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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

How many of those other countries does the United States directly supply with arms and munitions and deploy B-2's on their enemies when they ask us nicely?

 

Are you implying that the US has no national interest in attacking Iran's Nuclear bomb capability?

 

 

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:


He was making the “tu quoque” logical fallacy, in one of its most classic forms.
It’s like the people who deflect our criticism of the cops by arguing “why aren’t you criticizing the criminals???”
Well, because the criminals aren’t supposed to be the good guys…cops are. The criminals don’t work for me, and aren’t paid by my tax dollars…the cops are.
So, yeah…maybe hold Israel, purportedly a democratic, law-abiding state, with a military heavily funded by my neighbors and me, to a slightly higher standard than, say, the criminal, Russian-backed Assad regime in Syria.
That would be the intellectually honest, non-logically fallacious thing to do.

 

Cops and criminals operate in a system of national civil and criminal laws, which include physically enforceable penalties. International geopolitical relations don't exist in classroom, or a courtroom. They are a jungle. Thinking the ICC, or the UN, have any actual enforceable power, is a fallacy.

International law, and diplomatic relations, are great things... up to a point. Once one of the parties has shown they routinely can't be trusted to operate within the principles of the agreed framework, international law is only good for lawyers and idealists to mentally masturbate themselves into believing in "higher standards".

It's nice when two civilized nations can negotiate in good faith, and be trusted to uphold their word. Does Iran operate that way? Can they be trusted? No. So they don't get treated like they operate in good faith, or to a "higher standard".

I don't like Trump, and Israel is far from lily white in their actions, but them attacking Iran's nuclear bomb plans was a good thing. Whataboutism invoking Israel doesn't move me at all. Iran got what was coming to them, the only complaint was that it should have happened 46 years ago.

Edited by MagicSoccerSpray
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

The point the speaker is trying to make is that the criticism is much more strident when it's convenient to criticize Israel for perceived inhumanity, but conveniently quiet when it comes to criticizing any other country. Even when the numbers are orders of magnitude larger. What point do you think he was trying to make?

Whether the criticism is “more strident” or not, do you disagree that the criticism is warranted?

Because bitching about who gets criticized more loudly is an irrelevant distraction. But “irrelevant distraction” pretty much sums up your contributions on this board.

Edited by BrickHorn
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Posted
10 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Whether the criticism is “more strident” or not, do you disagree that the criticism is warranted?

Because bitching about who gets criticized more loudly is an irrelevant distraction. But “irrelevant distraction” pretty much sums up your contributions on this board.

Weird how the criticism of Israel is loudest in the thread about Israel, isn't it?

I suppose we could start the "The 'We Actually Did 9/11' Country Has Been Genociding Yemen For 10 Years And Yet They're Still Our Allies" thread so we can criticize Saudi Arabia. Plenty of places we can take this.

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Posted
46 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Weird how the criticism of Israel is loudest in the thread about Israel, isn't it?

I suppose we could start the "The 'We Actually Did 9/11' Country Has Been Genociding Yemen For 10 Years And Yet They're Still Our Allies" thread so we can criticize Saudi Arabia. Plenty of places we can take this.

It’s a stupid fucking distraction and always has been. It’s the equivalent of going in for surgery to remove a malignant tumor and the surgeon saying “Why should we scrutinize this tumor when your arteries are calcifying?” 

The internet is littered with this kind of diversionary whatboutist propaganda. Shit, it’s basically the Anastasis playbook.

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Posted (edited)

Just so we're all clear, we're at the "why is Israel held to a higher standard than Syria, Sudan, and Yemen?" phase of the discussion. And soccer spray dude wants to be taken seriously.

Edited by aggie08
Posted

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-aware-reported-death-american-after-beating-by-israeli-settlers-2025-07-12/

RAMALLAH, West Bank, July 11 (Reuters) - A Palestinian American man was beaten to death by settlers in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and a second man was shot dead, the Palestinian Health Ministry said in a statement, in a confrontation overnight.

U.S. citizen Sayafollah Musallet, 20, also known as Saif, was severely beaten in the incident on Friday evening in Sinjil, north of Ramallah, the ministry said. Hussein Al-Shalabi, 23 was shot in the chest.

Musallet's family, from Tampa Florida, said in a statement that medics tried to reach him for three hours before his brother managed to carry him to an ambulance, but that he died before reaching the hospital.

"This is an unimaginable nightmare and injustice that no family should ever have to face. We demand the U.S. State Department lead an immediate investigation and hold the Israeli settlers who killed Saif accountable for their crimes," the family statement said.

