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Posted (edited)

I see this stuff and it disgusts me. Organized religion has been and will always get hi-jacked by people or groups of people who want to use it to either control the masses, make money, or as is most often the case, both. 
 

I am a Christian, but I tend to keep my distance from any church that preaches money, money, money or intolerance. I feel that I am no better a person than anyone else, but seeing people use Christ’s name to shame and subjugate others is embarrassing and ridiculous. 
 

I count among my friends people that are believers in Christ, those who are Muslim, Buddhist and those who believe in none of it. The thing they all have in common is not being an extremist and they all look at their fellow human beings as their equal no matter their beliefs. The Christian zealots and blasphemers that are cited in this thread should be shot straight into the sun for what they are doing. Passing that bill in Texas is peak absurdity.

Edited by UpperWestside
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Posted
12 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I see this stuff and it disgusts me. Organized religion has been and will always get hi-jacked by people or groups of people who want to use it to either control the masses, make money, or as is most often the case, both. 
 

I am a Christian, but I tend to keep my distance from any church that preaches money, money, money or intolerance. I feel that I am no better a person than anyone else, but seeing people use Christ’s name to shame and subjugate others is embarrassing and ridiculous. 
 

I count among my friends people that are believers in Christ, those who are Muslim, Buddhist and those who believe in none of it. The thing they all have in common is not being an extremist and they all look at their fellow human beings as their equal no matter their beliefs. The Christian zealots and blasphemers that are cited in this thread should be shot straight into the sun for what they are doing. Passing that bill in Texas is peak absurdity.

Religion exists as a method for subjugation.

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Posted
20 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

In what way is that remotely constitutional? 

Are you under the impression that document means shit these days? 

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Posted
33 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Religion exists as a method for subjugation.

I have never felt subjugated in being a Christian, but I agree with the tenet of what happens when religion is weaponized. That can be Christianity, Islam or any other religious belief system. If I ever felt I was in a Christian church that was preaching hate, intolerance or anything else not in line with anything Christ actually said I’d be out the door like that. I have been blessed to be around so many different belief systems here in New York. I find that being around so much diversity in higher power beliefs is a good thing. 
 

That stuff in Texas is just dangerous because it demonizes non-Christians and we all know kids will start singling out ones who don’t believe like they do. 

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Posted

Religion is a plague that needs to be curb stomped. It has brought the most pain, misery, war and death on humanity while hindering most progress.

It’s time to end the fairy tales…

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Fastbreak said:

Religion is a plague that needs to be curb stomped. It has brought the most pain, misery, war and death on humanity while hindering most progress.

It’s time to end the fairy tales…

Errbody says this, round here.   Question: how?

Posted
1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

In what way is that remotely constitutional? 

They'll advocate for the original federal freedom of religion. Some states still had blasphemy laws after the Constitution was ratified. 

Posted
3 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

Errbody says this, round here.   Question: how?

There is no how. 

Humans have believed fairy tales since the beginning of time. Norse Gods, Egyptian Gods, Greek Gods, Jesus, Allah, Santa Clause, etc, People want a reason for existing. They’d rather believe magic than simply enjoy the experience of existing 

 

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Posted
Religion is a plague that needs to be curb stomped. It has brought the most pain, misery, war and death on humanity while hindering most progress.

It’s time to end the fairy tales…

I like the way you think.
Posted
3 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

I have never felt subjugated in being a Christian, but I agree with the tenet of what happens when religion is weaponized. That can be Christianity, Islam or any other religious belief system. If I ever felt I was in a Christian church that was preaching hate, intolerance or anything else not in line with anything Christ actually said I’d be out the door like that. I have been blessed to be around so many different belief systems here in New York. I find that being around so much diversity in higher power beliefs is a good thing. 
 

That stuff in Texas is just dangerous because it demonizes non-Christians and we all know kids will start singling out ones who don’t believe like they do. 

While religion can be problematic, the real threat is fundamentalism of any kind, sacred or secular.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, BevoAbyss said:

That's the million dollar question. How?

