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1 hour ago, statsman said:

(Added because it’s too late to edit earlier post):

For the record, I believe Frederick Douglas’ anger was every bit as fierce as Louverture’s. He applied it very differently. 

We didn’t get Louverture in the United States because in Haiti, there were about 10-1 enslaved people to the rest of the population, and the demographics of the United States and American South were quite different.  The U.S. for sure deserved it, but it would have ended in a terrible bloodbath going the other way. (And of course Louvertute was not part of the massacres in Haiti, which happened after his death). 
 

There’s some lessons in there on the wisdom and morality of starting a war you can’t win against a force that you can’t defeat, which will almost assuredly hurt your own people worse than the enemy. Even if (unlike Hamas/Israel/Palestine in general), there’s no gray area about who is “right” and who is “wrong.” 

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6 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're not understanding his point. They turn to these people out of desperation, because they appear to them to be the only ones willing to offer any resources. It's a rational decision even if it's a bad one.

This objectively untrue, as I posted the actual aid figures to Palestine and where they come from below. It’s also backwards logic as there is a huge constituency, in Europe especially, that badly wants the cover to increase aid to Palestine in a big way and they can’t— because of the existence of Hamas and in no small part because of Hamas’ alignment with pariahs like Iran and Russia.  That choice almost certainly costs the Palestine people far more in aid than they get. 
 

It is rational in one sense, in that no Western nation will either arm a terrorist organization or will finance a life of luxury for leaders of said organization. Russia, Iran, and some petrostates are happy to do so. There’s rationality, in a sense of pure self-interest and advancement of ideological (destroy Israel, kill the Jews) but not so much rational if the goal is helping Palestinian people and advancing peace. 
 

You will see a great many of the things people want—- pressure for peace talks and a two state solution, less willingness to arm Israel, and a flow of aid “the likes of which have never been seen before,” if Hamas is removed and replaced by a PA that renounces violence and the aim of eliminating Israel. 

And the deep irony here is that Bibi has resisted doing this because of precisely what I wrote above for YEARS. And he’s now in a spot where he’s almost forced to do so,  but the very visceral human cost of using violence at a level that would be required is going to result in a very unhappy medium indeed. This problem is not unfamiliar to conflicts like this, with an asymmetry of power where the weaker counter- party loses everything if they concede. 

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10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This objectively untrue, as I posted the actual aid figures to Palestine and where they come from below. It’s also backwards logic as there is a huge constituency, in Europe especially, that badly wants the cover to increase aid to Palestine in a big way and they can’t— because of the existence of Hamas and in no small part because of Hamas’ alignment with pariahs like Iran and Russia.  That choice almost certainly costs the Palestine people far more in aid than they get. 
 

It is rational in one sense, in that no Western nation will either arm a terrorist organization or will finance a life of luxury for leaders of said organization. Russia, Iran, and some petrostates are happy to do so. There’s rationality, in a sense of pure self-interest and advancement of ideological (destroy Israel, kill the Jews) but not so much rational if the goal is helping Palestinian people and advancing peace. 
 

You will see a great many of the things people want—- pressure for peace talks and a two state solution, less willingness to arm Israel, and a flow of aid “the likes of which have never been seen before,” if Hamas is removed and replaced by a PA that renounces violence and the aim of eliminating Israel. 

And the deep irony here is that Bibi has resisted doing this because of precisely what I wrote above for YEARS. And he’s now in a spot where he’s almost forced to do so,  but the very visceral human cost of using violence at a level that would be required is going to result in a very unhappy medium indeed. This problem is not unfamiliar to conflicts like this, with an asymmetry of power where the weaker counter- party loses everything if they concede. 

Dude, this is why I call you an annoying debatelord. I say "Palestinians probably perceive Iran/Russia as their only sources of material aid". I then say it's a rational point of view to take even if it's illogical and/or incorrect. You even said it in a later sentence, it is the pure rationality of self-interest/survival.

Your average Palestinian on the ground in Gaza doesn't have those figures in front of them for you to mock or ridicule then with, and you know that, so you're simply trying to use my rather obvious point to just spew debatelord energy for no good reason.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, I'm just begging you to stop trying to debate everyone, because when you do that you're just an annoying bludgeon no one wants to engage with.

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17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Dude, this is why I call you an annoying debatelord. I say "Palestinians probably perceive Iran/Russia as their only sources of material aid". I then say it's a rational point of view to take even if it's illogical and/or incorrect. You even said it in a later sentence, it is the pure rationality of self-interest/survival.

