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38 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Yes, women working at wide range of low skill positions and careers that make up a lot of the economy are not afforded those benefits, but they also aren't NOT having babies because it will kneecap them from being able to make it to VP or Partner or ELT/C-Suite, etc.

Agreed.  They're not having babies for some other reason.  That's what I was getting at.

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3 hours ago, BeardIP said:

And to the shifting tone of American culture, I've defintely seen it. I haven't worked in or around an organization in probably 5 years who doesn't do 6 months paternity leave, much less maternity leave, and 50-100% reimbursement of IVF, and nobody bats at an eye at people utilizing these benefits. 

I work at a refinery that has really good benefits. I got 3 weeks paternity leave. My wife works for a small (less than 50 employees) company. She got 3 months maternity leave. My wife has also probably reached the ceiling for her ability to be promoted until our kids get older because of the needed flexibility having kids.

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I’ve lived and worked for the last six years in Europe. Nations that have some of the very best maternity and paternity benefits also have some of the lowest birth rates.  We should do that stuff because it’s good for existing moms and babies and not in a bid to boost birth rates.

Birth rates have been declining since I’ve been officially off the market and all the ladies just keep hoping that will change. I don’t blame them for not wanting to settle for less. 

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28 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

I work at a refinery that has really good benefits. I got 3 weeks paternity leave. My wife works for a small (less than 50 employees) company. She got 3 months maternity leave. My wife has also probably reached the ceiling for her ability to be promoted until our kids get older because of the needed flexibility having kids.

Yeah, I'm a government attorney in the socialist republic of California and we all get the minimum required by federal law. Not a day more.

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Do you guys know more than two people who make less than 50k a year ?
 

Our office is predominantly women. The women /couples that are well off all have 2-4 kids average is 3 .The people that make let’s say less than 40 k have kids most are young and have 1-3 . They take off when they have babies most  come back some don’t . They save pto. The single low income earners get housing support / child tax credits . They have family support systems that work well. All seem very happy. The ones with no kids are either young early 20s and not yet ready and the few who don’t and are older which is 1 out of 30 just don’t want them . It’s not 1950, we’re less farm oriented and even less dogmatically religious. Part of the progression of women’s rights in this country is they don’t have to sit at home and have 5 kids ( however one of our family’s does just that) pregnancy rates in our office keep our insurance rates higher than normal.. it’s going to be fine .There are plenty of babies , plus with drones and Ai we won’t need baby’s to fight wars or do mundane things . We got plenty of other problems ……..

PS the family that has 5 they are all girls plenty of baby makers . 

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35 minutes ago, Farmerted said:

The women /couples that are well off all have 2-4 kids average is 3 .The people that make let’s say less than 40 k have kids most are young and have 1-3

Adam Carolla has a kinda funny bit, rich man poor man. Things that rich guys and poor guys have in common. 
 

One of those is definitely, have a lot of kids.
 

Another is having several cars in your driveway. And so on. 

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I remember both my parents and Mrs. CHIEF’s family both told us, “if you wait until you think you can afford kids, you will never have them.” This was about five years into our marriage. Mrs. CHIEF and I had been living in apartments, and were waiting until we could purchase our first home. My parents helped us, and said there is more support if you need it. Her parents did as well. 
Children are expensive, time consuming, and are a bunch of trouble. However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

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7 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I remember both my parents and Mrs. CHIEF’s family both told us, “if you wait until you think you can afford kids, you will never have them.” This was about five years into our marriage. Mrs. CHIEF and I had been living in apartments, and were waiting until we could purchase our first home. My parents helped us, and said there is more support if you need it. Her parents did as well. 
Children are expensive, time consuming, and are a bunch of trouble. However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

1234

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

image.png.b1ef73cc864cdb13d20886f5d446f9d8.png

Sigh. So that's how it is in their family.

j/k

Edited by Mrs Whiggins
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14 hours ago, CHIEF said:

 However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

Dude, wait until you find out about Grandkids. They are gods gift to you for not killing your kids. 

