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NCAA Hoops 2021-22


shadow_operative

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/3/2022 at 5:03 PM, Blotto said:

 

https://butlersports.com/news/2022/4/3/mens-basketball-thad-matta-returns-to-the-sidelines-to-lead-butler-mens-basketball-program.aspx

Somehow I had forgot (or never knew) he coached at Butler for a season before Xavier).

And Sean Miller is back at Xavier. He was Matta’s assistant and took over when Thad left for tOSU. I’m looking forward to the Butler-Xavier games. 

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reminder: when Patterson fired Barnes, the consensus among Texas fans was that Texas was too good for Jay Wright.  easy how quickly people forget. 

edit: take a trip down memory lane and remember what Wright's teams had been up to before he won his first title:

1EAF3A81-4DCD-4BCD-B449-A8010DAC4D22.jpeg.47e1beb36b321347911a1cb76a095199.jpeg

Wright was considered a perennial underachiever in the Tourney, and Texas fans (sadly, myself included) felt that we could/should do better than going after Jay Wright. just a reminder that most of the time, we don't don't know wtf we're talking about. 😂 

 

double edit: same with Dabo Swinney when Mack got canned. we all thought he was beneath Texas. not that he was a realistic replacement, but his name was brought up and then summarily shot down by the UT message board fan base. now we'd all give a pinky or two to have had him be Mack's replacement. just another reminder that predicting how a coach will fare (let's say the top 25% of coaches in each sport) is a fool's errand. it's easy to predict that shitty coaches will be shitty. it's damned hard to determine the ceiling of a good coach. Wright (and Tony Bennett) went from being Rick Barnes to Dean Smith overnight. that's why you've got to stick with your guy once you've got him. 

Edited by shadow_operative
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Really?

I remember it being the opposite—90% of Texas fans/message board fans actually wanted Wright and thought he needed a place like Texas to achieve great things and would be a hand-in-glove type of fit.  But people thought Wright thought less of Texas because of our culture surrounding basketball and how we viewed football first. 

I also remember there never being any indication of Wright and Texas talking as it was all just message board fandom.  

I never got the sense that Texas fans thought we were too good for Wright. 

I did, however, say “absolutely not” to Dabo because of his Jesus pushing. 

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Wright responded to the one-and-done environment by making sure his team was stocked with multi-year players who fit his system. He may have decided that keeping it going with the double-whammy of NIL and transfer portal aren't worth the effort after what he's accomplished. Looks like they're trying to emulate the K-Scheyer plan where you plug in the young assistant and hope the strength of the brand carries on.

(I have to grudgingly admit, Ohio State FB is probably the best example; OU had it until Riley bailed on them)

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28 minutes ago, Bartles said:

Wright responded to the one-and-done environment by making sure his team was stocked with multi-year players who fit his system. He may have decided that keeping it going with the double-whammy of NIL and transfer portal aren't worth the effort after what he's accomplished. Looks like they're trying to emulate the K-Scheyer plan where you plug in the young assistant and hope the strength of the brand carries on.

(I have to grudgingly admit, Ohio State FB is probably the best example; OU had it until Riley bailed on them)

Yeah, college coaching is becoming more of a younger Head Coach's game with NIL and transfer portal -- the job has become more time consuming and more difficult for sustained success especially at most smaller schools.  

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11 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

reminder: when Patterson fired Barnes, the consensus among Texas fans was that Texas was too good for Jay Wright.  easy how quickly people forget. 

edit: take a trip down memory lane and remember what Wright's teams had been up to before he won his first title:

1EAF3A81-4DCD-4BCD-B449-A8010DAC4D22.jpeg.47e1beb36b321347911a1cb76a095199.jpeg

Wright was considered a perennial underachiever in the Tourney, and Texas fans (sadly, myself included) felt that we could/should do better than going after Jay Wright. just a reminder that most of the time, we don't don't know wtf we're talking about. 😂 

 

double edit: same with Dabo Swinney when Mack got canned. we all thought he was beneath Texas. not that he was a realistic replacement, but his name was brought up and then summarily shot down by the UT message board fan base. now we'd all give a pinky or two to have had him be Mack's replacement. just another reminder that predicting how a coach will fare (let's say the top 25% of coaches in each sport) is a fool's errand. it's easy to predict that shitty coaches will be shitty. it's damned hard to determine the ceiling of a good coach. Wright (and Tony Bennett) went from being Rick Barnes to Dean Smith overnight. that's why you've got to stick with your guy once you've got him. 