Your average Palestinian on the ground in Gaza doesn't have those figures in front of them for you to mock or ridicule then with, and you know that, so you're simply trying to use my rather obvious point to just spew debatelord energy for no good reason.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, I'm just begging you to stop trying to debate everyone, because when you do that you're just an annoying bludgeon no one wants to engage with.


Well the average Palestinian doesn’t make these decisions, so it doesn’t really matter what figures they are. 

 

In between your personal insults you raise some interesting points without meaning to, mainly about how bad lots of regular people are at friend/foe identification. It’s almost like there are external actors and motivations beyond the people you’re mad at that are stoking this. 

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1 minute ago, Nivek said:


No, that is a fucking horrible idea.

Why? Nearly anyone else other than the IDF seems like a good idea to me.

 

‘A new Nakba’: settler violence forces Palestinians out of West Bank villages
Communities who have clung on for decades are leaving their homes in the face of rising attrition by Israelis

Life in Zanuta, a Palestinian village atop a windy ridge in the desolate south Hebron hills, deep in the occupied West Bank, has never been easy. The community are mostly herders who raise goats and sheep through the barren landscape’s scorching summers and freezing winters, and who have steadfastly refused to leave their homes despite the mounting difficulties posed by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) soldiers on one hand and radical Israeli settlers on the other.

But after weeks of intense settler violence in the aftermath of the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 October, Zanuta’s 150 residents have made a collective decision to leave. Armed settlers – some in reservist army uniforms, some covering their faces – have begun breaking into their homes at night, beating up adults, destroying and stealing belongings, and terrifying the children.

After decades of a desperate fight to cling on to their land, the community has decided they have lost.

On Monday, men and women cried as they dismantled their homes and haphazardly packed solar panels, animal feed and personal belongings on to pickup trucks. The noise of the demolition drowned out the bleating from the animal pens and threw up dust and debris that tore at the eyes and throat.

“It is a new Nakba,” said Issa Ahmad Baghdad, 71, referring to the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians in 1948 after the creation of Israel. “My family are going to Rafat. But we don’t know anyone there. We don’t know what to tell the children.”

In the Gaza Strip, where Israel has launched a campaign to destroy Hamas, the militant group that killed 1,400 people on its rampage through southern Israel, trapped civilians cannot leave; in the West Bank, they are being forced from their homes.

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Masafer Yatta, a collection of shepherding hamlets including Zanuta, is in area C, the sparsely populated 60% of the West Bank under full Israeli control and under threat of annexation. Palestinian water cisterns, solar panels, roads and buildings here are frequently demolished on the grounds that they do not have building permits, which are nearly impossible to obtain, while surrounding illegal Israeli settlements flourish.

Israeli settlers herding sheep had in effect taken control of 10% of area C in about five years, according to research by Kerem Navot, an NGO monitoring settler activity, but in the last year alone, about 110,000 dunams, or 110 sq km (42 sq miles), of the West Bank has been annexed by settlers on herding outposts. By way of comparison, the entirety of the built-up Israeli settlement areas constructed since the occupation began in 1967 cover only 80 sq km.

“We have had hard times in the village since the settlers started the Mitarim farm across the valley three years ago. It has been harder to take the sheep out, and the settler young men destroy things like crops, or steal sheep, or call the army to come and harass us. But now they are coming into our homes. My daughters are terrified,” said Amin Hamed al-Hudarat, 41, as he began to cry.

“I had thought we might need to leave before, but we did not expect it to happen like this. I can’t believe that by tomorrow I am going to leave my home. We are going to camp on the outskirts of Deira, but I don’t know what will happen next, what I will do for work, what we will do with the sheep. My whole life is in Zanuta.

“The community is breaking up. I don’t know when I will see my neighbours to chat and tell stories and drink coffee again.”

After years of legal battles, Israel’s supreme court ruled last May in favour of the IDF that a 3,000-hectare (7,410-acre) area of Masafer Yatta would remain a military training zone, known as Firing Zone 918, a ruling illegal under international law and one of the single biggest expulsion decisions since the occupation began. Since then, the army and Israeli settlers have steadily increased the pressure to try to force the Palestinian community in the Firing Zone, as well as those living in dozens of nearby villages, to leave.

