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Posted
1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

I believe the gear lever is pretty far above the flap lever on the the 787.  That would be a really egregious error - way worse than the one a couple of years ago on the ATR.

Yeah the landing gear controls are up in front near the glass, and flap controls are down next to the throttle - shitty mspaint below

image.thumb.png.87a99620ee3f90bc73448143ff88789f.png

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Posted
30 minutes ago, Captainant said:

 

Yeah the landing gear controls are up in front near the glass, and flap controls are down next to the throttle - shitty mspaint below

image.thumb.png.87a99620ee3f90bc73448143ff88789f.png

No chance for a flap misstep with 10 different detents. Gracious. 

Posted
3 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

 

i completely see what he's saying and the observation of the flight seems consistent with that but i just can't get my head around a fucking pilot mistaking the flaps control for the landing gear control. here, i've drawn it out.

1743848.thumb.jpg.6fb0056ef898fa2cf13759b06224b6ec.jpg

 

this is what a landing gear control lever looks like in a 787:

935511578.jpg

 

here is what a flaps control lever looks like in a 787:

8cc5bebcb07b6d8b5e56059cd65b2d8e3ab5f1d3

shit, sorry, didn't jump to page 4 and see that someone already pointed out how insane that would be.

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Posted
7 hours ago, RPM said:

Watched a video of a guy who was on the plane the flight before. There was all kinds of things broken. A/C, in flight entertainment, call button. I heard India is supposed to be very tough on maintenance and security since the 80's but it sounds like this plane wasn't getting any.

THE AC?

You couldn’t get me off a plane full of Indians fast enough with no AC 

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Posted
4 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Good lord. Nobody knows shit. We'll have a pretty definitive cause within two weeks.

look in the mirror db.   you jumped in the middle of the night from a perfectly good plane 

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Posted
1 hour ago, sidis said:

i completely see what he's saying and the observation of the flight seems consistent with that but i just can't get my head around a fucking pilot mistaking the flaps control for the landing gear control. here, i've drawn it out.

 

 

this is what a landing gear control lever looks like in a 787:

 

 

here is what a flaps control lever looks like in a 787:

 

shit, sorry, didn't jump to page 4 and see that someone already pointed out how insane that would be.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting he mistook one for the other. I think the issue would be not really paying attention and just relying on muscle memory. We've seen pilots make these kinds of mistakes bc they were tired, drunk, arguing or dealing with other cockpit distractions. 

Posted

I'm not familiar with this publication, so grain of salt but it seems reputable enough. ATC audio has become available, and they've found one of the two "black boxes" from the aircraft

https://www.firstpost.com/india/no-power-no-thrust-air-india-pilots-5-second-distress-call-to-ahmedabad-atc-emerges-13897097.html

Senior pilot Captain Sumit Sabharwal sent a distress call to the Ahmedabad ATC right after the plane took off. In the five-second audio, the pilot can be heard saying: “MAYDAY… MAYDAY… MAYDAY… NO POWER… NO THRUST… GOING DOWN…"

Posted
21 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

More RAT deployment talk. Seems like a bizzare set of circumstances.  

 

This give some interesting information, but I thought it very telling that if the pilots had not set the flaps correctly, a warning system would’ve alerted them. 

I know nothing about nothing, but I assume there’s a lot of wind resistance and pressure on the flaps as you approach takeoff speed. I also assume that the hydraulic system is what will keep the flaps up as the flaps experience the wind pressure wanting to knock the flaps down.

The gear not continuing to be raised, and the flaps not being engaged properly, seem to indicate a sudden loss of hydraulic and electrical power right at takeoff - which could include simultaneous engine failure.

It sounds like the plane shut down and all the pilot could do is call in and say we’re going down.  Which sounds more like a Boeing problem than a pilot problem.  I would much prefer a pilot problem.

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Posted
36 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

I know nothing about nothing, but I assume there’s a lot of wind resistance and pressure on the flaps as you approach takeoff speed. I also assume that the hydraulic system is what will keep the flaps up as the flaps experience the wind pressure wanting to knock the flaps down.

I also know nothing about nothing, but flaps generally retract into the body of the wing on something like a 787.  They don't just move up and down.  Flaps change the shape of the wing to generate more lift at the cost of more drag.

Many commercial jets use screw jacks to retract and extent the flaps.  Here's a picture of extended flaps with a red box showing the screws that move the flaps, I don't think this is a 787:
main-qimg-aa594a016daaa8a55e669ad84aa481

It's hard to imagine the wind causing the flaps to retract in the case of hydraulic failure ... but I don't know how they design that system to react in the event of a failure, flaps up/down/or stay right where they are.  It's also hard to imagine a pilot mistaking the flap control for the gear control.

