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Didn’t see one yet (unless you count the Astros Season Thread).

 

Here’s Gerrit Cole’s response when asked if he ever used Spider Tack:

 

I don’t…I don’t know, I don’t know if, I don’t quite know how to answer that, to be honest. I mean, there are customs and practices that have been passed down from older players to younger players, from the last generation of players to this generation of players. And, you know, I think there are some things that are certainly out of bounds in that regard. And I’ve stood pretty firm in terms of that, in terms of the communication between our peers and what not. And again, like I’ve mentioned earlier, this is important to a lot of people that love the game, including the players in this room, including fans, including teams. If MLB wants to, you know, legislate some more stuff, that’s a conversation that we can have. Because, ultimately, we should all be pulling in the same direction on this.

 

Haven’t seen a denial that bad since Sandusky was asked if he was attracted to children.

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Posted (edited)

Every team in baseball cheats. Film at 11 following a look at Trevor Bauer's reduced spin rate and a documentary on the 1951 New York Giants' technological sign stealing during Willie Mays's rookie of the year season. 

Edited by Huckleberry
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Yeah this is a non story IMO I’m not going to say everybody is doing who knows, but there are a considerable amount. 
 

Now we get to all pretend like nobody knew what was happening and we are all appalled at this revelation 

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26 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Spit balls are no bueno.  No foreign substances on the ball please you fucking cheaters.

Cheating is part of the culture of the sport. There will never not be cheating in Major League baseball.

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7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Spit balls are no bueno.  No foreign substances on the ball please you fucking cheaters.

Not saying you don't know this or deny it.

It's sports. Every sport is a big business. Even small obscure sports that nobody goes to see has cheating in it.  You add that mentality to a billion dollar business and you HAVE to cheat. At least if you want to compete.

It's always so funny to me, in a sport that is America's past time, that people still get upset when a player or manager is caught cheating. Shit, the term "inside baseball" is used to define acceptable levels of cheating. The fact that Signs have to be used at all or that everybody covers their mouth when discussing the next pitch/play/strategy is another sign that cheating is prevalent. 

Baseball is a great game, but it's funny to hear people talk about keeping the sport free of cheating maintaining a level standard. The fields aren't even all the same. Just about all of them are different shapes and sizes. A homerun in this park is only a double in that one or a passed ball is a sure run here but in another town it's too close to home plate and the ball bounces back to the catcher too quickly to score. Some pitching mounds are wider than others. It's a crooked sport. Always has been, always will be.

 

...and for someone that works with attorneys all day, the answer above is...technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.

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3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Cheating is part of the culture of the sport. There will never not be cheating in Major League baseball every sport.

FIFY

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5 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Every team in baseball cheats. Film at 11 following a look at Trevor Bauer's reduced spin rate and a documentary on the 1951 New York Giants' technological sign stealing during Willie Mays's rookie of the year season. 

I was told it was invented by the Astros

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MLB’s crackdown on foreign substances correlates with the league’s study into enhancing the action and pace of the game. The big problem is power pitching and power hitting. Just about every team has 4-5 Nolan Ryan’s and 4-5 Reggie Jackson’s. Pitchers are getting tons of K’s and hitters are working counts and going for homers.

In addition to more relievers and specialists, advanced analytics are steering teams to avoid contact hitting philosophies, advancing runners, and stealing bases. We have less extra base hits and close plays. Overall, less exciting baseball in totality and longer games.

Cheating scandals can also hurt the sport. Get enough bullshit and it can hurt the integrity of the sport. Astros win the World Series not just by spotting a pitcher’s tell, but by illegal use of technology and signaling to the tune of laying off of Clayton Kershaw’s breaking and off-speed stuff on 50 of 51 pitches.

The everybody does it excuse doesn’t hold water.

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10 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

MLB’s crackdown on foreign substances correlates with the league’s study into enhancing the action and pace of the game. The big problem is power pitching and power hitting. Just about every team has 4-5 Nolan Ryan’s and 4-5 Reggie Jackson’s. Pitchers are getting tons of K’s and hitters are working counts and going for homers.

