Jump to content

Israel


SmokeyBear1861

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s literally a Wikipedia category of Muslim and Arab pogroms against the Jews across centuries my guy. The special non-believer tax was invented specifically for Jews.I’m sorry you don’t know about it. 

There wasn’t a deep-seated desire in Europe to exterminate the Jews (as opposed to subjugate and perpetrate sporadic programs and massacres alternating with periods of enlightenment and tolerance—which is similar pattern to how Muslim rulers treated their Jews in their own sphere) until suddenly it appeared in the 1930s. What’s the fucking point you’re trying to make, anti-Semitism doesn’t count if it’s not genocidal? 

Anti-semitism counts, but we're talking about defense and war. Imminent threats, which I don't believe Gaza would be if it were treated fairly and with dignity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Who has stated this? Like Sidney, I've read every single post in both threads. You are the only poster I've seen that has typed out that phrase or something similar.

Personally, I want the IDF to take every necessary legal action to eradicate Hamas. I fully understand there will be "collateral damage," as our government has so euphemistically termed the unintentional killing of civilians. I want to see Hamas so thoroughly whipped that (much like the German people after the Nazis) the Palestinians come to realize that peace is the only answer. But I also want the Israelis to conduct themselves within the legal framework of acceptable behavior as outlined by international law.

Finally, I want the Israelis to do what the US did in the aftermath: assist in building an economy and government in the West Bank and Gaza so that the Palestinians themselves demand from their fellow people that they have peace. What that means is Israel must also grant them the ability to have a viable country that's not carved up into little ghettos surrounded by radical Orthodox settlers who want to eradicate them.

That's it. That is all. Kick ass and be magnanimous in victory. The Israeli government has never done that since the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

The Oslo Plan that everyone keeps citing as fair was anything but that, as I outlined with citations to American participants in the negotiations and the Mitchell Report that investigated the Second Intifada. The Israelis still wanted to have the West Bank chopped up into pieces, never explicitly supported a completely independent Palestinian state, and insisted on having the right to bring in the IDF whenever they wanted. Moreover, during and after the process, the Israeli government continued to allow settlers to encroach on what the international community recognized as not Israeli land. At the beginning of that process, there were 100,000 settlers in the West Bank. By the end of it, there were 200,000. Today, there are 700,000.

Give the Palestinians a fucking chance to have their own country, which they did not have prior to 1967. Sidney keeps saying the Palestinians invaded Israel in all those wars. Yes, there may have been participants who hadn't been living in refugee camps for 20 years, but it was Syria, Jordan, and Egypt that were doing the invasion.

Give the Palestinians the right to full self-rule.

I agree completely agree. It’s almost like they should have come to the table one of the dozen times and negotiated a second state that everyone seems to claim they all want. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, given where we are....there is no possible peace at this point unless Israel does some very specific things. If you're not willing to even consider that, we might as well just let them wipe the Palestinians out, once and for all, and see how that fucking works out for them in the long run. Israel has only been getting away with their pants-shittingly long list of war crimes for so long because they are backed by the might of the US military and the relative indifference of the world at large.
Palestinians have no power to change anything. It's like I said earlier, their hatred of Jews, such as it is for whatever X% of them, is not baked into their fucking DNA, it can god damned well be unlearned, it is just a very difficult and time consuming process should it ever be undertaken. And there's of course, no guarantee that some other awful fucking thing wouldn't happen in the middle of it to wipe out all the hard work.
There can never, ever be peace unless Israel stops the ethnic cleansing in its tracks, first and foremost, and shows willingness to treat Palestinians like humans and with equality. No matter what minutiae we kick around here and argue about, absolutely nothing will change or get better unless those things happen first. It's the only possible first step on the way to peace.
But, I'm a doomer like you, and the Israeli government is run by bloodthirsty freaks, so I suspect the most likely outcome is mass genocide. Cheered on by the DT posters and every other shitty person in America, I might add.

Does it surprise you that I really don’t disagree with your take?
Israel will have to try, and that means doing things very differently than they’ve been done in the Bibi era. They have to try treating the Palestinians with humanity and respect for human rights.
The tough to balance part is that they ALSO have to eliminate Hamas as a military and political entity, or get damned close to it.
Israel CAN do both those things. But it’s making it clear that it’s going to go full Bibi, and war crime the shit out of this.
In each direction, with two sides who each have a very fair and understandable position, the bloodthirsty shitheels are in charge.
But then….maybe the people of Israel and the Palestinians both are getting what they deserve, because they CHOSE this leadership. Sure, plenty of them didn’t….but enough of them did.
If the Palestinians don’t want their cities blasted, don’t support leadership that pledges endless jihad and extermination of all Jews.
If the Israelis don’t want to stoke the fires of Palestinian anger, don’t support leadership that pledges to shit on them even more.
But that’s what they all do. Fuck, it’s what we do here - we can’t say “Trump isn’t on us.” Like hell he ain’t. Enough of us supported him to get him elected. It doesn’t take a majority to make you a shitty nation, just a plurality big enough to make you shitty.
We’re going to get war crimes galore in Gaza.
We’re going to get murders of Jews worldwide.
And round and round it goes. We are a shit species. And we’re incapable of changing for the better. Eventually, we’ll get around to exterminating ourselves completely.
  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

I agree completely agree. It’s almost like they should have come to the table one of the dozen times and negotiated a second state that everyone seems to claim they all want. 

They did in 2011 during the Obama administration. Bibi was prime minister by then. It did not go well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That's simple math. How many people live in Gaza? 2.2 million. What's the size of Hamas? The biggest estimate I've seen is 40,000. What's 40,000 divided by 2,200,000? 0.018 (just under 2 percent). What's 100 minus 2? 98.