You don't have the day-to-day with and  responsibility and financial commitment; but you can have as much of that as you want. And they are cute, loving and when they misbehave it is the parents job to work that out. 

Disclaimer - my oldest grand is not yet 10, but I can tell that by the time they are teens the while dynamic I describe will change

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15 hours ago, CHIEF said:

I remember both my parents and Mrs. CHIEF’s family both told us, “if you wait until you think you can afford kids, you will never have them.” This was about five years into our marriage. Mrs. CHIEF and I had been living in apartments, and were waiting until we could purchase our first home. My parents helped us, and said there is more support if you need it. Her parents did as well. 
Children are expensive, time consuming, and are a bunch of trouble. However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

I heard that stupid shit too.  From the same people that advised me on a graduate teaching assistants' salary I could afford a $300k home in 2007 and I should get in on this hot real estate market.    

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2 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

Dude, wait until you find out about Grandkids. They are gods gift to you for not killing your kids. 

You don't have the day-to-day with and  responsibility and financial commitment; but you can have as much of that as you want. And they are cute, loving and when they misbehave it is the parents job to work that out. 

Disclaimer - my oldest grand is not yet 10, but I can tell that by the time they are teens the while dynamic I describe will change

Reminds me of this old saw:

If you spoil your kids, you'll raise your grandkids.

If you raise your kids, you'll get to spoil your grandkids.

It's probably actually a great thing that there are people NOT having kids if they think it's even remotely possible they will be selfish, trauma-inducing parents (or absentee) and their kids will be a burden on others (family, society writ large, etc.).

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Posted (edited)

It may just be as simple as more people don't have kids these days because in our connected world people have a greater realization of how challenging raising kids can be.  People gravitate toward the negative in information so they see things across all the various information mediums of the challenge financially, emotionally, time-wise, the responsibility etc, and that resonates a lot more than anybody like me saying while it is and has been those things it has also been extremely rewarding, fulfilling and wouldn't trade it for the world. 

People can easily attach to more concrete notions of "I'm gonna have less money, less time, emotional stress, and more responsibility."  It's harder to attach to the vague notions of "rewarding, fulfilling, etc".    Less money is less money...concrete, factual.  Fulfilling is an idea that varies from person to person.  Are you gonna risk what you are pretty damn certain will be the case (less money) for something you can't be certain of until you get into it (fulfilling)?

I dunno...just spitballing.  

Edited by Surly Bevo
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Why isn't it as simple as seeing why the fertility rate falls once an economy becomes developed?  Ask the question "WHY did people historically have a large number of kids?"

Seems that there were two reasons.  1) Labor.  In agrarian societies, kids are farm labor.  You need them around to keep things rolling along.  And 2) higher mortality rates.  Have 5-6 kids, hoping that 2-3 survive past age 7.

In a developed economy, neither of those factors are in play.  Child mortality is rare, and we don't need kids to milk the cows.  Thus, the only reasons to have kids are PERSONAL ones, tied to self-fulfillment and desire, and broad social values.

TLDR; dropping fertility rates are a feature, not a bug, of developed economies.  It's not much more complicated than that, and applies across cultures.  Maybe we should focus on how to make our economies more functional and resilient with that factor in mind.

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It is not that simple.   Pollution is also causing creating issues with fertility and impacting anogenital distance (which is correlated to fatherhood).   Wage stagnation has created a necessity for many to have dual incomes homes.  Demands from work are increasing with greater access for people to work remotely during their 'off' hours.   Obesity and meat heavy diets impacts sex drive/performance.  

 

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Always love a good 'taint' reference. 

But just to be clear, father stepping out on their families & wives to possibly impregnate a woman whose possible child would likely be raised fatherless is bad?  Do I have that correct, fellas?  

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5 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

But just to be clear, father stepping out on their families & wives to possibly impregnate a woman whose possible child would likely be raised fatherless is bad?  Do I have that correct, fellas?  