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Posted
1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Just so we're all clear, we're at the "why is Israel held to a higher standard than Syria, Sudan, and Yemen?" phase of the discussion. And soccer spray dude wants to be taken seriously.

If you want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't deliberately misinterpret what was said. But now that you brought it up, please explain the system whereby each country is held to a different standard. What standard is set for Russia in Ukraine? How about China? How about Yemen, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia? How about Sudan, Nigeria, Mali? Who sets the standard and what is the process for setting the standard? Once the standard is set, who enforces it and how is it enforced?

Posted
49 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Why are these people called settlers? They are religious fanatics 

Manifest destiny over God's Promised Land.

They’re Sooners. Land Thieves, if you will.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

Why are these people called settlers? They are religious fanatics 

They're terrorists. It's state-sponsored terror. There is no more accurate description.

33 minutes ago, Bevo said:

If you want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't deliberately misinterpret what was said. But now that you brought it up, please explain the system whereby each country is held to a different standard. What standard is set for Russia in Ukraine? How about China? How about Yemen, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia? How about Sudan, Nigeria, Mali? Who sets the standard and what is the process for setting the standard? Once the standard is set, who enforces it and how is it enforced?

This is the Israel thread, in case you're lost. 

Posted
1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Just so we're all clear, we're at the "why is Israel held to a higher standard than Syria, Sudan, and Yemen?" phase of the discussion. And soccer spray dude wants to be taken seriously.

I didn't realize our Congresscritters from both sides of the aisle were doing photo ops with Sudanese leadership and sending billions of my fucking money to them so that they can bomb hospitals and set up a firing squad for starving people looking for food

Posted
49 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I didn't realize our Congresscritters from both sides of the aisle were doing photo ops with Sudanese leadership and sending billions of my fucking money to them.

 

The US has provided over $2.3 billion in humanitarian assistance to Sudan and neighboring countries since the start of the conflict in April 2023. This includes over $1.4 billion from USAID and over $980 million in fiscal year 2024. The US is the largest single donor of humanitarian aid to Sudan. 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.750277df26cde9ccad680a3da7878336.jpeg

image.jpeg.e22973ccad89b3c1a810e7d41bd68da8.jpeg

 

 

 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Bevo said:

 

The US has provided over $2.3 billion in humanitarian assistance to Sudan and neighboring countries since the start of the conflict in April 2023. This includes over $1.4 billion from USAID and over $980 million in fiscal year 2024. The US is the largest single donor of humanitarian aid to Sudan. 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.750277df26cde9ccad680a3da7878336.jpeg

image.jpeg.e22973ccad89b3c1a810e7d41bd68da8.jpeg

 

 

 

Way to misquote me.

Posted
12 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

The US has provided over $2.3 billion in humanitarian assistance to Sudan and neighboring countries since the start of the conflict in April 2023. This includes over $1.4 billion from USAID and over $980 million in fiscal year 2024. The US is the largest single donor of humanitarian aid to Sudan. 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.750277df26cde9ccad680a3da7878336.jpeg

image.jpeg.e22973ccad89b3c1a810e7d41bd68da8.jpeg

 

 

 

Really sad and pathetic to cut off his quote there.

Again, this is the Israel thread. Stop deflecting.

Posted
On 7/6/2025 at 3:20 PM, Schulz2.0 said:

This will be interesting...

It will be, since Netanyahu only won the no-confidence vote because he promised they wouldn't be called up. The Orthodox were willing to join up with the other groups to boot him out of power.  There's been a lot of noise about this over the past few days on a friend's (from Israel) group chat and how there's going to be a lot of students ignoring the call-up, forcing a showdown with the government.  These people that are being targeted don't want to server because they disagree politically or are afraid of dying or whatever, it's religious with them.  Really religious.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Really sad and pathetic to cut off his quote there.

so that they can bomb hospitals and set up a firing squad for starving people looking for food

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8j18w3ndg9o

Children killed in 'appalling' Sudan hospital attack - WHO head

"Another appalling attack" on a hospital in Sudan has seen more than 40 people killed, many of them children and medics, the head of the World Health Organization (WHO) has said.

"We cannot say this louder," wrote Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus on X on Tuesday, "attacks on health must stop everywhere!"

Al-Mujlad Hospital was struck on Saturday, and is located in West Kordofan state, close to one of the frontlines where Sudan's warring parties are fighting in the conflict that is now in its third year.

The Rapid Support Forces (RSF) blames its opponents the Sudanese army for attacking the hospital, as do two prominent civil society groups, but the army itself has yet to comment on the allegation.

Since Sudan's civil war began in April 2023, the scale of suffering is so vast that the UN has labelled it the world's worst humanitarian crisis.