Yet up to 57% polled say they feel positive about them. And they shelter and house them, lie for them, etc. but yes, ignore all the polling you’ve cited elsewhere when it suits you. What’s 30% of 2.2? 57%?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

Yet up to 57% polled say they feel positive about them. And they shelter and house them, lie for them, etc. but yes, ignore all the polling you’ve cited elsewhere when it suits you. What’s 30% of 2.2? 57%?

"Feel positive" about is much different from "joining" or "providing material support to." There's no justification for the slaughter of these children, and you know it.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Anti-semitism counts, but we're talking about defense and war. Imminent threats, which I don't believe Gaza would be if it were treated fairly and with dignity.

There were no wars because early Muslim armies destroyed all the Jewish political entities in the region, massacred the obstinate Jews, occupied their lands, and forced the survivors to live under an oppressive special regime where they were deprived of full rights and subject to random violence whenever the majority population felt threatened. 

This should all sound exceedingly familiar to the current situation. I really don’t know how obtuse you can be. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

"Feel positive" about is much different from "joining" or "providing material support to." There's no justification for the slaughter of these children, and you know it.

Which I’ve never advocated, and condemned repeatedly. It’s horrific. And Bibi has put us here in the near term, except he didn’t elect Hamas after Israel withdrew from Gaza.. And you act like only the last 18 years exist and no previous history that led to that fucking cunt Bibi to grab and retain power. 


Quote me where I’ve been anything other than distraught over the loss of lives in Gaza that’s coming. I fucking dare you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s literally a Wikipedia category of Muslim and Arab pogroms against the Jews across centuries my guy. The special non-believer tax was invented specifically for Jews.I’m sorry you don’t know about it. 

There wasn’t a deep-seated desire in Europe to exterminate the Jews (as opposed to subjugate and perpetrate sporadic programs and massacres alternating with periods of enlightenment and tolerance—which is similar pattern to how Muslim rulers treated their Jews in their own sphere) until suddenly it appeared in the 1930s. What’s the fucking point you’re trying to make, anti-Semitism doesn’t count if it’s not genocidal? 

After the 1880s, the Ottomans were selling land to Zionist settlers, who employed Palestinian laborers to help work their farms. Yeah, they were paying that extra tax (as were Christians), but they were allowed to build new villages along the coast from Jaffa to Haifa and into the interior.

Were there tensions prior to Balfour? Yes.

Did things amp up after Balfour? Yes, but it was because the Brits had promised to help establish Palestine as its own state as a buffer to protect the Suez.

And then, of course, when the UN carved out a bunch of land and 250,000 Palestinians were forcibly removed, did the Palestinians really get pissed? You bet.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

After the 1880s, the Ottomans were selling land to Zionist settlers, who employed Palestinian laborers to help work their farms. Yeah, they were paying that extra tax (as were Christians), but they were allowed to build new villages along the coast from Jaffa to Haifa and into the interior.

Were there tensions prior to Balfour? Yes.

Did things amp up after Balfour? Yes, but it was because the Brits had promised to help establish Palestine as its own state as a buffer to protect the Suez.

And then, of course, when the UN carved out a bunch of land and 250,000 Palestinians were forcibly removed, did the Palestinians really get pissed? You bet.

You mean almost exactly like this:

Quote

There wasn’t a deep-seated desire in Europe to exterminate the Jews (as opposed to subjugate and perpetrate sporadic programs and massacres alternating with periods of enlightenment and tolerance—which is similar pattern to how Muslim rulers treated their Jews in their own sphere) until suddenly it appeared in the 1930s. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

 No shit it didn’t. Maybe show up more than 1/30 times. And I’m shocked Bibi scuttled shit. What happened when his predecessor left Gaza in 2005?

How much effort in building up democratic norms and making investments to create a viable economy had Israel made before unleashing them? You militarily occupy a territory for 40 years and then just let go? That spells trouble.

You'd think they would've had a Marshall Plan or not forced people to live under a pretty harsh police state or something while also concurrently putting forth genuine efforts in building peace between neighbors.

Tell me again, how did all those Israeli settlers who were made to leave when the occupation of Gaza ended acquire all that farmland in Gaza, which was not internationally recognized as Israeli soil?

Seems if you're in charge of a place for 40 years, you'd try not to let it bite you in the ass when you suddenly let it go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, bolverk said:

After the 1880s, the Ottomans were selling land to Zionist settlers, who employed Palestinian laborers to help work their farms. Yeah, they were paying that extra tax (as were Christians), but they were allowed to build new villages along the coast from Jaffa to Haifa and into the interior.

Were there tensions prior to Balfour? Yes.

Did things amp up after Balfour? Yes, but it was because the Brits had promised to help establish Palestine as its own state as a buffer to protect the Suez.

And then, of course, when the UN carved out a bunch of land and 250,000 Palestinians were forcibly removed, did the Palestinians really get pissed? You bet.

I think it’s relevant to remember that about 60 percent of the Jews in Israel are descendants of Middle Eastern Jews who got kicked out of their ancient homes as revenge for the establishment of Israel. Which they had nothing to do with. 
 

And in a big population swap, they came to Israel as refugees while Arab Palestinians fled as refugees. The difference being that Israel integrated and gave citizenship to those people as opposed to maintaining them as permanent aggrieved refugees. 
 

So there’s a big chunk of Israelis with just as much claim to righteous fury for being evicted, and that’s almost never mentioned in the settler/colonial narrative, nor is a realistic alternative as to what they should have done. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think it’s relevant to remember that about 60 percent of the Jews in Israel are descendants of Middle Eastern Jews who got kicked out of their ancient homes as revenge for the establishment of Israel. Which they had nothing to do with. 
 