Demolitions of Palestinian houses, roads and infrastructure have increased since the court’s ruling, while shepherds say they are regularly told by the army to leave grazing land, which is then taken over by settlers, or settlers chase them away. Water and animal-feed deliveries, as well as visitors from charities and leftwing Israeli activists who used to help deter settler violence, have been turned back by the army. Since 7 October, settlers have begun beating and using live fire against the activists, as well as Palestinians.

New checkpoints have completely isolated villages such as Jimba, making it difficult for residents to leave. Palestinians are held up and questioned by soldiers sometimes for hours at a time, and dozens of unlicensed cars have been confiscated, forcing residents to use donkeys instead.

Under this campaign of attrition, some families had already made the difficult decision to leave, most of them for the nearby town of Yatta. During the Guardian’s visit to the area a month ago, two families in Khirbet ar-Ratheem, near the Asael settlement, insisted they would not leave, despite the pressure; today, they have gone.

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Now that entire villages such as Zanuta have decided to leave, it is feared there will be a domino effect in the area, said Nasser Nawadja, a field researcher from the village of Susiya for the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem. He has been beaten and arrested many times during his work.

“Settler violence is now worse than ever. Sometimes, they are wearing reservist uniforms, and we don’t know who is the army and who is a settler any more,” he said.

“The people in Tuba were given a 24-hour ultimatum to leave, or the settlers said they would come back and kill them. That was on Saturday. We don’t know what will happen next.”

According to B’Tselem, in the last three weeks 858 Palestinians from 32 different communities, and 13 entire communities in total, have been forcibly displaced. The numbers increase every day.

The international community, including the US, has issued strong statements to the Israeli government that it must “take measures to protect Palestinians from attacks by Israeli extremist settlers”. “These attacks are unacceptable, those responsible need to be stopped and held accountable,” a communique from the state department in Washington said on Monday.

However, Palestinians and Israeli activists say they have little faith in the Israeli authorities. According to UN data from September, in four out of five communities where residents had filed police complaints about settler violence, only 6% knew of any follow-up.

For some, it is too little, too late. In Zanuta on Monday, pickup trucks trundled down the dirt track to the main road, full to the brim; they came back empty a few hours later to collect more belongings from the destroyed community. Three Israeli soldiers stood next to an armoured patrol vehicle at the turnoff to the main road, silently watching.

“I don’t know when I will be able to come back again,” said Hudarat. “I think I am saying goodbye to my home for ever.”

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12 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Why? Nearly anyone else other than the IDF seems like a good idea to me.

 

Yeah, I don’t think sending Americans and Europeans to pacify a populace hopped up on fifty years of propaganda about “Crusaders” is going to work out for anyone.

A third party isn’t an awful idea. There’s an argument for giving the neo-Ottomans (Erdogan) and the people who think they miss the Ottomans what they want just to see what happens. 

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Tons of testimonials from former IDF soldiers.

https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

Breaking the Silence is an organization of veteran soldiers who have served in the Israeli military since the start of the Second Intifada and have taken it upon themselves to expose the public to the reality of everyday life in the Occupied Territories. We endeavor to stimulate public debate about the price paid for a reality in which young soldiers face a civilian population on a daily basis, and are engaged in the control of that population’s everyday life. Our work aims to bring an end to the occupation.

 

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2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Yeah, I don’t think sending Americans and Europeans to pacify a populace hopped up on fifty years of propaganda about “Crusaders” is going to work out for anyone.

A third party isn’t an awful idea. There’s an argument for giving the neo-Ottomans (Erdogan) and the people who think they miss the Ottomans what they want just to see what happens. 

 

Good point. I just don't want the IDF doing it. I'd also like to see that happen in the West Bank, but I think Israel is hellbound determined to annex Area C and don't want to relinquish their control over it.

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14 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Why? Nearly anyone else other than the IDF seems like a good idea to me.

I seriously doubt Biden would step on that geopolitical turd. He isn't putting U.S. troops in Palestine. The Palestinians probably don't see a difference between the IDF and the U.S. military.

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12 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You’re a good poster.  I think if we want to practice good info hygiene it’s worth looking at what this guy was posting literally at the moments the kibbutz massacre was unfolding (Hamas propaganda on the ground, in real time). 
 

 

Yeah, I didn't look him up before posting. I was just disgusted by how the IDF and Israeli extremists were treating Palestinians in those videos.

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/israeli-tiktok-reenact-video-of-blindfolded-idf-detainees/

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52 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I meant to only post the second tweet without realizing it was part of a pair. 

