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COVID-19 vaccine discussion


Texas Jeff

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There is a certain segment of society, lets say 30 percent, and that's being generous, that are complete fucking dumbasses.  I mean they lick their fingers after touching their asshole dumbasses.  Some of them post on here because they mistakenly think they are on Texags or TigerDroppings,  Droppings, let that sink in.  Shit.  You know who you are.  Aggies.

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7 hours ago, Liquor and Poker said:

I guess to me this is one of those things that Americans talk out of both sides of their mouth on.  I have an ID badge to get into my office building.  If I am a guest At another building I have to show ID and get verbal approval from the place I am visiting.  

I have to gave matching papers and an ID to get on a plane.  They are reviewed by a government official. 

I have to show papers for the right to drive and that I have insurance any time a police officer demands it. 

I even have to provide ID and have it recorded to buy certain medications. 

Many kids’ schools require parents to provide ID and wear a badge to set foot on campus. 

I feel like I am asked for “my papers” all the time. 

The funny thing is that at that point, there is no discernible difference between the vaccine and a government tracking device. So it seems like the kooks would have been right all along which coincidentally makes everyone else kooks.

Maybe you could get the kooks to go along with the plan if it was tied to a voter ID card so you would need a driver's license and proof of vaccination to get the photo voter ID card. Is that a bridge too far? And who is going to police it, karens or the police? Assuming police and security would be called for noncompliance, what would that look like? Lots of irony here as we would look like the type of country that would inadvertently release a deadly virus through a crappy government research lab. Does that complete the circle?

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34 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

You looking to score points or something sparky?  If so then congratulations Cheesefuckingweasel.  The difference is I give a shit about society.  You and yours can eat horse paste, and not give a shit about society.  But keep telling yourself that you do.  And eat that horse paste and laugh.   I have no problem with that.

Sorry about your cheerios. Piss must taste awful. 

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1 hour ago, midtown said:
2 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:
Yeah, they really are.  Data "some vaxxed people have same level of viral load in nose, but not in throat/lungs, but means they may transmit" then gets screeched as "ZOMG VAXXED JUST AS LIKELY TO GET COVID AND SPREAD COVID". They will spin anything other than "no vaccinated person has a single Covid virus in their system ever" as PROOF they don't work and PROOF that it is reasonable to not get vaxxed.  Hint: it is absolutely unreasonable to not get vaxxed for the VAST majority of the population.

The worst part? The CDC agrees with the antivax on this issue.

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The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, data from this report are insufficient to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, including the Delta variant, during this outbreak. As population-level vaccination coverage increases, vaccinated persons are likely to represent a larger proportion of COVID-19 cases. Second, asymptomatic breakthrough infections might be underrepresented because of detection bias. Third, demographics of cases likely reflect those of attendees at the public gatherings, as events were marketed to adult male participants; further study is underway to identify other population characteristics among cases, such as additional demographic characteristics and underlying health conditions including immunocompromising conditions.*** MA DPH, CDC, and affected jurisdictions are collaborating in this response; MA DPH is conducting additional case investigations, obtaining samples for genomic sequencing, and linking case information with laboratory data and vaccination history. Finally, Ct values obtained with SARS-CoV-2 qualitative RT-PCR diagnostic tests might provide a crude correlation to the amount of virus present in a sample and can also be affected by factors other than viral load.††† Although the assay used in this investigation was not validated to provide quantitative results, there was no significant difference between the Ct values of samples collected from breakthrough cases and the other cases. This might mean that the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 is also similar. However, microbiological studies are required to confirm these findings.

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47 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

It isn't the education - plenty who are educated at the best schools are being complete dumbasses on purpose when it comes to this, and plenty who are not well-educated are being cautious.

Agreed that conspiracy nuts going mainstream is a huge problem, but why is it that?  

I've said this elsewhere, I was into the JFK stuff back in the 90s around the time the Stone movie came out (and I became more interested in the people than the actual conspiracy stuff).  There was some overlap with the UFO crowd and the Illuminati crowd (this was before Alex Jones got going on Austin Public Access).

For the most part, going back to the 90s and earlier, the conspiracy nuts were confined to the back rooms of small bookstores, to various rooms at student unions at college campuses across the US, AM radio, advertisements in the back of shitty local newspapers, etc.

Social media took all of those conspiracy nuts off of public access, AM radio, and out-of-site book store backrooms and it put them front and center, where their message could be heard by the millions, instead of a handful of people who saw a notice posted on a bulletin board in a dorm lounge.  It was reinforced by people who....have a lot of visibility and sway as well.

That's one possibility.  The other could be that there has been an all out assault on the institutions that bind us together since the 1960's, accelerated from the time of the cold war, and hyper accelerated by the internet.  These attacks range from completely fair and necessary to unfair, and come from people of every political stripe and persuasion.  We don't have a single institution with greater than 70% approval in this country (and that's the military), and this has led us with nothing to hang onto in such a scenario as we see before us. Not the church. Not the boy scouts.  Not Congress. Not the white house.  Not the Supreme Court nor the lower court systems, not traditional nuclear family, nor even shit like the rotary club.  And all these organizations have done stuff to step on their own crank. And that all gets publicized now.  

Or you can see what's happening elsewhere in places throughout Europe and just say people are stupid.  I'm pretty sure that's always been true and is likely always to be true.

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2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That's one possibility.  The other could be that there has been an all out assault on the institutions that bind us together since the 1960's, accelerated from the time of the cold war, and hyper accelerated by the internet.  These attacks range from completely fair and necessary to unfair, and come from people of every political stripe and persuasion.  We don't have a single institution with greater than 70% approval in this country (and that's the military), and this has led us with nothing to hang onto in such a scenario as we see before us. Not the church. Not the boy scouts.  Not Congress. Not the white house.  Not the Supreme Court nor the lower court systems, not traditional nuclear family, nor even shit like the rotary club.  And all these organizations have done stuff to step on their own crank. And that all gets publicized now.  

Or you can see what's happening elsewhere in places throughout Europe and just say people are stupid.  I'm pretty sure that's always been true and is likely always to be true.

Get the vaccine and shut up.  That’s the ask.  Not that hard. 