One thing for certain. It ain't coming from the media, corporations, academia, or the Democrats. Biden? AOC? Too much Catholicism. Too much Christianity.

Too much of America is utterly brainwashed into believing religion is a force for good, conveniently cherry-picking from the Bible, while ignoring the horror stories in the Bible and the atrocities committed by religions all over the world. Just read some of the comments above. It's all a bunch of narcissistic delusion in the belief that their personal destiny is ordained by the Creator of a universe with two trillion galaxies stretching across 100 billion light years. Lulz.

But how can religion's political takeover be stopped or at least halted?

I guess, somehow, the 30-35% of Americans who are non-religious need to organize on local, national, and international scales. And they need to have a platform and manifesto, just for starters. If it is not too late. But maybe the non-religious are too apathetic because consumer society offers endless distractions....

The only people as annoying as proselytizing Christians are proselytizing atheists. 

Edited by Sawbonz
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Posted
8 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

The only people as annoying as proselytizing Christians are proselytizing atheists. 

Hide it under a bushel? NO! I’m gonna let it shine!

Religious fanatics constantly cramming their ignorance and superstition down our throats demands a response. People need to know that there’s another way. You don’t HAVE to believe.

We’re all born atheists. The first step on my road to deconversion was learning that atheism was actually a thing. I heard about Madalyn Murray O’Hair. Before then I didn’t even know that there were people who didn’t believe in God. One day when I was about 11 years old, I asked my best friend from church, “What if God doesn’t exist?” Just a simple question. My friend freaked the fuck out. He started shouting, “You’d better fall on your knees right now and ask for forgiveness!” He was afraid to even consider the possibility. That was educational. I wonder how many people there are out there who are too frightened to even consider the possibility. I think it’s important that people know that there are perfectly good, kind, thoughtful, decent people out there who don’t believe in God. They’re not murderers and rapists, devoid of any conscience. A child is much more likely to get raped by a member of the clergy than by an atheist and our prisons are full of believers.

And no, atheism isn’t a belief system. It’s a lack of belief. It’s no more an ideology than “off” is a TV channel. But I think it’s true that living without magical belief in your system has a positive effect on your worldview. And it’s been my experience that religious people tend to let that magical thinking creep into other parts of their life. They tend to be more superstitious in general.

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Posted
31 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Hide it under a bushel? NO! I’m gonna let it shine!

Religious fanatics constantly cramming their ignorance and superstition down our throats demands a response. People need to know that there’s another way. You don’t HAVE to believe.

We’re all born atheists. The first step on my road to deconversion was learning that atheism was actually a thing. I heard about Madalyn Murray O’Hair. Before then I didn’t even know that there were people who didn’t believe in God. One day when I was about 11 years old, I asked my best friend from church, “What if God doesn’t exist?” Just a simple question. My friend freaked the fuck out. He started shouting, “You’d better fall on your knees right now and ask for forgiveness!” He was afraid to even consider the possibility. That was educational. I wonder how many people there are out there who are too frightened to even consider the possibility. I think it’s important that people know that there are perfectly good, kind, thoughtful, decent people out there who don’t believe in God. They’re not murderers and rapists, devoid of any conscience. A child is much more likely to get raped by a member of the clergy than by an atheist and our prisons are full of believers.

And no, atheism isn’t a belief system. It’s a lack of belief. It’s no more an ideology than “off” is a TV channel. But I think it’s true that living without magical belief in your system has a positive effect on your worldview. And it’s been my experience that religious people tend to let that magical thinking creep into other parts of their life. They tend to be more superstitious in general.

Are you trying to prove my point?

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Posted
48 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Are you trying to prove my point?

You were asking for it. I was just answering the call. :)

If you want to make the atheists shut up, stop the Christians from trying to impose their religion on everyone else. 

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Posted
14 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

You were asking for it. I was just answering the call. :)

If you want to make the atheists shut up, stop the Christians from trying to impose their religion on everyone else. 

couldn’t help yourself huh? Kind of like some of the JFK assassination conspiracy theorists I know.