In addition to allegations of genocide in Darfur, the murder of many thousands of civilians across the country, plus the displacement of millions more, both sides in this conflict have been accused of carrying out war crimes on medical facilities and staff, according to evidence seen by BBC News Arabic.

Al-Mujlad Hospital, in the town of Muglad, was "the only functioning healthcare facility in the area", according to the Sudan Doctors Network.

Of the more than 40 people killed, six of them were children and five were health workers, the WHO's office in Sudan said on Sunday. Dozens of other people were injured too, it added.

Crucially, the hospital ran a dialysis unit and focused on the care of civilians as opposed to soldiers, according to the Emergency Lawyers group, which documents abuses by both the RSF and the army.

Both the Sudan Doctors Network and the Emergency Lawyers group say the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) were to blame for the attack on Saturday.

But the doctors' body says the reason for the attack was that the army was trying to kill RSF fighters "stationed inside" al-Mujlad Hospital. The RSF has not commented on that claim, nor has the army.

On Monday, the head of the UN children's agency, Unicef, warned of a "worsening crisis" for children caused by Sudan's civil war and said the aid response lacked two....

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1156266

Sudan’s ‘living nightmare’ continues as 11 million flee war, mass killings

 
A mother carries her baby in Port Sudan, on the Sudanese coast.
© WFP/Abubakar Garelnabei
A mother carries her baby in Port Sudan, on the Sudanese coast.

 

29 October 2024 Peace and Security

Escalating violence and new atrocities in Sudan have pushed the humanitarian crisis to unprecedented levels, with displacement now exceeding 11 million people amid reports of mass killings and systematic-sexual violence across multiple regions, UN officials said on Tuesday. 

“The situation in Sudan is catastrophic. There is simply no other way to put it. Hunger disease and sexual violence are rampant. For the people of Sudan, this is a living nightmare,” warned Amy Pope, Director General of the International Organization for Migration (IOM).

The conflict, which erupted in April 2023 between the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) and their former partners turned rivals for power, the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), has now displaced 11 million inside the country.  After more than 18 months of war, 3.1 million are sheltering beyond its borders, IOM said on Tuesday.

Violence surges

UN human rights chief Volker Türk also voiced “extreme concern” on Tuesday over a dramatic escalation of hostilities in Sudan’s Al-Jazirah State.

According to his rights office (OHCHR) the violence intensified following the 20 October defection of RSF commander Abu Aqla Keikel to the forces of the ruling military Government.

In apparent retaliation, the RSF launched a series of attacks targeting members of his ethnic group, killing at least 124 people on Friday in Al-Seriha village, with uncorroborated video reportedly showing dozens of bodies lined up for burial.

The violence follows earlier brutal attacks by RSF ground forces on the nearby towns of Tamboul and Rufaa, with hundreds reportedly killed amid widespread looting and destruction. Reports indicate civilians were detained, communication devices confiscated, and crops burned, in what was once considered the country’s “breadbasket”, OHCHR revealed.

As a result of the violence, thousands of families have reportedly been displaced from Al-Jazirah state.

“All wars are brutal, but the toll of this one is particularly horrifying,” said Ms. Pope. “Indiscriminate attacks are killing civilians, including young children, some of the areas of most severe need remain cut off entirely, with no access to humanitarian aid” she added.

Sexual violence reaches ‘staggering’ levels

Amid the escalating violence, a new report by the UN Independent Fact-Finding Mission reveals widespread sexual violence by RSF forces, particularly in Greater Khartoum, Darfur and Geziera States. The acts amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity, according to the investigation.

The investigators mandated by the Human Rights Council report at least 25 verified cases of sexual violence, including attacks against medical personnel and an 11-year-old girl who died as a result.

The sheer scale of sexual violence we have documented in Sudan is staggering,” said Mohamed Chande Othman, Chair of the Fact-Finding Mission. “The situation faced by vulnerable civilians, in particular women and girls of all ages, is deeply alarming and needs urgent address.”

Response falls short

Despite the severity of the crisis, the international community’s response remains severely underfunded, with the UN’s humanitarian appeal only 52 percent funded. IOM’s portion is just 20 percent funded, despite having assisted nearly three million people since the war began.

Sudan is easily the most neglected crisis in the world today. The collective failure to act means the devastation risks spilling over into neighboring countries,” warned Ms. Pope, who urges immediate international action to prevent further regional destabilization.

 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Again, this is the Israel thread. Stop deflecting.

