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Common vernacular with objectionable origin


TexasHooch

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I had an interesting discussion today. Yesterday, I was in a meeting where I mentioned the possibility of grandfathering in certain employees to a new way of doing something.  Today, a coworker reached out to me to give me the heads-up that the term has a dubious origin.  As much as I am a history and language nut, I had no idea.

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The 15th Amendment, which prohibited racial discrimination in voting, was ratified by the states in 1870. If you know your history, you'll realize that African-Americans were nevertheless kept from voting in large numbers in Southern states for nearly a century more.

Various states created requirements — literacy tests and poll taxes and constitutional quizzes — that were designed to keep blacks from registering to vote. But many poor Southern whites were at risk of also losing their rights because they could not have met such expectations.

"If all these white people are going to be noncitizens along with blacks, the idea is going to lose a lot of support," says James Smethurst, who teaches African-American studies at the University of Massachusetts.

The solution? A half-dozen states passed laws that made men eligible to vote if they had been able to vote before African-Americans were given the franchise (generally, 1867), or if they were the lineal descendants of voters back then.

This was called the grandfather clause.

The person who brought it up wasn't offended by my use of the term, nor were they trying to shame me for using it- it was just a heads up, which I actually appreciated. 

It did, however, bring up a question that's been bouncing around in my head since.  At what point, if any, does the use of a phrase or term transcend and/or replace its origin? I think of other things like "rule of thumb", "sold down the river" or "cake walk".  In our current lexicon, I doubt many even consider what they meant 200 years ago, because they don't mean that now.  But, as we are brought to understand, does it become our responsibility to avoid them, or is there a point in which we should all accept that the original uses have been successfully co opted for much broader and current usage?

 

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Equally as interesting his how some vernacular gets inaccurately retconned into offensive origin, like “rule of thumb” in your example or “picnic” which has been alleged to have racist origins. 
 

It’s always good to reassess and use better words especially when the origin and associations are clear (sell down the river) but I also think it’s best accomplished through gentle reminders and intentional action on our own part and not angry policing of people who don’t know better. 

Edited by 956 Worldwide
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Here's one that I still use periodically (mostly when talking to myself, so that's helpful), which was even the subject of a well-publicized incident at Southwest Airlines: "eenie meanie miney moe."

Now, I grew up in a much less enlightened time and place, and certainly heard people use the N-word in public.  But as for that phrase when picking from several choices, I had ONLY ever known "eenie meanie miney moe, catch a tiger by his toe..."  From the Southwest Airlines story, I found out that the ORIGINAL version was "catch a n-word by his toe."  Which, of course, is shittastically racist.

But here's where I get brainlock: to me, it's just an innocent little rhyme device to make a choice, with zero racism in the words used.  And I'd been using it for decades, it's a habit, and one that, again, had ZERO racism in its wording.  Now that I know the original version and thus the origin of the rhyme....am I behaving insensitively when I spot three cupcakes on the counter and pick with an out loud "eenie meanie miney moe?"  I don't think I am.  But, that said...I do my best to avoid using the rhyme when around others, at least others outside my immediate family.

I don't know....I kind of wish "intent" would play more of a role in how we think of things that people do, both positively and negatively.

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21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Here's one that I still use periodically (mostly when talking to myself, so that's helpful), which was even the subject of a well-publicized incident at Southwest Airlines: "eenie meanie miney moe."

Now, I grew up in a much less enlightened time and place, and certainly heard people use the N-word in public.  But as for that phrase when picking from several choices, I had ONLY ever known "eenie meanie miney moe, catch a tiger by his toe..."  From the Southwest Airlines story, I found out that the ORIGINAL version was "catch a n-word by his toe."  Which, of course, is shittastically racist.

But here's where I get brainlock: to me, it's just an innocent little rhyme device to make a choice, with zero racism in the words used.  And I'd been using it for decades, it's a habit, and one that, again, had ZERO racism in its wording.  Now that I know the original version and thus the origin of the rhyme....am I behaving insensitively when I spot three cupcakes on the counter and pick with an out loud "eenie meanie miney moe?"  I don't think I am.  But, that said...I do my best to avoid using the rhyme when around others, at least others outside my immediate family.

I don't know....I kind of wish "intent" would play more of a role in how we think of things that people do, both positively and negatively.

Eenie meanie miney moe is a particularly interesting one to me because many scholars argue that its actual origins are relatively benign (rooted in Celtic or Welch language). These scholars argue that the english slur usage came waaaay later.  It then morphed into the nursery rhyme that we all know. Ultimately whether something is rooted in racism or polluted by it is largely a distinction without a difference.