And in a big population swap, they came to Israel as refugees while Arab Palestinians fled as refugees. The difference being that Israel integrated and gave citizenship to those people as opposed to maintaining them as permanent aggrieved refugees. 
 

So there’s a big chunk of Israelis with just as much claim to righteous fury for being evicted, and that’s almost never mentioned in the settler/colonial narrative, nor is a realistic alternative as to what they should have done. 

So they took it out their fury on the Palestinians who'd been neglected by Jordan and Egypt instead?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

So they took it out their fury on the Palestinians who'd been neglected by Jordan and Egypt instead?

Well, that’s one narrative.  Another one is that their former rulers first evicted them from their ancient homes and forced them to go to a new one, the only one that would take them. And then those same rulers launched successive wars against their new home to try and destroy it under the theory the place they got sent to had no right to exist. 
 

And both narratives are true. The point here is that “who’s been more victimized” isn’t really helpful. Just like it’s not helpful to say “Israel has all the power.”  Did all that power protect the 1k and counting who got murdered on Saturday? Did they feel powerful? 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, G650 said:

So a total aside, I've always found antisemitism to be the most bizarre thing, like from the time I was a child. And these days when I hear some crackpot thing abot the Jews running the world, it's just, man. Like <waves at everything that's happened to Jews in the past two millennia >. Y'all really think these people control shit?

I've had this thought, too.  However, Muslims conveniently let Jews be the banker/mercantile class in many of their societies, and, as we have seen right here in 'murica, those people exercise a lot of control behind the scenes.

And, not directly relevant, but the Rothschilds amassed a huge fortune that they wisely kept quite secret, and from that position, exercised a lot of control of various things, such as financing Britain and her allies during the Napoleonic wars.

So, combine those historical facts with some of the various myths and you have a ripe plantation for conspiracy theories.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

Counterpoint:

Jews lived, albeit in small numbers, in the area we call Palestine for centuries alongside their Arab/Palestinian neighbors without being exterminated. Even during the early Zionism movement, starting in the 1880s when more Jews were arriving and their numbers began to swell, they were not exterminated by their Arab/Palestinian neighbors.

It's not a coincidence that the violence didn't really get started until about the time the UN carved out a bunch of land and the Palestinians were being kicked out of their ancestral homeland did major conflict arise. It wasn't because of any inherent hatred of the Jews (they were tolerated); it was because Palestinians being displaced (forcibly I might add) from the farms they'd been tilling and villages they'd been inhabiting for 1500 years.

The Ottomans, Byzantines, Malmuks and others are doing a lot of the heavy lifting here over the centuries, I might add. If you want to argue that ethnonationalism is maybe inferior to huge multiethnic empires where the ruler just cares about keeping a lid on things and collecting taxes, I might go there…..

image.jpeg.4852194363b2cb57ed0df19d68ae7a0f.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Well, that’s one narrative.  Another one is that their former rulers first evicted them from their ancient homes and forced them to go to a new one, the only one that would take them. And then those same rulers launched successive wars against their new home to try and destroy it under the theory the place they got sent to had no right to exist. 
 

And both narratives are true. The point here is that “who’s been more victimized” isn’t really helpful. Just like it’s not helpful to say “Israel has all the power.”  Did all that power protect the 1k and counting who got murdered on Saturday? Did they feel powerful? 

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

  1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
  2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
  3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
  4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
  5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

  1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
  2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
  3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
  4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
  5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

The other viable solution is the complete and utter defeat of Palestinian resistance and the integration of remaining Palestinians into Israel as a unified state. We are a lot closer to that one happening, for better or worse. It isn't my preference by any means, but I think it is what will happen in the long run. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, bolverk said:

How much effort in building up democratic norms and making investments to create a viable economy had Israel made before unleashing them? You militarily occupy a territory for 40 years and then just let go? That spells trouble.

You'd think they would've had a Marshall Plan or not forced people to live under a pretty harsh police state or something while also concurrently putting forth genuine efforts in building peace between neighbors.

Tell me again, how did all those Israeli settlers who were made to leave when the occupation of Gaza ended acquire all that farmland in Gaza, which was not internationally recognized as Israeli soil?

Seems if you're in charge of a place for 40 years, you'd try not to let it bite you in the ass when you suddenly let it go.

Oh, I see. It’s Israel’s fault for not doing the one thing that pretty much never happens in any colonial situation. America is still learning that lesson over and over, but let’s hold Israel to a higher standard, and as a result basically they deserve what Hamas came dishing, is that it? The US didn’t even learn from the Marshall Plan, and we fucking did it. It’s almost like you’re intent on finding a way to lay the ultimate fault here at the feet of Israel, no matter what. 
 

How did Israel get all that farmland? Palestinians attacked Israel in 1967 and Israel not only repelled them, but drove them back and took more land after they were invaded. And then they offered to give almost all of it back immediately after the war in a 2 state solution, and Palestinians told them to go fuck themselves. It’s almost like war has consequences sometimes. Not taking an off ramp to peace certainly did I guess in this instance. Now compare where Palestine would be now if they’d accepted that deal back then? Or better yet, never fucking attacked in the first place? But yes, it’s always Israel’s fault and they have all the power. What a fucking load of horseshit. 

“Try not to let it bite you in the ass.” When you put it that way, it sounds like not ceding the land and letting them democratically elect a militant extremist sect whose charter is Jewish genocide worldwide. I’m not sure you’re making the point you think you’re making. 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The other viable solution is the complete and utter defeat of Palestinian resistance and the integration of remaining Palestinians into Israel as a unified state. We are a lot closer to that one happening, for better or worse. It isn't my preference by any means, but I think it is what will happen in the long run. 