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5 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That's one possibility.  The other could be that there has been an all out assault on the institutions that bind us together since the 1960's, accelerated from the time of the cold war, and hyper accelerated by the internet.  These attacks range from completely fair and necessary to unfair, and come from people of every political stripe and persuasion.  We don't have a single institution with greater than 70% approval in this country (and that's the military), and this has led us with nothing to hang onto in such a scenario as we see before us. Not the church. Not the boy scouts.  Not Congress. Not the white house.  Not the Supreme Court nor the lower court systems, not traditional nuclear family, nor even shit like the rotary club.  And all these organizations have done stuff to step on their own crank. And that all gets publicized now.  

Or you can see what's happening elsewhere in places throughout Europe and just say people are stupid.  I'm pretty sure that's always been true and is likely always to be true.

It seems a lot of vaccine hesitancy in this country is bred out of distrust for three main entities. Government, big pharma, mass media. 

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Just now, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Get the vaccine and shut up.  That’s the ask.  Not that hard. 

For like the 100th time- I'm fully vaxxed and have told literally everyone I've ever talked to on the subject that I'm fully vaxxed and said they should get vaxxed. 

I'm literally trying to have a conversation with someone else about why people might not be vaxxed where we explore multiple different theories for why that might be, which is sort of the entire point of a thread titled "Covid 19 Vaccine discussion" and pretty much the reason this thread is 121 pages long as opposed to 3 posts long.

From a practical perspective one could argue that exploring the reasons why people aren't vaxxed is important in trying to craft an argument for why they should get vaxxed but I wouldn't know that at all because I once hit a low bridge with the top of my RV so I'm a moron that you hope dies.  

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2 minutes ago, Muy Frio said:

It seems a lot of vaccine hesitancy in this country is bred out of distrust for three main entities. Government, big pharma, mass media. 

Yet an apparently decent sized group that don’t trust big pharma have no problem taking ivermectin, which was developed by little old Merck 40 years ago. 

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1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Yet an apparently decent sized group that don’t trust big pharma have no problem taking ivermectin, which was developed by little old Merck 40 years ago. 

Yeah, the big pharma kooks are out there.  They'll take all kinds of OTC stuff, and they'll even take shit made for animals (all of it developed and produced by big pharma) but the vaccine is a bridge too far?

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Don’t know if this is the right place, but I’m currently being stalked by some woman at DCHHS.  I was vaxxed in April, caught COVID in June anyway. I had to go to the hospital 10 days ago and was given a COVID test.  I was told it was negative, and that I tested positive for antibodies, which makes sense given that I was positive in June.  I was given a scrip for a z-pack for an acute upper respiratory infection and sent on my way. This lunatic is telling me I tested positive for COVID and wanting to do extensive contact tracing.  I sent her a picture of my paperwork, and she’s still insisting that it’s incorrect.  I’m annoyed.

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7 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

For like the 100th time- I'm fully vaxxed and have told literally everyone I've ever talked to on the subject that I'm fully vaxxed and said they should get vaxxed. 

I'm literally trying to have a conversation with someone else about why people might not be vaxxed where we explore multiple different theories for why that might be, which is sort of the entire point of a thread titled "Covid 19 Vaccine discussion" and pretty much the reason this thread is 121 pages long as opposed to 3 posts long.

From a practical perspective one could argue that exploring the reasons why people aren't vaxxed is important in trying to craft an argument for why they should get vaxxed but I wouldn't know that at all because I once hit a low bridge with the top of my RV so I'm a moron that you hope dies.  

At this point, I don't think there are very many people who can still be convinced to get vaccinated.  The stats (at least in CO) prove that out.  Maybe a couple thousand a day are getting their first shots.  People are dug in and they're not going to do it unless they are forced to do it.

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1 minute ago, Chewbacca said:

Yeah, the big pharma kooks are out there.  They'll take all kinds of OTC stuff, and they'll even take shit made for animals (all of it developed and produced by big pharma) but the vaccine is a bridge too far?

Yeah they’d rather pay for big pharma drugs not approved for use agains covid than get a free to them big pharma vaccine. 
 

I don’t know if Merck still makes ivermectin and has a decent market share or if they let generic companies have that market after the patent expired, but those generics are usually big corporate behemoths as well even if they don’t have an R&D side for new drug dev. 

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11 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Don’t know if this is the right place, but I’m currently being stalked by some woman at DCHHS.  I was vaxxed in April, caught COVID in June anyway. I had to go to the hospital 10 days ago and was given a COVID test.  I was told it was negative, and that I tested positive for antibodies, which makes sense given that I was positive in June.  I was given a scrip for a z-pack for an acute upper respiratory infection and sent on my way. This lunatic is telling me I tested positive for COVID and wanting to do extensive contact tracing.  I sent her a picture of my paperwork, and she’s still insisting that it’s incorrect.  I’m annoyed.

I’d be careful sending her info. I’m sure a whole new scam segment has popped up with “contact tracers” they get a little info here and there and then use it to open a bunch of CCs in your name 

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Anyone recall my post about fundatrat predicting August 11 as the Delta peak? And it was dismissed? Fingers crossed
Now I’m dismissing you for posting a picture instead of embedding a link
 
Someone else had a link from UT health that said peak in mid October. That seems like a pretty big discrepancy... I'd prefer today, but what's the difference between the two?
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32 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That's one possibility.  The other could be that there has been an all out assault on the institutions that bind us together since the 1960's, accelerated from the time of the cold war, and hyper accelerated by the internet.  These attacks range from completely fair and necessary to unfair, and come from people of every political stripe and persuasion.  We don't have a single institution with greater than 70% approval in this country (and that's the military), and this has led us with nothing to hang onto in such a scenario as we see before us. Not the church. Not the boy scouts.  Not Congress. Not the white house.  Not the Supreme Court nor the lower court systems, not traditional nuclear family, nor even shit like the rotary club.  And all these organizations have done stuff to step on their own crank. And that all gets publicized now.  

Or you can see what's happening elsewhere in places throughout Europe and just say people are stupid.  I'm pretty sure that's always been true and is likely always to be true.

again I invoke one Charles Strong who was wrong about every damn thing except one.

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5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

At this point, I don't think there are very many people who can still be convinced to get vaccinated.  The stats (at least in CO) prove that out.  Maybe a couple thousand a day are getting their first shots.  People are dug in and they're not going to do it unless they are forced to do it.

