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Posted
9 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Perhaps. But there were campers killed in a 1987 flash flood along the Guadalupe that killed campers closer to Comfort and yet here we are. Complacency can be a killer.

These kids were in a bus trying to evacuate from a flood situation. They died while the bus drove them away to a presumed safe location.

Posted
1 hour ago, Chopper said:

Oh...rafael cruises again

 

Well he just got done voting yes on a bill that enriched billionaires and screwed over the poor. He probably needed to unwind.

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Posted
5 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Yeah, good point.  I didn't move to Texas until 1994 and don't recall hearing about the 1987 flash flood before this weekend.  I guess it's a combination of complacency, faded memories, and a "that was a freak weather event" rationale.  

I've lived here my whole life and it's always shocking and inconceivable ... every 5-10 years. true this is on the extreme end but tragic death by flash flood in the hill country (including Austin and San Antonio) is relatively common.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Texas Fight said:

These kids were in a bus trying to evacuate from a flood situation. They died while the bus drove them away to a presumed safe location.

What a strange distinction.....were those kids any less dead? 

Posted

Here's what is annoying about the "well, we didn't know about/forgot about the 1987 flood" argument (BTW @South Austin I'm not referring to you)... had local camp directors and locals in "flash flood alley" not heard about what happened in Wimberley in 2015?  What about the Llano in 2018?   What about this in 2002 (https://cceo.org/flood/flood2002).  Maybe this in 1998? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_1998_Central_Texas_floods).  What about the Guadalupe in 2010?  (https://www.mysanantonio.com/slideshows/news/slideshow/june-9-2010-flooding-slams-the-guadalupe-15399.php)

Can you imagine hearing about those tragic losses and not having two brain cells fire up and say, "hey, maybe we should have some kind of emergency plans for our camp/city/county since so many people hang out by the river?" 

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Posted
24 minutes ago, troph said:

these mother fuckers are covering up repeated negligence in broad daylight blaming the NWS which did its job,

You might have missed the latest about face in which they realized budget cuts might have hampered things, so now they're all in on "NWS was not only adequately staffed but in some cases overstaffed, and did their job".

The hypocrisy is blinding, and I'm aready Stevie Wonder at this point.

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Posted
Just now, jimmyjazz said:

You might have missed the latest about face in which they realized budget cuts might have hampered things, so now they're all in on "NWS was not only adequately staffed but in some cases overstaffed, and did their job".

The hypocrisy is blinding, and I'm aready Stevie Wonder at this point.

for purposes of accurately assigning blame in the hopes change could occur I agree the NWS did it's job and the cuts had no impact ... this time.

now let's talk about Kerr County, local municipalities, state responsibility, camp responsibility, and starte making sure we don't have to deal with this level of gross negligence again. oh wait this is the Great State of Texas...

Michael Jordan Lol GIF

nevermind...

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Which camp?

Pot O Gold Christian 

COMFORT, Texas — On July 17, 1987, along the Guadalupe River near Comfort, Texas, rescuers worked to airlift teenagers trapped in trees after a wall of water washed them away.

It happened when a caravan of buses attempted to escape from a church camp through a low water crossing after an overnight storm.

When their bus stalled, they formed a human chain to try and walk out, only to have a wall of water scatter them into the raging river.

 

Edited by Texas Fight
Posted
1 minute ago, Texas Fight said:

Strange? This camp was obviously not being complacent. 

 

And the kids were in the process of being evacuated at Mystic. The problem IN BOTH CASES Is they didnt get the jump early enough. Dead kids either way. Its a pointless argument, just put me  on ignore, you  seem to have pudding for brains. 

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Posted
Just now, Texas Fight said:

Pot O Gold Christian 

What is your evidence that Camp Mystic was not being complacent?  I'd argue that teenage counselors waking up to chest deep water and in some cases losing their lives while rescuing little kids (some of whom were not rescued) casts a little doubt on that assertion, at least for now.

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Posted
22 hours ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

You know, the billions of dollars Abbott & Co wasted on a few miles of border fence in the middle of nowhere that will have zero impact on immigration sure seems like it might have come in useful to help guard against an event like this.