My theory of the hour:  The plane lost power right as it took off, and the co-pilot reached for the throttles.  And he grabbed the flap lever by mistake, and in a panic pushed it forward to try to increase thrust.  Something was wrong with the power, the flaps were coming up and lift was dropping, they raised the nose to try to not hit the planet ... and stalled it right in to the ground.  They were panicked in the cabin and didn't get to the point in the checklist where they would have raised the gear, or they did raise it and the plane did not respond.

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Posted
17 minutes ago, Texas Jeff said:

It's hard to imagine the wind causing the flaps to retract in the case of hydraulic failure ... but I don't know how they design that system to react in the event of a failure, flaps up/down/or stay right where they are

My theory of the hour:  The plane lost power right as it took off, and the co-pilot reached for the throttles.  And he grabbed the flap lever by mistake, and in a panic pushed it forward to try to increase thrust.

I should’ve been clearer about all the things I do not know, because I’m probably close to the last person who has any idea how those things work.

Where I keep hanging up is the fact that it would be almost impossible for the flaps not to have been put in the up position upon takeoff due to the warning system.   So if the flaps were up on the takeoff approach, and they did not appear to be in the proper position as the plane was descending before the crash, I’m trying to figure out how in the world those two things could exist together.

The only thing I could come up with in my ignorant brain is some hydraulic failure that fubar’d the flaps from remaining in a state that allows lift.     But I guess if the voice recorder turns out to be correct, and the pilot said they had no thrust, maybe the flap setting would not have made a difference, other than to change the glide angle and how many feet the jet traveled before it crashed.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Texas Jeff said:

I also know nothing about nothing, but flaps generally retract into the body of the wing on something like a 787.  They don't just move up and down.  Flaps change the shape of the wing to generate more lift at the cost of more drag.

Many commercial jets use screw jacks to retract and extent the flaps.  Here's a picture of extended flaps with a red box showing the screws that move the flaps, I don't think this is a 787:
  

It's hard to imagine the wind causing the flaps to retract in the case of hydraulic failure ... but I don't know how they design that system to react in the event of a failure, flaps up/down/or stay right where they are.  It's also hard to imagine a pilot mistaking the flap control for the gear control.

My theory of the hour:  The plane lost power right as it took off, and the co-pilot reached for the throttles.  And he grabbed the flap lever by mistake, and in a panic pushed it forward to try to increase thrust.  Something was wrong with the power, the flaps were coming up and lift was dropping, they raised the nose to try to not hit the planet ... and stalled it right in to the ground.  They were panicked in the cabin and didn't get to the point in the checklist where they would have raised the gear, or they did raise it and the plane did not respond.

I don't think the flaps were retracted.  The flaps on the 787 are difficult to see due to the shape of the wing.

 

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Posted
9 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

I don't think the flaps were retracted.  The flaps on the 787 are difficult to see due to the shape of the wing.

 

The slats can be extended with the flaps retracted. You can’t take off that way, but maybe you could possibly retract them that way on a 787.

The bus has an auto retract feature on takeoff in Flaps 1+S ( Flaps 1+ slats). Not sure what the 787 does.  

Posted
3 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

It sounds like the plane shut down and all the pilot could do is call in and say we’re going down.  Which sounds more like a Boeing problem than a pilot problem.  I would much prefer a pilot problem.

A third and imo, more likely possibility: a maintenance problem. There's been a ton of chatter about India Air's generally poor maintenance standards, and that this airframe in particular had gremlins.

A simultaneous loss of power in both engines is preposterously unlikely without some upstream failure like an interruption in fuel flow, or some other corner case. 

With that said, the 787s have been known lemons for a while. Boeing's production quality has gone into the shitter as they've optimized their business operations for profitablity 

Posted
5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

With that said, the 787s have been known lemons for a while. Boeing's production quality has gone into the shitter as they've optimized their business operations for profitablity 

So - the great enshittening? 

Posted

Not saying this had anything to do with it but it demonstrates that total loss of electrical power has been a thing in the past.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/05/02/Boeing-finds-software-glitch-in-787-that-can-cut-jets-power-in-flight/4271430546448/

Quote

If the Dreamliner isn't powered down regularly, the software can push all four of the plane's main generator control units into "fail safe" mode -- which can cut off the jetliner's entire electrical system, no matter whether it's parked on the tarmac or flying at 35,000 feet over the Pacific Ocean. And such a loss in power could rob pilots of their ability to fly the jet.

If that scenario unfolded, the jet would momentarily resort to battery power and deploy a ram-air turbine -- a fan-like generator that uses outside air, like a windmill, to create a small amount of emergency power.

 

Posted

Makes perfect sense to have a program that destroys you if you fail at routine maintenance.  Way to go, Boeing.  How about a program that would simply prevent engine startup?

Posted
10 hours ago, ClubWhatever said:

Not saying this had anything to do with it but it demonstrates that total loss of electrical power has been a thing in the past.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/05/02/Boeing-finds-software-glitch-in-787-that-can-cut-jets-power-in-flight/4271430546448/

 

Well when's the last time Boeing engineers were responsible for hundreds of civil aviation deaths????

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