Active shooter thread

[Bama Chick 28595]

Why? So 40 of them can stand around the next time?

[DigglerontheHoof 20449]

1 minute ago, Satchel said:

What American institutions are cons still allowed to trust?

The NRA, Ku Klux Klan, Fundamentalist churches and Proud Boys. 

[elfenix 34000]

Just now, Satchel said:

What American institutions are cons still allowed to trust?

NRA, API, WSPA, SBC, NSSF, GOP, KGB, NAR, NHRA, COPAS, and USBP.

[Dahobbs 17088]

24 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I don't have the time or the inclination to read that study right now . . . isn't the disagreement that Ana says the data say "X" but Dahobbs says the study specifically concludes "Y"?

Don't come at me, I'm just observing.

Rand wasn't doing a study, but rather collating existing studies. The conversation was about the overall policy implications of the data. We both agree on what the Rand conclusion says. For instance, we both agree there is decent support that waiting periods have an impact on homicides.  However, the data is seriously limited for most any other end point. But I don't think you can or should draw broad policy implications from those limitations because the data is being intentionally limited by the side arguing against any sort of gun safety reform. We have a good theory and some supporting data. We'll need to pass new laws to get better data. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Dahobbs

[Satchel 6889]

Uvalde pediatrician revealed for the first time in his congressional testimony, that two of the murdered children were decapitated by shots to the head from the AR-15. 
Why anybody thinks this weapon should be in the hands of American citizens is mystifying.

[Dahobbs 17088]

17 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Ah, yes. No I understand that.  I thought you were speaking more philosophically, particularly about what the data would say in detail wrt demographic breakdowns, suicides, etc.  

Are we back to trusting the CDC?  

"We" never stopped trusting the CDC. 

[Satchel 6889]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

"We" never stopped trusting the CDC. 

This^

[David Dennison 17658]

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Rand wasn't doing a study, but rather collating existing studies. The conversation was about the overall policy implications of the data. We both agree on what the Rand conclusion says. For instance, we both agree there is decent support that waiting periods have an impact on homicides.  However, the data is seriously limited for most any other end point. But I don't think you can or should draw broad policy implications from those limitations because the data is being intentionally limited by the side arguing against any sort of gun safety reform. The we have a good theory and some supporting data. We'll need to pass new laws to get better data. 

[jimmyjazz 45055]

4 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Uvalde pediatrician revealed for the first time in his congressional testimony, that two of the murdered children were decapitated by shots to the head from the AR-15. 
Why anybody thinks this weapon should be in the hands of American citizens is mystifying.

Have you ever tried to decapitate a raccoon?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Uvalde pediatrician revealed for the first time in his congressional testimony, that two of the murdered children were decapitated by shots to the head from the AR-15. 
Why anybody thinks this weapon should be in the hands of American citizens is mystifying.

It's so frustrating to have to "compromise" to try and raise the age to 21 from 18 just to get anything even remotely possible done. Fuck that. I want them off the streets.

Let's be honest, we talk a lot about the hour that the police didn't go into the classrooms. This was actually likely over for these children in minutes, if not seconds. And an 18 year old could buy one like it was nothing.

[Satchel 6889]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Have you ever tried to decapitate a raccoon?

Why hunt with an AR unless you’re trying to make potted meat?

[C-Man 26535]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

"We" never stopped trusting the CDC. 

 

5 minutes ago, Satchel said:

This^

I'll admit the CDC's messaging on COVID was a bit uneven, at least at the outset of the pandemic, but most of that was due to TFG being in office.

[Satchel 6889]

Just now, C-Man said:

 

I'll admit the CDC's messaging on COVID was a bit uneven, at least at the outset of the pandemic, but most of that was due to TFG being in office.

Agree, and some of it was due to how quickly new information required updated messaging.

[C-Man 26535]

3 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Why hunt with an AR unless you’re trying to make potted meat?

I like to cook molecularly (this is bullshit but go with me here) and AR-15's help with that prep as it pertains to prairie dogs

[C-Man 26535]

5 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Agree, and some of it was due to how quickly new information required updated messaging.

Absolutely, they call it a "novel" coronavirus for a reason -- it's fucking new.

[RomaVicta 29472]

20 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

But I don't think you can or should draw broad policy implications from those limitations because the data is being intentionally limited by the side arguing against any sort of gun safety reform. We have a good theory and some supporting data. We'll need to pass new laws to get better data. 

Awwll git raht on that.

[fattyflattie 4631]

16 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

"We" never stopped trusting the CDC. 