Amazing how you guys leave out Soviet Russia, Maoist China, pol pot’s Cambodia etc when you pontificate about how great state run atheism would be. I’ve had this argument ad nauseum IRL as well as on this online community in its iterations going back to HF, so I’m not interested in getting into it in detail, but one statement has stuck with me when discussing the Soviet state sanctioned murder of thousands priests, bishops, and lay church members, and my friend’s response was that those deaths were necessary to save other lives and establish communism. No irony at all

 

and I would love to be able to stop religious zealots of all faiths from being able to impose their religions on the society at large. In fact, I believe if I could load up the 10% at the extreme on either side of the issue and shoot them into the sun,  the rest of us would get along reasonably well

 

Posted
10 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

The only people as annoying as proselytizing Christians are proselytizing atheists. 

Atheists have exactly 0 holidays and 0 known representatives in government despite being 1/3 of the population (by some estimates).    Maybe they have something to their bitching.  

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Atheists have exactly 0 holidays and 0 known representatives in government despite being 1/3 of the population (by some estimates).    Maybe they have something to their bitching.  

Everyone has the right to bitch (for now). I just pointed out the 2 groups most annoying to me

Posted

It's one group. Proselytizing jackasses.

When the atheists are sticking to the "keep your religion out of my face" argument they are more than tolerable, they're correct. But I do forgive them for going off the rails after that because the evangelists never actually do keep their religion out of their faces. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

couldn’t help yourself huh? Kind of like some of the JFK assassination conspiracy theorists I know.


Amazing how you guys leave out Soviet Russia, Maoist China, pol pot’s Cambodia etc when you pontificate about how great state run atheism would be. I’ve had this argument ad nauseum IRL as well as on this online community in its iterations going back to HF, so I’m not interested in getting into it in detail, but one statement has stuck with me when discussing the Soviet state sanctioned murder of thousands priests, bishops, and lay church members, and my friend’s response was that those deaths were necessary to save other lives and establish communism. No irony at all

 

and I would love to be able to stop religious zealots of all faiths from being able to impose their religions on the society at large. In fact, I believe if I could load up the 10% at the extreme on either side of the issue and shoot them into the sun,  the rest of us would get along reasonably well

 

Sawbonz counter point: humans are tribal and rally around leaders who enforce tribal boundaries and punish those who threaten the tribe. The ideology used  by such leaders may be political, religious, nationality, skin color, or another arbitrary basis for inclusion and exclusion. Religion happens to be one of the most powerful and successful in human history.  Only those that actively fight against tribalism with education and experience crossing tribal lines can overcome the innate human instinct to hate others. Fuck ou.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

Sawbonz, you are probably a nice guy and someone to have a drink with and talk about these topics. I know I have done that zillions of times. But with all due respect, this "both sides" claim is misguided. 

Sorry, but time's up for the apologia, the denialism, the enabling, the equalizing, etc. Time's up for #bothsides

On Negating the Difference Between Religion and Atheism

Religion depends on this. That's the attempt to negate the empirical differences between the evidence-free Sky God myth (that's faith) and the galaxies of evidence for Darwin, Hubble, and the sciences of evolutionary biology, genetics, astrophysics, cosmology, etc. Powered by incredible technologies (telescopes, microscopes, etc), all empirical evidence points unequivocally toward humans being one of millions of life forms that emerged and evolved on a tiny planet, orbiting a flaming ball of hydrogen, all in a vast, majestic, awe-inspiring, and expanding universe of two trillion galaxies stretching across 100 billion light years.

Every human (and life form) on this planet is made of elements born in exploding stars, an empirical fact discovered in 1957. And every human shares 99..5% of the same DNA. Those are empirical facts. That can only mean we are one species sharing one planet.