In addition to more relievers and specialists, advanced analytics are steering teams to avoid contact hitting philosophies, advancing runners, and stealing bases. We have less extra base hits and close plays. Overall, less exciting baseball in totality and longer games.

Cheating scandals can also hurt the sport. Get enough bullshit and it can hurt the integrity of the sport. Astros win the World Series not just by spotting a pitcher’s tell, but by illegal use of technology and signaling to the tune of laying off of Clayton Kershaw’s breaking and off-speed stuff on 50 of 51 pitches.

The everybody does it excuse doesn’t hold water.

Cheating in baseball is not a scandal. It is part of the game. It always has been. 

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Cheating in baseball is not a scandal. It is part of the game. It always has been. 

Then there’s no reason for you to further comment on this thread. The depth of your analysis is noted for the record.
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1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:

Then there’s no reason for you to further comment on this thread. The depth of your analysis is noted for the record.

Oh, I'll repeat that take at least four or five times in this thread. I have a reputation to maintain.

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9 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Cheating is part of the culture of the sport. There will never not be cheating in Major League baseball.

Oh, no.  No, no, no.  Every single franchise that's caught doing anything wrong should have its manager and general manager fired.  And ESPN should rake them all over the coals for a minimum of 18 months.  And fans of every other team should berate the living fuck out of any lifelong fan who sticks by a team that's been caught.

At least be consistent.

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It really is an intelligence test to see what gets all hot and bothered about the Astros and singles them out for venom vs who doesn’t. To be mad at the Astros you have to be a dipshit, a moron, or the most naive yokel alive. Everybody cheats. Everybody has always cheated. Nobody is clean. It’s ingrained in the culture in all of the big 3 major sports, but nowhere more than baseball. 
Golf is the only sport where there is a strong bias against cheating, and even there where you can basically get locked and ridiculed and ostracized for your career over anything that might be considered cheating you still have some players doing it (Patrick Reed, Vijay Singh, Gary Player to name a couple). 
They need to get rid of the substance thing not because it’s cheating and cheating is morally wrong in baseball but because it’s tilting the game too much in the favor of pitching and making it less fun to watch. 

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It really is an intelligence test to see what gets all hot and bothered about the Astros and singles them out for venom vs who doesn’t. To be mad at the Astros you have to be a dipshit, a moron, or the most naive yokel alive. Everybody cheats. Everybody has always cheated. Nobody is clean. It’s ingrained in the culture in all of the big 3 major sports, but nowhere more than baseball. 
Golf is the only sport where there is a strong bias against cheating, and even there where you can basically get locked and ridiculed and ostracized for your career over anything that might be considered cheating you still have some players doing it (Patrick Reed, Vijay Singh, Gary Player to name a couple). 
They need to get rid of the substance thing not because it’s cheating and cheating is morally wrong in baseball but because it’s tilting the game too much in the favor of pitching and making it less fun to watch. 

The real-time use of technology and the systemic degree to which the Astros employed it is unprecedented. Everybody doesn’t do what they did. It’s overly cynical to believe otherwise. Or simplistic to lump all rule-breaking in the same ballpark.
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6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You are outing yourself. Go read any article that has ever seriously studied the issue. In the 1920’s they used flags and binocs. One team had a buzzer buried in the third base box. The giants used a telescope and road flares maybe?  The Red Sox used an apple watch and God knows what else. Everyone knows the dodgers and Yankees were cheating. Teams have always used the tech of their time and it’s always been real time. 
You are showing your ass or your ignorance pick one. Neither is a good look and is generally below the standards of this site and more befitting of a first take watcher or sports radio show caller. 

This

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You are outing yourself. Go read any article that has ever seriously studied the issue. In the 1920’s they used flags and binocs. One team had a buzzer buried in the third base box. The giants used a telescope and road flares maybe?  The Red Sox used an apple watch and God knows what else. Everyone knows the dodgers and Yankees were cheating. Teams have always used the tech of their time and it’s always been real time. 
You are showing your ass or your ignorance pick one. Neither is a good look and is generally below the standards of this site and more befitting of a first take watcher or sports radio show caller. 