 

15 minutes ago, Satchel said:

This^

Bullshit. There were several questionable calls made that even our level headed posters were discussing in the Covid thread. I know you think you have a gotcha, but I’d bet dollars to donuts I was vaccinated as soon or sooner than yall. I got it literally as soon as my age group was avail.  But I know, shitflinging don’t mind. 

[Satchel 6889]

5 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

 

Bullshit. There were several questionable calls made that even our level headed posters were discussing in the Covid thread. I know you think you have a gotcha, but I’d bet dollars to donuts I was vaccinated as soon or sooner than yall. I got it literally as soon as my age group was avail.  But I know, shitflinging don’t mind. 

It’s possible to make questionable calls when facts on the ground and in the labs were being synthesized in real time. I’m not sure what the gotcha is supposed to be.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Satchel

[fattyflattie 4631]

Just now, Satchel said:

It’s possible to make questionable calls when facts on the ground in the labs were being synthesized in real time. I’m not sure what the gotcha is supposed to be.

I remember specifically, when I went from 100% faith (I don’t know why I had 100% faith in anything) to less than 100, but it was when Trump was still in office and shit was just getting kicked off.  They went from a serious warning, immediately (like next day) to backed off if it, back when he was saying it was no big deal.  It has shades of marking on a map with a sharpie to me.  I remember it dawning on me for the first time they might actually be politically influenced. Then it seemed like they lined back out like normal. But I followed the C19 thread even after Covid was “over” and there was lots of muttering about how the CDC had become a shell of what it once was.   It wasn’t particular policy (although I’m sure it was C19) but it was sure af on both the CR and DT threads, and it wasn’t extremist shitheels cursing down the CDC. It absolutely seemed like consensus that they aren’t what they once were, or were trending that way quickly.  

[RomaVicta 29472]

Damage caused by an ordinary pistol round on a block of gel.

 

As a comparison, below is the devastating damage caused by a hollow point pistol round, the deadliest non-military round.

 

A  look at what a NATO round does when it strikes test gel.

 

The one at the top is certainly powerful enough to drop a person or kill a person. Why, again, do we need the other ammunition?

[4th&Five 41055]

 

[Satchel 6889]

9 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I remember specifically, when I went from 100% faith (I don’t know why I had 100% faith in anything) to less than 100, but it was when Trump was still in office and shit was just getting kicked off.  They went from a serious warning, immediately (like next day) to backed off if it, back when he was saying it was no big deal.  It has shades of marking on a map with a sharpie to me.  I remember it dawning on me for the first time they might actually be politically influenced. Then it seemed like they lined back out like normal. But I followed the C19 thread even after Covid was “over” and there was lots of muttering about how the CDC had become a shell of what it once was.   It wasn’t particular policy (although I’m sure it was C19) but it was sure af on both the CR and DT threads, and it wasn’t extremist shitheels cursing down the CDC. It absolutely seemed like consensus that they aren’t what they once were, or were trending that way quickly.  

How the Trump administration undermined the CDC:

https://www.science.org/content/article/inside-story-how-trumps-covid-19-coordinator-undermined-cdc

[RomaVicta 29472]

23 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

 

Bullshit. There were several questionable calls made that even our level headed posters were discussing in the Covid thread. I know you think you have a gotcha, but I’d bet dollars to donuts I was vaccinated as soon or sooner than yall. I got it literally as soon as my age group was avail.  But I know, shitflinging don’t mind. 

Would you agree that the CDC is our best option for getting information regarding a new disease? I'm not asking if they're perfect. That's not the standard. 

Can you name a preferable choice for information regarding disease in the US?

If the New York Times makes an error or publishes a false report, does that mean it it no longer reliable as a source of news? Is your answer swayed by the fact that the NYT publishes their errors and fires those responsible?

Lastly, did the executive branch promote sound medical advice or even a fair warning about the potential danger of the pandemic? Might this have had a part in making some citizens doubt the CDC?

A little background:

From Forbes:

Quote

TOPLINE

 Trump appointed communications officials in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have been looking over the agency’s weekly Covid-19 reports before they’re published, a Politico investigation found, and in some cases have successfully put pressure on scientists to change reports that would undermine President Donald Trump’s positive message about the pandemic.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by RomaVicta
Well done, Satchel. That was the other article I considered using.

[RomaVicta 29472]

5 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Let's hope this doesn't disrupt the passing of urgently needed legislation to protect Supreme Court Judges.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

I mean, it is Thursday. If anything, today's shooting is starting a little late.

