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Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26437

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

For whom?

Reposting the study.

Key Findings:

  • In the 10 most populous states in the country, each year 2.4 million workers covered by state or federal minimum wage laws report being paid less than the applicable minimum wage in their state—approximately 17 percent of the eligible low-wage workforce.
  • The total underpayment of wages to these workers amounts to over $8 billion annually. If the findings for these states are representative for the rest of the country, they suggest that the total wages stolen from workers due to minimum wage violations exceeds $15 billion each year.
  • Workers suffering minimum wage violations are underpaid an average of $64 per week, nearly one-quarter of their weekly earnings. This means that a victim who works year-round is losing, on average, $3,300 per year and receiving only $10,500 in annual wages.
  • Young workers, women, people of color, and immigrant workers are more likely than other workers to report being paid less than the minimum wage, but this is primarily because they are also more likely than other workers to be in low-wage jobs. In general, low-wage workers experience minimum wage violations at high rates across demographic categories. In fact, the majority of workers with reported wages below the minimum wage are over 25 and are native-born U.S. citizens, nearly half are white, more than a quarter have children, and just over half work full time.
  • In the 10 most populous states, workers are most likely to be paid less than the minimum wage in Florida (7.3 percent), Ohio (5.5 percent), and New York (5.0 percent). However, the severity of underpayment is the worst in Pennsylvania and Texas, where the average victim of a minimum wage violation is cheated out of over 30 percent of earned pay.
  • The poverty rate among workers paid less than the minimum wage in these 10 states is over 21 percent—three times the poverty rate for minimum-wage-eligible workers overall. Assuming no change in work hours, if these workers were paid the full wages to which they are entitled, less than 15 percent would be in poverty.

That website is trash and you should be embarrassed that you posted anything from it.

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Armybrat
Armybrat

Jesus Christ, you are so fucking wrong. I am goddamned done trying to talk to you rationionally.

blacklab
blacklab

You can post videos, some of which are inside tweets that have other content. Post a tweet that's all political content with a random static image, you're taking a day off like elguapo is I

clapclapclap
clapclapclap

Can y'all stop arguing in circles with BT and Brisket?  Make your point and move on.  Their whole game is to filibuster and spam a thread with endless posts until the vids, pics, and news they don't l

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9795

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

US Department of Labor study (via Yale)

UCLA

Wage theft is real.

The survey found that low-wage workers in Los Angeles regularly experience violations of basic laws that mandate a minimum wage and overtime pay and are frequently forced to work off the clock or during their breaks. Other violations documented in the survey include lack of required payroll documentation, being paid late, tip stealing, and employer retaliation. In nearly every case, the violation rates are higher in Los Angeles than in New York and Chicago

 

surely the readily available under the table employee has no influence on this situation. California has a lot of competition for their citizen’s low wage jobs through no fault of their own.  As an employee, why would you speak out when you are so easily replaceable?

California low wage workers face a scarcity of resources when they are forced to compete with non-citizens for jobs, housing and educational resources. This form of “wage theft” is an inevitable consequence of an over supply of low wage workers. 

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alincoln

alincoln 2364

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Posted
1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

The survey found that low-wage workers in Los Angeles regularly experience violations of basic laws that mandate a minimum wage and overtime pay and are frequently forced to work off the clock or during their breaks. Other violations documented in the survey include lack of required payroll documentation, being paid late, tip stealing, and employer retaliation. In nearly every case, the violation rates are higher in Los Angeles than in New York and Chicago

 

surely the readily available under the table employee has no influence on this situation. California has a lot of competition for their citizen’s low wage jobs through no fault of their own.  As an employee, why would you speak out when you are so easily replaceable?

California is also without question the most lucrative state in the country for wage and hour class actions which are keeping many lawyers on both sides very busy and wealthy.

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Bevo

Bevo 13468

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You guys sound exactly like the looter-apologists you have spent weeks screaming about.

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/business/11views.html

 

American workers are overpaid, relative to equally productive employees elsewhere doing the same work. If the global economy is to get into balance, that gap must close.

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15190

Posted
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14 minutes ago, Bevo said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/business/11views.html

 

American workers are overpaid, relative to equally productive employees elsewhere doing the same work. If the global economy is to get into balance, that gap must close.

Hmmmm, Unions and many of their contracts tied directly to MW hikes are not going to like this.  Not one little bit, sir.....

