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SmokeyBear1861

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52 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're a fucking idiot. Wanting less people to die is not supporting Hamas no matter how much you want it to be. Fuck off, troll.

Why does this Tceh tard asshole have carte blanche to launch personal attacks that are aimed to silence discussion from posters he disagrees with. Skipper is no troll you fucking idiot. He has been around since hornfans. Fantana needs to be banned from CR.

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A ceasefire is not an outcome neutral proposition.  A ceasefire now leaves Hamas in the position of achieving quite a bit of what they want and will leave Israel in a position where it is much more difficult to achieve what they want (eliminating Hamas).  You can say you deplore Hamas and what they did, but a refusal to acknowledge that what you’re asking for will help them relative to the party they attacked is exactly why there’s a lot of suspicion about real motives.  We saw the same dynamic at play in Ukraine. 
 

You can say you deplore hostage taking and hijacking. If your response to a specific hijacking is to say “well let’s see if they’ll take half of what they asked for and we all go home….” It’s not intellectually honest to pretend like you aren’t proposing a non-neutral solution that benefits the hijackers. 

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1 hour ago, bernorange said:

This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

This community rightly mocks Republican elected officials that routinely support anti-democratic and fascist policies like banning books, overturning elections, and restricting voting rights. These elected officials continue to be supported by Republican voters so it’s safe they’re all pieces of shit since they keep voting for fascists. 

Whatever left leaning groups in America that support Hamas are not elected by Democrats, so it’s disingenuous to say they represent “the left”
 

51 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   You don't just get to start a war by invading another country and intentionally killing women and children civillians point blank and call a time out.  That's not how the world works.    

It’s a little more nuanced than that. I believe Israel has every right to remove Hamas. I also hope they don’t kill any innocent Palestinians. 
 

50 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It’s not the majority by any means, but I have seen quite a few “I support resistance by any means necessary” comments from American leftists.

It’s essential to emphasize the difference between Hamas and Palestine, but you guys gotta know what is being said out there before you flatly deny it.

Well any group that supports resistance “by any means” which has been proven to include setting children on fire is probably also a piece of shit. No one denying there are terrible people in America. They were saying it wasn’t being said on this board 

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4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“If your adversary is committed to doing war crimes, you just have to let them win,” is not a reasonable standard to expect any state to accept. 

Quote me or anyone else saying that. This is a bullshit strawman to do what I described in the post you quoted. Disappointing, my friend.

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Whole thread is worth a read, all the way to the end on West Bank. 
 

Thanks for sharing that. It’s nice to read something rational and balanced - he’s no blanket Israel apologist (see his commentary on the WB).
I hope they Israel takes a measured approach in Gaza (I know they won’t, because Bibi and the worst faction are running things). But a blanket ceasefire in Gaza is a win for Hamas, pure and simple. And, it will invite more death of Israelis and Jews (see calls from Islamic clerics, just today, for worldwide killing of Jews).
Good thread. It won’t matter, because unless you’re for a Palestinian victory “from the river to the sea,” you’re anti-Palestinian and a bloodthirsty warmonger.
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Quote me or anyone else saying that. This is a bullshit strawman to do what I described in the post you quoted. Disappointing, my friend.

Then pose the alternative. What DOES Israel get to do to fight against a foe that just committed and act of genocide and pledges to continue to do so, wherever Jews may live?

I’m serious. I agree, Israel shouldn’t just level Gaza. It shouldn’t have a full blockade of Gaza. But it also shouldn’t go for a ceasefire. It should fight. Deliberately, with precision. But it should not stop it’s war against Hamas until it is satisfied that the threat is sufficiently diminished.
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33 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Quote me or anyone else saying that. This is a bullshit strawman to do what I described in the post you quoted. Disappointing, my friend.

That wasn’t a swipe at you, @RomaVicta, you’re a reasonable poster on this.

I legitimately do not see the way out of the circle here. You don’t want to bomb civilian areas or invade an urban area. I rather doubt Israel wants to, either— they’d much prefer Hamas pick different terrain. 
 

But the enemy gets a vote. Hamas is based in cities. Hamas has elected to pursue a strategy of maximizing civilian casualties in any conflict.  
 

What’s the way out of this if the goal is to defeat and remove Hamas, which most agree is legitimate: 

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There is no solution that will make everyone happy. 

Hamas is a terrorist organization using civilians and civilian structures as “protection” in order to wage their horrific attacks. 

Israel can either let this happen again by not removing Hamas, or remove Hamas and try to minimize any civilian casualties. It’s pretty obvious they are choosing the latter. I would chose the same if I were Israel. If I was Palestinian, I would argue for civilian support, aid, and relief. 

