Turbo Tax can EABOD

[Neonmoon 38126]

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/17/heres-who-qualifies-for-irs-free-direct-file-pilot-program-in-2024.html
 

The IRS on Tuesday unveiled more details about its direct filing pilot program launching for the 2024 tax season.

Known as Direct File, the pilot will allow certain taxpayers to electronically file federal tax returns for free directly through the IRS, the agency told reporters on a press call.

Starting in 2024, Arizona, California, Massachusetts and New York will integrate state tax filings into the pilot program. Taxpayers from Alaska, Florida, New Hampshire, Nevada, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington and Wyoming may also be eligible.

An IRS official estimates “at least several hundred thousand taxpayers across the country” will have the option to participate in the 2024 pilot program.

[Bevo 13417]

Ha, wait for the fraud. Lots of people are going to file their taxes only to find out someone else already did it for them and collected the refund.

[UTGrad98 2183]

So who am i giving my $400 a year to now to prepare my family's taxes? What a scam.  

[atomheartbevo 88750]

Tax software companies are the reason tax filing is as complicated as it is.

[Hornius Emeritus 12332]

5 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Tax software companies are the reason tax filing is as complicated as it is.

Having watched my father in agonistical spasms as little drops of blood appeared on his forehead while filing his tax returns in the 1970s, I disagree.

[DalTxHornFan 3066]

46 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Congress and the bloated IRS tax code is Tax software companies are the reason tax filing is as complicated as it is.

FIFY.

[CooterBrown 17695]

Ha, wait for the fraud. Lots of people are going to file their taxes only to find out someone else already did it for them and collected the refund.

That happened to me two years ago. