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Русский корабль - иди нахуй


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2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Looking forward to the inevitable handwringing over how bad it is to carefully and discriminatingly assassinate the men responsible for massive, indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilians. 

Here’s a little handwringing. 
 
Did he deserve to get shot? Sure, he fired missiles at civilian centers. He played a stupid game and he won a stupid prize. (I see him as kind of a modern day Joachim Peipfer, except Peipfer may have deserved it even more). 
 
Is this the best way to prosecute the war? I’m not sure. I get that Ukrainians are beyond pissed, but isn’t it better to not give Russians motivation? Let this war be that conflict their leaders got them into, that nobody sees anything but bad coming from?

Also, is Budenov fighting his own war? Is he answerable to Zelensky or the military leadership?

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2 hours ago, KYHorn said:

 

Russian lieutenant general Oleg Tsokov was reportedly killed near temporarily occupied Berdiansk - advisor to Mariupol mayor Petro Andriushchenko.

Tsokov was under sanctions of the EU, Great Britain and New Zealand.

Since August 2022 he commanded the 144th motorized rifle division of the 20th combined arms army of the Russian Federation.  He received the rank of lieutenant general in 2023.  In addition to the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, he took part in two Chechen wars and the war in Syria.

Russia hasn't confirmed this information. 

Some accounts I'm not familiar with are saying he and other officers were staying at a hotel and that nothing remains of the hotel.

 

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9 minutes ago, statsman said:

Here’s a little handwringing. 
 
Did he deserve to get shot? Sure, he fired missiles at civilian centers. He played a stupid game and he won a stupid prize. (I see him as kind of a modern day Joachim Peipfer, except Peipfer may have deserved it even more). 
 
Is this the best way to prosecute the war? I’m not sure. I get that Ukrainians are beyond pissed, but isn’t it better to not give Russians motivation? Let this war be that conflict their leaders got them into, that nobody sees anything but bad coming from?

Also, is Budenov fighting his own war? Is he answerable to Zelensky or the military leadership?

killing the higher ups is good imo.  in a political system not subject to pressure from the masses, you have to make the people in charge feel discomfort somehow.  garroting is kosher. 

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3 hours ago, KYHorn said:

Screenshot_20230711-090910_Twitter.thumb.jpg.58b3524b7ad2c34dc440e6aad118834c.jpg

“Krasnodar runner Kiril Budyonov reported that he was nearby at the time of the murder of the local deputy head of the mobilization department.

The sportsman stated that he personally saw how the serviceman took out a black pistol and fired 2 9mm bullets into his own chest, after which he carefully buried the weapon, threw away the cartridges, laid down, and died.”
😂😂😂

No-Ho Hank?

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23 minutes ago, statsman said:

Is this the best way to prosecute the war? I’m not sure. I get that Ukrainians are beyond pissed, but isn’t it better to not give Russians motivation? Let this war be that conflict their leaders got them into, that nobody sees anything but bad coming from?

Also, is Budenov fighting his own war? Is he answerable to Zelensky or the military leadership?

I think the assumption from most folks following such things is that someone associated with Ukraine killed him, but has there been any official (or unofficial) confirmation of that?

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31 minutes ago, statsman said:

Here’s a little handwringing. 
 
Did he deserve to get shot? Sure, he fired missiles at civilian centers. He played a stupid game and he won a stupid prize. (I see him as kind of a modern day Joachim Peipfer, except Peipfer may have deserved it even more). 
 
Is this the best way to prosecute the war? I’m not sure. I get that Ukrainians are beyond pissed, but isn’t it better to not give Russians motivation? Let this war be that conflict their leaders got them into, that nobody sees anything but bad coming from?

Also, is Budenov fighting his own war? Is he answerable to Zelensky or the military leadership?

what the fuck are you talking about?

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18 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Can the US or Canada give Australia 15-20 acres of land on the Atlantic coast, so they can join NATO?  They went into Afghanistan with us, they are our closest Allie’s in the Pacific….

Give em Florida. Solves one of our biggest problems, and they're already used to living in a place where everything wants to kill you.

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52 minutes ago, statsman said:

Here’s a little handwringing. 
 
Did he deserve to get shot? Sure, he fired missiles at civilian centers. He played a stupid game and he won a stupid prize. (I see him as kind of a modern day Joachim Peipfer, except Peipfer may have deserved it even more). 
 
Is this the best way to prosecute the war? I’m not sure. I get that Ukrainians are beyond pissed, but isn’t it better to not give Russians motivation? Let this war be that conflict their leaders got them into, that nobody sees anything but bad coming from?

Also, is Budenov fighting his own war? Is he answerable to Zelensky or the military leadership?

This is how I look at the morality and wisdom of making every Russian commander worry that they may be shot  on their morning jog:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Reinhard_Heydrich
 

You are a soldier and you’re part of the infrastructure needed to launch missiles at people in pizza parlors and hospitals. Are they following orders? Do they get to sleep at night in peace?  
 

No. Fuck you. Catch a flight to Georgia. Read about what the Allies did to Japanese and Nazi military commanders who followed orders. You’re not special. 

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I get that Zelenskyy wants to be a NATO member like, yesterday, but isn't that literally impossible? If Ukraine joins NATO at any time while Russia still occupies parts of Ukraine, doesn't that immediately trigger Article 5 and we're instantly in a real Russia-NATO shooting war? I feel like I'm missing something really obvious.

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3 minutes ago, tokamak said:

I get that Zelenskyy wants to be a NATO member like, yesterday, but isn't that literally impossible? If Ukraine joins NATO at any time while Russia still occupies parts of Ukraine, doesn't that immediately trigger Article 5 and we're instantly in a real Russia-NATO shooting war? I feel like I'm missing something really obvious.

Well Zelenskyy would love to have NATO join the war. Why wouldn't he?

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2 minutes ago, tokamak said:

I get that Zelenskyy wants to be a NATO member like, yesterday, but isn't that literally impossible? If Ukraine joins NATO at any time while Russia still occupies parts of Ukraine, doesn't that immediately trigger Article 5 and we're instantly in a real Russia-NATO shooting war? I feel like I'm missing something really obvious.

You’re not. NATO membership is not possible as long as a country has an ongoing border dispute at the time of application. Zelenskyy wants to waive/change this basic condition— because of course he does. He wants Russia to immediately have to decide: war with NATO or not? They’d probably choose “not” but the percentage and consequences are dire. 
 

I don’t blame him at all. Waiving the MAP after the war is actually a massive win. 

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6 minutes ago, tokamak said:

I get that Zelenskyy wants to be a NATO member like, yesterday, but isn't that literally impossible? If Ukraine joins NATO at any time while Russia still occupies parts of Ukraine, doesn't that immediately trigger Article 5 and we're instantly in a real Russia-NATO shooting war? I feel like I'm missing something really obvious.

No. You're not missing anything. That's the reason why it's a non-starter until Russia is defeated...or if Article 5 is triggered in some other way making it a moot point.

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7 minutes ago, tokamak said:

I get that Zelenskyy wants to be a NATO member like, yesterday, but isn't that literally impossible? If Ukraine joins NATO at any time while Russia still occupies parts of Ukraine, doesn't that immediately trigger Article 5 and we're instantly in a real Russia-NATO shooting war? I feel like I'm missing something really obvious.

Nope, you’re correct. That’s exactly what it means. 

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33 minutes ago, tokamak said:

Don’t mind me over here just googling “Estonia pm” and clicking images. 

I have 'em on the equivalent of speed dial. The leadership in Europe is inspirational to say the least, and a refreshing benchmark of the depth that American politics have reached.

Kaja Kallas    Estonia

image.thumb.png.1e0154b2d7e76385168922feeb43ba9d.png

Ursula von der Leyen    EU-Germany

image.thumb.png.1b726a5a2696bff36e437db08b4fff58.png

 

Sanna Marin    Finland

image.thumb.png.02877d2e420b3e4de95bdb89f1bc9677.png

Giorgia Meloni    Italy

image.thumb.png.80aea48be69c15b261adc6378e80614e.png

 

Annalena Baerbock    Germany

image.thumb.png.343419edf7d446a679a00931bc648d3b.png

And some bonus footage of Giorgia Meloni's rendition of a romance language. Even without the subtitles, Anybody with that passion is deserving of unmitigated support. You best not be leaving the toilet seat up in her house.

 

Edited by PTINS
double image
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9 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Well Zelenskyy would love to have NATO join the war. Why wouldn't he?

 

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You’re not. NATO membership is not possible as long as a country has an ongoing border dispute at the time of application. Zelenskyy wants to waive/change this basic condition— because of course he does. He wants Russia to immediately have to decide: war with NATO or not? They’d probably choose “not” but the percentage and consequences are dire. 
 

I don’t blame him at all. Waiving the MAP after the war is actually a massive win. 

 

6 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

No. You're not missing anything. That's the reason why it's a non-starter until Russia is defeated...or if Article 5 is triggered in some other way making it a moot point.

 

5 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Nope, you’re correct. That’s exactly what it means. 

OK I just read a bit more in depth article on NYT where it is made clear that what Zelenskyy is asking for is a clear plan "once the war is over". I had been reading headlines and stuff and thinking that he was literally asking to join right away.

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11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“We were shocked when two rich nations that had kept the pretense of neutrality to get security benefits with no obligations decided to lock in those security benefits once shit got real and we invaded our neutral neighbor. WTF?” 

Pretty pathetic, at one point Lavrov was considered a titan of diplomacy (even if thru disagreement) now he is reduced to making ridiculous statements that are dismissed out of hand.  

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33 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

Pretty pathetic, at one point Lavrov was considered a titan of diplomacy (even if thru disagreement) now he is reduced to making ridiculous statements that are dismissed out of hand.  

Out of all the scoundrels in Stalin's inner circle, Molotov (the diplomat) was the only one to die naturally, by deftly hewing to the party line as necessary.   Lavrov has taken this lesson to heart it seems. 

