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15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Listening to the sound is irrelevant because depending on what it is strapped to, where you are, and any number of factors. And you can’t see the actual projectile in any of the very dark videos. 

Have you seen the confirmed videos of the attack?

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All the videos are dark, because it was night. There is one that showed a barrage of rockets from Gaza followed by a large explosion. 
 

Anyone saying “this looks like a JDAM” is full of shit absent freeze framed examination of stills that show the projectile. I haven’t seen those, anyone who has can provide them. The only place I’ve seen the conclusive “this is a JDAM” are questionable accounts, comparing sounds, often with identical text to other questionable accounts.
 

More on JDAMS:  Israel has JDAM kits that attach to three sizes of gravity bombs that deliver different sizes of warhead from 500-2000 lbs.  There are also plenty of photos of Israeli jets sortieing without the JDAM kits attached, just the gravity bombs. Those would also make a nice noise when released from an F-16 or F-15 at speed and the resulting explosion would look just the same as one with the kit attached. A gravity bomb would also be more likely to go off course and hit, say, a non-mil target, a bomb with a JDAM kit is not likely to miss. 
 

In ordinary circumstances there would be an investigation that is unlikely to happen. We are rather more likely to see better evidence released by Israel (and maybe leaked by the United States) since they have the various intelligence capabilities to time rocket launches with the explosion. There will be no on the ground investigation that gives any confidence, especially since there are fragments of Israeli ordnance all over Gaza already. 
 

But the bottom line is: anyone saying “it’s JDAM” as of this moment is full of shit and dissembling unless there are some real-time images that haven’t been shared yet. Likewise, it’s not conclusive that it was a Palestinian rocket. 

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31 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But the bottom line is: anyone saying “it’s JDAM” as of this moment is full of shit and dissembling unless there are some real-time images that haven’t been shared yet. Likewise, it’s not conclusive that it was a Palestinian rocket. 

Upthread you were speculating the fireball was the result of secondary explosions of munitions stored at the hospital, so please spare us the “full of shit unless there are real time images” nonsense. 
 

No one is talking from a position of incontrovertible evidence here. 

Edited by Anastasis
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Ok, then why

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Social media accounts belonging to the State of Israel and the Israeli ambassador to the US appear to have deleted a video on posts claiming that a rocket fired from within Gaza caused the deadly explosion at Al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City.

The video showed a barrage of rockets being fired, with one appearing to go off-course in a downward trajectory, followed by the flash of an apparent explosion.

Both accounts edited their posts after Aric Toler, a journalist with the New York Times visual investigations team, questioned the time stamps on the video.

Those time stamps indicated that the video was recorded at least 40 minutes after the explosion at the hospital was first publicly reported, Toler said.

It was not clear if the video was removed from the Israeli accounts on X as a result of Toler’s analysis.

Both Israeli accounts kept the original text in their posts following the edit, which repeated the Israeli military’s previous statement that the strike on the hospital was the result of an off-course rocket launched by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad group.
 

 

 

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Just now, InkaUtexas said:

I applauded Biden going when he was meeting with all sides. Now that it is off meeting with the Arab leaders I don't want him to go. I am all in favor of diplomacy, but this will appear as if we only spoke to Israel and that dickhead Bibi. 

 

If Biden going has any chance of de escalation it is worth it. 

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3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

If Biden going has any chance of de escalation it is worth it. 

Agree, but don't that happening at this point. Who ever hit the Hospital has sparked the region. The cancellations are the issue. He can call Bibi and say what he has to say. Meeting with the Arab leaders was key to this trip. Sadly I don't think anyone is really in the mood to talk. 

Oh, and they fucked up a McDonalds. Why never a Burger King? 

 

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4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Agree, but don't that happening at this point. Who ever hit the Hospital has sparked the region. The cancellations are the issue. He can call Bibi and say what he has to say. Meeting with the Arab leaders was key to this trip. Sadly I don't think anyone is really in the mood to talk. 

Oh, and they fucked up a McDonalds. Why never a Burger King? 

 

Might be related:

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/free-meals-israeli-soldiers-divide-mcdonalds-franchises-over-israel-hamas-war-2023-10-17/

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4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

All the videos are dark, because it was night. There is one that showed a barrage of rockets from Gaza followed by a large explosion. 
 

Anyone saying “this looks like a JDAM” is full of shit absent freeze framed examination of stills that show the projectile. I haven’t seen those, anyone who has can provide them. The only place I’ve seen the conclusive “this is a JDAM” are questionable accounts, comparing sounds, often with identical text to other questionable accounts.
 