So far, the human species — in its curiosity and creativity — is the only species on our planet to figure this out about the surrounding universe and life on Earth. And most of the humans on Planet Earth remain in denial, unwittingly clinging to their primate origins which they deny exist!  The virulent hatreds and claims to supremacy seen in religion (and society at large) are from our primate origins!.

Faith is the total belief in God despite the absence of evidence. Atheism is the total absence of belief in any God. But that does not mean I believe in nothing. Science (along with art, philosophy) provides the foundation for a secular worldview grounded in evidence and our true origins in the universe. As for our destiny, that remains to be seen.....

If all humans would accept our evolutionary origins as a single species on a tiny planet, then maybe — just maybe — we could slowly start to get along, live peacefully, share the benefits of our creativity and compassion, and protect the ecosystems of Planet Earth, upon which all life depends. But that ain't happening anytime soon. One key reason is because religion is the fount of Alt-Fact Culture. 

About State-Imposed Atheism

Speaking for myself, I am not advocating state-imposed atheism. You are correct Sawbonz:  that will never work, as history has shown. Neither will state-imposed religion, which also happens to ignore the first line of the First Amendment, at least in America. But that fact is denied by MAGA-GQP and all the others in favor state-imposed religion. And state-imposed violent religion is coming to America, far and wide. #TenCommandments. 

TLDR: Don't conflate a secular worldview (informed by art, science, and secular philosophy) with the fact-free idiocy spewing from MAGA-GQP. 

 


 

Again I have no interest in debating theology or atheism here. I am not conflating anything. While you pay lip service to a secular worldview your other posts make it very clear if you were in charge you would suppress religion in general and Christianity specifically. I have pointed out how that goes. Your posts do not make you seem like the live and let live type. Maybe you are, but what you write here doesn’t back that up

 

and don’t try to twist this into some apology for the christofascists. I am adamantly opposed to them. But that doesn’t mean I can’t see through your bullshit as well

Just now, troph said:

Sawbonz counter point: humans are tribal and rally around leaders who enforce tribal boundaries and punish those who threaten the tribe. The ideology used  by such leaders may be political, religious, nationality, skin color, or another arbitrary basis for inclusion and exclusion. Religion happens to be one of the most powerful and successful in human history.  Only those that actively fight against tribalism with education and experience crossing tribal lines can overcome the innate human instinct to hate others. Fuck ou.

I don’t think this is a counterpoint. I agree with this completely 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

Sorry, but you are conflating, while denying it. Conflating an evidence-and-logic-based critique of religion with the desire/willingness to suppress religion via the state. That's a non sequitur.  

Just because I embrace a scientific outlook and call out the fascist theocracy emerging right before our eyes, it does not follow that I advocate the state suppress religion or Christianity. I have never said or written that anywhere, here or elsewhere. Never. 

All I ask is the First Amendment be upheld, which mandates a separation of church and state. It's very simple. MAGA-GQP are ignoring that part of the First Amendment, while shoving their Ten Commandments down the throat of secular America — in the name of religious freedom and unscientific medieval idiocy (Re: overturning Roe). 

Your accusation is one that has long been popular in conservative and religious circles. It's the old Commie straw-man assertion — godless liberals and commies gonna take my Bible and AR-15. Lulz. 

You have not refuted anything I said, just hurled insults (the Keaton meme) and hackneyed accusations. This is my final reply to you. 

Adios. 

Just read your posts in other threads. You are unabashedly anti religion. That is not a straw man that is an observation. I would stand with you in a fight against advocates of state imposed religion. And as soon as the fight finished I would be worried about your trying to institute a state imposed ban. Adieu 

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Posted
15 hours ago, Satchel said:

While religion can be problematic, the real threat is fundamentalism of any kind, sacred or secular.

When has our society, or a like society, pursued secular fundamentalism (respect for truth) in a manner equivalent to that now underway for our new theocracy, or whatever one might label the 88th legislatures’ program?

Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

When has our society, or a like society, pursued secular fundamentalism (respect for truth) in a manner equivalent to that now underway for our new theocracy, or whatever one might label the 88th legislatures’ program?

