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21 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

But it’s not an abstract proposition. That’s my point. It’s really not your fault. You were a product of your environment, upbringing, history, etc.

I was raised in a different environment full of socially conscious lefties. That doesn’t make me better or worse.

Over time my views changed as I became my own person and so did yours. But that process happens to everyone on a different timeline and for different reasons.

Follow that line of thinking and you would be an apologist for most Nazis, as they were simply just a product of their environment. Poor helpless and without agency! They have no choice but to pick the most hateful and damaging narrative because, aw shucks, they're just too busy being business leaders to pay attention to those ugly politics

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  • The “shut up and play sports” crowd is awfully quiet when athletes are jerking off Orange Man.

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    Man, I wrestle with this. It sucks but I remind myself that this is what they want, to shrink America and all of public life down into MAGA or not and to make the “not” section small and sad. MAGA wan

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1 hour ago, safe sex said:

For sure. I gotta scrape my fingernails to the bone trying to find what hope I can rn tho

Amen to that

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1 hour ago, DaysOff said:

  2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:


Jesus. Is that true? I'm an old now, but only 12 at the time. Every problem in the country can be drawn on graph where the lines lead to that guy.

Screenshot_20260111_120226_Google.jpg

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Holy shit, just got into a yelling match with my wife (on my side) and the in laws. Just straight right wing propagandists. They immediately bring up shit that I only vaguely know about from the Fox News thread and such on this site as if it is straight reality.

The only thing that came of it from my super Christian MIL is she claimed Jesus would send the immigrants back instead of housing and feeding them. I told her that was the antithesis of Christianity and it made her double take. For a moment, she was self aware. But only a fleeting moment. Then she gave me the finger.

51 minutes ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

Screenshot_20260111_120226_Google.jpg

there will be a new one referencing this era

2 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

there will be a new one referencing this era

Will it go to negative 11?

2 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

This is a ridiculous argument.

The environment has changed drastically. It is much harder to avoid politics now compared to 40 years ago.

I'm sure if I was an ex Republican raised in privilege I would feel that way, but I'm not. I was raised by people who got beat up by cops and thrown in jail over their beliefs, and I found myself in harm's way over politics for the first time at 10. So, the world looks different to me than most people on this board. That's OK. We all have different experiences. It was easy for YOU to avoid politics 40 years ago. It wasn't easy for me. Now it's easy for Becky Suburban to avoid them even when she pulls the lever for Trump.

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Follow that line of thinking and you would be an apologist for most Nazis, as they were simply just a product of their environment. Poor helpless and without agency! They have no choice but to pick the most hateful and damaging narrative because, aw shucks, they're just too busy being business leaders to pay attention to those ugly politics

I'm not apologizing or anything like it. I'm saying this is part of the human condition. If it was not that way we could say that the Nazis were an expression of the defects in the German character and that it couldn't happen here. But it can and has. So we have to
1) Understand the difference between leaders, followers and complicit bystanders
2) Acknowlege that outside of the leaders they are just like us.
3) Engage them wherever we can.
4) Be prepared for kinetic violence if we can't.

Think what you want of me but don't fool yourself - withdrawal is not a winning strategy.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova

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1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

Holy shit, just got into a yelling match with my wife (on my side) and the in laws. Just straight right wing propagandists. They immediately bring up shit that I only vaguely know about from the Fox News thread and such on this site as if it is straight reality.

The only thing that came of it from my super Christian MIL is she claimed Jesus would send the immigrants back instead of housing and feeding them. I told her that was the antithesis of Christianity and it made her double take. For a moment, she was self aware. But only a fleeting moment. Then she gave me the finger.

Nothing pisses off a Christian more than pointing out how un-Christian like they act. Or that Christ will reject them.

And of course the worst are the pastors who refuse to speak up because they don’t want to impact donations.

I’m disappointed that there doesn’t seem to be any word from NFL athletes regarding the MN murder. I have to guess that the NFL has threatened the players to not distract from the playoffs.