Or the more than $500M they've given to COTA, so far. COTA, who lies their asses off re: attendance to justify it, and which isn't actually eligible for the subsidy in the first place etc, etc.

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Posted
1 minute ago, Blotto said:

And the kids were in the process of being evacuated at Mystic. The problem IN BOTH CASES Is they didnt get the jump early enough. Dead kids either way. Its a pointless argument, just put me  on ignore, you  seem to have pudding for brains. 

...but too late.  THIS is how it was done right.

It was about 1 a.m. on the Fourth of July when the facilities manager at a central Texas summer camp saw water from the Guadalupe River steadily rising amid a deluge of rain.

Aroldo Barrera notified his boss, who had been monitoring reports of the storms approaching Presbyterian Mo-Ranch Assembly, a recreation destination where an intercultural youth conference had been called off early just hours earlier.

https://www.newsnationnow.com/weather/texas-flooding-camp-evacuations/amp/

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Posted
1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

What is your evidence that Camp Mystic was not being complacent?  I'd argue that teenage counselors waking up to chest deep water and in some cases losing their lives while rescuing little kids (some of whom were not rescued) casts a little doubt on that assertion, at least for now.

I don't think anyone will point to the counselors and find them at fault.  They acted heroically.  Unlike Mo-Ranch, their leadership was not awake earlier and actively monitoring the situation.  They can't claim they had no idea when Mo Ranch clearly knew that things were an issue at 1 AM.

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Posted
4 hours ago, crash_davis said:

People, unfortunately many of them in leadership roles, have LOST THEIR FUCKING MINDS.

even Ana agrees with that lol

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Posted
4 minutes ago, texasdago said:

I don't think anyone will point to the counselors and find them at fault.  They acted heroically.  Unlike Mo-Ranch, their leadership was not awake earlier and actively monitoring the situation.  They can't claim they had no idea when Mo Ranch clearly knew that things were an issue at 1 AM.

How do you know Camp Mystic leadership was not awake at 1am or actively monitoring?
 

Mo ranch isn’t even in the same river as Mystic. Miles apart.

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Posted
6 hours ago, Texas Fight said:

Say what? The amount of effort, money, attention, etc… that went into searching and helping New Orleans during Katrina is unprecedented. Even after the fact.

Heckuva job, Texas Fight. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Texas Fight said:

How do you know Camp Mystic leadership was not awake at 1am or actively monitoring?

BECAUSE THE KIDS WOKE UP WITH AT LEAST 4 FEET OF WATER IN THEIR CABINS (and rising)?  Holy shit, dude.  If the adults WERE awake and actively monitoring and still didn't take steps to evacuate, that's even worse.

I ask again:  what the fuck is your problem?

 

12 minutes ago, texasdago said:

I don't think anyone will point to the counselors and find them at fault.  They acted heroically.  Unlike Mo-Ranch, their leadership was not awake earlier and actively monitoring the situation.  They can't claim they had no idea when Mo Ranch clearly knew that things were an issue at 1 AM.

I hope you didn't misread my post.  I agree.

Edited by jimmyjazz
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Posted
13 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Here's what is annoying about the "well, we didn't know about/forgot about the 1987 flood" argument (BTW @South Austin I'm not referring to you)... had local camp directors and locals in "flash flood alley" not heard about what happened in Wimberley in 2015?  What about the Llano in 2018?   What about this in 2002 (https://cceo.org/flood/flood2002).  Maybe this in 1998? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_1998_Central_Texas_floods).  What about the Guadalupe in 2010?  (https://www.mysanantonio.com/slideshows/news/slideshow/june-9-2010-flooding-slams-the-guadalupe-15399.php)

Can you imagine hearing about those tragic losses and not having two brain cells fire up and say, "hey, maybe we should have some kind of emergency plans for our camp/city/county since so many people hang out by the river?" 