Below the standards of this site?

All jokes aside, given that we still talk about the 1951 Giants, perhaps it’s not an everyday occurrence and just part of the game. That was 70 years ago.

When’s the last time both the manager and GM got suspended for a year? Is there some conspiracy against the Astros? Why were they singled out? Bad luck?

Perhaps you should worry about your own lack of critical thinking before offering up another homer groupthink take and deflecting your own lack of nuanced thinking. Revealing your own defensiveness about the credibility of your team’s only championship by escalating a current events thread into personal insults about intelligence.

Here’s something we can agree on. The foreign substance issue is widespread beyond the Astros, who probably were on the forefront. And it needs to go to make the game more watchable.
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36 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:


The real-time use of technology and the systemic degree to which the Astros employed it is unprecedented. Everybody doesn’t do what they did. It’s overly cynical to believe otherwise. Or simplistic to lump all rule-breaking in the same ballpark.

That's wrong and stupid. The systemic real-time use of technology to steal signs is documented to have first happened in the year 1900. Go look up Pearce Chiles.

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/september-17-1900-phillies-pearce-chiles-caught-using-technology-to-steal-signs/

As I referenced above, the New York Giants systemically used technology in real time to steal signs in 1951, Willie Mays's rookie season and the year of their absurd late season comeback and eventually Bobby Thomson's home run. 

https://nypost.com/2002/07/29/51-giants-come-clean-admit-to-sign-stealing-scheme/

You don't know what you're talking about, frankly. Teams have had systems to steal signs in real time for over 120 years, and they've used technology whenever they can.

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16 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:


Below the standards of this site?

All jokes aside, given that we still talk about the 1951 Giants, perhaps it’s not an everyday occurrence and just part of the game. That was 70 years ago.

When’s the last time both the manager and GM got suspended for a year? Is there some conspiracy against the Astros? Why were they singled out? Bad luck?

Perhaps you should worry about your own lack of critical thinking before offering up another homer groupthink take and deflecting your own lack of nuanced thinking. Revealing your own defensiveness about the credibility of your team’s only championship by escalating a current events thread into personal insults about intelligence.

Here’s something we can agree on. The foreign substance issue is widespread beyond the Astros, who probably were on the forefront. And it needs to go to make the game more watchable.

Seriously, now you're just making yourself look like more and more of a huge moron with every post. The Astros were on the forefront of putting shit on the ball to increase movement? That's been going on since before the Astros existed and everyone knows it.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:


The real-time use of technology and the systemic degree to which the Astros employed it is unprecedented. Everybody doesn’t do what they did. It’s overly cynical to believe otherwise. Or simplistic to lump all rule-breaking in the same ballpark.

This is simply not true.

Sign-stealing, with and without technology, is as old as baseball.  The Astros took the fall because MLB and ESPN refused to go after NYY and BOS for literally the same thing.

Pitchers putting substances on the ball is also as old as baseball.  If you're going to get really pissed off about one, you should get really pissed off about the other.   

What you're saying amounts to, "Sure, everybody cheats, but the Astros cheated harder."  And if you believe that, you've been had.

Edited by TexArcher
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Posted (edited)

It is not surprising that a thread started to discuss the illegal use of foreign substances has devolved into yet another bash the Astros conversation. As far as I know, the Astros are not at the forefront of this investigation. The only “source” that implicates the Astros is Tyler Bauer, who seems to be a leading focus of the cheating. 

Edited by TonyTexas
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12 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

MLB’s crackdown on foreign substances correlates with the league’s study into enhancing the action and pace of the game.

So you're saying that these widely-used substances like pine tar and now the super sticky spider tack are just slowing games down and making it less enjoyable for the fans by suppressing the offense? That's the real problem and the main reason for MLB to take action. We certainly can't call it cheating if everyone's doing it, but it has to be addressed because it's making baseball less watchable?

Damn, why does that ring a bell????

1068342336_Screenshot(50).png.b4b90a929dcef630af1c0bc7a9fbc395.png

 

The fact that you're on this thread lecturing about shit like nuance and critical thinking while displaying complete ignorance of the facts and a refusal to acknowledge objectively that this foreign substance issue is the exact same scenario that unfolded three+ years ago. They are the exact same thing.