1 minute ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I’m disappointed that there doesn’t seem to be any word from NFL athletes regarding the MN murder. I have to guess that the NFL has threatened the players to not distract from the playoffs.

I think most are Team ICE, anyway.

3 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Think what you want of me but don't fool yourself - withdrawal is not a winning strategy.

I completely agree, I'm not saying the best course is to withdraw. I'm saying we shouldn't concede every point and excuse their blind hatred and affirmative votes for a modern Kristalnacht. It's happening in Minnesota right now. If they're any sort of "aw shucks" about that, fuck them and they are lost.

Don't retreat from engaging with them, don't concede that because they FEEL a certain way that it must be so, and don't give them room to weasel. Giving them so much rhetorical weasel room is exactly how you end up in this position.

7 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I'm not apologizing or anything like it. I'm saying this is part of the human condition. If it was not that way we could say that the Nazis were an expression of the defects in the German character and that it couldn't happen here.

You're literally excusing their choices as "the human condition". All are equal, but they must be more equal than others if their privileged human condition gives them license to be fascist without contempt from you.

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

You're literally excusing their choices as "the human condition". All are equal, but they must be more equal than others if their privileged human condition gives them license to be fascist without contempt from you.

That’s not an excuse. It’s an observation. But their leaders are the ones I have contempt for. I pity the others and think that there but for the grace of God go I.

10 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That’s not an excuse. It’s an observation. But their leaders are the ones I have contempt for. I pity the others and think that there but for the grace of God go I.

Don't sell yourself short, Bozo. You're a tremendous slouch.

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Holy shit, just got into a yelling match with my wife (on my side) and the in laws. Just straight right wing propagandists. They immediately bring up shit that I only vaguely know about from the Fox News thread and such on this site as if it is straight reality.

The only thing that came of it from my super Christian MIL is she claimed Jesus would send the immigrants back instead of housing and feeding them. I told her that was the antithesis of Christianity and it made her double take. For a moment, she was self aware. But only a fleeting moment. Then she gave me the finger.

Quoting myself because now I’m fucking seething. I can’t believe I have to sit here and pretend they are still worthy of my patience. I’ve always known they weee like this, but today was the first time I saw them admit it. And they just. Don’t. Care. They admitted their hate and that they think it is correct.

I asked them why they supported a child rapist and FIL said “who is a child rapist?” My jaw hit the floor.

Our man bozo is carrying out some weapons grade gaslighting today. Jesus christ, stop.

30 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Quoting myself because now I’m fucking seething. I can’t believe I have to sit here and pretend they are still worthy of my patience. I’ve always known they weee like this, but today was the first time I saw them admit it. And they just. Don’t. Care. They admitted their hate and that they think it is correct.

I asked them why they supported a child rapist and FIL said “who is a child rapist?” My jaw hit the floor.

I’m not in a position to offer advice because they aren’t my in laws, but I’ve had similar experiences and so did my folks. One strategy is to write a letter to them and say everything you would like to say. Then sleep on it before you send it. Then reread it, and decide if that’s what you really want to say. Repeat the process until you have a letter you can send and then send the letter.

They can decide what to do with the information. However you decide to manage the situation, they deserve to have it. And you owe it to yourself not to bottle it up.writing is better than a conversation usually because it removes some of the ambiguity that provides space for false accommodation.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova

nobody needs to hear from Ashley but it's eerily related to where this thread is

48 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Quoting myself because now I’m fucking seething. I can’t believe I have to sit here and pretend they are still worthy of my patience. I’ve always known they weee like this, but today was the first time I saw them admit it. And they just. Don’t. Care. They admitted their hate and that they think it is correct.

I asked them why they supported a child rapist and FIL said “who is a child rapist?” My jaw hit the floor.

That sucks. My in-laws are pretty annoying and hard to be around but we actually agree on politics. My dad’s a trumper but likes seeing his kids and grandkids so rarely brings anything political up.