Yeah, all that is fair.  But speaking to a point Texas Fight seemed to suggest, I don't know that it's fair to say the parents fucked up by sending their kids to camp where it was obvious they'd be sleeping in a flood plain.  Even with all that historical data you cite, the parents assumed that the staff at Camp Mystic was equipped to respond to a possible flash flood, and I don't know if that assumption is a parental failure.  

As I mentioned above, I've never before thought to ask what system Camp Champions has in place to respond to possible flash flooding conditions, and it's not like the chances of that area along Lake LBJ flooding are 0%.  Maybe that's naive of me, and I'm sure I'll ask the question before paying the camp fees for next summer if Champions doesn't reach out first.

Along those lines, I wonder if riverfront or lakefront camps in the area will take some kind of hit next summer.  No matter what assurances camps will provide, I can see some folks look at what happened on July 4 and say "nope."

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Posted

Regarding Mo Ranch:  it's probably 10 miles west of Camp Mystic, but on the North Fork.  They likely had less time to react and yet they successfully did so.

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Posted
Just now, South Austin said:

Yeah, all that is fair.  But speaking to a point Texas Fight seemed to suggest, I don't know that it's fair to say the parents fucked up by sending their kids to camp where it was obvious they'd be sleeping in a flood plain.  Even with all that historical data you cite, the parents assumed that the staff at Camp Mystic was equipped to respond to a possible flash flood, and I don't know if that assumption is a parental failure.  

As I mentioned above, I've never before thought to ask what system Camp Champions has in place to respond to possible flash flooding conditions, and it's not like the chances of that area along Lake LBJ flooding are 0%.  Maybe that's naive of me, and I'm sure I'll ask the question before paying the camp fees for next summer if Champions doesn't reach out first.

Along those lines, I wonder if riverfront or lakefront camps in the area will take some kind of hit next summer.  No matter what assurances camps will provide, I can see some folks look at what happened on July 4 and say "nope."

It certainly shouldn't be your or any parent's responsibility. I'm not advocating for that. But somewhere in the chain well-qualified people need to review and approve emergency contingencies, and make sure they're prepped every year.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Texas Fight is arguing so hard against trying to hold anyone accountable that it'd be reasonable to believe he personally dropped the fucking ball here.

I am definitely willing to bet he knows people who are responsible. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Chopper said:

Maybe we'll eventually find out if the camp even had a plan and if so how comprehensive it was. Does the county have a plan? Does the county have a plan for the camps? Does the county know if the camp had an emergency plan? Did they review it with the camp? Did any of them follow a plan? Were they all negligent? I won't hold my breath waiting for answers. 

I understand why nobody wants to blame the parents but if there's nobody else checking what the camp was up to, it was incumbent on them. 

 

The counties plan was for the camps up river to notify the other camps. It's in the large commission meeting that someone posted earlier from a few years ago when they turned down Obama money for a flood alert system that an engineering firm recommended. In terms of liability, I think it's clearly with the county that was warned in writing about this and did nothing and the camp owners who are responsible for the kids.

 

It'll be interesting to see if any openings of the federal level hampered local coordination but it seems like the forecast was there.

Posted

parents were not to blame for sending their kids. I mean in hindsight maybe they should ask about emergency preparedness but to be honest, what do you think the camp would say? yay nah bro, we aren't prepared for rain in july, who the fuck thinks that's a real risk. bitch, we got you covered for heat injury but floods, no way, not a concern no need to plan.

simple diligence questions which is about all you'd expect a parent to ask will always be met with the what you want to hear answer.

this is where legit and proper licensing should come into play.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, troph said:

parents were not to blame for sending their kids. I mean in hindsight maybe they should ask about emergency preparedness but to be honest, what do you think the camp would say? yay nah bro, we aren't prepared for rain in july, who the fuck thinks that's a real risk. bitch, we got you covered for heat injury but floods, no way, not a concern no need to plan.

simple diligence questions which is about all you'd expect a parent to ask will always be met with the what you want to hear answer.

this is where legit and proper licensing should come into play.

I would hope every camp in the country has disaster planning front and center on their brochures going forward but fuck it, letting Jesus take the wheel is much cheaper.