When MLB implemented instant replay it created a problem of its own making that was universally acknowledged as something many, many teams were doing. There was ample reporting out there with sourced quotes from baseball insiders referencing this new form of sign stealing that was always against the rules but understood as the shit that goes on across the league. Those reports typically focused on watchability and pace of play and not the question of cheating.

“We’ve reached a point,” said one club executive, “where the attractiveness of the sport as an entertainment option has been lost in the quest to find every incremental edge. And video has changed things rapidly. I’m increasingly thinking something has to be done.”

Catchers now have to give multiple signs even with nobody on base—and they have to give signs for what sequence they are using before giving the actual signs for the pitches.

The first thing Manfred should do is order all in-house surveillance cameras eliminated.

“I’m all for that,” said one big league manager. “The big market teams have an advantage there. Now everybody is suspicious—and teams are suspicious because they’re pulling the same tricks they’re worried about the other guy pulling.”


 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:



The everybody does it excuse doesn’t hold water.

So you agree that all the people excusing the use of spider tack but moralizing against the Astros are giant fucking hypocrites?

Edited by Gourmand
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Posted (edited)

Only a twatwaffle on the level of Trevor Bauer would rant and rave about pitchers cheating while doing it himself.  The Astros took the fall because they aren't the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers.  All of who have been implicated in stealing signs.

Edited by kevwun
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13 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

MLB’s crackdown on foreign substances correlates with the league’s study into enhancing the action and pace of the game. The big problem is power pitching and power hitting. Just about every team has 4-5 Nolan Ryan’s and 4-5 Reggie Jackson’s. Pitchers are getting tons of K’s and hitters are working counts and going for homers.

In addition to more relievers and specialists, advanced analytics are steering teams to avoid contact hitting philosophies, advancing runners, and stealing bases. We have less extra base hits and close plays. Overall, less exciting baseball in totality and longer games.

Cheating scandals can also hurt the sport. Get enough bullshit and it can hurt the integrity of the sport. Astros win the World Series not just by spotting a pitcher’s tell, but by illegal use of technology and signaling to the tune of laying off of Clayton Kershaw’s breaking and off-speed stuff on 50 of 51 pitches.

The everybody does it excuse doesn’t hold water.

Stop being such a crybaby - Fluent in 3 months - Language Hacking and  Travel Tips
 

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2 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

The real-time use of technology and the systemic degree to which the Astros employed it is unprecedented.

This is the dumb fucking lie that all the fake puritans (especially fans of the Yankees and Dodgers) tell themselves to make their pee pees hurt less. Put your blinders on and you don't have to acknowledge context and facts. 

If it was unprecedented, why was MLB forced to issue memos? If it was unprecedented, explain the Beltran quote. A future HoF player who's been around the league for decades and knows multiple clubhouses and arrives in Houston and says "lol wtf my dudes you guys are so fucking behind the times with your sign stealing..." BUT yeah, what Houston did was next level shit, unprecedented in its evil, conniving plan to dominate MLB. 

The trash can banging didn't happen in a vacuum, it happened because there was an undeniable continuum of cheating using modern technology that MLB put in place for instant replay purposes. The Yankees and Red Sox were caught cheating, teams like Colorado, Texas, LA Dodgers, Arizona, Chicago Cubs, Washington, and Cleveland were mentioned as well so there was widespread finger-pointing across the league. So much so that MLB sent out those memos. Anyone who engages on this subject without admitting those facts and defaulting to laughable superlatives to describe the Astros cheating is not interested in an actual discussion, they're just interested in bashing the Astros as an excuse for why their teams haven't been as successful. 

The Astros cheating was not smart, saavy, or sophisticated, and it certainly wasn't unprecedented. The precedent was Mike Fiers. 

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So you agree that all the people excusing the use of spider tack but moralizing against the Astros are giant fucking hypocrites?

No because its not that simple. Its clear in the analytics that the Astros were ahead of the curve in enhancing pitcher spin rates when they acquired Gerrit Cole - that they turned a good pitcher into a great one. And people pointed it out immediately. It was Exceptional.