2 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Will it go to negative 11?

Yes. Just when we think things are at their worst, but you need that little extra to push you over the cliff, you know what we do? Eleven. Exactly. One worse.

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Holy shit, just got into a yelling match with my wife (on my side) and the in laws. Just straight right wing propagandists. They immediately bring up shit that I only vaguely know about from the Fox News thread and such on this site as if it is straight reality.

The only thing that came of it from my super Christian MIL is she claimed Jesus would send the immigrants back instead of housing and feeding them. I told her that was the antithesis of Christianity and it made her double take. For a moment, she was self aware. But only a fleeting moment. Then she gave me the finger.

52 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Quoting myself because now I’m fucking seething. I can’t believe I have to sit here and pretend they are still worthy of my patience. I’ve always known they weee like this, but today was the first time I saw them admit it. And they just. Don’t. Care. They admitted their hate and that they think it is correct.

I asked them why they supported a child rapist and FIL said “who is a child rapist?” My jaw hit the floor.

17 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I’m not in a position to offer advice because they aren’t my in laws, but I’ve had similar experiences and so did my folks. One strategy is to write a letter to them and say everything you would like to say. Then sleep on it before you send it. Then reread it, and decide if that’s what you really want to say. Repeat the process until you have a letter you can send and then send the letter.

They can decide what to do with the information. However you decide to manage the situation, they deserve to have it. And you owe it to yourself not to bottle it up.writing is better than a conversation usually because it removes some of the ambiguity that provides space for false accommodation.

Since you are are struggling to offer advice here I will step in....

Fuck em. Put some distance between you and them and make sure they understand why. My mother and father in law are long time Republicans that pulled the lever for the idiot who is currently in office. My teenage daughter asked her grandma how she could vote against her well being and literally told her how she was disappointed in her. The wife and I have made it extremely uncomfortable for them. My wife's parents, who are retired and have a lot of disposable income, rarely come around much. If that's the price to pay to get them to think about their actions then so be it.

We cannot allow people to exist in our orbit without drawing that line. Otherwise we are enabling them. Silence is collusion after all. Talk to your wife and put some space between you and them.

World Cup, I hope we lose every game 10-nill

Olympics? I hope 0 medals.

5 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

there will be a new one referencing this era

5 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Will it go to negative 11?

updatedcoaster.jpg.4984f28381c32ee6c37a71e7901dd0df.jpg

9 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

And don’t let them stand on some story that the agent was previously hit by a car. If that truly traumatized him, then he shouldn’t be placed in the scenario where there are cars present. He can be in a office filling out paperwork.

Point out that he was violating DHS policy with this shooting by trying to get in front of the Pillot, and also that he was violating DHS policy when he got dragged before.

6 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Holy shit, just got into a yelling match with my wife (on my side) and the in laws. Just straight right wing propagandists. They immediately bring up shit that I only vaguely know about from the Fox News thread and such on this site as if it is straight reality.

For a second there, I was about to suggest you need to check the lineup of your backup spouses in case you end up divorced but saw she was on your side.

You married well

angry married to medicine GIF by RealityTVGIFs

5 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

My dad’s a trumper but likes seeing his kids and grandkids so rarely brings anything political up.

You got him in check; I've done the same thing with some of my relatives.

11 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

But it’s not an abstract proposition. That’s my point. It’s really not your fault. You were a product of your environment, upbringing, history, etc.

I was raised in a different environment full of socially conscious lefties. That doesn’t make me better or worse.

Over time my views changed as I became my own person and so did yours. But that process happens to everyone on a different timeline and for different reasons.

I don't disagree really with any of that.

I think as things stand today, yes, there is a ton of ignorance in the electorate on #bothsides, from lack of information, dis and misinformation, and general lack of interest. And, so, ill-informed and careless environment often produces votes or political alignment.

But, there is a key point of information for the electorate that is right in their faces: Trump's gutter bigotry. And his lies are more easily proven as such than any politician in any living American's lifetime, if not ever. Not to mention his obvious personality disorders.

