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hayden_horn

lordy i hope there are tapes (woodward book/tapes)

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1 minute ago, Lobo said:

Well played.  Didn't even think of that.  Creepy thing is Woodward's editor's name is Susan.  

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I don't want to sound as if I think Woodward might not have had some small effect on Covid mortality rates had he dropped those tapes in, say, early April.  Some Americans would have been woken up.  But there are some other things we have to acknowledge:  anyone who wasn't aware how serious this thing was by then is either brainwashed or flat out stupid.  We were apoplectic on surly (non_DT) well before that 2nd clip from March 19.  Hell, most of us approved of the unfortunate necessity for Austin to shut down SXSW on March 9.  The information was out there.

Furthermore, we don't know the scope of Woodward's interviews.  He obviously wasn't just talking about coronavirus -- if he were, the book title would be more pointed than "Rage".  And, it's not as if the coronavirus is the only existential threat facing the United States this year.  There is election meddling and voter suppression, police brutality, race relations, the economy and Trump's desperate efforts to keep it afloat,  immigration matters including The Wall, trade wars and their effects on Americans, Trump's attitude towards the military, the list goes on.  Perhaps Woodward felt he has bombshells on multiple fronts, and given that combined with a reasonable perspective that he wasn't going to add anything to the discussion about a growing pandemic, it made sense to keep everything packaged together.  And, money.

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1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

JFC.  I don't even have words.

Edit: and the comments are fucking mindblowing.  FUCK.

Obviously not the type of comments you are talking about, but this one got me

 

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12 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Anyone with two working brain cells knew that trump and the GOP were lying about the severity of Covid.  The death cult was going to death cult no matter what.

Y'all seem to be under the impression that everyone follows the news like we do. Roughly 30 million Americans voted in the Republican primaries in 2016 and roughly 35 million Americans voted in the Democratic primaries this year. That's how many Americans pay close attention to politics. That's only about 20% of total Americans and about 31% of American adults. Many of the rest had no idea what covid was until lockdowns were announced. Many because they don't have two working brain cells, others just because they're not invested in politics and have more immediate shit to worry about most of the time than what's been going on in China. These people tend to think that most politicians are responsible adults and don't understand how insane Trump or the GOP have become and believed it when they heard Republicans saying this was just like the flu.  I don't give two fucks if the polls wouldn't look one bit different today had Woodward released the tape in late March, I care about the people who couldn't convince their parents or siblings or friends to take this seriously enough. I never did manage to convince my mom (who is not a Trumper) to take it seriously but have been lucky so far, but thousands of people haven't been that lucky.

I'm bitching about Woodward because his actions are perfectly representative of how we got Trump in the first place. Too many in the media just treat politics like it's a game with no fucking stakes, because they don't understand how people's lives are impacted. It's just reality tv to them, just like it is to Trump and his cult. They made Trump. They enabled him at every step of the way because he was good for their ratings and more interesting than watching Scott Walker talk about how he eats ham on white bread for lunch every day. They downplayed the very real danger he posed and they treated his insanity as the mere eccentricities of a successful businessman. Trump is the immediate problem, but if we don't get a lot of shit fixed, including our political media, they'll give us someone worse.

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1 hour ago, kevwun said:

I hope the coronavirus comments were recorded.

It's my understanding everything was recorded. I hope the comments about Kim telling Trump how he murdered his own uncle are made public. 

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20 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

i'm starting this as a new thread, because i think this is a much bigger story worthy of its own thread and not to get lost in the daily minutiae of donald trump's 2020 thread.

this is truly incredible.

the president sat down with a reporter, basically in an open ended unstructured type of discussion. he did this with not just any journalist, he did it with the guy who helped bring down richard fucking nixon! and if you're old enough to remember (i'm not), or if you've studied watergate, what actually brought nixon down? it was the fucking tapes! and the president agreed to being taped by this reporter who wrote the fucking roadmap on how to take down a sitting president!

why on earth would trump agree to do this?

i'm a little late here, but the answer is because he's a complete fucking retard.