[SmokeyTheBear 5551]

11 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

HOW MANY DOORS ARE THERE????!!!!

[Anastasis 23191]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

I think Anastasis and I are generally in agreement on this issue even if the conversation is unnecessarily argumentative sometimes (and I'm partly to blame for that). 

I think that we probably agree on more than not in general in terms of what can and should be done. Increase age for purchase, universal NICS checks on all transfers, waiting periods for the firearms that are most commonly associated with mass shootings. I think that argumentative is fine, and not offense to me. We should be absolutely be pushing these things back and forth. I think that deflecting reasonable points as simply contrarian is lazy, esp in light of the the items acknowledged above in terms of what I think we can agree in full on. I still think that a better description wrt broad impacts of waiting periods is that "the limited data are inconclusive". I don't really think that sample size is the problem, at least based on looking at the confidence intervals.  Variability based on implementation state to state is certainly a potential issue. We agree that more data and research would be useful, but we are admittedly arguing around a very narrow point in the grand scheme of things. I think that waiting periods on certain weapons is a reasonable step based on the information that we do have, and balancing of the various interests in play here. 

 

[Leeroy Jenkins 2338]

All of these damn false flag operations.  Geez.  

[Pancho 41818]

 

[fattyflattie 4631]

46 minutes ago, Satchel said:

How the Trump administration undermined the CDC:

https://www.science.org/content/article/inside-story-how-trumps-covid-19-coordinator-undermined-cdc

Yep. That was first time it dawned on me that they were able to be swayed.  Naive of me I guess before that, but I always saw them as apolitical (which I guess they largely are).  I’ll leave it up to others to tell me if they are more or less than they were 25-30 years ago. 

[Leeroy Jenkins 2338]

7 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

Fucking POS coward.  

[elfenix 34000]

there's one of those "what i think my job is, what my family thinks my job is, what the public thinks my job is, what my job really is" memes for cops out there, just waiting for a talented and pithy artist. 

[Stringer 1398]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

 

 

I read an article a while back in GQ or Esquire on this.  There is some shitty office in WV that has gun records (assuming stores send in data, which they often do not).  They were not allowed to digitize the files, so there were boxes and boxes of paper records that they would have to comb through if they were trying to identify a gun.

So, when you see them call in a serial number on your favorite shitty network cop show, know that that report does not come back instantaneously like they show.  It takes weeks to get that info back.

[Nivek 16643]

there's one of those "what i think my job is, what my family thinks my job is, what the public thinks my job is, what my job really is" memes for cops out there, just waiting for a talented and pithy artist. 

Panel 1: beat up black kid.
Panel 2: help stop bank robber (kids view) , eat donuts wife’s view
Panel 3: beat up black kids
Panel 4: sleeping in car with box of donuts.

[lemonlime 5482]

2 hours ago, Satchel said:

What American institutions are cons still allowed to trust?

trump.  that's it.

[Guest]

So New York has already signed into law that does the following:

"In New York, we're taking bold steps to protect the people of our state. I am proud to sign a comprehensive bill package that prohibits the sale of semiautomatic weapons to people under 21, bans body armor sales outside of people in select professions, closes critical gun law loopholes and strengthens our Red Flag Law to keep guns away from dangerous people—new measures that I believe will save lives. 

Texas? We have committees that are doing... well... meeting? Just keep slow playing it Governor. It will all go away... until the next one that's even worse. 

[cmontexas 3206]

Texas lege springing into action to protect kids from the dangers of playing varsity ball

 

[RomaVicta 29472]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

Yep. That was first time it dawned on me that they were able to be swayed.  Naive of me I guess before that, but I always saw them as apolitical (which I guess they largely are).  I’ll leave it up to others to tell me if they are more or less than they were 25-30 years ago. 

Wanna take a swing at my questions?

[B00M 5999]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Damage caused by an ordinary pistol round on a block of gel.

 

As a comparison, below is the devastating damage caused by a hollow point pistol round, the deadliest non-military round.

 

A  look at what a NATO round does when it strikes test gel.

 

The one at the top is certainly powerful enough to drop a person or kill a person. Why, again, do we need the other ammunition?

All that damage you see is the hollow point dissipating energy that would otherwise cause it to penetrate further. Full metal jacket rounds used in self defense are more likely to exit the threat and keep traveling with still deadly potential. 

Bystanders are at greater risk if people are forced to use FMJ for defense.