I don't know. 956 offers a perfectly reasoned approach that I can totally get behind in principle, but I admit that the thought of having to question or revisit the etymology of every slang phrase I use is exhausting.

 

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Just now, TexasHooch said:

but I admit that the thought of having to question or revisit the etymology of every slang phrase I use is exhausting.

Yeah....and I use a LOT of em.  I mean, "colder than a witches tit" is still okay, right?  Or did I just insult wiccans?  Or just those who have tits?  Or maybe those who are sensitive about not having tits?

Edited by Brisketexan
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Oriental. 22 years ago as I was vociferously ingesting any literature I could about the ME and Islam, I noticed this term used a lot in literature. (Occidental being the West) Both of these terms are so twisted now I just don't use them.

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43 minutes ago, Walser said:

Oriental. 22 years ago as I was vociferously ingesting any literature I could about the ME and Islam, I noticed this term used a lot in literature. (Occidental being the West) Both of these terms are so twisted now I just don't use them.

About two years was once in a seminar for academics being given orientation for a program they were all in and a mathematics professor from West Texas A&M called a colleague “an Oriental whose nationality I’m not sure of.” That place fucking ERUPTED.

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48 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

 

Eenie meanie miney moe is a particularly interesting one to me because many scholars argue that its actual origins are relatively benign (rooted in Celtic or Welch language). These scholars argue that the english slur usage came waaaay later.  It then morphed into the nursery rhyme that we all know. Ultimately whether something is rooted in racism or polluted by it is largely a distinction without a difference.

I don't know. 956 offers a perfectly reasoned approach that I can totally get behind in principle, but I admit that the thought of having to question or revisit the etymology of every slang phrase I use is exhausting.

 

I don’t think getting yourself twisted in knots over this is helpful and it is exhausting. More of a “if you’re made aware of something and it makes sense, just try to drop it and not cling to it.” And don’t police others. It’s just not the biggest battle out there and we can’t be experts in everything. 

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1 hour ago, TexasHooch said:

but I admit that the thought of having to question or revisit the etymology of every slang phrase I use is exhausting.

Yeah, it is exhausting, but there are times where you can find a better word and should either because of the etymology or because, well like referring to the Irish as bog jumpers -  I get tired of explaining why they jump over/through bogs. It's fallen so far out of usage, there's no point in using it.

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I don’t think getting yourself twisted in knots over this is helpful and it is exhausting. More of a “if you’re made aware of something and it makes sense, just try to drop it and not cling to it.” And don’t police others. It’s just not the biggest battle out there and we can’t be experts in everything. 

I had relatives who had a neighbor who used the n-word a lot, and he used it when referring to something being quickly assembled or that was a temporary fix, basically saying it was "n-rigged". I always used jerry-rigged (and thought it was related to jerry cans (gas cans) and that it was some kind of WWII slang brought back), but years later, I kind of began wondering about it, and it turns out that what a lot of people mean is jury-rigged, both of which have nautical origins (jury = makeshift/temporary, rig = rigging) but then jerry can also be used, basically using materials at hand for a temporary fix and not necessarily the proper materials.  Jury-rigged goes back centuries. I kind of wonder if, because I was hearing it in the South, the drawl was fucking it up and I was hearing jerry instead of jury. 

https://www.dictionary.com/e/jury-rigged-vs-jerry-rigged/

With that said, of course people substituted a racial slur in.  I'm not sure where I was going with that, other than I'm glad it was actually a nautical term that dates back centuries.

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I think about all the ignorant Christians who think that "have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" and similar wording etc., means to "dominate" as the word is commonly known today.  Buncha dumbfucks.  

 

 

 

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Primary bedroom repalcing master bedroom is appropriate imo....I  prefer to use the term main bedroom....Mrs JDHorn (no pics) is a realtor.

The phrase "back of the bus" used  needs to be 86'ed , no need for that.

"Black and White procedures", Ive replaced with non-negotiables , in meetings recently. 

Any time someone uses the term "jew them down", I cringe.  I come from the age when Mexicans were called 'beaners'.  I havent heard that in ages, so thats good.

 

 

Edited by jdhorn92
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If people don't want to consider context, then fuck em.

if they just wanna get their feelings hurted, they aren't going to last long anyway.

yeah, be better, but stop it with the eternal emotional injuries, as well.