More on JDAMS:  Israel has JDAM kits that attach to three sizes of gravity bombs that deliver different sizes of warhead from 500-2000 lbs.  There are also plenty of photos of Israeli jets sortieing without the JDAM kits attached, just the gravity bombs. Those would also make a nice noise when released from an F-16 or F-15 at speed and the resulting explosion would look just the same as one with the kit attached. A gravity bomb would also be more likely to go off course and hit, say, a non-mil target, a bomb with a JDAM kit is not likely to miss. 
 

In ordinary circumstances there would be an investigation that is unlikely to happen. We are rather more likely to see better evidence released by Israel (and maybe leaked by the United States) since they have the various intelligence capabilities to time rocket launches with the explosion. There will be no on the ground investigation that gives any confidence, especially since there are fragments of Israeli ordnance all over Gaza already. 
 

But the bottom line is: anyone saying “it’s JDAM” as of this moment is full of shit and dissembling unless there are some real-time images that haven’t been shared yet. Likewise, it’s not conclusive that it was a Palestinian rocket. 

The attack occurred at 6:59PM local time

 

Here is video of a newscast whose feed was live at the time of the attack (bottom right shows the time of day, as indicated in the Grant Smith Ellis tweet). The area of Gaza City in which the hospital was located was experiencing airstrikes, and there's no ground-to-air weaponry, "failed" or otherwise. At 4:23 of the video, when the anchor is in a split screen speaking with various correspondents, the first of several strikes in the same vicinity can be seen.
 

I have a hard time believing anything besides the most likely explanation, which is that the same hospital Israel had shelled days ago was targeted by an airstrike.

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3 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Agree, was just a comment. Saw that earlier. Um, you want me to go to war and you send me a squished Big Mac? Nah, can I get some falafel and hummus. 

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37 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I applauded Biden going when he was meeting with all sides. Now that it is off meeting with the Arab leaders I don't want him to go. I am all in favor of diplomacy, but this will appear as if we only spoke to Israel and that dickhead Bibi. 

 

This is all true but he will be talking with Jordan and Egypt by phone on his way home. That won’t change any appearances but it can be substantive work.  

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10 minutes ago, troph said:

This is all true but he will be talking with Jordan and Egypt by phone on his way home. That won’t change any appearances but it can be substantive work.  

yeah, so he can call them. In the Arab streets this will go down poorly. Shit, I get on Teams call with 20+ all the time. They cannot do this virtual now since so many said nope, we are not going. Go when a message can be delivered. Something real. Not a photo op. Leave Blinken over there. That is why we have a Secretary of State. 

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9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

yeah, so he can call them. In the Arab streets this will go down poorly. Shit, I get on Teams call with 20+ all the time. They cannot do this virtual now since so many said nope, we are not going. Go when a message can be delivered. Something real. Not a photo op. Leave Blinken over there. That is why we have a Secretary of State. 

I agree. I was just stating that it appears lines of communication are not closed.

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3 minutes ago, troph said:

I agree. I was just stating that it appears lines of communication are not closed.

If they are not going then they are. We have ambassadors who can share messages. We have Sec State who can go to meet in person. The US President getting of AF1 in Israel is not a good image. Meeting with Bibi is worse. Wanna see riots across the region, and the EU, go on this jaunt. 

Made sense before today. 

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1 hour ago, Boss Hogg said:

At this point does it even matter who did it? It doesn’t matter to all the people in the streets across the Arab world. They will never be convinced that it was anyone other than Israel. Bad moon rising 

No.  Even if we get conclusive proof that it was an errant Hamas rocket, or even an intentional false flag op, the people demonstrating in Jordan and other places either won't hear it or won't believe it.

I'm afraid there's no putting the shit back in the horse this time.

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2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

If they are not going then they are. We have ambassadors who can share messages. We have Sec State who can go to meet in person. The US President getting of AF1 in Israel is not a good image. Meeting with Bibi is worse. Wanna see riots across the region, and the EU, go on this jaunt. 

Made sense before today. 

we can't afford MFA but we can afford to prop up Israel.

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1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

If they are not going then they are. We have ambassadors who can share messages. We have Sec State who can go to meet in person. The US President getting of AF1 in Israel is not a good image. Meeting with Bibi is worse. Wanna see riots across the region, and the EU, go on this jaunt. 

Made sense before today. 

I agree. I was just stating that it appears lines of communication are not closed.

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More on JDAMS:  Israel has JDAM kits that attach to three sizes of gravity bombs that deliver different sizes of warhead from 500-2000 lbs.  There are also plenty of photos of Israeli jets sortieing without the JDAM kits attached, just the gravity bombs. Those would also make a nice noise when released from an F-16 or F-15 at speed and the resulting explosion would look just the same as one with the kit attached. A gravity bomb would also be more likely to go off course and hit, say, a non-mil target, a bomb with a JDAM kit is not likely to miss. 