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26437

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25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You guys sound exactly like the looter-apologists you have spent weeks screaming about.

We aren't saying wage theft doesn't happen, but looting isn't "reparations" for wage theft. The people being hurt by it have government resources to report the issues. 

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Gatorubet

Gatorubet 30023

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https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/business/11views.html
 
American workers are overpaid, relative to equally productive employees elsewhere doing the same work. If the global economy is to get into balance, that gap must close.

Bullshit. Other countries have paid healthcare and other benefits not coming out of paychecks like insurance premiums and deductibles - or not coming out of pocket as debt. I do not see the author taking that into consideration. Those benefits need to be added on to the salary of universal healthcare, paid vacation, etc. countries.
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13115

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

We aren't saying wage theft doesn't happen, but looting isn't "reparations" for wage theft. The people being hurt by it have government resources to report the issues. 

Being hurt by what, wage theft?

Do you think a minimum wage employee or undocumented immigrant is in a more powerful position with regards to making themselves whole after theft than business owners?

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Bevo

Bevo 13468

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Being hurt by what, wage theft?

Do you think a minimum wage employee or undocumented immigrant is in a more powerful position with regards to making themselves whole after theft than business owners?

Are undocumented immigrants the same thing as illegal immigrants?

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Who was arguing that looting isn't theft?

It absolutely is theft. Anyone who does it should be prosecuted in a fair justice system. Same for the many types of theft that steal from the workers at a rate and amount higher than any looting movement could ever dream of.

You've been making excuses or just denied it's happened for most everything they've done. The painted bed sheet proclaims the looting is less than what's been stolen from them. Not sure what you take from that other than self justification for looting.

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 7911

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Posted
49 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

That website is trash and you should be embarrassed that you posted anything from it.

I read both center right and center left sources which garner a HIGH factual rating.

 

Could you be more specific as to why you trash the Economic Policy initiative?

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26437

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4 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

I read both center right and center left sources which garner a HIGH factual rating.

Could you be more specific as to why you trash the Economic Policy initiative?

Follow the money:

 

EPI 2019 Donor Acknowledgment List

$200,000 and up
Anonymous
AFL-CIO
Alliance for American Manufacturing
American Federation of Teachers
The Bauman Foundation
Ford Foundation
National Education Association
Open Society Foundations
Peter G. Peterson Foundation
Silicon Valley Foundation (Gift Well Fund)
Surdna Foundation
The WhyNot Initiative
W.K. Kellogg Foundation

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 7911

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for responding.

I ialready found the information you offer. Perhaps you find the groups you mentioned far left of center?   I see why you are bothered.  We clearly disagree.

 

I’m curious if you find fault in looking for both left and right if center sources. Isn’t factual reporting a bigger issue than knowing from what political camp the story and slant origInated?

thanks for the info.

 

 

 

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26437

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Perhaps you find the groups you mentioned far left of center? 

I don't "find them" left of center. They are. Would you trust a study entitled "The price of medicine in the US is too low" that was funded by the American Medical Association with contributions from Pfizer & Merck?

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workswithseed

workswithseed 2028

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I don't "find them" left of center. They are. Would you trust a study entitled "The price of medicine in the US is too low" that was funded by the American Medical Association with contributions from Pfizer & Merck?

I don't trust any name with a P not followed by a vowel.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13115

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Bevo said:

Are undocumented immigrants the same thing as illegal immigrants?

Sure, whatever you like.

Do you have a followup to this?

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You've been making excuses or just denied it's happened for most everything they've done. The painted bed sheet proclaims the looting is less than what's been stolen from them. Not sure what you take from that other than self justification for looting.

It's context for understanding the actual problems going on. Looting is bad and a crime. What is happening to the working class is exponentially worse than any looting that could conceivably take place.  A rational person can hold these two thoughts in their head at the same time.

You can't take yes for an answer. I agree with you that (1) people shouldn't loot and (2) people who loot should face a fair justice system. We agree.

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Bevo

Bevo 13468

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Posted
2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, but they're more important than actual citizens to democrats.  

I understand that. But, should illegal immigrants be getting minimum wage and snack breaks? I thought they were illegal and thus ineligible for employment.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Sure, whatever you like.

Do you have a followup to this?

It's context for understanding the actual problems going on. Looting is bad and a crime. What is happening to the working class is exponentially worse than any looting that could conceivably take place.  A rational person can hold these two thoughts in their head at the same time.