You might well be right.  The messaging behind this thing has been utter dogshit though from the start, so I don't know that anyone has actually tried.  I'm not sure I'm ready to concede that point. 

Let's say that your every decision you made was fully in the service of trying to get more needles into arms. Let's say that you identified Trump voters as the village idiots who were not taking the vaccine b/c they believed that Covid was all fake news.  Maybe, instead of yelling at them and venting your spleen you could do something like give Trump the medal of freedom for "inventing and creating this vaccine" and have him give a big speech aimed at telling everyone how awesome this vaccine was and how they should all get it. 

Now- I'm not suggesting this is likely to happen, or even that it should happen, it's merely a thought experiment for what we could do if the goal wasn't to be right or wrong or anything other than to stick people with needles.

What if we found out that a bunch of people weren't taking the vaccine b/c they were afraid of being deported. Maybe we need to advertise no papers necessary.  Maybe we should give them a get out of Jail (deportation) one time free card like in Monopoly.  

What if we found out that a bunch of black people weren't taking the vaccine because of Tuskegee.  I have no idea what carrot to overcome that might be- but I'm sure if we sat around and thought about it we could come up with something.

I'm not saying this is the reason that anyone is Vaccine hesitant because to tell you the truth it makes no sense to me and is illogical and I've never gotten a good reason for it from anyone I have ever spoken with about it- so I don't know what the reasons are- this is strictly a thought experiment for how you could go about trying to juice voluntary compliance with this thing by making arguments crafted at people to hit them where they live. 

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1 minute ago, smoky said:

 
Someone else had a link from UT health that said peak in mid October. That seems like a pretty big discrepancy... I'd prefer today, but what's the difference between the two?

The one that newdoc posted had 3 predictive paths- and the October one was for if we kept on like now with no fucks given. With some behavior modification it had it peaking right about now as well.  The conclusion drawn was that not enough people would modify behavior (masks and distancing) so the October peak was the most likely. 
might not be a slam dunk conclusion though of data continues trending well. 

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5 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

I’d be careful sending her info. I’m sure a whole new scam segment has popped up with “contact tracers” they get a little info here and there and then use it to open a bunch of CCs in your name 

I looked up the phone number.  It is DCHHS.

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Yet an apparently decent sized group that don’t trust big pharma have no problem taking ivermectin, which was developed by little old Merck 40 years ago. 
Did my semi annual tour de Texags just now. Holy shit they are dug in, smug as fuck, and righteously dumb. Anyone not in agreement is a libtard. All Anti Vax, anti mask, its all a hoax, but still taking horse paste and smug about that too. "Chin diapers don't work, I'm smerter than all the Doctors around the globe." Fucking the same chicken 18 months later. Hunter Biden!. And Mike Lindell is legit and respected in their eyes whilst they watch his latest symposium of horseshit and incompetence..

I know this board is prone to hyperbole but we also evolve as facts come to light. I mean I sprayed my groceries down with alcohol for a few months. I stopped that and can both laugh at myself and note I was being cautious until more was known.

They can't move on from a position no matter how much evidence comes out. Not even a little.

We are so fucked, there is no reaching these dumb bastards, and they revel in their own stupidity. If they step in dog shit and track it inside, they will find a way to brag on that too.

We used to marginalize idiots, now they self-publish falsehoods and sit around eating this horseshit with a grin.
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1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

It isn't the education - plenty who are educated at the best schools are being complete dumbasses on purpose when it comes to this, and plenty who are not well-educated are being cautious.

The fact that "educated" people are being complete dumbasses is a sign that the education system has failed us, in my opinion.  We do not consistently teach critical thinking at any level of education.  Anything that sounds logical or rational will convince a certain percentage of the public.  The problem with reason and logic is that they are limited by your knowledge base.  If all you can see is flat earth all around you, and you don't know anything else, well by god the earth must be flat.  It just makes sense.  Those who can think critically understand the limits of their knowledge and seek to expand it when necessary, or rely on trusted sources, in order to make a decision.  Those who cannot do this are the ones easily fooled by "common sense" thinking.   I'm a terminal degree holder myself, but I graduated with a ton of functional dumbasses who fall into the latter category.  And of course we all know folks who don't have a formal education but have brilliant minds.  Intelligent people tend to struggle in our education system, sadly.  People who follow rules and have good memories thrive.  This is why I say education has failed.

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12 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You might well be right.  The messaging behind this thing has been utter dogshit though from the start, so I don't know that anyone has actually tried.  I'm not sure I'm ready to concede that point. 

Let's say that your every decision you made was fully in the service of trying to get more needles into arms. Let's say that you identified Trump voters as the village idiots who were not taking the vaccine b/c they believed that Covid was all fake news.  Maybe, instead of yelling at them and venting your spleen you could do something like give Trump the medal of freedom for "inventing and creating this vaccine" and have him give a big speech aimed at telling everyone how awesome this vaccine was and how they should all get it. 

They have studies that show the #1 predicter of whether or not someone is vaccinated is whether or not they voted for Trump.  Sure, there are other reasons out there, some of which you listed, but that's #1.  You ever try and logically get through to a Trumper?  He has even come out and said people should get vaccinated, but he didn't do it until months after he left office.  He did an insurmountable amount of damage while he was still in office, including getting vaxxed in secret.  For these people it's too late.  They would rather die (and many are) than get vaccinated.

 

That's why I say it's time for the stick.  If left to their own devices, this disease is never going to really go away.

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3 hours ago, Captainant said:

what a fucking cushy world you must live in that getting a fucking SHOT IN THE ARM is tyranny in exchange for being released from prison early on probation. Jesus tittyfucking christ, why do all the antivaxxers """people concerned about MUH FREEDUMS""" act like getting the vaccine is some MAJOR LIFE EVENT?

GRUhorn, I know prisons operate different in the motherland, but here in the USA if you're still on probation, you're still subject to restricted rights and freedoms. Don't like it? Don't get the vaccine and stay in jail, ya criminal. Boo fucking hoo.

Hey, I'm not fat enough for my titties to be fucked.

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16 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

It's almost as if a lot of you don't realize that a lot of kids who would irrationally dig their heels in on the dumbest point imaginable just for the sake of keeping it real and asserting their "independence".....never grew out of that. 

Maybe it's just fresh for me because I have 2 teenagers at home.