LOLs. Don't be a clown. I'm not the one who said, "I didn't realize our Congresscritters from both sides of the aisle were doing photo ops with Sudanese leadership and sending billions of my fucking money to them so that they can bomb hospitals and set up a firing squad for starving people looking for food "

 

24 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Way to misquote me.

Better? 

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Posted

@Bevo so what, exactly is your point? Do you think that we're ok with what other countries do with our money but not Israel, or that we shouldn't criticize Israel because we are also allied with/fund other countries that also commit atrocities?

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

@Bevo so what, exactly is your point? Do you think that we're ok with what other countries do with our money but not Israel, or that we shouldn't criticize Israel because we are also allied with/fund other countries that also commit atrocities?

Besides, USAID is dead now, but we'll still keep giving military aid to Israel.

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Posted
36 minutes ago, Bevo said:

so that they can bomb hospitals and set up a firing squad for starving people looking for food

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8j18w3ndg9o

Children killed in 'appalling' Sudan hospital attack - WHO head

"Another appalling attack" on a hospital in Sudan has seen more than 40 people killed, many of them children and medics, the head of the World Health Organization (WHO) has said.

"We cannot say this louder," wrote Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus on X on Tuesday, "attacks on health must stop everywhere!"

Al-Mujlad Hospital was struck on Saturday, and is located in West Kordofan state, close to one of the frontlines where Sudan's warring parties are fighting in the conflict that is now in its third year.

The Rapid Support Forces (RSF) blames its opponents the Sudanese army for attacking the hospital, as do two prominent civil society groups, but the army itself has yet to comment on the allegation.

Since Sudan's civil war began in April 2023, the scale of suffering is so vast that the UN has labelled it the world's worst humanitarian crisis.

In addition to allegations of genocide in Darfur, the murder of many thousands of civilians across the country, plus the displacement of millions more, both sides in this conflict have been accused of carrying out war crimes on medical facilities and staff, according to evidence seen by BBC News Arabic.

Al-Mujlad Hospital, in the town of Muglad, was "the only functioning healthcare facility in the area", according to the Sudan Doctors Network.

Of the more than 40 people killed, six of them were children and five were health workers, the WHO's office in Sudan said on Sunday. Dozens of other people were injured too, it added.

Crucially, the hospital ran a dialysis unit and focused on the care of civilians as opposed to soldiers, according to the Emergency Lawyers group, which documents abuses by both the RSF and the army.

Both the Sudan Doctors Network and the Emergency Lawyers group say the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) were to blame for the attack on Saturday.

But the doctors' body says the reason for the attack was that the army was trying to kill RSF fighters "stationed inside" al-Mujlad Hospital. The RSF has not commented on that claim, nor has the army.

On Monday, the head of the UN children's agency, Unicef, warned of a "worsening crisis" for children caused by Sudan's civil war and said the aid response lacked two....

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1156266

Sudan’s ‘living nightmare’ continues as 11 million flee war, mass killings

 
A mother carries her baby in Port Sudan, on the Sudanese coast.
© WFP/Abubakar Garelnabei
A mother carries her baby in Port Sudan, on the Sudanese coast.

 

29 October 2024 Peace and Security

Escalating violence and new atrocities in Sudan have pushed the humanitarian crisis to unprecedented levels, with displacement now exceeding 11 million people amid reports of mass killings and systematic-sexual violence across multiple regions, UN officials said on Tuesday. 

“The situation in Sudan is catastrophic. There is simply no other way to put it. Hunger disease and sexual violence are rampant. For the people of Sudan, this is a living nightmare,” warned Amy Pope, Director General of the International Organization for Migration (IOM).

The conflict, which erupted in April 2023 between the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) and their former partners turned rivals for power, the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), has now displaced 11 million inside the country.  After more than 18 months of war, 3.1 million are sheltering beyond its borders, IOM said on Tuesday.

Violence surges

UN human rights chief Volker Türk also voiced “extreme concern” on Tuesday over a dramatic escalation of hostilities in Sudan’s Al-Jazirah State.

According to his rights office (OHCHR) the violence intensified following the 20 October defection of RSF commander Abu Aqla Keikel to the forces of the ruling military Government.

In apparent retaliation, the RSF launched a series of attacks targeting members of his ethnic group, killing at least 124 people on Friday in Al-Seriha village, with uncorroborated video reportedly showing dozens of bodies lined up for burial.

The violence follows earlier brutal attacks by RSF ground forces on the nearby towns of Tamboul and Rufaa, with hundreds reportedly killed amid widespread looting and destruction. Reports indicate civilians were detained, communication devices confiscated, and crops burned, in what was once considered the country’s “breadbasket”, OHCHR revealed.

As a result of the violence, thousands of families have reportedly been displaced from Al-Jazirah state.