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Trump getting reelected would be a far bigger disaster to America and cause far greater suffering and death than whatever lives might have been altered if he Had released this in March. Honestly, I doubt much difference would have been made because the only people stupid enough by late March to think it wasn't a danger weren't going to be swayed by Woodward. 

But now that over 200k Americans have died and millions have been hospitalized or very very I'll there are millions of Americans who have been personally damaged and sustained loss or suffering because of the virus. Releasing this information now might resonate with people who have personally suffered and if just enough either 1) decide to not vote because of it or 2) decide to vote against trump because of it then it could be enough to soundly defeat him. Only time will tell 

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Perhaps an apples to oranges comparison but the animosity towards Woodward reminds me of my own beef with Fauci who likely heard all the same things from Trump as Woodward but instead of pulling the fire alarm, decided to downplay the virus publicly to not get fired.

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1 hour ago, kevwun said:

I don't ever watch the news, so I missed them.  Glad they were.

I hope we’re able to have college football this season with all this Covid stuff going on.  

At this point, I can’t imagine the Big12 is going to schedule games for this season.  

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1 hour ago, Red Five said:

Look I don't want to cause a panic here or anything but OMG THE ELECTION IS GOING TO BE RIGGED AND BIDEN IS GOING TO DESTROY ALL OF YOUR HOMES!

Ok Mr. President, what about the pandemic killing 1000 people a day?

Eh, I wouldn't worry about it. Shit happens, amirite?

It is what it is.

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35 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Some people are trying to do that. This 60 minutes episode is going to be epic. Trumps approval could drop below 40%. If that happens the senate falls and likely many state legislatures flip blue as well, especially if there is more stuff to come

 

 

 

 

I'll have what Sawbonz is having. Fuck it, make it a double.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Perhaps an apples to oranges comparison but the animosity towards Woodward reminds me of my own beef with Fauci who likely heard all the same things from Trump as Woodward but instead of pulling the fire alarm, decided to downplay the virus publicly to not get fired.

Fauci's behavior makes more sense, though. He was in a position where he actually had some degree of substantial control over the federal government's response for a time. He had to ask himself about the consequences of getting fired and how much worse the next person in his job would be.

Wanker might be right in his post above on the electoral impact of releasing in March vs. September. But Woodward didn't hold back because he worked out some rough calculus that letting more die over the summer and then dropping this story with his book in September would be more effective at costing Trump the election and thus, save more lives in the long run. He held back because he had planned to published a book shortly before the election and wanted to have something juicy to boost preorder numbers.

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Overlooked in this is Fauci's comment about how Trump's attention span is "basically a negative number". 

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3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Perhaps an apples to oranges comparison but the animosity towards Woodward reminds me of my own beef with Fauci who likely heard all the same things from Trump as Woodward but instead of pulling the fire alarm, decided to downplay the virus publicly to not get fired.

I know you believe that he should have spoken up, but he saw what happened to Dr. Messonier in February (and Dr. Bright later). He seems fairly intelligent so if he's got half a sense of intuition regarding people, he had to recognize Giroir for the opportunist that he is and Dr. Birx (whom I misjudged) for the apologist she is and Redfield and Azar don't even need explaining. Was it a mistake? I guess I'm still of the opinion that he threaded the needle about as well as he could've done.

Instead, he made the media rounds as much as possible. Had he been sidelined, wouldn't it have been much much worse? He had an amazing amount of trust placed in him by people (not on the Q train) when he spoke on the Task Force. Had he spoken out at the beginning of February (earlier than Messonier on the 25th), I suspect neither of them would have been heard from again. The virus had not hit the entirety of the country and only really tuned in people would have kept apace with fact vs propaganda. The propaganda has a much faster speed of transmission.

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22 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Yeah, the people carrying long rifles to state capitols because "fuck Masks, need a Salon!"  would have been swayed by the long-winded prose writings of Bob Woodward. 

Are you all out of your fucking minds?  

The only people from his base that I could see possibly being convinced to change their vote by this are those that have buried a loved one who died of covid-19.