Ok, Derka, get your shit together. Plenty of people would have jumped for fucking joy if Texas had landed Wright. There were a lot of people who actually didn't think he could be lured away from Villanova. You're painting with a very large brush on the whole "no one wanted Wright at Texas bullshit". Sorry.

Worse, your fucking Swinney take is dead wrong, you should rescind it, and you should feel bad for posting it. Just fucking laughably wrong there. Clemson had already been to 2 Orange Bowls under Swinney and won the one in the same season Brown was shitcanned. They were second fiddle in the ACC behind FSU at the time, and FSU won the fucking title that year or the year before so there was no shame in Clemson's performance. 

All of college football laughed when Swinney was hired full time after replacing Tommy Bowden during the season years earlier. By 2013? Swinney was viewed by damned near everyone as in ascent. 

Texas went after Saban hard. Mack Brown, Joe Jamail, and some big money donors running their mouths early ruined that deal. From there, the choices were reduced to a few options and Strong was chosen. Plenty of fans would have been ecstatic to get Swinney by the end of that bowl season. Come on. 

25 minutes ago, Bartles said:

Wright responded to the one-and-done environment by making sure his team was stocked with multi-year players who fit his system. He may have decided that keeping it going with the double-whammy of NIL and transfer portal aren't worth the effort after what he's accomplished. Looks like they're trying to emulate the K-Scheyer plan where you plug in the young assistant and hope the strength of the brand carries on.

(I have to grudgingly admit, Ohio State FB is probably the best example; OU had it until Riley bailed on them)

Ohio State's amazingly long run of CFB coaching hire success can hardly be attributed to grooming bright assistants and hiring them up. Earl Bruce, I guess, kind of qualifies but not really. Then Luke Fickell was a bust there for a one year emergency fill in. Urban Meyer builds a fucking machine and Day inherited it and has done well. Cooper, Tressel, Meyer - none of those guys fit the assistant grooming narrative. 

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44 minutes ago, Bartles said:

Wright responded to the one-and-done environment by making sure his team was stocked with multi-year players who fit his system. He may have decided that keeping it going with the double-whammy of NIL and transfer portal aren't worth the effort after what he's accomplished. Looks like they're trying to emulate the K-Scheyer plan where you plug in the young assistant and hope the strength of the brand carries on.

(I have to grudgingly admit, Ohio State FB is probably the best example; OU had it until Riley bailed on them)

Yeah, when people were speculating health or a coed, I didn't believe it.  The whole CBB coaching environment has changed with NIL and the portal on top of one and dones.  Adapt and get dirty, die and get fired or walk away with your millions and enjoy your life and kids/grandkids. 

Good for Jay Wright.  

We all know the real reason though - the introduction and adoption of casual dress on the sidelines.   It probably killed him inside.

GQ Jay' Wright's suit game is strong; his players, coaches try to keep pace

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the free agent transfer portal really is the "death knell" for some coaches.  the one and done thing wasn't nearly as big a problem as this.  you could add a one and done to a group of seasoned vets into your program and it might get you a FF or even NC.  now you are rebuilding your roster every year because the Tre Mitchell's and Devin Askew's of the world want 30 minutes a game AND the ball.

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22 hours ago, dcar00 said:

the free agent transfer portal really is the "death knell" for some coaches.  the one and done thing wasn't nearly as big a problem as this.  you could add a one and done to a group of seasoned vets into your program and it might get you a FF or even NC.  now you are rebuilding your roster every year because the Tre Mitchell's and Devin Askew's of the world want 30 minutes a game AND the ball.

For old guys who have put in the time sure, retirement makes sense. I get tired of coaches bitching about these changes and the work it requires. These guys make more in a year than most of us will in a lifetime. I think it’s okay to expect that it’s a hard as shit job. Deal with it and quit your bitching, or retire, or coach at a lower level with lower pay and less difficulties. These changes are the right thing to do, the players are people, not commodities, locking them down and denying them compensation was never going to be sustainable.