“All wars are brutal, but the toll of this one is particularly horrifying,” said Ms. Pope. “Indiscriminate attacks are killing civilians, including young children, some of the areas of most severe need remain cut off entirely, with no access to humanitarian aid” she added.

Sexual violence reaches ‘staggering’ levels

Amid the escalating violence, a new report by the UN Independent Fact-Finding Mission reveals widespread sexual violence by RSF forces, particularly in Greater Khartoum, Darfur and Geziera States. The acts amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity, according to the investigation.

The investigators mandated by the Human Rights Council report at least 25 verified cases of sexual violence, including attacks against medical personnel and an 11-year-old girl who died as a result.

The sheer scale of sexual violence we have documented in Sudan is staggering,” said Mohamed Chande Othman, Chair of the Fact-Finding Mission. “The situation faced by vulnerable civilians, in particular women and girls of all ages, is deeply alarming and needs urgent address.”

Response falls short

Despite the severity of the crisis, the international community’s response remains severely underfunded, with the UN’s humanitarian appeal only 52 percent funded. IOM’s portion is just 20 percent funded, despite having assisted nearly three million people since the war began.

Sudan is easily the most neglected crisis in the world today. The collective failure to act means the devastation risks spilling over into neighboring countries,” warned Ms. Pope, who urges immediate international action to prevent further regional destabilization.

 

 

 

 

LOLs. Don't be a clown. I'm not the one who said, "I didn't realize our Congresscritters from both sides of the aisle were doing photo ops with Sudanese leadership and sending billions of my fucking money to them so that they can bomb hospitals and set up a firing squad for starving people looking for food "

 

Better? 

Start a Sudan thread and literally everyone criticizing Israel on this thread will join you over there to criticize the perpetrators of that injustice as well, you fucking dolt.

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Posted
4 hours ago, Bevo said:

If you want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't deliberately misinterpret what was said. But now that you brought it up, please explain the system whereby each country is held to a different standard. What standard is set for Russia in Ukraine? How about China? How about Yemen, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia? How about Sudan, Nigeria, Mali? Who sets the standard and what is the process for setting the standard? Once the standard is set, who enforces it and how is it enforced?

Jesus fuck. The standard is Russia, China, and Yemen don't get to be our allies that we supply with more weapons than they know what to do with, and the military spends countless hours war gaming possible scenarios with them if they overstep. Is this a bit?

Now, if you want to criticize our problematic relationship with Saudi Arabia, by all means.

Posted

Arguing that we shouldn't give humanitarian aid to bad actor countries (hey, don't worry, we're not anymore) if they don't stop committing atrocities is certainly a take.

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

@Bevo so what, exactly is your point? Do you think that we're ok with what other countries do with our money but not Israel, or that we shouldn't criticize Israel because we are also allied with/fund other countries that also commit atrocities?

What are you two putzes clamoring about? Chainsaw said that we didn't give billions to Sudan, that we didn't do political photoshoots with Sudan and that Sudan didn't bomb hospitals, commit genocide, or kill children. It isn't my fault that you and chainsaw don't know a god damn thing about Sudan. I showed you the info. and instead of thanking me for fixing your ignorance, you argued and gave me a fuck you. I'm sorry for educating you on Sudan. I guess I should have left you and chainsaw clueless - not that that is anything new.

Edited by Bevo
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Posted
2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

That's.... Not what he said?

Chainsaw said:

I didn't realize our Congresscritters from both sides of the aisle were doing photo ops with Sudanese leadership and sending billions of my fucking money to them so that they can bomb hospitals and set up a firing squad for starving people looking for food

 

I said:

What are you two putzes clamoring about? Chainsaw said that we didn't give billions to Sudan, that we didn't do political photoshoots with Sudan and that Sudan didn't bomb hospitals, commit genocide, or kill children. It isn't my fault that you and chainsaw don't know a god damn thing about Sudan. I showed you the info. and instead of thanking me for fixing your ignorance, you argued and gave me a fuck you. I'm sorry for educating you on Sudan. I guess I should have left you and chainsaw clueless - not that that is anything new.

 

So please explain to me what he said. 

Posted

No one, at all, is denying the atrocities committed in Sudan, you moron.

You know damn well that those two things are not at all the same thing. We're talking about humanitarian aid being stolen/misused by bad actors within Sudan vs. the direct funding/support of Israeli military operations with our full blessing.

You still haven't answered my question. 

Posted

Israeli missile hits Gaza children collecting water, IDF blames malfunction

Reuters Link

Spoiler

JERUSALEM - At least eight Palestinians, most of them children, were killed and more than a dozen others were wounded in central Gaza on Sunday, local officials said, in an Israeli missile strike which the military said missed its intended target.