I don't think the Israeli Jews would go for that one given the demographic trends pointing to them soon being a minority in the combined territories.

I used to think the same, but the Israelis wouldn't let go of the dream of having their own Jewish state. I don't blame them either, given their history. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

  1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
  2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
  3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
  4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
  5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

This is a pretty good plan. 
 

Neither side will agree to it. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

  1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
  2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
  3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
  4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
  5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

There’s no world where the UN is equipped to administer a city long-term and control it, that’s not how the UN is set up to function. And that’s not a knock on the UN for this instance, just pointing out that it’s calling for a wrench to be a hammers. Wasn’t there a Tom Clancy book where they agree to give Jerusalem to the Holy See to administer with a beefed up Swiss Guards? Give it a shot. 
 

The devil here is as always in the sequences. Israel will claim (with good reason) that number 1 must come first because it’s a question of their existence. Palestine and the Arab states will claim that radicalism and violence can’t be rooted out until 2 and 5 happens. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s no world where the UN is equipped to administer a city long-term and control it, that’s not how the UN is set up to function. And that’s not a knock on the UN for this instance, just pointing out that it’s calling for a wrench to be a hammers. Wasn’t there a Tom Clancy book where they agree to give Jerusalem to the Holy See to administer with a beefed up Swiss Guards? Give it a shot. 
 

The devil here is as always in the sequences. Israel will claim (with good reason) that number 1 must come first because it’s a question of their existence. Palestine and the Arab states will claim that radicalism and violence can’t be rooted out until 2 and 5 happens. 

They may suck at it, but it never stopped them. DRC? 

There were calls to do this exact thing in Sarajevo. But with muscle, not a bunch of Bangladeshi and Guatemalan troops. With a mandate they could. 

If there is one city on the earth that should be international it is Jerusalem. 

They could do it with a good plan, or at least slow down the tsunami that could come. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

  1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
  2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
  3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
  4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
  5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

  1. This is a poor comparison.  The Nazi Party in Germany was a far-right, fascist political movement that only lasted 25 years from inception to dissolution.  The norms of the practice of Islam in this geographical region have existed for thousands of years.  A better comparison that still pales in comparison to historical magnitude is the practice of State Shinto in Japan, which required abolishment by the Allies by decree after World War II.  I don't see how you're going to remove the norms of the practice of Islam in this geographical region.  It seems the best case scenario is you'd migrate it to other, nearby countries.
  2. This is not feasible.  Under immense international pressure they pulled out of Gaza in 2005.  We know the rest.  They are not going to be willing to potentially repeat the same decisions.
  3. The United Nations is not equipped or positioned to manage such a situation.  That is not even remotely feasible.
  4. What force?  No one is going to sign up for that role.  This is not realistic or feasible.
  5. Wasn't this, somewhat, the approach with Gaza and the West Bank?  How do you execute on nation building without occupation?  For example, how do you prevent the excavation of water and sewer pipes?  Who is going to enforce that?

At this point it seems more likely Israel is going to have to transition to full occupation and enforcement in the short-term to stabilize the region.  Where they go from there and how they manage those areas in the future are TBD and will be the topic of much discussion.  As others have stated, it seems like some sort of integration may actually be the better long-term solution given history.  It will still be problematic for Israel given it's geographical location and neighbors, but perhaps they have a better shot at integration and stabilization long-term.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

They may suck at it, but it never stopped them. DRC? 

There were calls to do this exact thing in Sarajevo. But with muscle, not a bunch of Bangladeshi and Guatemalan troops. With a mandate they could. 

If there is one city on the earth that should be international it is Jerusalem. 

They could do it with a good plan, or at least slow down the tsunami that could come. 

But those are peace-keeping missions and not a long-term mandate to administer territory. The goal is always to remove the peacekeepers, not to hand over cities or territories to UN administrators, which would not at all be democratic and the UN doesn’t have the structure to do.

And even a long-term peacekeeping mission in a place like Jerusalem— strictly security— falls apart as soon as the mandate at the UNSC is withdrawn, so you’re relying on a bunch of really not trustworthy actors to just keep it going.

Kosovo would be closest, that UN mission had civil admin components. But the end goal was always to had over competencies, it’s hard to see either side or the UNSC signing up for a permanent “UN Jerusalem.” 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/a-jewish-plea-stand-up-to-israels-act-of-genocide/

Quote

 

I have by my desk a quote attributed to beloved Jewish writer and activist Grace Paley: “The only recognizable feature of hope is action.” For over a decade that has motivated my work to build a thriving moment of American Jews in solidarity with Palestinians. But where do you find hope in the midst of utter horror? My only hope in this moment is that my fellow Jewish Americans and people of conscience all across America will unite in a way we never have before to call for an end to genocide.

Israel has dropped more bombs on Palestinians in Gaza this week than the United States dropped on Afghanistan in a full year of the war. Last night the Israeli government issued an evacuation order for the entire northern Gaza Strip, telling residents to evacuate in twenty-four hours. This order forewarns a ground invasion. Israel’s intention is to try to absolve itself of responsibility for what will ultimately be massive casualties among untold thousands who are unable or unwilling to leave. The UN has already deemed this impossible in the narrow strip where for sixteen years Israel has imprisoned 2.2 million Palestinians—nearly half of them children—in a crushing siege of land, air, and sky. 

This is genocide. 