Edited by TwiceHorn

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't disagree really with any of that.

I think as things stand today, yes, there is a ton of ignorance in the electorate on #bothsides, from lack of information, dis and misinformation, and general lack of interest. And, so, ill-informed and careless environment often produces votes or political alignment.

But, there is a key point of information for the electorate that is right in their faces: Trump's gutter bigotry. And his lies are more easily proven as such than any politician in any living American's lifetime, if not ever. Not to mention his obvious personality disorders.

That’s why they are continuous. Under Reagan it was euphemistic bigotry and hidden corruption. Under Bush it was polite fiction, tortured inferences and LONG stretches of truth combined with sweetheart deals and the occasional foray into fraud to go with massive incompetence and disastrous misjudgement. At no point was anyone paying attention unaware of the game. They were warned that they were pushing the world this way and they didn’t care.

With Trump the mask is off, but a lot of people don’t pay close attention until they are confronted with the thing that rustles their jimmies, and the nature of media today makes that more difficult. But not it’s not a different problem, just bigger and out in the open.

So anyway, there are people on this thread who are got on the right side of history after defending George Allen on Hornfans 20 years ago. I’m glad to have them. I’m also glad to have someone who gives up on Trump and MAGAISM tomorrow or the next day, and I think they are worth talking to.

18 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Holy shit, just got into a yelling match with my wife (on my side) and the in laws. Just straight right wing propagandists. They immediately bring up shit that I only vaguely know about from the Fox News thread and such on this site as if it is straight reality.

The only thing that came of it from my super Christian MIL is she claimed Jesus would send the immigrants back instead of housing and feeding them. I told her that was the antithesis of Christianity and it made her double take. For a moment, she was self aware. But only a fleeting moment. Then she gave me the finger.

I would LOL if that had ever happened in my family. That's just the spoils of victory.

19 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

So anyway, there are people on this thread who are got on the right side of history after defending George Allen on Hornfans 20 years ago. I’m glad to have them. I’m also glad to have someone who gives up on Trump and MAGAISM tomorrow or the next day, and I think they are worth talking to.

Anyone who gives up on trump and maga is worth talking to. I am not going to hold any illusions that anything I say can or will change their minds, though. That's a choice they can only make for themselves - to stop believing in the lie.

I sweatergod it's the exact same dynamic as dealing with foaming at the mouth evangelicals. They're happy to move the goalposts indefinitely because it's not about seeking actual truth, just a personal emotional "truth". You literally cannot reason with that, and every time they interact with each other they ritually reinforce their shared hallucinations. It's a goddamn fucking death cult full of fascists.

They don't even earnestly hold their positions or arguments, it's all just fodder for culture wars. Abortion is mega big bad until Trump does it. Mortgage fraud is the worst thing ever until Trump can't wriggle out of that charge. And on and on. None of it is actually deeply believed, it's all just fig leafs to never critically think about their hatred in their hearts

15 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Anyone who gives up on trump and maga is worth talking to. I am not going to hold any illusions that anything I say can or will change their minds, though. That's a choice they can only make for themselves - to stop believing in the lie.

No, but they can only make the choice if they have the reason to make it, and you can show them things they don’t know today or angles they don’t think about. It’s the same thing about writing Trumpy relatives a letter. You can’t let them default to MAGA, which is what’s happened in Texas, for example.

13 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

You can’t let them default to MAGA, which is what’s happened in Texas, for example.

In my experience, it's been the contrary. Since COVID and qanon, they just reject facts and what their eyes and ears are telling them. Engaging and meeting bullshit with facts is exactly how we got into this mess, according to you a few pages ago anyways right? Can't go hurt their feelings otherwise you'll be responsible for driving them to fascism since they're little babies with no agency, or something right?