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35 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

At this point, I don't think there are very many people who can still be convinced to get vaccinated.  The stats (at least in CO) prove that out.  Maybe a couple thousand a day are getting their first shots.  People are dug in and they're not going to do it unless they are forced to do it.

I posted yesterday in a different thread that there has been a significant uptick in first shots in Texas the last 2 weeks.   Like 3X as many as end of June and first couple of weeks in July when demand hit bottom as infections bottomed out.  But it does seem at least some that were hesitant are changing their mind.   Also, if you figure most unvaxed 25-50 year olds that have gotten it recently and been hit hard have a lot of friends and family that are similarly unvaxed, I'm guessing seeing the impact on someone they know might change some minds.   Again, not near enough but better than no progress.

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2 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I posted yesterday in a different thread that there has been a significant uptick in first shots in Texas the last 2 weeks.   Like 3X as many as end of June and first couple of weeks in July when demand hit bottom as infections bottomed out.  But it does seem at least some that were hesitant are changing their mind.   Also, if you figure most unvaxed 25-50 year olds that have gotten it recently and been hit hard have a lot of friends and family that are similarly unvaxed, I'm guessing seeing the impact on someone they know might change some minds.   Again, not near enough but better than no progress.

Shit, I hope you're right.  I'm not optimistic, though.  

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Just now, Chewbacca said:

They have studies that show the #1 predicter of whether or not someone is vaccinated is whether or not they voted for Trump.  Sure, there are other reasons out there, some of which you listed, but that's #1.  You ever try and logically get through to a Trumper?  He has even come out and said people should get vaccinated, but he didn't do it until months after he left office.  He did an insurmountable amount of damage while he was still in office, including getting vaxxed in secret.  For these people it's too late.  They would rather die (and many are) than get vaccinated.

 

That's why I say it's time for the stick.  If left to their own devices, this disease is never going to really go away.

If the stick was likely to be effective and not harmful to our overall system I'd be in favor of it. It's not.  And I don't care what those studies show (until I an actually read one and digest for myself what it says b/c people breathlessly post whatever they want to post without looking into the context or absolute numbers) the fact of the matter is that if vaccination in the minority community is so woefully trailing others Trump isn't the problem there, because those aren't Trump voters.  Like I said earlier- its a large subgroup in every demographic that's vaccine resistant. Solving for one doesn't solve for all.

The one group that is more or less fully vaccinated (at 92%)? The 65-74 year old Boomer. Because people lose the courage of their convictions when facing death. Because they know it's coming for them.  And they don't have time for bullshit or pontificating when it's slicing through them. But trying to get people to do something they want to through coercion when they don't feel that?  It's never really worked for me as a husband, parent or teacher, I can't imagine it will work much better for the government. And if it did that might be a step toward a Hell that's worse than doing nothing at all if the government can effectively wield power like that. One reason I wasn't all that concerned with Trump as president was I didn't figure he'd be able to actively fuck anything up b/c of how slow the government generally moves.  What if we consolidated power to get shit done and turned it over to a competent meglomaniac?  This kind of power going to be something we trust the FDA with?  CDC?  Governors?  President? in the future?

I'd love to see a program tailored to "what might actually be effective?" since we apparently have such a large and diverse cross section of idiots that refuse to take a gift from God at face value.  

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1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I'd love to see a program tailored to "what might actually be effective?" since we apparently have such a large and diverse cross section of idiots that refuse to take a gift from God at face value.  

I've already said what would be effective.  No more airplanes, concerts, movies, restaurants, football games, et al unless you're either vaxxed or have a documented medical reason for not being vaxxed (signed off by an actual MD).  That would get most of them because if there is something they like more than taking horse paste, it's a weekend trip to Cabo, or going to an SEC football game (guess that includes you guys now).

 

And don't run it through those cards, do a system like the EU is doing (CO has one set up as well) where it's a QR code on your phone that gets scanned through an app.  You want effective?  That would be effective.  I seriously doubt the political will exists to do it, though.  Which sucks.  

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18 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

I hope this is accurate.  I'm worried back to school this week and next will change it.

I think the beauty of a prediction like Fundstrat is that I assume they use data points like when school starts and not just as an average by US but these financial algorithms use data points for something like the school start dates for the largest 500 school districts and how many potential vax/unvax between teachers etc.   Their level of detail and money to derive their forecasts is likely unmatched by any other institution.

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3 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

We've given anti vaxx assholes 6 months to do the right thing.  They're not going to do it on their own.  That much we do know.  And I want a fucking normal life back.

Even the most vaxxed nation in the world doesn’t have their “normal life back”. So I don’t know if the return of your normal life is as predicated on that one metric as you think. 
 

https://www.news4jax.com/health/2021/08/11/israel-tightens-coronavirus-restrictions-as-new-cases-surge/

Spoiler

JERUSALEM – Israel’s government on Wednesday advanced a raft of new coronavirus restrictions, including sweeping implementation of a digital vaccine passport and tighter restrictions on mass gatherings, as the country struggles with skyrocketing new infections.

The country that had appeared to put the coronavirus pandemic behind it a few months ago after a world-leading vaccine drive is now re-imposing regulations in a bid to clamp back down on infections. 

The Cabinet gave its approval for the tighter measures — including limitations on people gathering indoors and restricting entry to venues and restaurants to “Green Pass” holders — as new cases of the highly infectious delta variant of the coronavirus surge despite widespread vaccination against COVID-19.

Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said the government would be “giving a booster” to the country’s healthcare system as new coronavirus cases continue a precipitous climb. He said Israel had to prepare for a situation of mass hospitalizations, and was allocating 2.5 billion shekels ($774 million) to help boost capacity at hospitals nationwide.
 

Despite its vaccination campaign, Israel has seen new coronavirus cases rise in recent weeks. The Health Ministry recorded 5,755 new cases on Wednesday, the highest daily figure since February, and serious cases have grown from 19 in mid-June to 400. 

At least 6,580 Israelis have died from coronavirus since the start of the pandemic, according to Health Ministry figures. 

The government had largely lifted coronavirus restrictions by May following its vaccine drive, but with new infections on the rise, has reinstated limitations on assemblies and indoor mask mandates.

Over 58% of the country’s 9.3 million citizens have received two doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. Israel had secured a large supply of the Pfizer vaccines in exchange for trading medical data. Earlier this month Israel starting giving third vaccine doses to immunosuppressed individuals and citizens over the age of 60.