Text threads, from those who still have an hour or so of battery life on their phones, are full of panicked families trying to discern if they should try to flee. There is nowhere to go. Entire families—grandparents, baby nieces, uncles and aunts, siblings—have been annihilated. Boys are killed as they play soccer in front of a mosque; friends are searching for their families in rubble or getting calls that they were bombed in a crowded marketplace trying to buy food before Israel cut off the supply.

So many children will die who have never seen life outside of the walls of the ghetto that Israel has locked them in, as politicians here in the United States cheer on the carnage, claiming they are doing it to protect people of my own religion.

This is genocide. 

Yes, on Saturday, Hamas militants broke out of the prison of Gaza and massacred 1,200 Israelis, including many civilians, taking more than 100 hostages. From the second I heard what was happening I have been overcome by a combination of grief and horror at the massacre itself, and also the sheer, unrelenting terror of knowing how the Israeli and American governments would weaponize these deaths. 

And like clockwork, the loss of Israeli lives is being used by our government to justify the rush to genocide, to provide moral cover for the immoral push for more weapons and more death. 

For Jews, the pain we feel is not ours alone. Since the founding of the state of Israel, the Zionist movement has positioned the domination and oppression of Palestinians and the colonization of Palestinian land as the answer to the very real question of Jewish safety. They have taken the very real pain and trauma that we as Jews carry and sharpened it into a deadly weapon. We desperately must understand that what is happening is not a cycle of violence. It is a system of violence. Everyone is caught in its teeth.

It is the system of settler colonial apartheid that the Israeli government has built and maintained over the past seventy-five years—with billions upon billions of dollars from the United States. Settler colonialism is a structure, a language, a culture, an ideology—an interlocking, totalizing, system of violence. It is a machine of war and dehumanization against Palestinians. It is this system that imperils the lives and safety of everyone.

While the vast majority of the violence of the apartheid regime lands on Palestinians, there is no safety for Israelis in a system rooted in such dehumanization and oppression. In the words of Holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer, “My great lesson from Auschwitz is: whoever wants to dehumanize any other must first be dehumanized himself. The oppressors are no longer really human, whatever uniform they wear.” The Israeli government has lost any semblance of humanity as they wage a genocide against the people living in Gaza.

It is not Palestinians who have chosen the language of violence for this land. It is the Israeli government and the United States government that have created a state of violence. 

Palestinians have remained steadfast in seeking freedom against immeasurable violence. Tens of thousands of Palestinians protested in weekly grassroots nonviolent protests at Israel’s militarized border wall around Gaza during the Great March of Return in 2019, and the Israeli government sent military snipers to murder and maim hundreds of children, women, medics, and journalists. Palestinians launch boycott campaigns to win their rights, and the Israeli government opens an entire new ministry to combat the nonviolent movement. Palestinians work at human rights organizations to document the crimes against them, and they are called and treated as terrorists. Palestinians speak the language of freedom, and the Israeli government responds—every single time—with the language of violence.

The United States government has united to fully support the Israeli war machine. Already the United States sends more than $3 billion in aid to Israel every year. Now Senator Lindsey Graham said, “I am with Israel. Do whatever the hell you have to do to defend yourself. Level the place.” Make no mistake: Israel isn’t defending itself, it is committing mass murder. Biden says, “We’ll make sure Israel has what it needs to take care of itself.” Make no mistake: Israel is waging genocide. 

My dear ones in Palestine are saying that they have never experienced such destruction in seventy-five years of occupation. My dear ones are saying there is not a moment to wait. Do not sit back while Israel carries out a genocide fully enabled by the United States. Bring your full body, your spirit, your communities, your humanity, to meet this moment, to call your representatives, to the streets. “Never again” means standing up for Palestinian people. “Never again” means this very moment.

 

All this. 

Edited by MC Fresh Breath
  • Rage+1 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But those are peace-keeping missions and not a long-term mandate to administer territory. The goal is always to remove the peacekeepers, not to hand over cities or territories to UN administrators, which would not at all be democratic and the UN doesn’t have the structure to do.

And even a long-term peacekeeping mission in a place like Jerusalem— strictly security— falls apart as soon as the mandate at the UNSC is withdrawn, so you’re relying on a bunch of really not trustworthy actors to just keep it going.

Kosovo would be closest, that UN mission had civil admin components. But the end goal was always to had over competencies, it’s hard to see either side or the UNSC signing up for a permanent “UN Jerusalem.” 

I put thoughts out there a few times. 

And maybe it is time to change what a UN Mandate is. Declare the free city, no IDF or PA. Egypt takes over Gaza (which they don't want). 

And the UN WOULD FUCKING LOVE IT! it is why Haiti is a place they love to serve. Ongoing mandate, flights to Miami or Santo Domingo. 

I would say the HighRep for Bosnia is what it would look like. Not Kosovo. Difference is demographics and mandate. 

And Mr. Martini sipping smarty pants, how long has the UN been in the DRC? (I kid about the martini, but now I want one) 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I put thoughts out there a few times. 

And maybe it is time to change what a UN Mandate is. Declare the free city, no IDF or PA. Egypt takes over Gaza (which they don't want). 

And the UN WOULD FUCKING LOVE IT! it is why Haiti is a place they love to serve. Ongoing mandate, flights to Miami or Santo Domingo. 

I would say the HighRep for Bosnia is what it would look like. Not Kosovo. Difference is demographics and mandate. 

And Mr. Martini sipping smarty pants, how long has the UN been in the DRC? (I kid about the martini, but now I want one) 

 

But the HighRep is not the UN, the UN is part of the PIC. The UN isn’t even on the steering board. 
 

Haiti and DRC are crystalline examples of how not to do international interventions. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But the HighRep is not the UN, the UN is part of the PIC. The UN isn’t even on the steering board. 
 