Even that might just be a naive attempt on my part to project some semblance of humanity onto them.

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45 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Some people are trying to do that. This 60 minutes episode is going to be epic. Trumps approval could drop below 40%. 

I predict that nothing changes.

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45 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

May be the dumbest thing ive ever seen him tweet

“We have a lot of cases because we test so much” says hi 

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Y'all know there are a ton of people out there outside of our social spheres who aren't Trumpkins, right? When the world goes back to normal, try talking to some waiters, or the checkers at your grocery store, or a gas station attendant, or landscapers, etc. America is full of average people who are nice enough and work hard and don't have the luxury of paying much attention to the world because they're busy taking care of their own shit.

Goddamnit, fuck every one of you that's making me feel like BT right now. 

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2 minutes ago, Goredho said:

The only people from his base that I could see possibly being convinced to change their vote by this are those that have buried a loved one who died of covid-19.

Even that might just be a naive attempt on my part to project some semblance of humanity onto them.

Let's say your theory has legs, and we'll see if we can put some numbers to it:

Trump voters in 2016:  63M

Covid-19 deaths 2020:  195K

 

Even if every one of those deaths was close to a Trump voter, that's only 0.3% of Trump's voting base.  It's inconsequential.  I doubt it could even sway the 80K votes that decided a few key northern states.

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1 minute ago, Goredho said:

The only people from his base that I could see possibly being convinced to change their vote by this are those that have buried a loved one who died of covid-19.

Even that might just be a naive attempt on my part to project some semblance of humanity onto them.

Remember the family of Karen in Tomball? The ones that wanted the coroner to change her cause of death because she was getting roasted for calling COVID a hoax? I am thinking they are still yuge Trump supporters.

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Quote

 

"You would think that the family, or Republicans, would have some kinds of intervention," Pelosi, a California Democrat, said, responding to the president's remarks in an interview with MSNBC. "Clearly the behavior of the president is not on the level."

The Speaker argued that Republicans in Congress will have "doggie doo on their shoes" for the rest of their lives because they enabled the president. Republican lawmakers, as Pelsoi highlighted, have largely defended the president throughout his tenure in the White House.

 

https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-asks-why-republicans-havent-staged-intervention-over-trumps-actions-after-1530782

 

Whoa, careful their Nancy, those are strong words!  Maybe you should get on a video and try that awkward clapping thing again.

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52 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Some people are trying to do that. This 60 minutes episode is going to be epic. Trumps approval could drop below 40%. If that happens the senate falls and likely many state legislatures flip blue as well, especially if there is more stuff to come

 

 

You are somehow assuming even a small segment of those voting for him are capable of or would even consider watching an episode of 60 minutes with an open mind and critical analyzing the content.  There is zero chance.  Nothing is going to move the needle with his base.  Period.

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Blaming Fauci and Woodward is stupid. There's no "fire alarm" for them to pull. There is  no fire department who can put out the Trump fire.

It's not like the world was sitting around thinking Trump was honest and smart. Even Republicans know he's a liar.

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4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Let's say your theory has legs, and we'll see if we can put some numbers to it:

Trump voters in 2016:  63M

Covid-19 deaths 2020:  195K

 

Even if every one of those deaths was close to a Trump voter, that's only 0.3% of Trump's voting base.  It's inconsequential.  I doubt it could even sway the 80K votes that decided a few key northern states.

 

1 minute ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Remember the family of Karen in Tomball? The ones that wanted the coroner to change her cause of death because she was getting roasted for calling COVID a hoax? I am thinking they are still yuge Trump supporters.


I'm not arguing this will have a meaningful impact on the population who were intending to vote for Trump.  It won't.  I just struggle with accepting the abject shittiness of 40% of America.  My mind wants to find something redeeming in some of them.

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33 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Doesn’t Bob Woodward have an obligation to stop me from callously lying about the pandemic, destroying the economy and endangering all of your lives, when a 3-week shutdown and manhattan-project testing/tracing would have solved the problem by the 4th of July?   Boy, you people should really be mad at Bob Woodward for the way I behaved.  

enhanced for the hell of it

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9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Even if every one of those deaths was close to a Trump voter, that's only 0.3% of Trump's voting base.  It's inconsequential.  I doubt it could even sway the 80K votes that decided a few key northern states.