 

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https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072

no surprise here, another case made for a booster

Abstract

BACKGROUND

Despite the high efficacy of the BNT162b2 messenger RNA vaccine against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), rare breakthrough infections have been reported, including infections among health care workers. Data are needed to characterize these infections and define correlates of breakthrough and infectivity.

METHODS

At the largest medical center in Israel, we identified breakthrough infections by performing extensive evaluations of health care workers who were symptomatic (including mild symptoms) or had known infection exposure. These evaluations included epidemiologic investigations, repeat reverse-transcriptase–polymerase-chain-reaction (RT-PCR) assays, antigen-detecting rapid diagnostic testing (Ag-RDT), serologic assays, and genomic sequencing. Correlates of breakthrough infection were assessed in a case–control analysis. We matched patients with breakthrough infection who had antibody titers obtained within a week before SARS-CoV-2 detection (peri-infection period) with four to five uninfected controls and used generalized estimating equations to predict the geometric mean titers among cases and controls and the ratio between the titers in the two groups. We also assessed the correlation between neutralizing antibody titers and N gene cycle threshold (Ct) values with respect to infectivity.

RESULTS

Among 1497 fully vaccinated health care workers for whom RT-PCR data were available, 39 SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infections were documented. Neutralizing antibody titers in case patients during the peri-infection period were lower than those in matched uninfected controls (case-to-control ratio, 0.361; 95% confidence interval, 0.165 to 0.787). Higher peri-infection neutralizing antibody titers were associated with lower infectivity (higher Ct values). Most breakthrough cases were mild or asymptomatic, although 19% had persistent symptoms (>6 weeks). The B.1.1.7 (alpha) variant was found in 85% of samples tested. A total of 74% of case patients had a high viral load (Ct value, <30) at some point during their infection; however, of these patients, only 17 (59%) had a positive result on concurrent Ag-RDT. No secondary infections were documented.

CONCLUSIONS

Among fully vaccinated health care workers, the occurrence of breakthrough infections with SARS-CoV-2 was correlated with neutralizing antibody titers during the peri-infection period. Most breakthrough infections were mild or asymptomatic, although persistent symptoms did occur.

Since its rollout in late 2020 in Israel, the BNT162b2 messenger RNA vaccine (Pfizer–BioNTech) has been highly effective in preventing clinically significant coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).1-3 The vaccine has also been shown to reduce the incidence of asymptomatic infection and the associated infectivity.4,5 However, breakthrough infections have emerged in a small percentage of vaccine recipients, a phenomenon that has been described in other countries and health care institutions.6-8 To date, no correlate of protection from breakthrough infection has been reported.9

At the Sheba Medical Center in Ramat Gan, we conducted a prospective cohort study to assess the effectiveness of the BNT162b2 vaccine among health care workers and to examine possible correlates of protection and infectivity in this population.

 

Methods

STUDY SETTING

Sheba Medical Center is the largest medical center in Israel and is staffed by 12,586 health care workers, including employees, students, and volunteers. From December 19, 2020, to April 28, 2021, a total of 91% of the center personnel received two doses of the BNT162b2 vaccine. This period was followed by a rapid decrease in newly detected cases.4,10 Simultaneously, efforts were extended to identify new cases with the use of daily health questionnaires, a telephone hotline, extensive epidemiologic investigations of exposure events, and contact tracing of infected patients and personnel. Testing for the presence of SARS-CoV-2 by means of reverse-transcriptase–polymerase-chain-reaction (RT-PCR) assay remained readily available for fully vaccinated staff members who were symptomatic or had been exposed to an infected person, regardless of symptoms. Antigen-detecting rapid diagnostic testing (Ag-RDT) was available as an initial screening tool in the personnel clinic in combination with RT-PCR testing. The study was approved by the institutional review board at Sheba Medical Center.

STUDY DESIGN AND POPULATION

On January 20, 2021, we initiated the study among health care workers at Sheba Medical Center, 11 days after the first staff members had received a second dose of the BNT162b2 vaccine. Data were collected for 14 weeks, until April 28. Concurrently, the third and largest Covid-19 pandemic surge emerged in Israel and reached its peak on January 14, 2021, with reports of an average of 8424 daily cases.Cases and Controls in Study Design.

The study goal was to identify every breakthrough infection, including asymptomatic infections, that occurred during the study period among the health care workers at the center. A breakthrough infection was defined as the detection of SARS-CoV-2 on RT-PCR assay performed 11 or more days after receipt of a second dose of BNT162b2 if no explicit exposure or symptoms had been reported during the first 6 days. In this study, we characterized all breakthrough infections among fully vaccinated health care workers and conducted a matched case–control analysis to identify possible correlates of breakthrough infection. For the case–control analysis, we selected control serum samples that had been obtained during a prospective cohort study to analyze vaccine-induced immune responses and dynamics at the Sheba Medical Center.11 (Details regarding the serologic study are provided in the Supplementary Appendix, available with the full text of this article at NEJM.org.) Among the health care workers who had participated in the serologic study, those who had results of neutralizing antibody testing and complete data were eligible as a basis for selecting controls (Figure 1).

For each breakthrough case, we matched samples that had been obtained from four or five uninfected controls according to the following variables: sex, age, the interval between the second dose of BNT162b2 vaccine and serologic testing, and immunosuppression status. We compared neutralizing antibody titers obtained within a week before SARS-CoV-2 detection on RT-PCR testing, including the day of diagnosis (peri-infection period); peak neutralizing antibody titers obtained during the initial postvaccination period; and S-specific IgG antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 obtained at both time points. Breakthrough cases for which serologic samples were not available were excluded from this analysis.

DATA AND SAMPLE COLLECTION

All health care workers with breakthrough infection were immediately contacted, and an epidemiologic investigation was conducted by the hospital Infection Prevention and Control Unit. All health care workers with positive test results were requested to undergo several additional tests, including viral genome sequencing, repeat RT-PCR testing, Ag-RDT, and SARS-CoV-2 serologic testing. Testing for the presence of neutralizing and anti-S IgG antibodies was performed on the day of detection of infection unless the health care worker had participated in the Sheba serologic study,11 and these results were available from the week preceding detection. After recovery from infection, all health care workers were asked to provide a second blood sample for the measurement of N-specific IgG antibodies. In line with hospital protocol for the detection of secondary infections, close in-hospital contacts of infected health care workers were asked to undergo RT-PCR testing 5 days after their last known exposure. Infected persons were also urged to advise their household members and other close community contacts to undergo RT-PCR testing.