Haiti and DRC are crystalline examples of how not to do international interventions. 

yes it it, they governed under the mandate with the UN operating. Look, I am not a fan of the UN, have worked with them quite a bit, but to say they would not want it is BS. 

The HighRep WITH UN Authority redrew the Bosnian Flag. 

The solution is not building illegal settlements, nor is it terrorism, So since you think nothing will change, fuck it, let's go. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The other viable solution is the complete and utter defeat of Palestinian resistance and the integration of remaining Palestinians into Israel as a unified state. We are a lot closer to that one happening, for better or worse. It isn't my preference by any means, but I think it is what will happen in the long run. 

 

Yes, the one-state solution is the only one that is viable over the long term. Any country that looks like this has no future by virtue of the laws of physical geography.

Even with the 1949 borders, Palestine was a geopolitical failure waiting to happen. 

What-is-the-West-Bank.png?ssl=1

 

We won't be getting a secular pluralistic democracy once Palestine is fully digested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But the HighRep is not the UN, the UN is part of the PIC. The UN isn’t even on the steering board. 
 

Haiti and DRC are crystalline examples of how not to do international interventions. 

No, but the mandate from the UN guarded it. The UN implements, the highRep decides. And then add a multi-national force. people who believe FAFO. 

I know. yet here we go again on both missions. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

This is honestly terrifying. It radicalizes the impressionable youths worldwide, including those here in the US, Dzhokar Tsarnaev-style. These injustices burn extra long for people like that, and I fear more will be joining their ranks. No matter how vigilant we try to be, there will always be flaws and cracks through which these people can and will slip. This shit better not get trump elected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It also complete absolves Hamas and the terrorism around Israel. There is no solution except extermination of the Jews and the erasure of the state of Israel that will satisfy them. There is no peace offering that will cause Hamas to abandon their terrorism. 
 

There are three major stakeholders here - Israel, Palestinians and Hamas. War is never the solution for peace but it’s absurd to ask Israel to do nothing when the military apparatus of your neighbor is Hamas. Their tactics are next level heinous. It’s pretty hard not to say get every last one of them, whatever it takes.

one state or two state solution, real peace, it all needs to come soon but Hamas needs to be eliminated from the equation. And yes Israel must account for its actions in suppressing people and promoting apartheid. But eradicating Hamas just isn’t something they should apologize for.

 

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is honestly terrifying. It radicalizes the impressionable youths worldwide, including those here in the US, Dzhokar Tsarnaev-style. These injustices burn extra long for people like that, and I fear more will be joining their ranks. No matter how vigilant we try to be, there will always be flaws and cracks through which these people can and will slip. This shit better not get trump elected.

It is strange to me that you seem more troubled with the potential of some imaginary future incident fueled by radicalized terrorists than the one that actually just occurred.
  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, troph said:

It also complete absolves Hamas and the terrorism around Israel. There is no solution except extermination of the Jews and the erasure of the state of Israel that will satisfy them. There is no peace offering that will cause Hamas to abandon their terrorism. 
 

There are three major stakeholders here - Israel, Palestinians and Hamas. War is never the solution for peace but it’s absurd to ask Israel to do nothing when the military apparatus of your neighbor is Hamas. Their tactics are next level heinous. It’s pretty hard not to say get every last one of them, whatever it takes.

one state or two state solution, real peace, it all needs to come soon but Hamas needs to be eliminated from the equation. And yes Israel must account for its actions in suppressing people and promoting apartheid. But eradicating Hamas just isn’t something they should apologize for.

 

No one's asking for them to stop killing Hamas/apologize for killing Hamas.  The issue is that Israel appears to have jumped straight to "fuck it, if we commit genocide/borderline genocide to eliminate Hamas, tough shit for the rest of Palestine."

Dropping leaflets and giving people one day to try and get out (nevermind the fact that there's nowhere really for them to go) is laughably disingenuous.  Just forgo the faux warning and shoot everything that moves at that point.

Israel has every right to defend itself from Hamas.  Telling us that the only viable defense is the immediate leveling of Gaza and borderline genocide is pure bullshit.

  • Hook 'Em 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

May I ask a few horribly naive questions?

  • Are a people entitled to the right of self-governance?
  • What are the internationally recognized borders of Israel? Are they from 1949 or 1967? Are there others? This question is from a completely international legal perspective.
    • How does the relinquishment of West Bank territories by Jordan and the Gaza Split by Egypt affect the questions above from a legal standpoint? In other words, those lands are claimed by no established state actor, except for the emergent (?) occupied peoples. and perhaps Israel?
  • Are international laws that apply to "collective punishment" versus those prohibiting violence toward civilians (i.e., terrorism) enforceable?
  • How does international law treat the issue of the occupation of land acquired through force and the treatment of civilians in those territories?
  • Are the perpetrators of terroristic violence by a potentially unrecognized government for a definitely unrecognized nation subject to international law?
  • To what extent do the atrocities of one unrecognized warring outlaw group comprised of sociopaths versus those of a recognized force that denies basic human rights apply?
Edited by bolverk
hit return key too quickly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

No one's asking for them to stop killing Hamas/apologize for killing Hamas.  The issue is that Israel appears to have jumped straight to "fuck it, if we commit genocide/borderline genocide to eliminate Hamas, tough shit for the rest of Palestine."

Dropping leaflets and giving people one day to try and get out (nevermind the fact that there's nowhere really for them to go) is laughably disingenuous.  Just forgo the faux warning and shoot everything that moves at that point.

Israel has every right to defend itself from Hamas.  Telling us that the only viable defense is the immediate leveling of Gaza and borderline genocide is pure bullshit.