I love a good quantity vs. quality debate.

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6 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Always love a good 'taint' reference. 

But just to be clear, father stepping out on their families & wives to possibly impregnate a woman whose possible child would likely be raised fatherless is bad?  Do I have that correct, fellas?  

In most social circles, YES. But Surly requires pics to make a determination.

CHIEF

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4 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Reminds me of this old saw:

If you spoil your kids, you'll raise your grandkids.

If you raise your kids, you'll get to spoil your grandkids.

It's probably actually a great thing that there are people NOT having kids if they think it's even remotely possible they will be selfish, trauma-inducing parents (or absentee) and their kids will be a burden on others (family, society writ large, etc.).

Reminds me of this other Axiom, if you get wisdom from axioms you are a dumbfuck who was probably beaten.  

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2 hours ago, Nivek said:

It is not that simple.   Pollution is also causing creating issues with fertility and impacting anogenital distance (which is correlated to fatherhood).   Wage stagnation has created a necessity for many to have dual incomes homes.  Demands from work are increasing with greater access for people to work remotely during their 'off' hours.   Obesity and meat heavy diets impacts sex drive/performance.  

 

 

wait what?

 

Did he say "anogenital" heh heh heh

 

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6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Why isn't it as simple as seeing why the fertility rate falls once an economy becomes developed?

It's pretty much that simple, according to the book "Empty Planet".
Birth rates decline as women gain access to education and birth control.

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It's pretty much that simple, according to the book "Empty Planet".
Birth rates decline as women gain access to education and birth control.

Well that and you don’t need 7 kids to work the farm as much anymore.
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Just now, tbone_ said:


Well that and you don’t need 7 kids to work the farm as much anymore.

Seriously.  I just think the question isn't "why aren't women having so many kids these days?" as it is "why would a woman want to have so many kids these days?"

Why would a woman want to have 4+ kids?  In developed economies, the only real motivation would be personal and social: I love kids, I love being a mom, I find it incredibly rewarding, etc.  There's no external need or push.  It's almost all internal.  That's just a by-product of a developed economy.

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At 55 and the parent of one kid, what I didn’t realize earlier that I do now is that the more kids you have the better chance you have of one of them showing back up when it’s time to change your diaper.

So there is that. But no one thinks about that at a younger age when you are worried about living your best life.

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1 hour ago, tbone_ said:

At 55 and the parent of one kid, what I didn’t realize earlier that I do now is that the more kids you have the better chance you have of one of them showing back up when it’s time to change your diaper.

So there is that. But no one thinks about that at a younger age when you are worried about living your best life.

So how are you feeling about your odds now that you've placed it all on one bet. Think you'll get your diaper changed?

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I'm 42...43 later this year. I've NEVER wanted kids - I don't like taking care of myself most days!  😁  But have found it rather shocking how many people say how selfish I am for not wanting to procreate.  I make good money, own my house....why NOT get married and add to society?  Because...I don't want to.  Kids know when they're not wanted and I would HATE to put a child in that situation.   Do I want to get married? Yes.  But hard pass on being a mom/stepmother.  Also...you can pre-pay for nursing homes.  Definitely looking into that.

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Driving to work this AM made me wish the Central Texas population would decline a whole fuckin' lot. It shouldn't take 45 minutes to go 6 miles. (In 2010, I could do this same drive in 10-12 minutes.) At this rate, in 2038 the same route will take 3 hours.

 

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Maybe women never wanted to have 5-6 kids (or any at all) but were forced to for labor or societal reasons. When they actually had, you know, agency, they made the decisions they always wanted to make.

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Maybe women never wanted to have 5-6 kids (or any at all) but were forced to for labor or societal reasons. When they actually had, you know, agency, they made the decisions they always wanted to make.

You should remember that the people who claim the loudest to stand for “freedom and liberty” don’t actually mean it. Women having agency is the worst thing to ever happen to humanity, and they very much want to undo it.
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