Grow the fuck up and live life.

and real life steps up this week:  Had a peer fired this week for sending D pics to a newhire female out of college.  That's the shit I will never understand.  "well they've responded positively in the past"  has never been the reasoning, right?

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7 minutes ago, jdhorn92 said:

I come from the age when Mexicans were called 'beaners

Sometime around 2008 or so I was traveling through Duluth, Minnesota and encountered a fairly prominent coffee chain in the area named Beaners.  I was stunned that I was seeing it and quite surprised that was accepted in the area.  Read a few years back they changed the name,  which made sense.

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5 minutes ago, slorch said:

Had a peer fired this week for sending D pics to a newhire female out of college.

I’m of a generation prior to camera phone ubiquity, but I could never imagine an unsolicited dong pic as a winning move when trying to get tobsome naked time with a woman.  But I admittedly have been out of the game a long while. 

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Your_Ears_Hang_Low%3F
 

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Some authors regard these as parody versions of the campfire song,[4] but, according to folklorists such as Ed Cray, the evidence strongly suggests that "Do Your Balls Hang Low?" came first, and that "Do Your Ears Hang Low?" is a sanitized version.[1]

The earliest apparent report of "Do Your Balls Hang Low?" is said to date from about 1900.

 

Lyrics make more sense with balls by quite a bit.

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Funny this thread came up.  I've never said the following out loud because it's not a particularly interesting story out of this context.

I grew up in and around Detroit and my dad's friend group was about 50/50 slav and black. Growing up, I always heard the phrase "no skin off my back" to describe something that was no big deal.

I grew up saying it and still did until a couple years ago, when I was doing some shower thinking and had that holy shit moment, like "oh my god, I can't believe I've been saying this all this time."

Edited by choripan
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I used to use sell down the river.  Never really thought about its origin until someone pointed it out to me.

I always thought that "Oriental" was the PC term until I used it about 15 years ago and a Korean colleague lit me up.  It's like a memo was sent out to everyone but me and it became racist to use it overnight.  Unlike "sell down the river" that term doesn't have some inherent racial origin afaik.

I was on a conference call with a Native tribe and a colleague used the term "circle the wagons".  

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1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Yeah, it is exhausting, but there are times where you can find a better word and should either because of the etymology or because, well like referring to the Irish as bog jumpers -  I get tired of explaining why they jump over/through bogs. It's fallen so far out of usage, there's no point in using it.

I had relatives who had a neighbor who used the n-word a lot, and he used it when referring to something being quickly assembled or that was a temporary fix, basically saying it was "n-rigged". I always used jerry-rigged (and thought it was related to jerry cans (gas cans) and that it was some kind of WWII slang brought back), but years later, I kind of began wondering about it, and it turns out that what a lot of people mean is jury-rigged, both of which have nautical origins (jury = makeshift/temporary, rig = rigging) but then jerry can also be used, basically using materials at hand for a temporary fix and not necessarily the proper materials.  Jury-rigged goes back centuries. I kind of wonder if, because I was hearing it in the South, the drawl was fucking it up and I was hearing jerry instead of jury. 

https://www.dictionary.com/e/jury-rigged-vs-jerry-rigged/

With that said, of course people substituted a racial slur in.  I'm not sure where I was going with that, other than I'm glad it was actually a nautical term that dates back centuries.

I definitely heard Jerry growing up. 

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17 minutes ago, choripan said:

Funny this thread came up.  I've never said the following out loud because it's not a particularly interesting story out of this context.

I grew up in and around Detroit and my dad's friend group was about 50/50 slav and black. Growing up, I always heard the phrase "no skin off my back" to describe something that was no big deal.

I grew up saying it and still did until a couple years ago, when I was doing some shower thinking and had that holy shit moment, like "oh my god, I can't believe I've been saying this all this time."

I have never heard “no skin off my back” but my very Texan dad said “no skin off my nose” all the time. 

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31 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

I always thought that "Oriental" was the PC term until I used it about 15 years ago and a Korean colleague lit me up.  It's like a memo was sent out to everyone but me and it became racist to use it overnight.  

 

 

Oriental isn't offensive to real Asians.  Only Western Asians in just a few countries (USA/Australia) get butt hurt about it. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah....and I use a LOT of em.  I mean, "colder than a witches tit" is still okay, right?  Or did I just insult wiccans?  Or just those who have tits?  Or maybe those who are sensitive about not having tits?

Negative. Virtually all women are freezing all of the time. Witches are women and thus it's an accurate descriptor. Saying "it's colder than a warlock's tit" on the other hand... 