Given Hamas strategies - hiding among civilians, using civilian buildings as military installations, storing and staging weapons in/under schools, residential buildings and hospitals, telling their own people to stay, not lifting a single finger to help protect their own people from harm - not even designating safe zones within Gaza for the world to monitor and Israel and Hamas to stay away from - and targeting Israeli civilians without any pretense of trying to target military personnel only - you tell me how they fight Hamas? Don’t pay lip service and then criticize. Tell me how they do that. 
 

and why the fuck won’t Egypt open their border when the world asks? And why the fuck isn’t Hamas using its resources to help its people move? For fucks sake Hamas isn’t even setting up shelters and saying these spaces are safe we won’t be there and Israel won’t bomb there. The US state department is trying to get a southern border open and Hamas is not cooperating. Not for US citizens and not for their citizens either. No these fuckers instead go to those places that should be safe and use them as sheilds. What the fuck is wrong with them?

Russia has a better track record of protecting civilians than Hamas.

and why is it okay for us to occupy towns and cities across Afghanistan and Iraq for decades to stop terrorism but it’s not okay for Israel to do it to Gaza? 
 

why does israel have to give up territorial integrity to a people who acquiesce to a military force that is a world wide acknowledged terrorist group? 
 

putting aside my own beliefs about how to protect civilians here and what peace should look like, I can say it’s not my place to tell them what to and not to do. What I can say is there needs to be more pressure on Hamas to protect its own people than on Israel because Hamas is a terrorist organization that has no problem sacrificing its people.
 

Edited by troph
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:


It is strange to me that you seem more troubled with the potential of some imaginary future incident fueled by radicalized terrorists than the one that actually just occurred.

To borrow from the DT, you mean this tragedy? Where these kids were killed violently, one on one, their last seconds lived in terrifying fear? This is why all of Israel is seeing red? 
 

The children 💔

Aryeh Alexander Sandler, the late 5-year-old
The late Gabriel Issachar Sandler, 3 years old
The late Daniel Aryeh Wiplich, 16 years old
The late Elad Fogel, 4 years old
The late Hadas Vogel is three months old
The late Yoav Fogel, 10 years old
The late Yonatan Palmer, one year old
The late Shlomo Nativ, 13 years old
The late Segev Paniel Avihil, 15 years old
Yonatan Yitzhak Elder, 16 years old
Yondav Chaim Hirshfeld, 18 years old
The late Naria Cohen, 15 years old
The late Yohai Lifshitz, 18 years old
The late Avraham David Mozes, 16 years old
The late Roy Aharon Roth, 18 years old
The late Eliyahu Pinchas Ashari, 18 years old
The late Mazel Zaribi, 15 years old
The late Daniel Waltz, 16 years old
The late Amir Naim, 17 years old
Shaked Lasker, the late 16-year-old
The late Omer Menashe Pisakhov, 8 years old
Ella Aboxis, the late 17-year-old
The late Rachel Hali ben Abu, 16 years old
The late Oz Israel ben Meir, 14 years old
The late Nofer Horvitz, 16 years old
The late Avihai Levi, 16 years old
The late Aviad Yehuda Mansour, 15 years old
The late Yuval Abba, 4 years old
The late Afik Ohion Zahavi, 3 years old
The late Lior Azoulai, 18 years old
The late Aviel Yitzhak Atch, 3 years old
Two-year-old Dorit from the late Binsan movie
The late Roni Sarah Hatuel, 6 years old
The late Merav Rachel Hatuel is two years old
The late Hila Esther Hatuel, 10 years old
The late Hadar Simcha Hatuel, 9 years old
Son Jonathan Zuckerman, 18 years old
The late Lior Liorinka Niv, 3 years old
The late Gilad Giladi Niv, 11 years old
The late Avraham Shaked is one year old
The late Tomer Almog, 9 years old
The late Habib Dadon, 16 years old
The late Benjamin Bergman, 15 years old
The late Avraham Bar-Or, 12 years old
The late Shmuel Zargari, one year old
Noya Zar, the late Aviv, one year old
Liran Zer Aviv, the late 4-year-old
The late Erez Gizro Hershkowitz, 18 years old
The late Tom Hershko, 15 years old
The late Daniel Harosh, 16 years old
The late Shmuel Taubenfeld, one year old
The late Moran Menachem, 17 years old
The late Yuval Mandelwitz, 13 years old
The late Abigail Lytle, 14 years old
The late Noam Leibovitz, 7 years old
The late Tehila Natanzan, 3 years old
The late Elisheva Meshulami, 16 years old
The late Elizabeth Liz Katzman, 19 years old
Asaf Blondi Tzur Zollinger, the late 17-year-old
The late Smeder Firstetter, 16 years old
The late Asaf Steyer, 10 years old
The late Issachar Dov Reinitz, 9 years old
The late Tal Kerman, 17 years old
The late Shani Avitzedek Abutzadeka, 16 years old
The late Asnat Abramov, 16 years old
Matan Ohion, the late 5-year-old
The late Noam Levi Ohion, 4 years old
The late Yael Ohana, 11 years old
The late Orly Ophir, 15 years old
The late Noa Orbach, 18 years old
The late Dvir Anter, 14 years old
Yaakov Avraham Eliyahu, the late one year old
The late Lidor Ilan, 11 years old
The late Oriya Ilan is one year old
The late Gal Eisenman, 5 years old
Gilila Bugla, 11 years old
The late Hodia Hudish Asraf, 13 years old
The late Noy Enter, 12 years old
The late Shubal Zion Dickstein, 9 years old
The late Elmer Dzbrailov, 16 years old
The late Adi Dahan, 17 years old
Jonathan Gamaliel, 16 years old
The late Hadar Hershkovitz, 14 years old
The late Rachel Gila Teller, 16 years old
The late Gabriel Hoter, 17 years old
The late Shmuel Ephraim Yerushalmi, 17 years old
Atara Livna, 15 years old
The late Racheli Hali Levy, 17 years old
The late Shiraz Nimhad, 6 years old
The late Shaul Nimhad, 15 years old
The late Liran Nimhad is 3 years old
The late Avraham Eliyahu Nicham, 16 years old
Baruch Asher Zvi Markus, 18 years old
Her father, the late Malka, is one year old
The late Nehmi'a Amar, 15 years old
The late Linoi Serousi, 14 years old
Avraham Yosef Haim Seton, the late 17-year-old
The late Gaston Parfi Parfinial, 15 years old
The late Ilan Perlman, 8 years old
Aharon Mordechai Eric Krugliak, 18 years old

