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Pancho

Did the 9/11 attacks lead us to where we are today?

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Twitter is full of conspiracy theories surrounding building 7.

When clicking on those accounts (out of curiosity), they have the same Q bullshit as well as a bunch of other shit.  #AllBuildingsMatter is also trending.  

It's fucking 9/11, and it should be a day of remembrance for all Americans, regardless of race, political leaning, etc. 

If 9/11 didn't happen, would we be where we are with the current chaos in this country today or would it have happened regardless?

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We were always going to end up here.  Too many people got a voice and realized there were others like them.  And somebody tapped into it.  

I was listening to a gut-wrenching talk this morning with 4-star General Brooks (first African American brigade leader at West Point) and 4-star Admiral Inman.  They talked about their service on and after that fateful day.  But they also talked about how we came together as a nation, and how those days are gone now.  I think that same number of people would still come together as a nation if we were attacked again.  But, as those two senior flag officers stated, our largest vulnerability no longer comes from foreign terrorism...but from within.

A bunch of stupid people feel they "got the call" and the rest of us are going to have to babysit them for a long while.  If so many "Americans" could hear what true patriots thought of their backwards asses, they'd do us all a favor and off themselves.  Instead, my daughters have to placate their sorry asses for a full generation because we have the decency not to euthanize our dumbest and sorriest.  

Seriously, I've had phone calls and zooms all morning with veterans that were in the Pentagon that morning.  And then I have to switch back to dumbfuck deniers who think we're gonna be saved by the current heap of shit.  Fuck you guys.  We're not here because of 9/11.  We're because you embrace stupidity.  

Edited by Lobo

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back in the early late 90s, early aughts, i used to regularly get baked and surf conspiracy websites like http://www.abovetopsecret.com/

it used to be fun to see wacky people's theories about lizard people or aliens. click on that link now and it's basically all right wing propaganda. not so much fun anymore. also, i haven't smoked pot in years. maybe i need to do something about that.

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The internet got us here.  Blame Al Gore.  When you give the stupids a never ending positive feedback loop for their stupidity, you're fucked.  

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All I know is the internet was way more fun back in 2005 when we were all arguing on Hornfans with Mr. Wizard over whether 9/11 was an inside job.

 

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8 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

The internet got us here.  Blame Al Gore.  When you give the stupids a never ending positive feedback loop for their stupidity, you're fucked.  

i think you are kind of right, kind of wrong. there were always conspiracy theories. alex jones was pre-internet. sure, the internet has given them a platform, yeah, and an amplifier. but it has been weird watching anti-state conspiracy theorists morph from "aliens at area 51 and government disclosure is coming soon" to "q dropped this today about the deep state."

it's all the same mentality, but it has morphed people's brains and it is definitely how we got to trump. his base is white supremacy, disenfranchised working class (work on that shit, democrats!), conspiracy theorists, and wealthy people. and conservative judge proponent people like tahoe who bring the donuts. that's basically it.

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Our fear, ignorance, and inability to honestly self-reflect brought us to where we are today, all of which existed pre 9/11. National unity around a President was piddled away on calls to return to shopping and revenge on brown folks regardless whether they were the actual chief antagonists of 9/11. We continue to choose the easiest answer which promises the greatest perceived personal benefit even if the promise is transparently hollow. 9/11 was just a stop along the road. Shallow, selfish people do shallow, selfish things like elect an obvious conman whose lies kill hundreds of thousands of Americans.

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40 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Twitter is full of conspiracy theories surrounding building 7.

When clicking on those accounts (out of curiosity), they have the same Q bullshit as well as a bunch of other shit.  #AllBuildingsMatter is also trending.  

It's fucking 9/11, and it should be a day of remembrance for all Americans, regardless of race, political leaning, etc. 

If 9/11 didn't happen, would we be where we are with the current chaos in this country today or would it have happened regardless?

rush limbaugh, then fox news. that's why we are where we are right now, which is a world where things like truth, compassion, rational thinking are obsolete.

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Johnson is the one who got the CIA to wound up Oswald so tight.  LBJ had Kennedy murdered.  You get certainly family members drunk enough...