45 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

I was on a conference call with a Native tribe and a colleague used the term "circle the wagons".  

All of us that grew up in the West/Southwest probably have a bunch of those Old West origin words.

I'm working on eliminating "off the reservation" and "off the rez" from my own speech after I caught myself before making a similar gaffe.

Shit's hard. I hadn't realized how often I said them until I started paying attention. 

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When I was at my first job out of college I had an older guy who had been around for a while as a mentor and every now and again he'd come by the cubicle and ask me "How's trick's?" and I didn't really understand it but by the context I could tell it meant "how are you doing/how are things/how is your workload today?"

Well, I used it once years later and had someone pull me aside and tell me that the origin is sexist and awful because it was what pimps would say to other pimps when they saw them in the streets. 

I was grateful that the coaching was done discreetly and they were polite about it.

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I used to say "open the kimono" to mean bring me into the circle of trust and share details and in confidence, but found out a few years ago that was definitely out of favor and racist.

Same thing when I used to "call a spade a spade". I think that one is a little more fuzzy on if it was truly racist in origin but there is enough stuff online that says it is that I just err on not saying it.

All of this reminds me of a conversation I had with my son who was asking me the other day, "hey whatever happened to all the controversy when people tried to cancel The Eyes of Texas for being racist" and I had completely forgot that was such a controversy.

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I was in a meeting probably 3-4 years ago when I talked about someone getting "whipped into shape" in the context of being disciplined.  Never really thought about the term until I noticed one of my clients who happened to be black noticeably react.  I felt terrible and realized in one fell swoop how bad it sounded.  Never used the term again.  

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Years ago, when my boys were in elementary, about 5th and 4th grade, I picked them up from their friend's house. There were about 8 boys throwing a football is the air then everyone would tackle the kid with the ball.

When my boys got in the truck, I asked them "y'all playing smear the queer?"

My kids reaction.

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My oldest has since graduated college and is an officer in the Air Force and the other one is about to graduate from college. It's been years since they were in elementary. My youngest is in middle school and the respect for minorities is now considered "political" and is not being taught to the younger generation.

We are backsliding as a society.

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5 hours ago, Walser said:

Oriental.

But, what if it's the Asian grocery store calling itself that?

I'm serious. Asian has supplanted oriental in my use and it's a little startling to see it still used on a marquee.

Pretty good little independent grocery store in Haltom City has it right in front.

I laughed. Was I supposed to get mad on their behalf? It's not my burden to correct them. 

"Hey! You're supposed to be offended!"

Yeah. No. 

Laugh. 

I don't use language that I know is likely to be offensive to the other person. Well, unless I am trying to be shocking and profane.

But, there's some nuances to all this.

Did anyone else do a double take the first time they heard Hockey Night in Canada referred to as HNIC?

The words we say are so far removed from their origins it's difficult to be upset with their use. Most of the time. They're certainly exceptions.

 

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5 hours ago, TexasHooch said:

What about the master bedroom? Is that a thing too?

 

3 hours ago, jdhorn92 said:

Primary bedroom repalcing master bedroom is appropriate imo....I  prefer to use the term main bedroom....Mrs JDHorn (no pics) is a realtor.

The phrase "back of the bus" used  needs to be 86'ed , no need for that.

"Black and White procedures", Ive replaced with non-negotiables , in meetings recently. 

Any time someone uses the term "jew them down", I cringe.  I come from the age when Mexicans were called 'beaners'.  I havent heard that in ages, so thats good.

 

 

Yep.  I belong to the largest MLS in the country, and our listings no longer show master bedroom.  It's primary now. 

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6 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Yep.  I belong to the largest MLS in the country, and our listings no longer show master bedroom.  It's primary now. 

 

 

We no longer refer to someone "mastering" a sport or similar?  Will the master of your domain Seinfeld episode be canceled?  

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

 

Yep.  I belong to the largest MLS in the country, and our listings no longer show master bedroom.  It's primary now. 

Apropos of nothing except the word "primary", the last few companies I've been with don't designate by using the words "Father and Mother" or "Paternity and Maternity Leave" but rather say Primary Caregiver and Secondary Caregiver. All based in California.

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20 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

It's a thing. Every Saturday. Right there on The TV and the hashtag is HNIC.

Or are you telling me you don't know that acronym in the less than polite version?

No idea about the acronym or Canadian hockey and especially Canadian hockey at night.

You might as well have referenced Finnish Curling at night.

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