 

Quanah sat down close to him and said 'Move over.' Miller moved. Parker moved with him, and again sat down close to him. ‘Move over,’ he repeated. This continued until Miller had fallen off the log. 'Like that,' said Quanah.

 

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:


Well the average Palestinian doesn’t make these decisions, so it doesn’t really matter what figures they are. 

 

In between your personal insults you raise some interesting points without meaning to, mainly about how bad lots of regular people are at friend/foe identification. It’s almost like there are external actors and motivations beyond the people you’re mad at that are stoking this. 

I apologize for the insult. We're not at a disagreement here.

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An Israel Defense Forces statement said the strike on Jabalia, Gaza's largest refugee camp, had killed Ibrahim Biari. It said he was a ringleader of what it called the "murderous terror attack" on Oct. 7.

Palestinian health officials said at least 50 Palestinians were killed in the refugee camp blast and 150 wounded. Hamas spokesperson Hazem Qassem denied any senior commander there and called the claim an Israeli pretext for killing civilians.

A Hamas statement said there were 400 dead and injured in Jabalia, which houses families of refugees from wars with Israel dating back to 1948. Reuters could not independently verify the reported casualty figures.

The blast left large craters in a rubble filled area surrounded by wrecked concrete buildings.

Israel has sent repeated warnings to Gaza residents to evacuate northern areas and while many have gone south, many have not.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-it-fires-israeli-troops-pressing-gaza-ground-assault-2023-10-31/

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8 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I took it to mean the Israeli people outside of their whack job government.  Regular civilians.

I suppose it’s about as true of Israeli citizens as it is of American citizens. They have their share of the populace that share the extremist ideology of their whack job government just like we have our MAGA crowd. 

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A hearty LOL at this fucking dipshit. A junior at Cornell is by definition one of the most privileged people on this planet and he just learned the hard way that none of that post-9/11 CT infrastructure disappeared.  Enjoy never having a normal adult life, asshole.

Quote

The complaint alleges that Dai posted threatening messages to the Cornell section of an online discussion site, including posts calling for the deaths of Jewish people and a post that said “gonna shoot up 104 west.” According to information provided by Cornell University Police and other public information, 104 West is a Cornell University dining hall that caters predominantly to Kosher diets and is located next to the Cornell Jewish Center, which provides residences for Cornell students. In another post, Dai allegedly threatened to “stab” and “slit the throat” of any Jewish males he sees on campus, to rape and throw off a cliff any Jewish females, and to behead any Jewish babies. In that same post, Dai threatened to “bring an assault rifle to campus and shoot all you pig jews.” 

 

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You’re a good poster.  I think if we want to practice good info hygiene it’s worth looking at what this guy was posting literally at the moments the kibbutz massacre was unfolding (Hamas propaganda on the ground, in real time). 
 

 

Israel doesn’t treat them like equal humans. That’s not propaganda. That’s fact. 

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

I seriously doubt Biden would step on that geopolitical turd. He isn't putting U.S. troops in Palestine. The Palestinians probably don't see a difference between the IDF and the U.S. military.

Yeah, he’s not going to put U.S. service members at risk. The Israelis are never going to allow fair living conditions to the Palestinian people. There’s not going to be a Palestinian state because Israel doesn’t want one. They’ll just offer shitty deals that no one in their right mind would ever accept then blame the Palestinians for why there’s no Palestinian state. Just like they’ve always done. Whatever comes after Hamas is eliminated, if Hamas is eliminated, will still involve the Palestinian people being treated like shit. Our support of Israel already makes us complicit in that arrangement. Putting U.S. troops on the ground would just make them targets. Sooner or later someone would get killed and then we risk getting sucked into a larger conflict. It would just be asking for trouble to get our own troops involved. 

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30 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

A hearty LOL at this fucking dipshit. A junior at Cornell is by definition one of the most privileged people on this planet and he just learned the hard way that none of that post-9/11 CT infrastructure disappeared.  Enjoy never having a normal adult life, asshole.

 

 

From the comments:

"I wonder if he's going to find federal prison as "exhilarating" as his professor found the slaughter, rape, and kidnapping of Jews."

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2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You’re a good poster.  I think if we want to practice good info hygiene it’s worth looking at what this guy was posting literally at the moments the kibbutz massacre was unfolding (Hamas propaganda on the ground, in real time). 
 

 

Are you suggesting that the TikTok videos Bolverk posted are fake?  That Israel isn’t using this as a opportunity to expand settlements in the West Bank?