I messed that up a bit.  One Covid death could resonate with multiple former Trumpy family members.

That said, if you look at the states with the most Covid mortality, New York, New Jersey, and California alone account for 63K deaths.  Those 3 states were hard Clinton, so they're not really in the conversation.  Trump pulled Texas by over 800K votes, so those aren't budging any significant amount, at least because of Covid.  Florida?  Maybe.

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6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Blaming Fauci and Woodward is stupid. There's no "fire alarm" for them to pull. There is  no fire department who can put out the Trump fire.

It's not like the world was sitting around thinking Trump was honest and smart. Even Republicans know he's a liar.

I tend to agree with this now.  We keep looking for heroes where there are none that could be reasonably expected to mitigate the Trump damage.  It’s a fool’s errand. 

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11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Let's say your theory has legs, and we'll see if we can put some numbers to it:

Trump voters in 2016:  63M

Covid-19 deaths 2020:  195K

 

Even if every one of those deaths was close to a Trump voter, that's only 0.3% of Trump's voting base.  It's inconsequential.  I doubt it could even sway the 80K votes that decided a few key northern states.

That's just deaths. Millions have been hospitalized or seriously sick for weeks from it. Millions have lost their jobs/businesses/marriages over it. Millions are out of work from it or had to take far lower paying work than they had before. If some of those people decide to either stay home and not vote republican or step up in anger and vote against trump it could be the difference in swing states for sure. 

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Just now, Wanker Bob said:

That's just deaths. Millions have been hospitalized or seriously sick for weeks from it. Millions have lost their jobs/businesses/marriages over it. Millions are out of work from it or had to take far lower paying work than they had before. If some of those people decide to either stay home and not vote republican or step up in anger and vote against trump it could be the difference in swing states for sure. 

Sure, but the premise was "buried a love one".  I was just going with that.

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Quote

 

The shock here isn’t that Trump was lying. Nor that Woodward refused to disclose the truth in real-time. Nor even that the president’s lies contributed to the spread of COVID, which has now killed nearly 200,000 Americans, infected more than six million, and sent the nation spiraling into economic and social chaos.

The shock is that Trump’s support will barely budge.

This story will rage for a few days, as did the news that our commander in chief calls our troops as "losers" and "suckers." As did the news that he attempted to extort Ukraine for dirt on Joe Biden. As did the news that he considers white supremacists “very fine people.” And so on.

Every week — sometimes every day — new revelations emerge that affirm what we already know: Trump is a lazy, inept, bigot with a wounded ego where his heart should be, and a cash register for a conscience.

What matters isn’t this reality, but the fact that a rabid minority of our citizens have become inoculated against it. They live in a cultish bubble of partisan propaganda filled with protective buzz words and talking points, a hivemind fueled by rage, paranoia and shame. For decades, right-wing media demagogues have made billions of dollars exploiting their anguish.

This is why the president of the United States can lie — without consequence — to Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson and Geraldo Rivera, even about a virus that could kill their viewers. Trump didn’t lead a movement in 2016. He merely inherited an audience that had been vaccinated against unwelcome truths years ago.

On days like this, when we come face to face (yet again) with the catastrophic iniquity of Trump, my mind turns to the description of Kurtz that Joseph Conrad offers in "Heart of Darkness": “I saw the inconceivable mystery of a soul that knew no restraint, no faith, and no fear, yet struggling blindly with itself.”

More than that, I think about the forces that led us to award so much power to such an empty man, and have induced so many of our public servants to ignore his abuses, and sanction his lethal efforts to set us against one another.

Conrad was wise to that peril as well. “Your strength,” he observed, “is just an accident arising from the weakness of others.”