Edited by CooterBrown
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Posted
4 minutes ago, Pasken said:

In terms of liability, I think it's clearly with the county that was warned in writing about this and did nothing and the camp owners who are responsible for the kids.

Going to be hard to get around governmental immunity in order to hold the county liable.

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Posted
6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

There were a not insignificant number of people, whose current political philosophies you can now guess, that said Katrina was God's vengeance on the dirty darkies and den of iniquity that was NO.

One prominent voice who blamed it on the gays was San Antonio’s own John Hagee. 

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Posted
6 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Interesting example because I'm willing to bet half of Americans who have even heard of the DEFCON system think level 5 is worse than level 1. Nothing can be made idiot-proof enough for current America. 

Suspicious Monkey GIF by MOODMAN

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Posted
20 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

the emergency alert coordinator job is empty

was that person terminated?

when the nws issues a biblical flood warning, that title sounds like the person that calls the county commissioner's cell at 114 am and says hey just a heads up you guys got this?

Well, this. Exactly. Getting the forecast right and issuing an alert is just part of the deal. Not having an EAC is huge imho, and iirc according to what's been reported the EACs in at least San Angelo and Austin took the early retirement (forced retirement) 'offered' by the DOGE demons.

Posted
6 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

I would hope every camp in the country has disaster planning front and center on their brochures going forward but fuck it, letting Jesus take the wheel is much cheaper.

I read this while assuming the storm trooper in your avatar comes in rocking after "fuck it, letting Jesus take the wheel is much cheaper." 

Posted
3 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

why must they lie about everything ?

 

this is good actually. I mean they are going to lie about everything, but the only way we have any hope for change is to have blame at the feet of those truly responsible and here's a hint, it wasn't the weather nerds, they did their jobs.

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Posted
31 minutes ago, South Austin said:

I don't know that it's fair to say the parents fucked up by sending their kids to camp where it was obvious they'd be sleeping in a flood plain.  Even with all that historical data you cite, the parents assumed that the staff at Camp Mystic was equipped to respond to a possible flash flood, and I don't know if that assumption is a parental failure.  

I place blame at leadership across the board, not parents or counselors 

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Posted
6 hours ago, Texas Fight said:

Are you imagining that or do you have specific quotes from specific people?

“All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are -- were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know that there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the day of judgment. And I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.”

- Pastor John Hagee

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2008/03/hagee-on-katrina/45516/

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Posted
1 minute ago, texasdago said:

I place blame at leadership across the board, not parents or counselors 

Parents, counselors, and campers are victims in all of this. State and local leadership are the ones responsible for this mass casualty event

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Posted
17 minutes ago, Pasken said:

The counties plan was for the camps up river to notify the other camps. It's in the large commission meeting that someone posted earlier from a few years ago when they turned down Obama money for a flood alert system that an engineering firm recommended. In terms of liability, I think it's clearly with the county that was warned in writing about this and did nothing and the camp owners who are responsible for the kids.

 

It'll be interesting to see if any openings of the federal level hampered local coordination but it seems like the forecast was there.

What about DPS? If there had been women standing in line to get an abortion at 30 days of pregnancy they'd have fucking SWAT out there. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Chopper said:

What about DPS? If there had been women standing in line to get an abortion at 30 days of pregnancy they'd have fucking SWAT out there. 

Throwing tear gas at the flood water won't help anyone so I don't know what DPS can do.

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Posted
19 hours ago, Michael Knight said:

It's the same stupid idiots that complain every time and it's the same stupid idiots that enable them by appeasing them.

Srsly. Stupid shit like this "weather weaponization" idiocy is something we used to only hear from our 11-toed methmouth cousin who lived in the trailer out back. But now, thanks to the internet, these morons get to infect the rest of humanity with their stupidity.

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Posted
15 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

why must they lie about everything ?

 

Lying about everything is how they got there.

well-so-im-done.gif.20a5b9cb93420c39c81cc81fd0b2f03a.gif

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Posted
51 minutes ago, Texas Fight said:

How do you know Camp Mystic leadership was not awake at 1am or actively monitoring?

dude.

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