I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Since COVID and qanon, they just reject facts and what their eyes and ears are telling them. Engaging and meeting bullshit with facts is exactly how we got into this mess

Exactly. Conservatives tend to be swayed more by gut feelings than rationale. Use emotional points. I think a big part of why my folks snapped out of their rightwing nonsense is they got scared for their minority friends and family.

You have to put a name and face to the suffering. If there’s a friend or relative that is part of an oppressed group, talk about that.

It’s frustrating because grown adults should be able to read the news and deduce the consequences. And they should have empathy. But these people are stupid, lazy, and comfortable. They don’t want to think about unpleasant things or consider that their future might be unhappy or frightening. It takes work to snap them out of their blissful ignorance.

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6 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

The court had no choice. Once the prosecution dismisses the cases, it's just paperwork after that.

Which is why turning the DOJ into the "LAW FIRM WHOLLY OWNED BY DONALD TRUMP THAT DOES WHATEVER HE WANTS" is ANOTHER one of the "most disastrous things to ever happen to the United States." Seriously, I could come up with a list of 100 items that - had any "normal" president done them - would be a term and party-ending scandal. Trump's strategy of flooding the zone works. Do SO many horrible things, everything just gets overwhelmed.

58 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

No, but they can only make the choice if they have the reason to make it, and you can show them things they don’t know today or angles they don’t think about. It’s the same thing about writing Trumpy relatives a letter. You can’t let them default to MAGA, which is what’s happened in Texas, for example.

40 minutes ago, Captainant said:

In my experience, it's been the contrary. Since COVID and qanon, they just reject facts and what their eyes and ears are telling them. Engaging and meeting bullshit with facts is exactly how we got into this mess, according to you a few pages ago anyways right? Can't go hurt their feelings otherwise you'll be responsible for driving them to fascism since they're little babies with no agency, or something right?

I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

You're both right, because different people are different. Bozo is right in this thread when describing how most inattentive people get lulled into pulling the R lever. Captain is right that there is a large segment that wasn't lulled and can't be persuaded. Some percentage of those who were lulled can be persuaded by showing them new information they didn't know. Those who weren't lulled can't be persuaded, but may be motivated by other reasons to switch sides. E.g. Elon's baby momma has been pushed by a personal betrayal. Do I believe she's suddenly a completely different person? No. But if she pretends to be one for long enough, she'll become one. Human psychology is funny like that. And the zeal of the convert can be useful (e.g. I guarantee she won't be preaching moderation and forgiveness when the mob comes for Elon).

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Anyone who gives up on trump and maga is worth talking to. I am not going to hold any illusions that anything I say can or will change their minds, though. That's a choice they can only make for themselves - to stop believing in the lie.

I sweatergod it's the exact same dynamic as dealing with foaming at the mouth evangelicals. They're happy to move the goalposts indefinitely because it's not about seeking actual truth, just a personal emotional "truth". You literally cannot reason with that, and every time they interact with each other they ritually reinforce their shared hallucinations. It's a goddamn fucking death cult full of fascists.

They don't even earnestly hold their positions or arguments, it's all just fodder for culture wars. Abortion is mega big bad until Trump does it. Mortgage fraud is the worst thing ever until Trump can't wriggle out of that charge. And on and on. None of it is actually deeply believed, it's all just fig leafs to never critically think about their hatred in their hearts

Well fucking said. This is exactly what I just went through. It’s not an argument, it’s talking to an illogical brick wall.

We're not alone in this regard. In any country - at least when the choice is binary - a baseline of 30-40 percent in any election is right to far-right. Marine LePen's freaking Vichy dad got 35% in French national elections and he ran to the right of her. The far-right Chega party in Portugal took a third of the vote in last year's elections, and this is a country that still remembers and celebrates the end of the clerico-fascist Salazar dictatorship 50 years ago. Some of those people, probably 20-25% of any electorate, are unreachable and I don't care about them. For now I care about reaching those who can be reached; we can go back to squabbling with them later so long as our common baseline is that fascism is right out in this country. Twenty years ago I'd have heartily disagreed with a lot of you on a lot of topics (family, friends, community here are all liberal/progressive historically) but would have happily done so over a beer or three. It would be good to get back to that with some of these folks.