I’m not sure “secular fundamentalism” per se exists, but if it does why would the definition be “respect for the truth?”

 

edit put another way can you have a fanatical zeal for “respecting the truth?” Most people really interested in finding the truth are fairly skeptical by nature. And skepticism seems at odds with fundamentalism 

 

2nd edit to clarify position

state imposed religion is dangerous and deadly and a realistic threat currently in our society

 

state imposed ban on religion is dangerous and deadly, and while not an immediate threat to us given the current societal climate, is a very real thing historically 

 

people who want to take every opportunity to tell you how great their religion is are super annoying 

 

people who want to take every opportunity to tell you how religion is fake and the main reason people kill rape and steal are super annoying 

Edited by Sawbonz
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Posted

Because the other options, religion as normally seen, communism, fascism, these are all built on lies.  I don’t know the name of a societal and political program based on truth.  A pipe dream?

Posted

If you do not have any particular faith in God or any higher power that’s cool by me. I do find that fundamentalists in religion are absolutely a threat to those who believe differently than they do. If you want to believe in a magic chicken or the venerable Flying Spaghetti Monster feel free. 


If you are an atheist that’s also cool because being a good human being to others does not require you to believe in anything. I look at this country as a whole and I see good people from every kind of background imaginable that are able to live together.
 

I also see these fundamentalist nuts trying to hi-jack our country and government. I am no fan of them. They preach hate and intolerance and for my own faith that goes directly against anything Jesus ever said or taught. These people are dangerous because they will not stop until they get curb-stomped back under the rock they crawled out from under. 
 

I am very big on a separation of faith from our government. We cannot function in any positive manner with the continued insertion of religion into our local, state and national governing bodies. It’s a non-starter for me because invariably it leads to one group trying to subjugate those who are less powerful. That is absolutely something that’s a no-go for me personally.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BevoAbyss said:

 

 

So far, the human species — in its curiosity and creativity — is the only species on our planet to figure this out about the surrounding universe and life on Earth. And most of the humans on Planet Earth remain in denial, unwittingly clinging to their primate origins which they deny exist!  The virulent hatreds and claims to supremacy seen in religion (and society at large) are from our primate origins! […]

If all humans would accept our evolutionary origins as a single species on a tiny planet, then maybe — just maybe — we could slowly start to get along, live peacefully, share the benefits of our creativity and compassion, and protect the ecosystems of Planet Earth, upon which all life depends. But that ain't happening anytime soon. One key reason is because religion is the fount of Alt-Fact Culture. 

 

This is a bit of science-y gibberish. I have no idea what evidence you have to say that apes ever experience what we could recognize as “hate” or “feeling superior.”  Or for that matter, where you get the idea that religion is linked to our monkey origins, or how you’d even begin to measure this proposal. I welcome any papers about the orangutans’ quest for the divine. 
 

And in any case, the argument can just as easy go the other direction. Most religions implicitly or explicitly frame the spiritual and moral as man’s efforts to distance himself from the grubby beasts. And you’d be fighting biology to not embrace the reality that we are all just troops of hairless chimps who can vocalize, so better to pick up a rock and start bashing the chimps they don’t recognize.  

image.jpeg.28920c031ec950787915887f459209ce.jpeg

 

Edited by 956 Worldwide
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Posted
5 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Are you trying to prove my point?

Bonz

This is a serious discussion on a serious board.  These non-theist views are simply that.  You’re better than/holier than thou statements are not in the least helpful or informative.   Ok, you are a theist.   

Posted
3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Amazing how you guys leave out Soviet Russia, Maoist China, pol pot’s Cambodia etc when you pontificate about how great state run atheism would be.

Nazi Germany and the Catholic Church say hello.