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40 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Twitter is full of conspiracy theories surrounding building 7.

When clicking on those accounts (out of curiosity), they have the same Q bullshit as well as a bunch of other shit.  #AllBuildingsMatter is also trending.  

It's fucking 9/11, and it should be a day of remembrance for all Americans, regardless of race, political leaning, etc. 

If 9/11 didn't happen, would we be where we are with the current chaos in this country today or would it have happened regardless?

100% to your first question. 9/11 launched:

War in Afghanistan...still there

War in Iraq...still there

Low kinetic wars across Africa and Syria

Genocide in Yemen

Domestic spying operations

Human torture programs 

Massive increases in government spending which were already ridiculous

and that's just off the top of my head.

 

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58 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Twitter is full of conspiracy theories surrounding building 7.

When clicking on those accounts (out of curiosity), they have the same Q bullshit as well as a bunch of other shit.  #AllBuildingsMatter is also trending.  

It's fucking 9/11, and it should be a day of remembrance for all Americans, regardless of race, political leaning, etc. 

If 9/11 didn't happen, would we be where we are with the current chaos in this country today or would it have happened regardless?

Probably. I think it’s social media and the internet. But I’d be willing to listen to a fully fleshed out argument that 9/11 leads to a lot of this, whatever your idea of this. 
really it’s probably fall Of the USSR/end of the Cold War. 

Edited by Wulaw Horn

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27 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

back in the early late 90s, early aughts, i used to regularly get baked and surf conspiracy websites like http://www.abovetopsecret.com/

it used to be fun to see wacky people's theories about lizard people or aliens. click on that link now and it's basically all right wing propaganda. not so much fun anymore. also, i haven't smoked pot in years. maybe i need to do something about that.

I started every now and then again when the pandemic started. I don't like drinking much alcohol and this shit is way too fucked to go through it stone sober. I bought one of these and just have a nice little one or two puff dry herb vape once or twice a week when I need to just shut the brain down for a bit to sleep

https://www.dynavap.com/

Also, 9/11 didn't cause us to get here because Rush and Hannity and Newt were already laying the seeds for this republican brainwashed stupidity long before 9/11 but it sure as shit floored the accelerator and maybe made what's happening today worse than it would have been. 9/11 led directly to W setting up a horrible surveillance state and tricking the country into removing Saddam which led to ISIS. Pushing 2 straight decades of war added to the invention of smart phones in 2007 plus Zuckerberg and Twitter Jack unleashing tools to target the stupid man's greatest weakness all combined for a perfect storm of absolute shit and here we are on the brink of authoritarian social collapse and financial ruin. 

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22 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i think you are kind of right, kind of wrong. there were always conspiracy theories. alex jones was pre-internet. sure, the internet has given them a platform, yeah, and an amplifier. but it has been weird watching anti-state conspiracy theorists morph from "aliens at area 51 and government disclosure is coming soon" to "q dropped this today about the deep state."

it's all the same mentality, but it has morphed people's brains and it is definitely how we got to trump. his base is white supremacy, disenfranchised working class (work on that shit, democrats!), conspiracy theorists, and wealthy people. and conservative judge proponent people like tahoe who bring the donuts. that's basically it.

This is the evolution.  Grift pays.  The people really cashing in on Q and Trump don’t believe any of it.  They’re fine watching the world burn as long as they line their pockets.  This is also the path of least resistance.  Stupid likes easy/simple.  Here we are.  

Also humans love being duped.  It’s innate.  That’s why good leaders are rare.  As far as DNA, we aren’t that far removed from apes.  And it’s really showing now.  

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Where is "here"? MIB's post is accurate. But presumably "here" also includes all our immigration racism, which 9/11 didn't cause, and it probably also includes the growth in conspiracy theories, which 9/11 didn't cause, etc.

9/11 was a enormous national trauma and we did a bunch of awful shit when reacting to it. We also have always had awful people with awful ideas doing awful things and would regardless of whether 9/11 happened. There is no idyllic past in which everyone got along and we were all better people. We will never ever reach a point where everyone gets along and everyone is a good person. 