Nasopharyngeal swabs were collected by trained personnel, and RT-PCR testing was performed with the use of the Allplex 2019-nCoV assay (Seegene), with findings expressed as the cycle threshold (Ct) for the gene encoding the nucleocapsid protein (N gene). A Ct value of less than 30, which indicated an increased viral load, was used to determine infectivity.12,13 We performed Ag-RDT using the NowCheck COVID-19 Ag test (Bionote).

To identify variants of concern, we performed multiplex real-time one-step RT-PCR assays to detect mutations in the spike (S) protein (E484K, N501Y, and HV69/70). To verify the results of this testing, whole-genome sequencing was performed with the use of the COVIDSeq library preparation kit (Illumina), as described previously.14

We used three different measures to assess antibody-mediated immune responses: serologic testing for S1 IgG antibodies (Beckman Coulter), SARS-CoV-2 pseudovirus neutralization assay,15 and Elecsys Anti-SARS-CoV-2 Immunoassay (Roche) to test for anti-N antigen. We assessed two outcome measures — neutralizing antibodies and IgG antibodies — and obtained titers at two time points: the peri-infection period (within 1 week before infection) and the peak period (within the first month after the second dose of vaccine).

STATISTICAL ANALYSIS

For the case–control analyses, we included data from all breakthrough case patients for whom peri-infection neutralizing antibody titers were available. A case–control ratio of 1:4 or 1:5 was selected to maximize the statistical power of the study. We matched the control samples with the case samples using the algorithm that is described in detail in the text and in Figure S1 in the Supplementary Appendix. On the basis of this algorithm, we first performed case–control matching according to the interval between the second vaccine dose and serologic testing, followed by categorization according to sex, age, and immunosuppression status. If this pool yielded more than five controls, we selected five at random. For a single case patient with immunosuppression, only three of four controls were sex-matched. In an additional subgroup analysis, we excluded three asymptomatic case patients with borderline results (repeat Ct, >35). To further confirm the robustness of our matching criteria, we performed a sensitivity analysis with a different order of covariates in the matching algorithm that used a uniform age criterion and did not match for sex. (Details regarding the sensitivity analysis are provided in the Supplementary Appendix.)

To measure the antibody-mediated immune response, we compared log-transformed antibody titers between cases and matched controls using a generalized estimating equation (GEE) with the group assignment (case or control) used as the predictor. For the analyses of the full cohort and the subgroup that excluded the borderline cases, we report the observed geometric mean titer (GMT) and its 95% confidence interval, the GMT predicted by the GEE model, and the ratio of cases to controls (the GMT of the cases divided by the GMT of the controls).

To assess the correlation between the lowest Ct value and the neutralizing antibody level during the peri-infection period, we applied a linear regression model to estimate the slope of the regression line and its 95% confidence interval. We used the chi-square test or Fisher’s exact test to compare demographic and clinical characteristics of the case patients who were included in the case–control study with those for whom peri-infection results of neutralizing antibody testing were not available.

Results

BREAKTHROUGH INFECTIONS

Among 11,453 fully vaccinated health care workers, 1497 (13.1%) underwent RT-PCR testing during the study period. Of the tested workers, 39 breakthrough cases were detected. More than 38 persons were tested for every positive case that was detected, for a test positivity of 2.6%. Thus, this percentage was much lower than the test positivity rate in Israel at the time, since the ratio between positive results and the extensive number of tests that were administered in our study was much smaller than that in the national population.

Of the 39 breakthrough case patients, 18 (46%) were nursing staff members, 10 (26%) were administration or maintenance workers, 6 (15%) were allied health professionals, and 5 (13%) were physicians. The average age of the 39 infected workers was 42 years, and the majority were women (64%). The median interval from the second vaccine dose to SARS-CoV-2 detection was 39 days (range, 11 to 102). Only one infected person (3%) had immunosuppression. Other coexisting illnesses are detailed in Table S1.

In all 37 case patients for whom data were available regarding the source of infection, the suspected source was an unvaccinated person; in 21 patients (57%), this person was a household member. Among these case patients were two married couples, in which both sets of spouses worked at Sheba Medical Center and had an unvaccinated child who had tested positive for Covid-19 and was assumed to be the source. In 11 of 37 case patients (30%), the suspected source was an unvaccinated fellow health care worker or patient; in 7 of the 11 case patients, the infection was caused by a nosocomial outbreak of the B.1.1.7 (alpha) variant. These 7 patients, who worked in different hospital sectors and wards, were all found to be linked to the same suspected unvaccinated index patient who had been receiving noninvasive positive-pressure ventilation before her infection had been detected.

Of the 39 cases of infection, 27 occurred in workers who were tested solely because of exposure to a person with known SARS-CoV-2 infection. Of all the workers with breakthrough infection, 26 (67%) had mild symptoms at some stage, and none required hospitalization. The remaining 13 workers (33% of all cases) were asymptomatic during the duration of infection; of these workers, 6 were defined as borderline cases, since they had an N gene Ct value of more than 35 on repeat testing.

The most common symptom that was reported was upper respiratory congestion (36% of all cases), followed by myalgia (28%) and loss of smell or taste (28%); fever or rigors were reported in 21% (Table S1). On follow-up questioning, 31% of all infected workers reported having residual symptoms 14 days after their diagnosis. At 6 weeks after their diagnosis, 19% reported having “long Covid-19” symptoms, which included a prolonged loss of smell, persistent cough, fatigue, weakness, dyspnea, or myalgia. Nine workers (23%) took a leave of absence from work beyond the 10 days of required quarantine; of these workers, 4 returned to work within 2 weeks. One worker had not yet returned after 6 weeks.

VERIFICATION TESTING AND SECONDARY INFECTIONS

Repeat RT-PCR assays were performed on samples obtained from most of the infected workers and for all case patients with an initial N gene Ct value of more than 30 to verify that the initial test was not taken too early, before the worker had become infectious. A total of 29 case patients (74%) had a Ct value of less than 30 at some point during their infection. However, of these workers, only 17 (59%) had positive results on a concurrent Ag-RDT. Ten workers (26%) had an N gene Ct value of more than 30 throughout the entire period; 6 of these workers had values of more than 35 and probably had never been infectious.