 

https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2020/09/09/woodward-book-play-it-down-coronavirus-steve-almond

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4 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

They live in a cultish bubble of partisan propaganda filled with protective buzz words and talking points, a hivemind fueled by rage, paranoia and shame. For decades, right-wing media demagogues have made billions of dollars exploiting their anguish.

Sums it up nicely.  This is the hell we live in.

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13 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Blaming Fauci and Woodward is stupid. There's no "fire alarm" for them to pull. There is  no fire department who can put out the Trump fire.

It's not like the world was sitting around thinking Trump was honest and smart. Even Republicans know he's a liar.

I like this statement of yours. Tbh, the last few years has seemed a little surreal to me. Coming off of treatment and feeling a little healthier and able to shed some of the brain blips that the medicine seemed to cause only to have the rather odd feeling as if I've walked into events not unlike the leadup to one of the world wars and heading straight into feudal oligarchy nations led by tyrannical despots and their hangers-on.

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35 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

I'll have what Sawbonz is having. Fuck it, make it a double.

None of his disasters or outrages have put one dent in the cult.  So far.

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16 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Y'all know there are a ton of people out there outside of our social spheres who aren't Trumpkins, right? When the world goes back to normal, try talking to some waiters, or the checkers at your grocery store, or a gas station attendant, or landscapers, etc. America is full of average people who are nice enough and work hard and don't have the luxury of paying much attention to the world because they're busy taking care of their own shit.

Goddamnit, fuck every one of you that's making me feel like BT right now. 

A whole bunch of those people think reality tv is reality and support Donald Trump because they think he's actually the character he played on The Apprentice. They think he's rich and successful so he must be smart and know what he's doing. A lot of them are Trump's target demographic. Not particularly well educated in history or current events, they have a short attention span and were fooled by Trump's celebrity. 

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Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

A whole bunch of those people think reality tv is reality and support Donald Trump because they think he's actually the character he played on The Apprentice. They think he's rich and successful so he must be smart and know what he's doing. A lot of them are Trump's target demographic. Not particularly well educated in history or current events, they have a short attention span and were fooled by Trump's celebrity. 

I had a family member tell me that Trump is rich and doesn't need the job, but he does it because he cares. It's almost impossible to believe, but tens of millions of people think this. 

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1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

A whole bunch of those people think reality tv is reality and support Donald Trump because they think he's actually the character he played on The Apprentice. They think he's rich and successful so he must be smart and know what he's doing. A lot of them are Trump's target demographic. Not particularly well educated in history or current events, they have a short attention span and were fooled by Trump's celebrity. 

Some of them, sure. But most of them are consistent nonvoters. Trump's base isn't the working poor (most of whom aren't white), it's aggy.

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33 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I predict that nothing changes.

That's where I am.  At this point we have to gut it out until Nov 3rd, when we find out:

  • If the Blue Wave is stronger than Trump's election interference and
  • if the Blue Wave takes the Senate

Even if the first one doesn't happen, if the latter happens we better be looking at President Pelosi by March of I'm going to be one pissed off hombre.

Edited by Bullneck

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12 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

A whole bunch of those people think reality tv is reality and support Donald Trump because they think he's actually the character he played on The Apprentice. They think he's rich and successful so he must be smart and know what he's doing. A lot of them are Trump's target demographic. Not particularly well educated in history or current events, they have a short attention span and were fooled by Trump's celebrity. 

Yep.  As I have said on occasion, the celebrity worship in our culture makes me very uneasy.  And reality tv compounds that by making celebrities out of those with no talent or particular merit.  Then you add in social media and we're a culture that celebrates and worships the insignificant and banal.

We laugh at the Brits for sorta worshiping their royal family, yet we sit here and worship the Kardashians, Cardi B, Bella Thorne and other miscellaneous idiots, and we voluntarily enrich them.

And the culmination of that, maybe even the inevitable result of it, is the election of a shitheel like Donald Trump.  And then you add in his pathologies and geezly crow.  Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho would actually be a better choice.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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27 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Let's say your theory has legs, and we'll see if we can put some numbers to it:

Trump voters in 2016:  63M

Covid-19 deaths 2020:  195K

 

Even if every one of those deaths was close to a Trump voter, that's only 0.3% of Trump's voting base.  It's inconsequential.  I doubt it could even sway the 80K votes that decided a few key northern states.