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43 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

back in the early late 90s, early aughts, i used to regularly get baked and surf conspiracy websites like http://www.abovetopsecret.com/

it used to be fun to see wacky people's theories about lizard people or aliens. click on that link now and it's basically all right wing propaganda. not so much fun anymore. also, i haven't smoked pot in years. maybe i need to do something about that.

 

10 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

I started every now and then again when the pandemic started. I don't like drinking much alcohol and this shit is way too fucked to go through it stone sober. I bought one of these and just have a nice little one or two puff dry herb vape once or twice a week when I need to just shut the brain down for a bit to sleep

https://www.dynavap.com/

Also, 9/11 didn't cause us to get here because Rush and Hannity and Newt were already laying the seeds for this republican brainwashed stupidity long before 9/11 but it sure as shit floored the accelerator and maybe made what's happening today worse than it would have been. 9/11 led directly to W setting up a horrible surveillance state and tricking the country into removing Saddam which led to ISIS. Pushing 2 straight decades of war added to the invention of smart phones in 2007 plus Zuckerberg and Twitter Jack unleashing tools to target the stupid man's greatest weakness all combined for a perfect storm of absolute shit and here we are on the brink of authoritarian social collapse and financial ruin. 

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13 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

rush limbaugh, then fox news. that's why we are where we are right now, which is a world where things like truth, compassion, rational thinking are obsolete.

i tend to fall on this side.  there's big $$$ in being divisive.  Rush tapped into that and spawned copycats.  Fox News built its business model around it.  then social media allowed these messages to spread faster and cast a wider net.  it inevitably led to the Alex Joneses of the world, who made money on conspiracy theory side of things.  and that spawned the growth of the 4chan and 8chan and Qanon crowd.  then the circle comes back to TV, as we now have OAN, which is building its base around conspiracy theories as news.

now, the Qanon crowd is leaking into Congress.  it's gonna get worse before it gets better.  we may have a Qanon Party before too long.

back to the original question:  9/11 played a role in the politicization of anything.  and helped fuel the conspiracy theory model.  but we were gonna get there at some point.  9/11 probably sped things along.

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47 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

11/22/63 and 9/11/01 are the two most important dates in our history, in my opinion. Oswald changed everything. 

Don't forget 01/04/2006

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It sucks that there are so many insane conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 because it's beyond obvious that we are not in possession of all material facts of what happened.  I don't know, maybe there are so many conspiracy theories because the 9/11 commission was such an utter farce.  

If anyone is interested in a real fact-based critique of the official account, I would recommend perusing the 9/11 consensus page (http://www.consensus911.org/), and particularly the "9/11 points" section which discusses areas where the official account deviates from the available evidence.  For instance, the disparity between the skill of the supposed hijacker pilot of Flight 77 (Hani Hanjour) and the difficulty of piloting Flight 77 along the trajectory upon which it traveled is really interesting.

http://www.consensus911.org/point-pent-3/

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1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

It sucks that there are so many insane conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 because it's beyond obvious that we are not in possession of all material facts of what happened.  I don't know, maybe there are so many conspiracy theories because the 9/11 commission was such an utter farce.  

If anyone is interested in a real fact-based critique of the official account, I would recommend perusing the 9/11 consensus page (http://www.consensus911.org/), and particularly the "9/11 points" section which discusses areas where the official account deviates from the available evidence.  For instance, the disparity between the skill of the supposed hijacker pilot of Flight 77 (Hani Hanjour) and the difficulty of piloting Flight 77 along the trajectory upon which it traveled is really interesting.

http://www.consensus911.org/point-pent-3/

This post is so on brand for you.  Congrats. 

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This was written in 2015 and does a pretty good job of framing how we got here.

https://ross-elder.com/2015/06/16/the-patriot-deception-introduction/

The events of September 11, 2001, as with most instances of attack on a homeland, resulted in an incredible upsurge of patriotism within the United States of America.  Although these increases in what we refer to as patriotism often wane over time, the U.S. Patriot movement is as strong today as it was in the days following the terrorist attacks of 2001.  In recent years, however, the so-called patriot movement has evolved into a philosophy of paranoia, conspiracy theory, and distrust of the “official story.”  As the 9/11 Truth movement grew, it inexplicably became linked to the patriot movement, sharing in its paranoia and rejection of any official narrative.  These movements then spawned other, now well-known organizations such as Oath Keepers and catapulted so-called alternative media organizations like InfoWars and Prison Planet into the mainstream.  InfoWars’ media campaigns have been so effective that its articles and commentary are now propagated to news websites in the same fashion as Reuters or The Associated Press.