 

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2 hours ago, Macklemore said:

Why does this Tceh tard asshole have carte blanche to launch personal attacks that are aimed to silence discussion from posters he disagrees with. Skipper is no troll you fucking idiot. He has been around since hornfans. Fantana needs to be banned from CR.

Dawg, you openly fantasize about shooting Mexicans at the border, maybe sit this one out.

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7 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

There is no solution that will make everyone happy. 

Hamas is a terrorist organization using civilians and civilian structures as “protection” in order to wage their horrific attacks. 

Israel can either let this happen again by not removing Hamas, or remove Hamas and try to minimize any civilian casualties. It’s pretty obvious they are choosing the latter. I would chose the same if I were Israel. If I was Palestinian, I would argue for civilian support, aid, and relief. 

 

It's not an unreasonable response by Israel, all things considered. I'm sure that Biden privately argued for as much restraint as possible. I don't like the bombing and all the dead civilians, I don't like how there's a lot of bloodthirsty fervor similar to 9/11, but it certainly could be much worse at least for now.

It's the other stuff that's my real beef with Israel. Like we can argue until we're blue in the face about the realities of life in Gaza, but the situation in the West Bank is entirely unforgivable, for example. Every time I've asked what the excuse for how Palestinians are treated there, where there is no Hamas presence or influence, it's met with crickets or deflection to another topic.

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It's not an unreasonable response by Israel, all things considered. I'm sure that Biden privately argued for as much restraint as possible. I don't like the bombing and all the dead civilians, I don't like how there's a lot of bloodthirsty fervor similar to 9/11, but it certainly could be much worse at least for now.
It's the other stuff that's my real beef with Israel. Like we can argue until we're blue in the face about the realities of life in Gaza, but the situation in the West Bank is entirely unforgivable, for example. Every time I've asked what the excuse for how Palestinians are treated there, where there is no Hamas presence or influence, it's met with crickets or deflection to another topic.

Pretty sure I said that with respect to the WB, Israel is a piece of dick. If I didn’t, mea culpa. They are. A piece of dick, that is.
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I'm sure you did, I just haven't seen much substantive discussion is all.

Well, it’s not the focal point of the immediate war.
Not that there isn’t bullshit happening there RIGHT NOW (Israeli paramilitaries killing Palestinians in land grabs in just the last two weeks), but it’s not as juicy a picture.
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7 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

II don't know what the solutions are in the MidEast, but the United States should not be supporting what Israel is doing. No person is going to look back on this and say, "Yep, the Israeli Army was doing what had to be done by massive bombing and a ground assault on a densely populated urban landscape." 

This is an assault wholly based on emotion, political ambition, and blood lust.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.

We should only be involved in humanitarian assistance and the protection of non-combatants no matter where they are located. Period.

Quote

From @Brisketexan: Then pose the alternative. What DOES Israel get to do to fight against a foe that just committed and act of genocide and pledges to continue to do so, wherever Jews may live?

 

7 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Also, again, my lack of imagination for a solution to these problems is not a reason to blow up Gaza. That is not a solution either. Why does this have to be decided in a day to prevent the slaughter to come?

Some very smart people around here are running on emotion and seemingly cultivating sweet outrage to justify further outrages. 

 

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

That wasn’t a swipe at you, @RomaVicta, you’re a reasonable poster on this.

I legitimately do not see the way out of the circle here. You don’t want to bomb civilian areas or invade an urban area. I rather doubt Israel wants to, either— they’d much prefer Hamas pick different terrain. 
 

But the enemy gets a vote. Hamas is based in cities. Hamas has elected to pursue a strategy of maximizing civilian casualties in any conflict.  
 

What’s the way out of this if the goal is to defeat and remove Hamas, which most agree is legitimate: 

See the above. I fucked up the format of this response.

I'm an American. I think in terms of American interests and reputation. I've been specific about what involvement the US should have.

I oppose the devastation of Gaza. I'm mortified and outraged by the Hamas attack on Israel. The US should only do what I say above. I don't want our name on this shit fire. It's too late, I know, but I'm sick that we rolled up a carrier group and gave a POS like Bebe a big hug for the cameras.

I appreciate the civility of both your posts. This is how discourse should be conducted. 

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That is extremely wrong however, Israel has not done much if anything to ever end a cycle.
Killing children with a dumbass plan is murder, plain and simple. It is butchering innocents.
Things Israel can do to actually end the slaughter is actually putting their army outside Gaza, instead of it going into the WB.