[WhatTheBuck 28574]

5 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

2 Uvalde Victims Who 'Loved Each Other' To Be Buried Side By Side

Annabell Guadalupe Rodriguez and Xavier James Lopez, both 10, would text "I love you" to each other at bedtime, their mothers said.

Annabell Guadalupe Rodriguez and Xavier James Lopez were sweethearts: They passed notes in class, texted each other before bed and made the honor roll together on the day they died.

They were killed alongside 17 other children and two teachers when a gunman opened fire in Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, on May 24. They were 10 years old.

Their mothers, Monica Gallegos and Felicha Martinez, told ABC News they had decided the two children would be buried side by side this week at Hillcrest Cemetery in Uvalde.

They told ABC News the kids’ friendship began on the first day of fourth grade. Annabell came home from school and told her mom about a boy who smelled and dressed “really nice.”

The kids had actually played together when they were just toddlers, and their families got together for barbecues not long after they became friends again.

The moms soon discovered that the kids were texting each other to say “I love you” at bedtime.

“Me and Felicha would laugh, like, ‘How do y’all know about love?’” Gallegos told ABC News.

Their teacher, Arnulfo Reyes, who is still in the hospital recovering from two gunshot wounds, said Xavier would make things for Annabell and write notes for her.

“It brings a smile to your face just to think they really loved each other,” he said.

Annabell was buried on Wednesday. Her family said in her obituary that she was a “sweet young girl” who loved the color blue, watching TikTok videos and spending time with her sisters and family.

Xavier was buried a day earlier. His cousin Lisa Garza said he was a loving and bubbly boy who loved to play baseball and dance with his brothers and his mom.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/uvalde-victims-xavier-annabell-buried_n_62a11e45e4b0c770989ba396?utm_campaign=share_twitter&ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

Goddamnit, that’s heartbreaking. 

[RomaVicta 29472]

4 minutes ago, B00M said:

All that damage you see is the hollow point dissipating energy that would otherwise cause it to penetrate further. Full metal jacket rounds used in self defense are more likely to exit the threat and keep traveling with still deadly potential. 

Bystanders are at greater risk if people are forced to use FMJ for defense.

Well, I don't know that many people will have to defend their homes by firing into a crowd. I also doubt that hollow points were developed to serve humanity. I've only heard them discussed in terms of killing power.

The S&W .38 I inherited from my mother came with four bullets, all "dum dums." My mother was a small, fearless woman. I'm sure she wanted to kill whomever deserved shooting. No scenario in her mind ever involved a shoot out in a crowd.

You clearly know more about firearms than I do. If a person keeps a gun in the house, would it be better to load it with a deadly hollow point or with the FMJ? If the gun is accidentally discharged, would you want a family member accidentally shot by a hollow point or the FMJ? I know my answer.

I do appreciate the knowledge you provide. 

[WhatTheBuck 28574]

55 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Panel 1: beat up black kid.
Panel 2: help stop bank robber (kids view) , eat donuts wife’s view
Panel 3: beat up black kids
Panel 4: sleeping in car with box of donuts.

Spend a quarter of your shift in a parking lot next to another cop, with your patrol cars pointing in opposite directions so you can chat with each other through your open driver’s windows, instead of actually doing your jobs. Donuts optional.

Maybe that’s not such a bad thing.

[B00M 5999]

59 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Well, I don't know that many people will have to defend their homes by firing into a crowd. I also doubt that hollow points were developed to serve humanity. I've only heard them discussed in terms of killing power.

The S&W .38 I inherited from my mother came with four bullets, all "dum dums." My mother was a small, fearless woman. I'm sure she wanted to kill whomever deserved shooting. No scenario in her mind ever involved a shoot out in a crowd.

You clearly know more about firearms than I do. If a person keeps a gun in the house, would it be better to load it with a deadly hollow point or with the FMJ? If the gun is accidentally discharged, would you want a family member accidentally shot by a hollow point or the FMJ? I know my answer.

I do appreciate the knowledge you provide. 

Hollow point without a doubt. If you're having to shoot in your house, you use HP to minimize penetration to reduce the chances of a round going into a bedroom or entering a neighbor's house. FMJ is a practice* round and in a home defense scenario, just makes the situation more dangerous for your family and neighbors. 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by B00M
*because it's cheaper and unfit for self defense. It's still very deadly.

[Firemans4Horn 16852]

1 hour ago, Stringer said:

I read an article a while back in GQ or Esquire on this.  There is some shitty office in WV that has gun records (assuming stores send in data, which they often do not).  They were not allowed to digitize the files, so there were boxes and boxes of paper records that they would have to comb through if they were trying to identify a gun.