The Israeli military said it had intended to hit an Islamic Jihad militant in the area but that a malfunction had caused the missile to fall "dozens of metres from the target".

"The IDF regrets any harm to uninvolved civilians," it said in a statement, adding that the incident was under review.

The strike hit a water distribution point in Nuseirat refugee camp, killing six children and injuring 17 others, said Ahmed Abu Saifan, an emergency physician at Al-Awda Hospital.

Water shortages in Gaza have worsened sharply in recent weeks, with fuel shortages causing desalination and sanitation facilities to close, making people dependent on collection centres where they can fill up their plastic containers.

In another attack, Palestinian media reported that a prominent hospital consultant was among 12 people killed by an Israeli strike mid-morning on a busy market in Gaza City.

Gaza's health ministry said on Sunday that more than 58,000 people had been killed since the start of the war between Israel and Hamas in October 2023, with 139 people added to the death toll over the past 24 hours.

The ministry does not distinguish between civilians and fighters in its tally, but says over half of those killed are women and children.

Talks aimed at securing a ceasefire appeared to be deadlocked, with the two sides divided over the extent of an eventual Israeli withdrawal from the Palestinian enclave, Palestinian and Israeli sources said at the weekend.

The indirect talks over a U.S. proposal for a 60-day ceasefire were continuing in Doha, but optimism that surfaced last week of a possible deal has largely faded, with both sides accusing each other of intransigence.

...

 

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Posted

I think most Americans (including myself) previously ate up the narrative that Israel were the good guys. A lazy assumption based on a lack of knowledge and the US government's staunch support all these years. 

The reality is the pain and death of this endless Holy War has created extremists everywhere in the region. 

 

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Posted

image.thumb.png.96669e2d0ed215a26e9dc7ab3e17e516.png
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/14/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-cease-fire.html

An Israeli proposal to force much of Gaza’s population into a small zone in the territory’s south has threatened to derail the latest effort to achieve a truce between Israel and Hamas.

In recent weeks, Israeli officials have briefed journalists and foreign counterparts on a loose plan to force hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians into an area controlled by Israel’s military close to the Gaza-Egypt border. Legal experts have warned that the plan would violate international law because the civilians would be barred from returning to their homes to the north, a restriction that would constitute a form of ethnic cleansing.

While the Israeli government has yet to formally announce or comment on the plan, the idea of a new encampment in southern Gaza was first proposed last week by Israel Katz, the Israeli defense minister. He discussed it at a briefing with Israeli correspondents who focus on military affairs, and The New York Times reviewed readouts of the briefing written by its attendees. Several attendees also wrote articles that attracted widespread attention among both Israelis and Palestinians.

A spokesman for Mr. Katz declined to comment on the reports, as did the office of Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister.

Now, Hamas has cited Mr. Katz’s proposal as one of the latest obstacles to a new truce. During a cease-fire, in exchange for releasing roughly 25 hostages, Hamas wants Israeli troops to withdraw from much of Gaza. The new Israeli plan makes such an outcome far less likely, since it would ensure that Israeli troops remained in charge of a large area over which Hamas seeks to reestablish control.

Husam Badran, a senior member of Hamas, described the establishment of the encampment as a “deliberatively obstructive demand” that would complicate the fraught negotiations.

“This would be an isolated city that resembles a ghetto,” Mr. Badran said on Monday in a text message. “This is utterly unacceptable, and no Palestinian would agree to this.”

Hopes for an imminent truce rose last week after Mr. Netanyahu went to Washington for meetings with President Trump that many expected would result in an Israeli compromise. Instead, Mr. Netanyahu — who has previously slow-walked negotiations for personal and political reasons — returned to Israel without a breakthrough.

The negotiations remain stuck on issues including the permanence of any truce: Israel wants to be able to return to war, while Hamas wants guarantees that any cease-fire would evolve into a full cessation of hostilities. Israel also wants Hamas to commit to disarmament, an idea that the militant group has rejected. There are also disagreements over how aid will be delivered during a truce.

According to some of the readouts of the briefing by Mr. Katz, the defense minister described the proposed new encampment as a “humanitarian city” that would, at first, house at least 600,000 Palestinians. Mr. Katz said it would later hold the entire population of Gaza, or roughly 2 million people, according to the readouts and reports. Israeli critics likened it to a modern-day “concentration camp” because its residents would not be allowed to leave the area’s northern perimeter in order to return home.