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Honestly, can anyone think of a solution to this that doesn't involve either the dissolution of Israel or the end of Muslim extremists?  

Sadly, I can't and neither of those things are happening without a nuclear war.

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1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Honestly, can anyone think of a solution to this that doesn't involve either the dissolution of Israel or the end of Muslim extremists?  

Sadly, I can't and neither of those things are happening without a nuclear war.

A two state solution which all sides agree to would be a tremendous development.

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A two state solution which all sides agree to would be a tremendous development.

It would be.
It won’t happen. It’s crystal clear that the opposing positions are intent on genocide of one or genocide of the other. They’ll eventually get their way. Humanity is shit. This is what we do.
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10 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

A hearty LOL at this fucking dipshit. A junior at Cornell is by definition one of the most privileged people on this planet and he just learned the hard way that none of that post-9/11 CT infrastructure disappeared.  Enjoy never having a normal adult life, asshole.

 

What a fucking dipshit. Nobody ever seems to get that fucking around leads to finding out.

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11 hours ago, freyguy said:

so Cornell does admit dumbasses.

A land-grant college or university is an institution that has been designated by its state legislature or Congress to receive the benefits of the Morrill Acts of 1862, 1890, and 1994.

The original mission of these institutions, as set forth in the first Morrill Act, was to teach agriculture, military tactics, and the mechanic arts as well as classical studies so members of the working classes could obtain a liberal, practical education.

As most of us know, Texas A&M is the land grant college for the State of Texas. In many states it's the school with "State" in the name, like Louisiana State, or Ohio State.

Any guesses on the Land Grant college for the State of New York? Yep, you guessed it...It's Cornell. So there you have it...Cornell is the aggy of the Ivy League. 

 

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19 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well that was interesting. ... CNN then cuts to two other anchors and said they lost the feeds for Wolf Blitzer and the interview and cut to commercial. Seems to me like they didn't like the IDF answer.

Dropping a feed is CNN's go to move when an interviewee counters the narrative they wish to push.

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36 minutes ago, Homercles said:

This whole thing just makes me sick…or maybe it’s also the Halloween hangover.  The Ukrainians are such easy people to root for, compared to this festering mess.  

And yet, one party wants to stop funding their fight for survival. 

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13 hours ago, Satchel said:

An Israel Defense Forces statement said the strike on Jabalia, Gaza's largest refugee camp, had killed Ibrahim Biari. It said he was a ringleader of what it called the "murderous terror attack" on Oct. 7.

Palestinian health officials said at least 50 Palestinians were killed in the refugee camp blast and 150 wounded. Hamas spokesperson Hazem Qassem denied any senior commander there and called the claim an Israeli pretext for killing civilians.

A Hamas statement said there were 400 dead and injured in Jabalia, which houses families of refugees from wars with Israel dating back to 1948. Reuters could not independently verify the reported casualty figures.

The blast left large craters in a rubble filled area surrounded by wrecked concrete buildings.

Israel has sent repeated warnings to Gaza residents to evacuate northern areas and while many have gone south, many have not.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-it-fires-israeli-troops-pressing-gaza-ground-assault-2023-10-31/

It appears that Israel is doing an impressive job of obscuring what is going on in Gaza. 

Hamas has zero credibility, so whatever they say is worthless.

In Jabalia, there are a lot of dead non-combatants. I have mixed feelings about this. It appears Israel was after a military target because they didn't carpet bomb the place. Could it also be that Israel is trying to scare the indigent population out of the area maybe never to return? Both?

Is the number of civilian dead part of a protocol? Are 200 casualties include 50 dead an acceptable number for an airstrike? A few days ago, there were 700 air attacks in 24 hours. If there is a protocol as described, then many thousands of casualties including deaths result each day from airstrikes alone.

If a target presents an important threat to Israel, they must attack and destroy that threat. Err on the side of thoroughness even if it means collateral damage. 

But 700 air attacks in one day? I imagine a few thousand since the war began. This level of thoroughness includes punishment, I believe. The is why I don't want the US standing close and in tight unity with the perpetrating nation.

This isn't a schoolyard as the world is so often presented to the public. Good friends fighting bullies and sticking together. All allies must be assessed regularly to see if they measure up. I don't think Israel meets the mark at the moment. 

I suppose we could approve selling weaponry to Israel on some scale. Our efforts should be almost exclusively humanitarian in nature. I don't want our name on this slaughter. It's already on too many others.

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