With all of this in mind, it becomes troubling when you analyze the patriot movement’s rhetoric and discover that it is far from supportive of the actions and policies of the United States.  In fact, the government of the United States is often referenced using words like Oligarch, Zionist, and, occasionally, puppet regime of the New World Order.  The rhetoric is so intense that it can only be described as anti-American.  It forces one to question whether the so-called patriot movement is actually patriotic at all.  The logical second question is, “From where do these ideologies originate?”

The answer to the first question is subject to much debate and interpretation.  Many organizations that refer to themselves as patriotic see it as their duty to question authority and believe a healthy dose of distrust is virtually written in the DNA of the American citizen.  We can all define patriotism in our own way and, therefore, it becomes difficult to judge whether one ideology is patriotic while another is not.

The answer to the second question, however, leaves much less to debate.  And the answer is frightening.

Original Thought, or Origins Unknown?

During the 1990s, and particularly during the Clinton Presidency, right wing extremist groups, religious organizations, and militias expanded at a rate not seen previously.  The Clinton years saw the rise of the megachurch, the rejection of governmental authority, and violent uprisings by militia groups.  Terms like martial law, police state, and militarization of law enforcement became a part of the American lexicon, all at the hands of these so called right wing organizations.  Additionally, religious organizations focused on the end times, the book of Revelations, and the rise of the Anti-Christ and the New World Order.  Tyranny and oppression, words not often used to describe the post-civil rights era United States became common accusations against the government.  Incidents such as Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidian Compound certainly did much to fan the flames of this dissent and the era was epitomized by the terrorist attack on the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

By far, the most influential alternative media figure to emerge from the 1990s was Alex Jones.  His slick production tricks, well-rehearsed tag lines, and televangelist-like charisma drew millions to his alternative view of the United States and the world.  Jones, while continuously claiming the title of “true patriot”, railed against the government of the United States and used every opportunity to point out the “evils” of the current regime in Washington.  Elections followed, presidencies ended and began, new officials took office, but Jones’ rhetoric never changed.  9/11/2001 became a windfall for Jones as he succeeded in his attempts to convince his millions of followers that the terrorist attacks of that day were, certainly and without question, an inside job.  The term “False Flag” became common, although it was almost always misused by the host and those who sought to replicate his success with their own internet radio shows, YouTube “documentaries”, and blogs.  Even former Minnesota Governor, Jesse Ventura, best known for his years as a professional wrestler, joined the cause.  The new age of the conspiracy theorists was born and absorbed every ideology and theory proposed by Hollywood actors and directors, radio show hosts, and bloggers.  This parade of disparate “free thinkers” was led down the rabbit hole by the ever present Alex Jones.

Then, in 2010, a new player entered the American news media arena:  RT America.  RT, originally named Russia Today, is a news and information organization funded by the Russian Federation that is tasked with reaching audiences outside of the Federation.  Immediately dismissed as an obvious Russian propaganda campaign, RT America’s entry into American media caused a ripple, but no splash.  Relatively ignored by other media outlets within the United States, RT did find an audience in an unexpected place – the American Patriot and Liberty movements.  Rejecting any form of mainstream media as U.S. government propaganda, the patriot movement embraced the coverage provided by an outside perspective.  Before long, RT America’s articles and Op Ed pieces were being shared and posted on hundreds of patriot and liberty websites, blogs, and video channels.  RT found its audience, and the so-called patriots found a major media outlet willing to pander to its ideology.


 

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Lol, didn't someone just guess that Fozzz was a truther within the last couple of days? Whoever that was deserves some internet points.

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1 minute ago, ChiTownDoc said:

This post is so on brand for you.  Congrats. 