Of the 33 isolates that were tested for a variant of concern, 28 (85%) were identified as the B.1.1.7 variant, by either multiplex PCR assay or genomic sequencing. At the time of this study, the B.1.1.7 variant was the most widespread variant in Israel and accounted for up to 94.5% of SARS-CoV-2 isolates.1,16 Since the end of the study, the country has had a surge of cases caused by the delta variant, as have many other countries worldwide.

Thorough epidemiologic investigations of data regarding in-hospital contact tracing did not detect any cases of transmission from infected health care workers (secondary infections) among the 39 primary infections. Among the 31 cases for whom data regarding household transmission (including symptoms and RT-PCR results) were available, no secondary infections were detected, including 10 case patients and their 27 household members in whom the health care worker was the only index case patient.

Data regarding postinfection N-specific IgG antibodies were available for 22 of 39 case patients (56%) on days 8 to 72 after the first positive result on RT-PCR assay. Of these workers, 4 (18%) did not have an immune response, as detected by negative results on N-specific IgG antibody testing. Among these 4 workers were 2 who were asymptomatic (Ct values, 32 and 35), 1 who underwent serologic testing only on day 10 after diagnosis, and 1 who had immunosuppression.

CASE–CONTROL ANALYSIS

The results of peri-infection neutralizing antibody tests were available for 22 breakthrough cases. Included in this group were 3 health care workers who had participated in the serologic study and had a test performed in the week preceding detection; in 19 other workers, neutralizing and S-specific IgG antibodies were assessed on detection day. Of these 19 case patients, 12 were asymptomatic at the time of detection. For each case, 4 to 5 controls were matched as described (Fig. S1). In total, 22 breakthrough cases and their 104 matched controls were included in the case–control analysis.

The predicted GMT of peri-infection neutralizing antibody titers was 192.8 (95% confidence interval [CI], 67.6 to 549.8) for cases and 533.7 (95% CI, 408.1 to 698.0) for controls, for a predicted case-to-control ratio of neutralizing antibody titers of 0.361 (95% CI, 0.165 to 0.787) (Table 1 and Figure 2A). In a subgroup analysis in which the borderline cases were excluded, the ratio was 0.353 (95% CI, 0.185 to 0.674). Peri-infection neutralizing antibody titers in the breakthrough cases were associated with higher N gene Ct values (i.e., a lower viral RNA copy number) (slope of regression line, 171.2; 95% CI, 62.9 to 279.4) (Figure 3).

A peak neutralizing antibody titer within the first month after the second vaccine dose was available for only 12 of the breakthrough cases; the GEE predicted peak neutralizing antibody titer was 152.2 (95% CI, 30.5 to 759.3) in 12 cases and 1027.5 (95% CI, 761.6 to 1386.2) in 56 controls, for a ratio of 0.148 (95% CI, 0.040 to 0.548) (Figure 2B). In the subgroup analysis in which borderline cases were excluded, the ratio was 0.114 (95% CI, 0.042 to 0.309).

The observed and predicted GMTs of peri-infection S-specific IgG antibody levels in breakthrough infection cases were lower than that in controls, with a predicted ratio of 0.514 (95% CI, 0.282 to 0.937) (Figure 2C). The observed and predicted peak IgG GMTs in cases were also somewhat lower than those in controls (0.507; 95% CI, 0.260 to 0.989) (Figure 2D).

To assess whether our practice of measuring antibodies on the day of diagnosis created bias by capturing anamnestic responses to the current infection, we plotted peak (first-month) IgG titers against peri-infection titers on the day of diagnosis in 13 case patients for whom both values were available. In all cases, peri-infection titers were lower than the previous peak titers, indicating that the titers that were obtained on the day of diagnosis were probably representative of peri-infection titers (Fig. S2).

Discussion

In this study, we characterized all Covid-19 breakthrough infections among 39 fully vaccinated health care workers during the 4-month period after the second vaccine dose and compared the peri-infection humoral response in these workers with the response in matched controls. We found a low rate of breakthrough infection (0.4%). Among the 39 workers who tested positive for Covid-19, most had few symptoms, yet 19% had long Covid-19 symptoms (>6 weeks).

Most of the infected health care workers had N gene Ct values that suggested they had been infectious at some point. These workers included some who had been asymptomatic and thus who had infections that would not have been detected without the rigorous screening that followed any minor known exposure. This factor suggests that at least in some cases, the vaccine protected against symptomatic disease but not against infection. However, no secondary infections were traced back to any of the breakthrough cases, which supports the inference that these workers were less contagious than unvaccinated persons, as has been reported previously.4,5,17,18 Mandated isolation after positive results on RT-PCR assay regardless of vaccination status could have contributed to this observation. Most important, we found that low titers of neutralizing antibody and S-specific IgG antibody may serve as markers of breakthrough infection.

Identifying immune correlates of protection (or lack thereof) from SARS-CoV-2 is critical to predicting how the expected antibody decay will affect clinical outcomes, if and when a booster dose will be needed, and whether vaccinated persons are protected. Such capacity for prediction is particularly important for new vaccine development. The assumption that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would correlate with protection from reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 has been supported by studies comparing the incidence of infection between seropositive and seronegative persons.9,19 Recently, Khoury et al.20 and Earle et al.21 determined that the neutralization level is highly predictive of immune protection in comparing population values from vaccine efficacy and immunogenicity trials. Here, we report data on persons in a vaccinated population that support this correlate of protection.

Neutralizing antibody titers are typically not readily available, and a more practical immune correlate of protection is required, such as the anti-S IgG titer. We and others have previously found a significant correlation between neutralizing antibody titers and anti-S or anti–receptor binding domain IgG antibody titers.11,22 In this study, the correlation between levels of neutralizing antibodies and breakthrough infections was stronger than that for IgG antibodies.