That could constitute “forcible transfer,” a crime under international law, according to a group of Israeli international law experts who wrote an open letter on the matter to Mr. Katz and the head of Israel’s military, Lt. Gen. Eyal Zamir.

If implemented,“the plan would constitute a series of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and under certain conditions, could amount to the crime of genocide,” the letter said.

Israel’s military declined to comment on whether it had been ordered to implement the plan.

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Posted

The genocide in Gaza continues: 32 yesterday; 60+ today.

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https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/20/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-evacuation.html

Israeli forces killed and wounded dozens of Palestinians on Sunday in the northern Gaza Strip, after crowds gathered near a crossing from Israel to try to seize aid from United Nations trucks entering the enclave, according to the Gaza health ministry and health workers.

The episode was the latest in a string of deadly shootings as hunger and desperation have gripped Palestinians in Gaza during Israel’s nearly two-year campaign against Hamas.

The latest attack took place near the Zikim crossing between the Gaza Strip and Israel. More than 60 people were killed while seeking aid in northern Gaza on Sunday, according to the health ministry and Mohammad Abu Salmiya, the director of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City.

A field hospital operated by the Palestine Red Crescent Society in northern Gaza was flooded with gunshot victims from the episode near Zikim. The hospital received two of the dead and more than 100 wounded, said Nebal Farsakh, a spokeswoman for the Red Crescent.

Israeli soldiers fired “warning shots” after thousands of Gazans gathered in the area, the Israeli military said in a statement. They had opened fire to “remove an immediate threat posed to them,” it added, but did not specify the nature of the threat.

The Israeli military also said that the reported number of casualties did “not align” with its initial review, but it did not provide an alternative toll. The military was continuing to examine the episode, it said.

The United Nations’ World Food Program said in a statement that a convoy of 25 trucks carrying food for Palestinians was entering northern Gaza when it “encountered massive crowds of hungry civilians which came under gunfire.”

The agency said it was “working with authorities to gather more details about the incident.”

Chaos has dominated aid distribution in Gaza amid widespread hunger in the territory. Israeli soldiers have repeatedly opened fire near huge crowds of desperate Palestinians heading to sites run by American contractors for the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a private and controversial Israeli-backed group, according to witnesses and the Israeli military.

At least 32 people were killed on Saturday after Israeli soldiers began shooting near a Gaza Humanitarian Foundation site in southern Gaza, according to the Gaza health ministry. The episode on Sunday did not occur near one of the foundation’s sites.

Quote

 

Shadi al-Nazli, 27, said he went to the border area on Sunday morning after hearing a rumor that trucks carrying flour would be entering through the Zikim crossing. The zone is known to be dangerous, as Israeli soldiers sometimes open fire if Palestinians get too close to the border, he said.

Palestinians frequently rush to seize aid from trucks as soon as they begin emerging from the Israeli side, Mr. al-Nazli said. Israeli soldiers shoot in an effort to keep the Palestinians away, but the desperate crowds are frequently undeterred, he said.

On Sunday, he said that “there were massive crowds of people, most of whom had spent the night there.” After the trucks crossed, the situation quickly devolved into gunfire, he said.

After the deadly shooting on Sunday, the Israeli military warned Palestinians to leave the populated areas of northern Gaza and parts of Gaza City that have been subject to previous evacuation orders, describing them as “combat zones.”

That followed an Israeli military order to Palestinians earlier in the day to evacuate parts of the central Gaza city of Deir al-Balah, one of the few areas in the territory where Israel has not conducted major ground operations during its military campaign against Hamas.

Many Palestinians had sought refuge around Deir al-Balah after being displaced several times from other parts of the enclave, because it has remained largely intact during the devastating 21-month Israeli campaign. The order to leave further shrinks the areas where the roughly two million residents of Gaza can live in relative safety and caused panic among Palestinians afraid that Israel was set to expand its ground invasion.

It was not clear if the evacuation notice portended an imminent expansion of Israel’s military incursion or was meant as a pressure tactic to wrest concessions from Hamas in the sluggish negotiations for a cease-fire.

More than 57,000 Palestinians, including thousands of children, have been killed during the war, according to the Gaza health ministry, which does not distinguish between combatants and civilians. The war was ignited by a Hamas-led attack on Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, in which some 1,200 people were killed and around 250 others taken hostage.

Many in Deir Al-Balah have been trying to find alternative accommodation, said Abdelhalim Awad, a local bakery owner.

“These are already areas packed with tent encampments,” Mr. Awad said. “People are wondering where else they can even go.”

Mr. Awad’s home is just north of where the Israeli military has ordered people to leave, and his bakery is in the evacuation zone. He said he feared the area where he lives may be next.