Lies or just ignorance.
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I'm sure your grasp of the world is based in solid experience with war, suffering, and brutality. Or maybe it's just tired posturing by someone just as naive as the illusory Kumbaya singers your tritely describe.
Gloves off. Hard world. Gotta be a man. Gotta slaughter them Palestinians so you can get your vicarious macho on. 
To again paraphrase Henry Rollins:
You say it's a mans world. Well, this man's world is a poorly run carnage fest.
I don't know what the solutions are in the MidEast, but the United States should not be supporting what Israel is doing. No person is going to look back on this and say, "Yep, the Israeli Army was doing what had to be done by massive bombing and a ground assault on a densely populated urban landscape." 
This is an assault wholly based on emotion, political ambition, and blood lust.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.
We should only be involved in humanitarian assistance and the protection of non-combatants no matter where they are located. Period.
My grasp of the world is based on my experience of setting foot on 6 of the 7 continents, visiting 38 different countries, living in 4 of them over a span of 53 years.

What is going in right now in Israel has been ongoing for over a millinea. Peace talks handshakes have done nothing but ensure a short term pause to the slaughter.

Am I a geopolitical expert? No, but neither is anyone else here, so keep hoping for peace, and you'll be disappointed again and again because peace isn't going to happen until one side is completely destroyed.
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5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

There is no solution that will make everyone happy. 

Hamas is a terrorist organization using civilians and civilian structures as “protection” in order to wage their horrific attacks. 

Israel can either let this happen again by not removing Hamas, or remove Hamas and try to minimize any civilian casualties. It’s pretty obvious they are choosing the latter. I would chose the same if I were Israel. If I was Palestinian, I would argue for civilian support, aid, and relief. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's not an unreasonable response by Israel, all things considered. I'm sure that Biden privately argued for as much restraint as possible. I don't like the bombing and all the dead civilians, I don't like how there's a lot of bloodthirsty fervor similar to 9/11, but it certainly could be much worse at least for now.

It's the other stuff that's my real beef with Israel. Like we can argue until we're blue in the face about the realities of life in Gaza, but the situation in the West Bank is entirely unforgivable, for example. Every time I've asked what the excuse for how Palestinians are treated there, where there is no Hamas presence or influence, it's met with crickets or deflection to another topic.

 

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


Pretty sure I said that with respect to the WB, Israel is a piece of dick. If I didn’t, mea culpa. They are. A piece of dick, that is.

Same

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7 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Anyone going to answer the post about what a ceasefire would look like? 

The flip answer is it will look like 2024. There will be no ceasefire anytime soon.

Ultimately, it will look like Israel standing down because it has either achieved its goal or has lost more lives than it can stomach.  

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31 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

They don't I am just trying to see what would the Surl think a ceasefire look like. 

 

Probably gonna have a whole shitload more dead Palestinians before we get anywhere close to one. I don't think either belligerent wants a cease fire due to internal politics, and everyone but the belligerents are horrified by the body count. It's a real shit sandwich. 

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15 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


Well, it’s not the focal point of the immediate war.
Not that there isn’t bullshit happening there RIGHT NOW (Israeli paramilitaries killing Palestinians in land grabs in just the last two weeks), but it’s not as juicy a picture.

You are certainly correct that it is not as big a story but is also as more than a hint of "Now is not the time to talk about gun control" after the latest mass shooting. Again not to justify Hamas's actions even a fraction of a percent, but when is/was there going to be a time when Israeli actions in West Bank are going to be discussed in any internationally significant way?

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10 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

They don't I am just trying to see what would the Surl think a ceasefire look like. 

 

Isreal stands down and continues to take casualties.

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45 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

I take it the initial explosion is setting off secondary explosions from weapon caches, as opposed to multiple bombs being used. Anyone think otherwise?

I think it's the blast of the initial explosion travelling through a system of tunnels and exiting at successive openings.

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You are certainly correct that it is not as big a story but is also as more than a hint of "Now is not the time to talk about gun control" after the latest mass shooting. Again not to justify Hamas's actions even a fraction of a percent, but when is/was there going to be a time when Israeli actions in West Bank are going to be discussed in any internationally significant way?

Oh, I think now is a great time to discuss it, for real. I was just observing why it’s not getting traction; the story and graphics from Gaza at present are much more compelling/will get more press.

This would also be a great time to have an honest conversation about how the Palestinians in the levant are incredibly poor and have lousy living conditions….while their leaders have amassed literally billions of dollars in personal wealth and live lives of luxury in Qatar. Instead of improving the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, they’ve been funneling piles of money, intended to fund basics and infrastructure for the people, to themselves. We won’t be talking about that, either.
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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:


Oh, I think now is a great time to discuss it, for real. I was just observing why it’s not getting traction; the story and graphics from Gaza at present are much more compelling/will get more press.

This would also be a great time to have an honest conversation about how the Palestinians in the levant are incredibly poor and have lousy living conditions….while their leaders have amassed literally billions of dollars in personal wealth and live lives of luxury in Qatar. Instead of improving the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, they’ve been funneling piles of money, intended to fund basics and infrastructure for the people, to themselves. We won’t be talking about that, either.