So, when you see them call in a serial number on your favorite shitty network cop show, know that that report does not come back instantaneously like they show.  It takes weeks to get that info back.

Yeah, I read it when it came out like you. Still sticks out in my mind 6 years later.
 

A department set up to fail, and really a department set up to not even try. 
 

Inside the Federal Bureau of Too Many Guns

[RomaVicta 29472]

22 minutes ago, B00M said:

Hollow point without a doubt. If you're having to shoot in your house, you use HP to minimize penetration to reduce the chances of a round going into a bedroom or entering a neighbor's house. FMJ is a practice* round and in a home defense scenario, just makes the situation more dangerous for your family and neighbors. 

 

Maybe I didn't make my point clearly enough. I wouldn't be surprised. Put simply, if a round is accidentally fired in the house, wouldn't you prefer to have a bullet that is the least devastating? Below is an article published by NPR from another source.

Quote

Accidental gunshot deaths by children handling a gun jumped 31% during the start of the COVID-19 pandemic compared to a year earlier, new data shows.

There were 98 deaths that resulted from unintentional shootings by children from March through December 2019 compared to 128 over that same period in 2020, research by the advocacy group Everytown for Gun Safety shows.

And the trend continues to worsen during the pandemic, the groups says.

So far, in 2021 there have been at least 259 unintentional shootings by children, resulting in 104 deaths and 168 injuries nationally, according to the group's #NotAnAccident Index. Everytown is a U.S. nonprofit that advocates for gun control.

BUSINESS

1st-Time Gun Buyers Help Push Record U.S. Gun Sales Amid String Of Mass Shootings

At that pace the organization projects these incidents in 2021 are set to surpass even the record reached in 2017. That year 383 cases of accidental shootings by kids occurred and at least 156 people were killed.

These are just children accidentally discharging weapons. More than half result in fatality. I don't think it's a reach to say that the lethality rate would be minimized by having the full metal jacket round in the gun.

I believe a shot from a .32 or a .38 would be quite destructive even if FMJ. I question the likelihood of a person firing a weapon intentionally in his house where a family member would just happen to be behind the targeted person.

I look forward to your response. I won't argue this any further. Best wishes.

 

[Serak The Preparer 3408]

5 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Maybe I didn't make my point clearly enough. I wouldn't be surprised. Put simply, if a round is accidentally fired in the house, wouldn't you prefer to have a bullet that is the least devastating? 

As is often the case the argument is both right and wrong. The essence is that FMJ rounds are less lethal to what they hit but are more likely to penetrate the target and/or walls and hit a secondary target. Hollow points are more lethal to what they hit but less likely to hit secondary targets.

I don't know enough to make any assumptions on average accuracy, total damage done, etc., but I do get that a case could be made for either as a "safer" bullet.

[jimmyjazz 45055]

I can see that.

When I was a kid, a guy who lived up the street, definitely an outcast in our HS, was cleaning his hunting rifle, failed to confirm it was unloaded, it went off, and the bullet went through the wall and hit & killed his sister.

He might have been an outcast, but that was a level of lifelong guilt I wouldn't wish on anyone.  It was brutal.

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

5 hours ago, Pancho said:

 

Fucking cowards

[C-Man 26535]

[B00M 5999]

3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Maybe I didn't make my point clearly enough. I wouldn't be surprised. Put simply, if a round is accidentally fired in the house, wouldn't you prefer to have a bullet that is the least devastating? Below is an article published by NPR from another source.

These are just children accidentally discharging weapons. More than half result in fatality. I don't think it's a reach to say that the lethality rate would be minimized by having the full metal jacket round in the gun.

I believe a shot from a .32 or a .38 would be quite destructive even if FMJ. I question the likelihood of a person firing a weapon intentionally in his house where a family member would just happen to be behind the targeted person.

I look forward to your response. I won't argue this any further. Best wishes.

 

All good dude, you ask interesting questions.

So in my opinion you can't plan around mitigating a negligent discharge. You have to prevent it by securing your firearm and teaching firearm safety to your kids. Biometric safes give security and quick access. 

There are no accidental discharges. Failing to secure your firearm is negligence. Discharging a round in your house or creating a situation where someone else can is negligent. If there is a ND, the hollow point might actually save your ass by getting stuck in a wall.

Off topic but it would be great if schools taught firearm safety. Maybe in late elementary when it can leave an impression and maybe save lives. Especially in school districts that allow teachers to carry.