2 minutes ago, flatdawgs said:

It would be good to get back to that with some of these folks.

You - and we - aren't getting there without having to step over a lot of dead bodies, and coughing through the ashes of a lost republic.

It's too late, man.

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You - and we - aren't getting there without having to step over a lot of dead bodies, and coughing through the ashes of a lost republic.

It's too late, man.

I live in a different part of the country than you, brother. There are still vestiges of that here and I know some of those people who are sickened by this and have changed their minds. I have residency in Portugal but so long as my state is sane and can keep its head above water I'll keep up the fight here. My utmost respect to Texans and others who don't have that yet. Understanding that is why I read this board (and DT).

1 minute ago, flatdawgs said:

I live in a different part of the country than you, brother. There are still vestiges of that here and I know some of those people who are sickened by this and have changed their minds. I have residency in Portugal but so long as my state is sane and can keep its head above water I'll keep up the fight here. My utmost respect to Texans and others who don't have that yet. Understanding that is why I read this board (and DT).

ok-lol.gif

As for us?

Well, I truly have lost count of the number of people I've talked to in recent weeks who are not gun types at all who have asked "so what do I need, and where do I learn to shoot?"

People know what's coming.

e19463c0-c7ec-4730-9902-9268b06c7a8d_tex

50 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The court had no choice. Once the prosecution dismisses the cases, it's just paperwork after that.

Which is why turning the DOJ into the "LAW FIRM WHOLLY OWNED BY DONALD TRUMP THAT DOES WHATEVER HE WANTS" is ANOTHER one of the "most disastrous things to ever happen to the United States." Seriously, I could come up with a list of 100 items that - had any "normal" president done them - would be a term and party-ending scandal. Trump's strategy of flooding the zone works. Do SO many horrible things, everything just gets overwhelmed.

Kind of like the "Oklahoma Principle" -- hold on every play because officials won't call EVERYTHING

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

In my experience, it's been the contrary. Since COVID and qanon, they just reject facts and what their eyes and ears are telling them. Engaging and meeting bullshit with facts is exactly how we got into this mess, according to you a few pages ago anyways right? Can't go hurt their feelings otherwise you'll be responsible for driving them to fascism since they're little babies with no agency, or something right?

I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

Some people are beyond reaching but some are not, and we can only save ourselves by saving them, too. How you provide info matters, but I have no idea what you are talking about with the "can't go hurting their feelings" business. I'm a big believer in "challenger selling" as applied to political pursuasion, but it's only possible if the object of your pursuasion accepts that you wish them well. Here's what that looks like.

Challenger Choreography

How you motivate them is individual. Civic minded people in rural areas might be motivated by library closures or public school defunding. Grandparents might by motivated by a teenage grandkid calling them out (I've seen this one in person and it was amazing). But it only works if they know you aren't their enemy.

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, I truly have lost count of the number of people I've talked to in recent weeks who are not gun types at all who have asked "so what do I need, and where do I learn to shoot?"

Me too. Quite a few of them were literally screaming at me for owning guns a decade ago. I think this ICE bullshit drove the point home for them. Now I'm suddenly giving pointers.

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

The court had no choice. Once the prosecution dismisses the cases, it's just paperwork after that.

Which is why turning the DOJ into the "LAW FIRM WHOLLY OWNED BY DONALD TRUMP THAT DOES WHATEVER HE WANTS" is ANOTHER one of the "most disastrous things to ever happen to the United States." Seriously, I could come up with a list of 100 items that - had any "normal" president done them - would be a term and party-ending scandal. Trump's strategy of flooding the zone works. Do SO many horrible things, everything just gets overwhelmed.

It's the political strategy of your DB committing pass interference on every play knowing the refs won't call them all.

48 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Kind of like the "Oklahoma Principle" -- hold on every play because officials won't call EVERYTHING

Beat me to it!

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