I agree with your second paragraph 100%, but I disagree with "just observing why it's not getting traction". It wasn't getting traction before the terror attack and ensuing Israeli response. Most of the Western World and most of the Arab world doesn't really give a shit about improving Palestinian lives.

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51 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This would also be a great time to have an honest conversation about how the Palestinians in the levant are incredibly poor and have lousy living conditions….while their leaders have amassed literally billions of dollars in personal wealth and live lives of luxury in Qatar. Instead of improving the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, they’ve been funneling piles of money, intended to fund basics and infrastructure for the people, to themselves. We won’t be talking about that, either.

I mean shit, we don't even talk about that happening here in the south. Sure, our oligarchs and religious zealot leaders don't live in Qatar, but Florida is working to get up to that level of shitty and inhumane

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


Oh, I think now is a great time to discuss it, for real. I was just observing why it’s not getting traction; the story and graphics from Gaza at present are much more compelling/will get more press.

This would also be a great time to have an honest conversation about how the Palestinians in the levant are incredibly poor and have lousy living conditions….while their leaders have amassed literally billions of dollars in personal wealth and live lives of luxury in Qatar. Instead of improving the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, they’ve been funneling piles of money, intended to fund basics and infrastructure for the people, to themselves. We won’t be talking about that, either.

 

2 hours ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I agree with your second paragraph 100%, but I disagree with "just observing why it's not getting traction". It wasn't getting traction before the terror attack and ensuing Israeli response. Most of the Western World and most of the Arab world doesn't really give a shit about improving Palestinian lives.

@Brisketexan Great point, and now is the best time to shine a light on this.

@Serak The Preparer We have to break the cycle.  We need someone (UN, I guess) to use the same Truth and Reconciliation techniques from Rwanda and South Africa to break the cycle of hate.  It will have to happen after Palestinians revoke their anti-Israel charter and have a new government.  If you want peace, work for justice.

This will only happen after every member of Hamas is dead.

 

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14 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

This will only happen after every member of Hamas is dead.

I'm skeptical. It's close to effectively impossible to end terror organizations militarily. You can kill most of them, maybe, but unless you remedy the conditions that caused them to form in the first place, you're not really accomplishing anything. I hope Israel can cripple them without too many more civilian casualties, but I am very skeptical. Wars on Terror don't really work out too well, as we should all well know as Americans.

Once Israel is finished with what they're doing, I'd bet some large amount of money is in the end all it will accomplish is Israel internally turning into a worse police state than it already is (as happened in post-9/11 America), more Palestinians dying, some % of them becoming even more radicalized, and the cycle repeating itself until one or both sides is wiped out.

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1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Aaaaand this sort of thinking is how you sow the seeds of the next cycle of violence

1.  Maybe . . . maybe not (remember that Truth and Reconciliation part).

2. Hamas is a terror organization. It does not represent the Palestinian people.  In fact, they are it's victims in the same way many Russians are Putin's victims and how most Americans would be if Trump were ever to hold office again.  

3. Terrorists might be rehabilitated (like 0.001% chance), but it's quicker and easier to kill them.  Same with ISIS.  Do you recall the atrocities of a few weeks ago?  Or of ISIS burning children in cages?  

If anyone chooses to respond, please cite by number the statement you're responding to.  It will reduce the number of blanket responses.

(Edit:  @Captainant Interesting that you didn't address the other, more lengthy parts of my post and concentrated on one sentence.  Why?  What do you think will or should become of Hamas?)

Edited by Bullneck
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13 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm skeptical. It's close to effectively impossible to end terror organizations militarily. You can kill most of them, maybe, but unless you remedy the conditions that caused them to form in the first place, you're not really accomplishing anything. I hope Israel can cripple them without too many more civilian casualties, but I am very skeptical. Wars on Terror don't really work out too well, as we should all well know as Americans.

Once Israel is finished with what they're doing, I'd bet some large amount of money is in the end all it will accomplish is Israel internally turning into a worse police state than it already is (as happened in post-9/11 America), more Palestinians dying, some % of them becoming even more radicalized, and the cycle repeating itself until one or both sides is wiped out.

So, do you have an answer or course of action in any of that?

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3 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

I take it the initial explosion is setting off secondary explosions from weapon caches, as opposed to multiple bombs being used. Anyone think otherwise?

I watched this again and think it might be both: munitions and tunnel entries set off by one bunker buster. 

 

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3 hours ago, Serak The Preparer said:

When is/was there going to be a time when Israeli actions in West Bank are going to be discussed in any internationally significant way?

Now. Right now would be a very good time. This needs to be done. 

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