When baseball ignored what was happening, it’s clear that the practice was widespread.

Baseball needs to be more pro-active and Vegas Casino their security up. Baseball is about numbers. In the regular season look for statistical anomalies and in the post-season, lock the shit down with airtight security.
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13 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

Astros win the World Series not just by spotting a pitcher’s tell, but by illegal use of technology and signaling to the tune of laying off of Clayton Kershaw’s breaking and off-speed stuff on 50 of 51 pitches.

I'd like to hear further explanation of this argument. What the fuck does this even mean? I think we're all old enough to remember how Kershaw had an established reputation as a big game choker who traditionally came up small for the Dodgers when they needed it most. Now we're all supposed to ignore all those past failures and focus on some meaningless statistic that's constantly thrown out as slam dunk proof that the only way he could be beaten is if the other team is cheating.

Suuuure. So tell me this.....why is this "swinging strike" shit in gm 5 limited to his breaking pitches? If we're using that stat as proof of cheating, then it follows that the Astros would have just as few swinging strikes on his non-breaking pitches as well. Or could it be that this is just bullshit?

 

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5 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:


No because its not that simple. Its clear in the analytics that the Astros were ahead of the curve in enhancing pitcher spin rates when they acquired Gerrit Cole - that they turned a good pitcher into a great one. And people pointed it out immediately. It was Exceptional.

When baseball ignored what was happening, it’s clear that the practice was widespread.

Baseball needs to be more pro-active and Vegas Casino their security up. Baseball is about numbers. In the regular season look for statistical anomalies and in the post-season, lock the shit down with airtight security.

And then players and teams will find other ways to cheat because that's part of a game that is 150 years old.

 

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OP, please think about changing your title to something like “MLB cracking down on illegal substances” There’s a 1,240 post thread where the sign stealing issue has been discussed ad nauseam. 

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7 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

No because its not that simple.

yes, it is that simple. you want it both ways. 

In a nutshell, it's like this: pine tar/rosin/bullfrog suncreen concoctions are to "what other teams were doing with elec sign stealing" as spider tack is to "banging on trash cans"

In 2017/2018  EVERYONE agreed that many teams were pulling shady shit with the replay monitors and the result was teams constantly changing their signs and making multiple mound visits etc. During that period the narrative was never about cheating--because, like pine tar today--everyone agreed that the playing field was neutralized because it was something everyone else was doing as well. The reporting is all out there but you engage in revisionism to pretend like it was unique to the Houston Astros. If it was really about cheating, why wasn't it talked about in those terms? Why was it always about pace of play and mound visits and what MLB could do to speed up the game?

It wasn't until three years later after the Astros beat three marquee teams, all similarly accused in the past of illegal sign stealing--that "cheating" became the story. So what happened along the way? Why weren't you calling it out then? Why wasn't the baseball media fixated on "integrity" of competition and the purity of the sport when they knew exactly what was happening? They didn't call it cheating because it was just a widely accepted reality borne out of MLB's instant replay implementation but something had to be done about it because it was slowing down the game. 
 

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Astros fans are the fucking worst. So easily offended over fucking everything and they have no comprehension or understanding of baseball whatsoever. All this talk about cheating being ingrained in the history of baseball even though 95% of you started watching baseball in 2015. You’re the aggy of the MLB and your never ending woe-is-me victimhood mentality embodies everything wrong with this country today. Your team cheated to win a title, your star QB is a rapist, and none of your sports teams are winning a title again. So stay in your hurricane magnet concrete swampland shithole of a city and shut the fuck up. /rant 

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Just now, Helobious said:

Astros fans are the fucking worst. So easily offended over fucking everything and they have no comprehension or understanding of baseball whatsoever. All this talk about cheating being ingrained in the history of baseball even though 95% of you started watching baseball in 2015. You’re the aggy of the MLB and your never ending woe-is-me victimhood mentality embodies everything wrong with this country today. Your team cheated to win a title, your star QB is a rapist, and none of your sports teams are winning a title again. So stay in your hurricane magnet concrete swampland shithole of a city and shut the fuck up. /rant 