We found that the difference in the peak titers of neutralizing and IgG antibodies between cases and controls was more strongly associated with the risk of infection than the difference in the peri-infection titers. This finding was consistent with the hypothesis that the neutralizing antibody titer after vaccination is a marker of overall immune response and suggested a possible role for the IgG titer. Thus, a decrease in the titer of either of these antibodies (rather than in the peak titer) may not accurately predict a decrease in protection. Moreover, we found that the peri-infection neutralizing antibody titers correlated with the viral load and thus with the infectivity of breakthrough cases. This result may eventually be even more important, since vaccine-induced immunity has been shown to be greatly protective against clinical disease but somewhat less protective against both infection and infectivity.4 Yet in this relatively small cohort, we could not determine a specific protective titer for either serologic measure that was tested. Furthermore, our cohort included health care workers who were mostly young and healthy, and all breakthrough cases were mild. We have previously reported that 95% of vaccinated health care workers were found to have a neutralizing antibody titer of more than 256 within 2 weeks after the second BNT162b2 vaccine dose.11 However, it remains to be determined whether the decay of serum antibody levels is a good indicator for the timing of booster administration. The degree of protection may depend more on the initial immune response than on the decay of antibody levels, since memory cells are expected to respond to future exposures. Our results suggest that the peak antibody titers also correlated with protection, despite the low number of cases in our study.

We identified the B.1.1.7 variant in 85% of cases, similar to its prevalence in the community.1,16 This finding is in line with reports from California, New York, and Massachusetts23-25 showing that the distribution of variants of concern in breakthrough infections was similar to that in the general unvaccinated population. These findings suggest that breakthrough isolates do not reflect selection pressure toward particular immunity-evading variants. In contrast, reports in which certain variants of concern were more prevalent in breakthrough infections have been published as well.8,16,26 Our study was not designed to address this question regarding variants of concern in breakthrough infections.

Our study has several limitations. First, even though we provide extensive documentation of a cohort of breakthrough infections, the numbers of cases were relatively small. Second, this cohort represents mostly young and healthy persons, and all breakthrough infections were mild and did not require hospitalization. Thus, we could not determine the correlate of protection from severe infection or infection in vulnerable populations of older persons with coexisting illnesses. Third, we may have missed asymptomatic cases despite the intensive effort to test all exposed health care workers, since we did not conduct surveillance testing. Fourth, the controls were not matched according to testing or exposure but only according to the timing of serologic testing in vaccinated, uninfected health care workers. Thus, we could not control for differences in the risk of exposure to Covid-19. This factor may have led to an underestimation of the difference in protection between cases and controls. Finally, in many case patients, the peri-infection antibody titer that was available had been obtained on the day of detection of the infection (which in some cases could have been a few days into the infection period) and therefore was possibly already elevated because of the infection. However, since most cases were detected in the presymptomatic stage, we expect that such contamination of results was minor. Moreover, we found that among the case patients in whom both peri-infection and earlier neutralizing antibody results were available, the majority of titers were lower during the peri-infection period than during the earlier period, which also suggests that this contamination was negligible. If such contamination were substantial, the result would likely be biased toward the null hypothesis of no relationship between antibody titers and breakthrough infection.

In this study, we found that although the BNT162b2 vaccine is extremely effective, rare breakthrough infections carry an infectious potential and create a special challenge, since such infections are often asymptomatic and may pose a risk to vulnerable populations.

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2 minutes ago, Muy Frio said:

Even the most vaxxed nation in the world doesn’t have their “normal life back”. So I don’t know if the return of your normal life is as predicated on that one metric as you think. 
 

https://www.news4jax.com/health/2021/08/11/israel-tightens-coronavirus-restrictions-as-new-cases-surge/

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JERUSALEM – Israel’s government on Wednesday advanced a raft of new coronavirus restrictions, including sweeping implementation of a digital vaccine passport and tighter restrictions on mass gatherings, as the country struggles with skyrocketing new infections.

The country that had appeared to put the coronavirus pandemic behind it a few months ago after a world-leading vaccine drive is now re-imposing regulations in a bid to clamp back down on infections. 

The Cabinet gave its approval for the tighter measures — including limitations on people gathering indoors and restricting entry to venues and restaurants to “Green Pass” holders — as new cases of the highly infectious delta variant of the coronavirus surge despite widespread vaccination against COVID-19.

Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said the government would be “giving a booster” to the country’s healthcare system as new coronavirus cases continue a precipitous climb. He said Israel had to prepare for a situation of mass hospitalizations, and was allocating 2.5 billion shekels ($774 million) to help boost capacity at hospitals nationwide.
 

Despite its vaccination campaign, Israel has seen new coronavirus cases rise in recent weeks. The Health Ministry recorded 5,755 new cases on Wednesday, the highest daily figure since February, and serious cases have grown from 19 in mid-June to 400. 

At least 6,580 Israelis have died from coronavirus since the start of the pandemic, according to Health Ministry figures. 

The government had largely lifted coronavirus restrictions by May following its vaccine drive, but with new infections on the rise, has reinstated limitations on assemblies and indoor mask mandates.

Over 58% of the country’s 9.3 million citizens have received two doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. Israel had secured a large supply of the Pfizer vaccines in exchange for trading medical data. Earlier this month Israel starting giving third vaccine doses to immunosuppressed individuals and citizens over the age of 60.

 

Even Israel is only 64% vaxxed.  That's not enough for herd immunity.  

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My wife and I previously got the J&J back in March (was the only vax they were offering that day).  Obviously since then, i have been looking for information on/possibility of getting Pfeizer or Moderna given the reports of less effectiveness and especially since the Delta variant.  We were shopping in Target today and I decided to go ask the pharmacist.   Was upfront and told her that we previously got J&J but wanted Moderna.  After initially working through the semantics of her response that "well...we are not recommending that J&J folks get another and the CDC is not recommending same" I responded with "yes but the CDC is not prohibiting us getting another, right?"  She asked if we were concerned and were planning on traveling which I said we were since our daughter is a senior and we will be taking college visits (please oh please UT accept her!).  She then agreed we could get the "supplemental" shot (not a "booster").

We both got the Moderna and are also scheduled to go back in a month for a second Moderna shot.  I actually hadn't though about that as I assumed if were able to get a non-J&J shot it would just be one "booster" instead of two new shots  They gave us both new Vax cards also.

Figured this info would be helpful for those similarly in the J&J position.  Good luck!

 

 

TLDR:  HEY YOU OTHER UNFORTUNATE SOULS WHO PREVIOUSLY GOT J&J - YOU CAN GET MODERNA AT TARGET!!!!!!!!

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