“This might be part of the negotiations — or the army might invade tomorrow,” he said. “There’s a lot of fear. We don’t know what will happen.”

Israeli ground forces have largely refrained from operating in a patch of central Gaza, including Deir al-Balah. The military has been worried that doing so could endanger the remaining hostages who were taken in 2023 and are believed to be held there, according to Israeli analysts.

The Hostages and Missing Families Forum, an Israeli organization that advocates for the hostages and their families, expressed alarm over the military’s announcement.

“Can anyone promise us that this decision will not come at the cost of losing our loved ones?” the group said in a statement, adding, “For the hostages, this is not a ‘card’ in negotiations, but a tangible and immediate danger to their fate.”

About 50 captives remain in Gaza, of whom about 20 are believed to be alive, according to the Israeli government. Hamas officials have said that their captors are under orders to kill the hostages should Israeli troops close in on them.

 

 

  • Rage+1 4
Posted

CAIRO, July 20 (Reuters) - At least 67 Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire as they waited for U.N. aid trucks in northern Gaza on Sunday, the Gaza health ministry said, as Israel issued new evacuation orders for areas packed with displaced people.
 

 

We add to our unsustainable national debt to finance this shit.  The fucking absurdity. 

Posted

And it continues. 

Eyewitnesses said massive air strikes took place on the city overnight into Monday, one of the last remaining areas of the Strip not to suffer significant damage from the Israel-Hamas war.

The Israeli military has launched a ground operation on Monday in the central Gaza city of Deir al-Balah, sending in tanks a day after dropping leaflets on neighbourhoods advising people to evacuate.

The ground operation, the first to take place in the city since the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza erupted in 2023, is being accompanied by aerial strikes by Israel's air force.

Eyewitnesses said massive air strikes took place on the city overnight into Monday, one of the last remaining areas of the Strip not to suffer significant damage from the war.

The city is hosting thousands of Palestinians displaced from southern Gaza and is also the main hub for erratic aid deliveries due to its central location.

The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) cautioned against a military operation in Deir al-Balah after the IDF dropped evacuation orders on the city on Sunday.

https://www.euronews.com/2025/07/21/israeli-military-launches-first-ground-operation-into-central-gaza-city-of-deir-al-balah

 

  • Rage+1 1
  • Fuck Around and Find Out 1
Posted
Just now, InkaUtexas said:

And it continues. 

Eyewitnesses said massive air strikes took place on the city overnight into Monday, one of the last remaining areas of the Strip not to suffer significant damage from the Israel-Hamas war.

The Israeli military has launched a ground operation on Monday in the central Gaza city of Deir al-Balah, sending in tanks a day after dropping leaflets on neighbourhoods advising people to evacuate.

The ground operation, the first to take place in the city since the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza erupted in 2023, is being accompanied by aerial strikes by Israel's air force.

Eyewitnesses said massive air strikes took place on the city overnight into Monday, one of the last remaining areas of the Strip not to suffer significant damage from the war.

The city is hosting thousands of Palestinians displaced from southern Gaza and is also the main hub for erratic aid deliveries due to its central location.

The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) cautioned against a military operation in Deir al-Balah after the IDF dropped evacuation orders on the city on Sunday.

https://www.euronews.com/2025/07/21/israeli-military-launches-first-ground-operation-into-central-gaza-city-of-deir-al-balah

 

I see we're pretty much to the point where the main Israel-defender line is not to deny that any of these attacks on civilians or aid stations are happening, but solely to launch ad hominem attacks against some people reporting those attacks as "anti-semitic" (while ignoring the fact that numerous mainstream sources are reporting the same events).

If any other nation was committing these acts -- say, Russia was doing it -- the criticism would be pretty universal (except for the Russia apologist crowd).  But when Israel does it, any and all criticism and calls for consequences are dismissed because "anti-semitism."  It's just fucking tired.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I see we're pretty much to the point where the main Israel-defender line is not to deny that any of these attacks on civilians or aid stations are happening, but solely to launch ad hominem attacks against some people reporting those attacks as "anti-semitic" (while ignoring the fact that numerous mainstream sources are reporting the same events).

Notice how all the staunch, principled Israel defenders have abandoned this thread. There is nothing left to defend.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
Just now, Brian Fantana said:

There is nothing left to defend.

This is really it.  The world spent months discussing whether Israel was "going too far" in its war against Hamas.

Now, these actions aren't remotely close to military actions.  They are strikes against civilians.  By a government which has numerous mouthpieces who have stated their intent to cleanse Gaza of all Palestinians.  It's just indefensible.

  • Hook 'Em 1

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