But his desire to live has made him a total fucking clown on the world stage.  

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2 hours ago, The Dog said:

NATO allies have agreed to simplify the process of Ukraine's entry into the North Atlantic Alliance, Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said . "We reiterated that Ukraine will become a member of NATO and agreed to cancel the requirements for an action plan for membership in the alliance. This will change the path for Ukraine to join NATO, instead of a two-stage process, it will be a one-stage process," Stoltenberg said at a press conference in Vilnius.

2 hours ago, The Dog said:

According to Stoltenberg, the NATO summit also agreed on the establishment of a Ukraine-NATO council, as well as a multi-year support program aimed at bringing the Ukrainian Armed Forces up to NATO standards.

Shit, shouldn't we be bringing NATO armed forces up to Ukrainian standards?  Those folks are improvising, adapting, and overcoming like nobody's business.

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s been a real luxury— and I mean that in the best sense— that Americans and even Western Europeans— have for decades been able to mostly not pay much attention to how NATO works and what it really means. In great times, it should work that way, as something you know about but don’t need to get into the details. 
 

This war has (IMO) had a “benefit” also of really shaking our most well-meaning and generally educated citizens to life and hopefully will influence the choices we make with the understanding that foreign affairs and security really matter and that making good choices in that sphere ALLOWS us the room to have the conversations about what domestic decisions are best. And (no CR) I usually believe that an educated citizen with a sense of right and wrong can usually get to the right place on this stuff faster than the DC foreign policy blob or God forbid our populist agitators. So I’m glad when we have our smart people at home asking questions about NATO and how it works and why it’s important. 

"Americans will always do the right thing...only after they have tried everything else."  - Winston Churchill

 

But we get there.

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9 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Shit, shouldn't we be bringing NATO armed forces up to Ukrainian standards?  Those folks are improvising, adapting, and overcoming like nobody's business.

Yeah, they have to say that. Pretty sure that part of the NATO process is going to be about as onerous as a guy on a clipboard marking the check box. 

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17 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Shit, shouldn't we be bringing NATO armed forces up to Ukrainian standards?  Those folks are improvising, adapting, and overcoming like nobody's business.

They've been pretty innovative but remember we've been sending them our old crap from the 90s. 

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s been a real luxury— and I mean that in the best sense— that Americans and even Western Europeans— have for decades been able to mostly not pay much attention to how NATO works and what it really means. In great times, it should work that way, as something you know about but don’t need to get into the details. 

This war has (IMO) had a “benefit” also of really shaking our most well-meaning and generally educated citizens to life and hopefully will influence the choices we make with the understanding that foreign affairs and security really matter and that making good choices in that sphere ALLOWS us the room to have the conversations about what domestic decisions are best. And (no CR) I usually believe that an educated citizen with a sense of right and wrong can usually get to the right place on this stuff faster than the DC foreign policy blob or God forbid our populist agitators. So I’m glad when we have our smart people at home asking questions about NATO and how it works and why it’s important. 

To be fair, none of us expected the Russians to be the biggest fucking dumbasses in the world.  I mean, the writing was on the wall and everything, but it was stunning how fast the Berlin Wall fell, and we all thought there'd be peace in Europe. Yeah, the Chechen stuff in the 90s could have been a wakeup call, but that was also easy to blow off as the Muslims wanted to break from Moscow, just as other Republics wanted to/did.

Europe and the US pretty much coasted along for nearly 25 years after the Soviet Union fell, and then Crimea/DPR/LPR invasion happened, and Putin had much more influence over their politics, and Europe relied on Russia's energy, so everybody pulled their heads inside of their shells and pretended like it wasn't happening.

Post-2014, he best bet would have been for us to at least implement the sanctions we've put on them since February 2022 and work to get Europe off of Russian energy.  As it stands, everybody woke up late, but when shit got going in early to mid-2022, everybody started working together quickly and Getting Shit Done, to the point where Russia only has empty threats left.

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5 hours ago, statsman said:

 Did he deserve to get shot? Sure, he fired missiles at civilian centers. He played a stupid game and he won a stupid prize. (I see him as kind of a modern day Joachim Peipfer, except Peipfer may have deserved it even more). 
 
Is this the best way to prosecute the war? I’m not sure. I get that Ukrainians are beyond pissed, but isn’t it better to not give Russians motivation? Let this war be that conflict their leaders got them into, that nobody sees anything but bad coming from?

5 hours ago, kevwun said:

We assassinated Yamamoto in WWII.  The key to avoiding that is to not be an asshole who invades another country.  It was with planes and not a pistol, but it was a planned operation.

There is no difference between the Ukrainians tracking some high-ranking officers and cutting loose and killing them with HIMARS when they happen to get within range, and a Ukrainian agent tracking and shooting an individual officer.  That missile and that agent are both weapons of the state in a time of war, and that Russian officer, even when he is inside of Russia or Russian-controlled territory, is a lawful enemy combatant.

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