You are mistaking that 63m as being Trump’s base. It isn’t. There will be a substantial number of people in that group either vote Biden or stay home. Also third party voters should be way down, and the 6% that were libertarian or Green Party voters should break mostly for Biden

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28 minutes ago, Skipper said:

You are somehow assuming even a small segment of those voting for him are capable of or would even consider watching an episode of 60 minutes with an open mind and critical analyzing the content.  There is zero chance.  Nothing is going to move the needle with his base.  Period.

You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. 

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14 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

None of his disasters or outrages have put one dent in the cult.  So far.

And the cult is about 20%. Don’t be such a pussy

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5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yep.  As I have said on occasion, the celebrity worship in our culture makes me very uneasy.  And reality tv compounds that by making celebrities out of those with no talent or particular merit.  Then you add in social media and we're a culture that celebrates and worships the insignificant and banal.

It all started with that motherfucker Robin Leach celebrating the Rich & Famous (including the early Trump deification) that led to Paris Hilton and then to the fucking Kardashians to today's gotdam internet influencers.

On a parallel media path, we started with the Real World that led to Survivor and then to teh Donald's Apprentice and now whatever the fuck "reality teevee" shows people watch.

Somewhere those two streams, both involving Trump, crossed and we've landed in this hellhole that we're in now. 

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34 minutes ago, Skipper said:

You are somehow assuming even a small segment of those voting for him are capable of or would even consider watching an episode of 60 minutes with an open mind and critical analyzing the content.  There is zero chance.  Nothing is going to move the needle with his base.  Period.

Fuck his base. His base cannot win him this election. There are millions of people who will either watch the 60 minutes episode or will see clips on social media. Many will change their minds about him. He’s already at historically low approval rating for a president seeking re-election. I really think some of y’all have learned helplessness after the last 4 years 

Or maybe you actually believe in reverse jinxes?

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I was reminded in another discussion thread about the Senators who sold stock while downplaying the threat from Covid-19, having been briefed that it was a very real threat.  That's another problem with the continual flood of shit.  Those of us not in the cult get overwhelmed I think.  My memory isn't the memory I had as a young man, but when there is (what should be) a scandal/crisis every day, you get somewhat numb to it all.    It gets tempting to just tune it all out because of how obvious it is that 'justice' will never, ever be done.  But like Charlie Brown some of us keep lining up to kick that football again. 

In some ways I'm jealous of the cult members as it must be easier to just ignore everything and go with whatever the figurative orange grandpa says.  Yuck yuck he sure pissed them libtards off today, didn't he?  The only thing is their belief doesn't seem to bring them peace.  It only seems to make them angrier, which maybe just maybe is a tell that deep down they know that something is rotten, but they are ignoring that tiny voice that tells them.

 

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1 minute ago, bolverk said:

It all started with that motherfucker Robin Leach celebrating the Rich & Famous (including the early Trump deification) that led to Paris Hilton and then to the fucking Kardashians to today's gotdam internet influencers.

On a parallel media path, we started with the Real World that led to Survivor and then to teh Donald's Apprentice and now whatever the fuck "reality teevee" shows people watch.

Somewhere those two streams, both involving Trump, crossed and we've landed in this hellhole that we're in now. 

I'm not sure you got the order correct, but a huge tailwind in our cultural decline was talk show mania (Phil Donahue, Sally Jesse Raphael, Jerry Springer, Montel Williams, Maury Povich, Oprah, Dr. Phil, Jenny Jones, Geraldo Rivera, Ricki Lake, etc.).  They put "normal" trashy Americans on TV and exploited them for entertainment value.  It resonated with way too many people and was a precursor to the "look at me" narcissism of modern Facebook, Instagram, et al.

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There are millions of people who will either watch the 60 minutes episode or will see clips on social media. Many will change their minds about him.

Ah! Well, nevertheless

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mpu


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