No reasonable person brings up Soviet Russia et al. because they’re irrelevant to the subject. Believers like to bring them up as a means to argue the dangers of atheism but that’s a fallacious argument. Authoritarianism is bad in all its forms. Just look at what a responsible member of the global community Russia is now that Putin has embraced the church. It’s not because they didn’t have religion that the regimes you mentioned were bad. In those systems the government took the place of religion. You can’t blame it on atheism which, again, isn’t a belief system. We can and do fill volumes with accounts of the atrocities committed in the name of the Christian god during the medieval period when there was no separation between the state and the Catholic Church, an era that we commonly refer to as the Dark Ages and which lasted for centuries.

Nobody is saying atheists can’t be assholes. I’m sure there are atheists out there who rape little children just like the Catholic priests and Baptist ministers do. But they’re not doing it because they’re atheists anymore than the Christians are doing it because they’re Christians. I’ll bet there are a lot more Christians raping little children than there are atheists doing it, though.

Which reminds me, I wonder if that “Atheists don’t...” website is still up...

<searching>

...Nope. I didn’t think it was still around. There used to be a website that compiled examples of awful acts committed in the name of religion. You could click through example after example endlessly of things atheists don’t do.

Now the first thing I found was this, which is still pretty cool:

 

Posted
10 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

Bonz

This is a serious discussion on a serious board.  These non-theist views are simply that.  You’re better than/holier than thou statements are not in the least helpful or informative.   Ok, you are a theist.   

I’m fairly certain there are several reading this thread who find my statements helpful and or informative. Also, if I feel like pointing out how annoying it is to be lectured by evangelicals, and a certain subtype of atheist, I will do so here or wherever I feel it is appropriate. Feel free to put me on ignore.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I’m fairly certain there are several reading this thread who find my statements helpful and or informative. Also, if I feel like pointing out how annoying it is to be lectured by evangelicals, and a certain subtype of atheist, I will do so here or wherever I feel it is appropriate. Feel free to put me on ignore.

You're not wrong about outspoken atheists being just as annoying as outspoken evangelicals, but there is a power dynamic at play here. Also, it seems like you are mainly just using your (justified) annoyance at outspoken atheists to concern troll about communism.

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Posted
3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:


 

Again I have no interest in debating theology or atheism here. I am not conflating anything. While you pay lip service to a secular worldview your other posts make it very clear if you were in charge you would suppress religion in general and Christianity specifically. I have pointed out how that goes. Your posts do not make you seem like the live and let live type. Maybe you are, but what you write here doesn’t back that up

 

and don’t try to twist this into some apology for the christofascists. I am adamantly opposed to them. But that doesn’t mean I can’t see through your bullshit as well

I don’t think this is a counterpoint. I agree with this completely 

I meant that’s your counter point to religion is bad.  I was trying to state your position a bit differently.

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Posted
1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

concern troll about communism.

Pointing out that most who extoll the virtues of atheism do so while ignoring the atrocities committed in the societies where it has been compelled by the state is “concern trolling?”  

 

I’m not sure how one would think pointing out the dangers of state imposed atheism in a thread about the dangers of sliding into state imposed religion would be a problem. 
 

to be fair I haven’t read the whole thread. Are there a bunch of posts saying religion is great, but weaponization of religion and state imposed religion are bad? 

Posted
16 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're not wrong about outspoken atheists being just as annoying as outspoken evangelicals, but there is a power dynamic at play here. Also, it seems like you are mainly just using your (justified) annoyance at outspoken atheists to concern troll about communism.

I don’t want you on ignore.  You are acting incredibly sensitive, or so it looks from here.  Thinking of this as a mutual exploration of the subject might. Be a more,helpful model than the debatE/advocacy model.     
 

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Posted

I don’t give a fuck if your theist or atheist. Everyone should be free to believe whatever the fuck they want as long as those beliefs don’t infringe upon the life, liberty, or safety of any other person. The problem is most people believe in shitty things, whether theist or atheist, and want to use their shitty beliefs to wield power over others. 

Religious beliefs are inherently shitty because most religions were formed thousands of years ago when humanity was a murderous, misogynist, rapist fuck show. I’m not saying we’re much better now, but religion is the biggest anchor to our progress. 
 

 

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