The irony is so rich it's gotta be fattening 

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Just now, Helobious said:

Astros fans are the fucking worst. So easily offended over fucking everything and they have no comprehension or understanding of baseball whatsoever. All this talk about cheating being ingrained in the history of baseball even though 95% of you started watching baseball in 2015. You’re the aggy of the MLB and your never ending woe-is-me victimhood mentality embodies everything wrong with this country today. Your team cheated to win a title, your star QB is a rapist, and none of your sports teams are winning a title again. So stay in your hurricane magnet concrete swampland shithole of a city and shut the fuck up. /rant 

Awww look at the butthurt Yankee fan from the Rio Grande Valley, salty as fuck about all the asskicking the Houston Astros have put on his bandwagon team. 

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28 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

Its clear in the analytics that the Astros were ahead of the curve in enhancing pitcher spin rates when they acquired Gerrit Cole - that they turned a good pitcher into a great one. And people pointed it out immediately. It was Exceptional.

spacer.png

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2 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:


Below the standards of this site?

All jokes aside, given that we still talk about the 1951 Giants, perhaps it’s not an everyday occurrence and just part of the game. That was 70 years ago.

When’s the last time both the manager and GM got suspended for a year? Is there some conspiracy against the Astros? Why were they singled out? Bad luck?

Perhaps you should worry about your own lack of critical thinking before offering up another homer groupthink take and deflecting your own lack of nuanced thinking. Revealing your own defensiveness about the credibility of your team’s only championship by escalating a current events thread into personal insults about intelligence.

Here’s something we can agree on. The foreign substance issue is widespread beyond the Astros, who probably were on the forefront. And it needs to go to make the game more watchable.

No I don’t think it’s a conspiracy. The league pooped them bc they were dumb enough to get caught after the Red Sox were caught doing the same shit (twice) and they said- knock it off or we will bring the heat. I have 3 kids. Sometimes they aggravate me- I give them the next one to do this gets hellfire rained down on them and then one of them is dumb enough to cross the line. They get what they get. That doesn’t make them uniquely culpable it makes them uniquely dumbasses to push their luck after a warning. I’m not going to run around forever and act like they are in some way worse than the other two who are doing the same shit earlier in the day before they tried my patience and an ultimatum got put down. 
Have you ever been around any high level baseball players man?  They all cheat and all laugh about it.  I was an assistant GM on a wood bat league team. My best friend is a high D1 head guy. My childhood friend was on the bottom of the dogpile at Miami and then pitched for 3 years in the bigs. Another one I’ve hung out occasionally socially with once upon a time was a backup QB at UT who ended up playing in the bigs for years and years and years. It’s Part of the culture. If you aren’t cheating you aren’t trying. There’s also the code of don’t snitch. The giants weren’t a 1 off it was too big a story to stay silent forever. Everyone does it dude. Everyone. 
And yeah- this site has a lot of smart people on it and is a better audience than the typical first take moron. Be better. Or don’t. I’m through engaging you on this as I absolutely positively know what I know and if you choose to not see it or believe in the tooth fairy that’s your prerogative. 

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4 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Awww look at the butthurt Yankee fan from the Rio Grande Valley, salty as fuck about all the asskicking the Houston Astros have put on his bandwagon team. 

Unless you were one of the 5,000 people at some of the Astros games I went to at Minute Maid from 09-13, you have no room to call anyone else bandwagon.  

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7 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Astros fans are the fucking worst. So easily offended over fucking everything and they have no comprehension or understanding of baseball whatsoever. All this talk about cheating being ingrained in the history of baseball even though 95% of you started watching baseball in 2015. You’re the aggy of the MLB and your never ending woe-is-me victimhood mentality embodies everything wrong with this country today. Your team cheated to win a title, your star QB is a rapist, and none of your sports teams are winning a title again. So stay in your hurricane magnet concrete swampland shithole of a city and shut the fuck up. /rant 

And anyone who knows anything about the history of baseball knows that you are fan of a team with a long and storied history of cheating. 

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