WAT?

Aida Turturro has been on ER, Curb, Nurse Jackie, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Grey's Anatomy, The Blacklist, Law & Order SVU and a ton of other stuff since The Sopranos ended.

Iler hasn't done anything except armed robbery. 

I should have recognized her from Curb, that's my bad.  But I've never watched a single episode of any of those other shows.  But that's no excuse, she has been working-good on her.  

Anyway, I still stand by my thoughts on why, in hindsight, that character was needed to be that annoying, especially for Tony in public where he is used to fooling the world as a good sociopath does.  

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1 minute ago, Lobo said:

Anyway, I still stand by my thoughts on why, in hindsight, that character was needed to be that annoying, especially for Tony in public where he is used to fooling the world as a good sociopath does.  

No argument there. Janice was a horrible person.

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On January 14, 2019 at 1:25 PM, CurlyDumps said:

Whoa.  I was just needling you.  You're taking this a little too personally.

And it's not the fanboys demonstrating film illiteracy.  It's you, with your assertion it's "our POV" that gets taken out. You asserted the same thing in the Shaggy thread, and  I tried to help you understand POV better in a thoughtful way. I linked a clip from "Born on the 4th July" which I think was a pretty good example. But I guess you're dead set on your incorrect understanding of what POV is. It's not literally what the camera is pointing at.  POV doesn't change with every single shot. 

 There are compelling, borderline "hitting you over the head obvious" clues in the actual text that it's Tony's POV that gets "taken out." 

If you wanna talk in terms of film language, what are the visual and/or audial clues that we're in "our own" POV?

Point of view doesn't refer to what the camera is looking at, Eisenstein. It's the view of the camera eye. Sometimes it's the view of a character, what they're looking at. Most of the time it's just the view of the audience, what the director chooses to show to the audience in order to tell the story. There's practically an infinite number of ways a director can use that device. It's one of the greatest powers of the medium. 

The last thing we see in The Sopranos is Tony, alive. That is literally the opposite of his point of view, and the opposite of him dying at the end of the show. 

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