This is my theory, Israel is using dumb bombs, this is indisputable based on F-16 video evidence, this in itself proves they are not being safe with their targeting, also it could also be an errant artillery shell. (though less likely due to the fireball)

That said the lying about the rocket is also extremely bad, I don't think a rocket can be going supersonic in its ascent phase. The cameraman would have noticed. Whatever hit the hospital was in the terminal phase. Having EC-2 Hawkeyes in the area I am certain Biden knows if it was a plane though, this was an egg in his face and should take things seriously.

Edited by linux
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Joe told Netanyahu, "It appears that it was done by the other team, not you, but some people are not sure". Hope he is right and has solid intel that it was not the IDF; otherwise, and maybe regardless of the truth, he just stepped in it if it was not Hamas. 

Quote

"It appears that it was done by the other team, not you, but some people are not sure," U.S. President Joe Biden said about Tuesday's deadly explosion at a Gaza hospital, alongside Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday morning in Tel Aviv.

The president said he was "Deeply sad and outraged by the explosion in the hospital in Gaza," adding that "we have to also bear in mind that Hamas does not represent all Palestinian people, and has brought them only suffering."

Biden reaffirmed his support for Israel, saying “I want to say to the people of Israel: Their courage, their commitment, their bravery, is stunning, it’s really stunning. I’m proud to be here.

"I'm very happy to be back in Israel. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to having a thorough discussion of where we go from here," Biden said.

In remarks before Biden spoke, Netanyahu said "Just as the civilized world united to defeat the Nazis and to defeat ISIS, it must be united to defeat Hamas. The forces of civilization will prevail for our sake, for your sake...and for the sake of peace and security."

 

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Now that it’s morning Palestinian TV footage is coming out and it should make anyone who is still dug in on “it was a JDAM/MK 80 bomb) take pause.”

Eliot Higgins from Bellingcat:

 

 

Honestly hard to see how 500 people died here.  And hard to believe a camera crew didn’t capture structure damage if that happened. 
 

But— embassies got attacked and Arab leaders called off a peace summit so it’s clear the news got a reaction.

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Definitely doesn’t seem like this could’ve been a bomb. Maybe one of those cars had explosives in it that got set off by the shrapnel from the disabled rocket? Who knows. But it definitely seems like the Gazan health ministry exaggerated the casualties.

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The problem is you have American elected government officials that do not care at all what the truth is.  they have repeated lies over, and over, and over until now the GOP as a whole is the most misinformed group of voters probably since Hitler was elected.  So truth has taken a big fall from grace, because American politicians have proven that a lie is as good as the truth when sold repeatedly by people in power.  Hamas is in power.  So they say whatever, and this is reinforced again and again.  Just like here in the United States.

Sadly it was less than a decade ago when the truth really did matter in the US.  Now we are a lot more like the Middle East where you CHOOSE "your truth."

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At this point there has been a torrent of evidence showing that the hospital blast was not caused by an Israeli air strike and that although it was a mass casualty event, 500 people are unlikely to have been killed. 
 

The burden should shift now to anyone who wants to claim otherwise to provide something other than the statements of Gaza authorities. 

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3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

At this point there has been a torrent of evidence showing that the hospital blast was not caused by an Israeli air strike and that although it was a mass casualty event, 500 people are unlikely to have been killed. 
 

The burden should shift now to anyone who wants to claim otherwise to provide something other than the statements of Gaza authorities. 

Here you go. This guy says it seems like a JDAM.

15 hours ago, chainsaw said:

Have seen the video of the strike? I don't think their improvised munitions look like the this, which seems to be a JDAM.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/17/israel-hamas-war-news-gaza/#link-UVNAJKOHXRFCNC2Z4IPFMCIL54

 

 

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23 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

At this point there has been a torrent of evidence showing that the hospital blast was not caused by an Israeli air strike and that although it was a mass casualty event, 500 people are unlikely to have been killed. 
 

The burden should shift now to anyone who wants to claim otherwise to provide something other than the statements of Gaza authorities. 

It landed in a parking lot and there’s no crater. There’s no debate anymore. 

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So Biden last night/today said his proof that the hospital destruction wasn’t from Israel but from Islamic Jihad (or whatever) wasn’t from the Israelis but from the Pentagon.  So, if true, the Pentagon and Israel are saying they have proof it wasn’t Israel and Hamas says it was and we have people on this thread believing Hamas because, why? I’m not saying Israel hasn’t done bad stuff ever but in this case it seems like they didn’t blow up the hospital and I notice everyone on this thread railing against them yesterday isn’t on this thread today saying, “my bad, guess it wasn’t them”.  Quite telling.

Edited by Beantown Express 2.0
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