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1 hour ago, 'stache said:

For old guys who have put in the time sure, retirement makes sense. I get tired of coaches bitching about these changes and the work it requires. These guys make more in a year than most of us will in a lifetime. I think it’s okay to expect that it’s a hard as shit job. Deal with it and quit your bitching, or retire, or coach at a lower level with lower pay and less difficulties. These changes are the right thing to do, the players are people, not commodities, locking them down and denying them compensation was never going to be sustainable.

okaaaay. where did I say coaches should be bitching. I just said it will be more difficult because your roster can turnover completely.  I think they should get rid of the year sit penalty and you can transfer mid season and play.  why should they be locked down like that?  I can quit my job and go work the next day for someone else. why can't Tre Mitchell?

Devin Askew and Tre Mitchell are commodities, though.

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23 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

okaaaay. where did I say coaches should be bitching. I just said it will be more difficult because your roster can turnover completely.  I think they should get rid of the year sit penalty and you can transfer mid season and play.  why should they be locked down like that?  I can quit my job and go work the next day for someone else. why can't Tre Mitchell?

Devin Askew and Tre Mitchell are commodities, though.

You didn't, I was just adding to the conversation. Players don't have to sit a year for their first transfer through the portal. I'm not sure I agree with midseason transfers. Academics get too complicated and you can't have guys traded in March for tourney runs, or if they did, it would need to be closely governed like in pro sports. There are real jobs out there that don't allow you to quit and move on to a competitor the next day, including pro sports. If you're under contract you can quit but you can't play for another team until you are released from the contract or it expires. 

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4 minutes ago, 'stache said:

You didn't, I was just adding to the conversation. Players don't have to sit a year for their first transfer through the portal. I'm not sure I agree with midseason transfers. Academics get too complicated and you can't have guys traded in March for tourney runs, or if they did, it would need to be closely governed like in pro sports. There are real jobs out there that don't allow you to quit and move on to a competitor the next day, including pro sports. If you're under contract you can quit but you can't play for another team until you are released from the contract or it expires. 

are they signing a non-compete?  are they under a contract?  are we really concerned with academics?  These players are not commodities. they should be able to move freely whenever they want and play whenever and wherever they want.  assuming someone wants them to play.

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20 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

are they signing a non-compete?  are they under a contract?  are we really concerned with academics?  These players are not commodities. they should be able to move freely whenever they want and play whenever and wherever they want.  assuming someone wants them to play.

Yes, they sign a scholarship contract. Not sure if they're worded like non-competes, but pro athletes cannot quit and play for another team while under contract. I'm with you on not being treated like commodities, but this is a rule that applies in the real world to real people, most notably in the closest analogy of pro sports. I do think that sitting out a year should never apply. If you want to play for four different schools over four years, I can't think of a reason they shouldn't be allowed to do so. The difference obviously is that scholarships are year to year and not long term like in the pros.

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2 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Yes, they sign a scholarship contract. Not sure if they're worded like non-competes, but pro athletes cannot quit and play for another team while under contract. I'm with you on not being treated like commodities, but this is a rule that applies in the real world to real people, most notably in the closest analogy of pro sports. I do think that sitting out a year should never apply. If you want to play for four different schools over four years, I can't think of a reason they shouldn't be allowed to do so. The difference obviously is that scholarships are year to year and not long term like in the pros.

that rule doesn't apply to everyone and only applies when you have a non compete(which are mostly unenforceable anyway).  why should it apply to them?  so what if pro sports has it.  that is negotiated through the CBA.  why should your idea of the "limit" be their idea of the "limit" or the coaches idea of the "limit"?

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12 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

that rule doesn't apply to everyone and only applies when you have a non compete(which are mostly unenforceable anyway).  why should it apply to them?  so what if pro sports has it.  that is negotiated through the CBA.  why should your idea of the "limit" be their idea of the "limit" or the coaches idea of the "limit"?

One limitation is that, while we often laugh off the "academic" side of college athletics, there is a basic rule that you at least have to be enrolled, and colleges don't let you enroll mid-semester (there might be exceptions but I doubt there is one for athletes). Maybe someday they'll sever that tie-in and make the sports teams basically semi-pros who use campus facilities with enrollment being optional, but that's not how it's set up now, so that alone would limit mid-semester transfers regardless of contracts or non-competes.

Edited by 'stache
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Seems like 2022-2023 should be the last year for us then.  Someone needs to give OU the money so we can all bail after 2023. 

14-team conference for 2 years will be a mess in all sports.  Just get the fuck out. 

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Sounds more like Howard didn't get his way, and continues to be a bitch about life in general.

Mark Adams' record on the people side is pretty fucking decent, and that's low-balling the hell out of it.

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