What do you take issue with exactly?  If we already know everything that is worth knowing, then why are relatives of the victims currently trying to uncover information linking Saudi Arabia with 9/11 as part of their lawsuit?  

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One upshot of the prevalence of 9/11 conspiracy theories is that it has made the event impossible to discuss.  The chair of the 9/11 commission admitted that the investigation was nerfed by lack of funds and official obstruction but if you dare state this fact you must be one of those "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" people.

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8 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

It sucks that there are so many insane conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 because it's beyond obvious that we are not in possession of all material facts of what happened.  I don't know, maybe there are so many conspiracy theories because the 9/11 commission was such an utter farce.  

If anyone is interested in a real fact-based critique of the official account, I would recommend perusing the 9/11 consensus page (http://www.consensus911.org/), and particularly the "9/11 points" section which discusses areas where the official account deviates from the available evidence.  For instance, the disparity between the skill of the supposed hijacker pilot of Flight 77 (Hani Hanjour) and the difficulty of piloting Flight 77 along the trajectory upon which it traveled is really interesting.

http://www.consensus911.org/point-pent-3/

Did they write this on MySpace? Looks legit.

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4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

What do you take issue with exactly?  If we already know everything that is worth knowing, then why are relatives of the victims currently trying to uncover information linking Saudi Arabia with 9/11 as part of their lawsuit?  

We all have crazy family members, including the people that died that day. 

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By the way, I feel compelled to recommend The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright because of the thread topic and because I first saw it recommended on this site. Great read written by an Austinite. 

Edited by ConferenceRoom

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4 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

We all have crazy family members, including the people that died that day. 

If there is no connection, then why is the Justice Department keeping the FBI files closed as a state secret?  The reason why the files must remain secret is even a secret lol.

https://www.propublica.org/article/attorney-general-barr-refuses-to-release-9-11-documents-to-families-of-the-victims

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57 minutes ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

Our fear, ignorance, and inability to honestly self-reflect brought us to where we are today

If you want to run for something I'll vote for you.

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8 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

By the way, I feel compelled to recommend The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright because of the thread topic and because I first saw it recommended on this site. Great read written by an Austinite. 

His book on Texas politics is excellent too. The Looming Tower is a once a year read/audible for me. 

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There is something to be said about the US government/media repeatedly covering up stuff and distorting the truth that helps facilitate the attraction towards conspiracy theories by the population.  

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1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

The internet got us here.  Blame Al Gore.  When you give the stupids a never ending positive feedback loop for their stupidity, you're fucked.  

When I first started getting on BBS sites back in the 90s, I remember thinking, "This could actually be our undoing.  I'm not sure how, but this level of connectedness and fake identities has bad potential."  It was just the hint of an idea with very fuzzy edges so I dismissed it.

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1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

There is something to be said about the US government/media repeatedly covering up stuff and distorting the truth that helps facilitate the attraction towards conspiracy theories by the population.  

Even in situations where they aren't covering up some malfeasance, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't done deliberately to build up the idea that only quacks question the official account of a given event.  The government lies about pretty much everything but when it comes to one of the most important events in our lives don't you dare question it.  

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We took a group of animals who at their core are self-interested and generally self-absorbed (and there is a lot of good evolutionary reason for them to be those things first and foremost) where half of them by the law of averages ain't all that bright, connected a much greater percentage of that bottom half together with the internet, voila the village idiots can now talk to one another....and then Steve Jobs put it in everyone's pocket.   

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One does have to admit one curious detail about the 11 September attacks.  4 swarthy middle eastern men casually learning to fly in busybody San Diego and Eastern Florida and not one racist, elderly white person said a fucking word? Then they're each joined by 4 fellow Muslim bunkmates each, and not one eyebrow is raised?  Meanwhile, anybody browner than Jake Busey so much as goes for a jog in those two parts of the country, they're shot to death.  19 years later, I've read a whopping 2 reliable articles about how law enforcement finally admitted they heard some chatter for neighbors but never looked into it.  That aspect of the story to me, has always been questionable bullshit. 

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“The Looming Tower” was made into a great series on Hulu.

Fans of the book should check it out if you haven’t seen it - stays fairly close in line with the book.

Quite a tragic story.

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mpu


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