You can't take yes for an answer. I agree with you that (1) people shouldn't loot and (2) people who loot should face a fair justice system. We agree.

 

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dcar00

dcar00 14002

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Gatorubet said:


Bullshit. Other countries have paid healthcare and other benefits not coming out of paychecks like insurance premiums and deductibles - or not coming out of pocket as debt. I do not see the author taking that into consideration. Those benefits need to be added on to the salary of universal healthcare, paid vacation, etc. countries.

figures lie and liars figure...

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Bevo

Bevo 13468

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Posted
39 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Fuck the snack breaks, but yeah min. wage.

I disagree. They aren't legal workers and unless we are using a work visa type program, they need to be paid under-the-table whatever the going rate is. If the company gets busted, it needs to pay fines. If there is a shortage of legal workers, this needs to be proven and the shortfall should be made up by hiring illegal workers. And the government needs to make allowances for this. And at that point, I don't think the former illegal workers (who were given the right to work by our government) should get paid any differently than the legal workers.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9931

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52 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I understand that. But, should illegal immigrants be getting minimum wage and snack breaks? I thought they were illegal and thus ineligible for employment.

You don't want to incentivize employers to hire undocumented workers. That hurts documented workers. Same rules for everyone.

And throw employers hiring undocumented workers in prison and make them do manual labor at 25 cents a day. They need to understand the value of hard work. 

Of course - that will just incentive shady ass motherfuckers to make even more money off of prison/slave labor. 

A nation of sociopaths in charge. America - fuck yeah!

 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I disagree. They aren't legal workers and unless we are using a work visa type program, they need to be paid under-the-table whatever the going rate is. If the company gets busted, it needs to pay fines. If there is a shortage of legal workers, this needs to be proven and the shortfall should be made up by hiring illegal workers. And the government needs to make allowances for this. And at that point, I don't think the former illegal workers (who were given the right to work by our government) should get paid any differently than the legal workers.

I agree, illegals should be sent packing, but I also believe we need a guest worker visa program.  There's no reason foreign nationals can't come here to work

LEGALLY !!!!!

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Brothahorn

Brothahorn 10081

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The notion that those treated unjustly will rise up is a noble one. But, it's not reality. Look around you at all the shitholes in the world where they have class/caste systems and even more barbaric distinctions between the haves and have nots. How are the People's revolution working out for them? Going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of uprisings these days are against systems that are opposite of ours. Our system is not without issues, but the American dream is still there for the majority. You may have to work a lil bit harder than your neighbor or the trust baby, but that's life. The person behind you may have to work harder than you to achieve his dream. Plus our have-nots are mainly content with their iphones and tvs, they're not upsetting the apple cart. The looters are just scum, who will take advantage of any situation they can.

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Brothahorn

Brothahorn 10081

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Taking the bobs advice and actually reporting the political posts in the hopes that DT can actually not be about political parties.

Look at you working for the man and reporting your fellow citizens. I am ashamed of you, Comrade.

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VABuckeye

VABuckeye 2472

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Who was arguing that looting isn't theft?

It absolutely is theft. Anyone who does it should be prosecuted in a fair justice system. Same for the many types of theft that steal from the workers at a rate and amount higher than any looting movement could ever dream of.

Are you arguing that workers deserve the same pay as owners?   The same pay as those that risk everything to start a business?  Please explain. 

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VABuckeye

VABuckeye 2472

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Being hurt by what, wage theft?

Do you think a minimum wage employee or undocumented immigrant is in a more powerful position with regards to making themselves whole after theft than business owners?

You lost me at undocumented immigrant 

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VABuckeye

VABuckeye 2472

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Posted

Re: California 

have any of you had to deal with California labor laws?   Well, I have.  Good luck with them.  The most employee friendly labor laws I’ve had to deal with. 
 

bad teammate not directed at you.  You are obviously not an employer. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13115

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

Re: California 

have any of you had to deal with California labor laws?   Well, I have.  Good luck with them.  The most employee friendly labor laws I’ve had to deal with.

What's your argument?

I know asking your lot a direct question and expecting a clear answer that isn't just unformed sarcasm or outrage is foolish, but I will persist in attempting to pull meaning out of the whining.

Is your argument that wage theft doesn't happen in California because you think they have the most employee-friendly labor laws?

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