The late Sinai Kenan is one year old

The late Tal Tzvi Tlik Kurzweil, 18 years old
The late Ran Koren, 18 years old
The late Gal Koren, 14 years old
Asaf Moshe Tzafira, 18 years old
Avraham Nere' Shebo, deceased, 16 years old
Avishai Yosef Shabo, deceased, 5 years old
The late Keren Shatsky, 14 years old
The late Nathaniel Riahi, 17 years old
The late Erez Shlomo Rond, 18 years old
The late Ofer Ron, 18 years old
The late Yafit Rabivo is 14 years old
The late Daniel Bat-El Shafi, 5 years old
The late Adi Sheeran, 17 years old
Sara Tafarat Shilon, deceased, one year old
The late Gilad Stiglitz, 14 years old
Zvi Yaakov Yisrael Shabu Zal, 12 years old
The late Hadas Turgeman, 14 years old
The late Michael Sherashevsky, 16 years old
The late Assaf Avitan, 15 years old
The late Irina Usadchi, 18 years old
The late Yosef Ish-Ran, 14 years old
The late Yossi Elezra, 18 years old
The late Yuri Goshchin, 18 years old
The late Marina Berkovski, 17 years old
Shoshana Rachel Shushi ben Yishai Zalvat 16
The late Adam Weinstein, 14 years old
Yaakov Israel Danino, deceased, 17 years old
Genia Keren Dorfman, the late 16-year-old
The late Ido Cohen, 18 years old
The late Maria Tagiltsev, 14 years old
The late Tamar Messengisar, 8 years old
The late Jacob Kobi Mendel, 13 years old
The late Aliza Malka, 16 years old
The late Mariana Medvedenko, 16 years old
The late Naftali Ben-Zion Lantzakron, 13 years old
The late Ronen Landau, 17 years old
The late Alexey Lupalo, 17 years old
The late Raya Sahivashordar, 14 years old
Hamda Bracha Sahivashurdar, the late two-year-old
Avraham Yitzchak Sahivashordar, the late 4-year-old
The late Irina Nepomniaschi, 16 years old
The late Yelena Nalimov, 18 years old
The late Yulia Nalimov, 16 years old
The late Avraham Nachman Avrom Nitzani, 18 years old
The late Shalhav Tahiya Pess is one year old
The late Yair Amar, 13 years old
The late Yulia Yael Skalianik, 15 years old
The late Michal Sara Raziel, 16 years old
The late Malka Hana Malki Roth, 15 years old
The late Eliran Rosenberg, 14 years old
The late Simona Rodin, 18 years old
The late Menashe Mani Regev, 14 years old
The late Katrina Arias, 15 years old
Anya Eniota Kazachkov, 16 years old
The late Golan Turgeman, 15 years old
The late Yochaved Shoshan, 10 years old
Yehuda, who is one year old
The late Ofir Rahum, 17 years old
The late Gil-Ad Sha'er, 16 years old
The late Naftali Frankel, 16 years old
The late Adele Beaton, 4 years old

 

If you want to worry about some future, radicalized tragedy, you can start with anyone related to those list of names. But at the very least you don’t fucking ignore it, or wave it away, like some posters want to do. 
 

“I’m not saying what Hamas did was right, but let’s look at how the rural farmers in Israel are treating Palestinian settlers.” 
 

whats happening in Israel to Palestinians isn’t right. What happened in Israel last week was beyond the pale fucking horrifyingly wrong. What’s about to happen/happening in Gaza REALLY isn’t motherfucking right, it’s probably going to be war crimes. Most people here get and acknowledge that. But some posters seem really fucking intent on one-siding the issue. You can’t one side the issue, or wave it the fuck away. 

Edited by SydneyCarton
  • Hook 'Em 4
  • Rage+1 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A week ago we were 5-0, #3 and CR was mostly making fun of Boobert and MGT.  

The phone, the TV, and the news of the world got in the house like a pigeon from Hell.

Edited by Bullneck
I think about The Pretenders from time to time.
  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

A week ago we were 5-0, #3 and CR was mostly making fun of Boobert and MGT.  

The phone, the TV, and the news of the world got in the house like a pigeon from Hell.

I think the sad reality is that as human beings, we let pigeons in the house all the time and are really good at ignoring the shit and havoc they create. It takes world tragedies to snap us out of reverie, but soon we all get exhausted and go back to ignoring politics, climate change, and wanting to help fix problems and help people. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I think the sad reality is that as human beings, we let pigeons in the house all the time and are really good at ignoring the shit and havoc they create. It takes world tragedies to snap us out of reverie, but soon we all get exhausted and go back to ignoring politics, climate change, and wanting to help fix problems and help people. 

I’m all for fixing problems and helping people . . . after the football season is over.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...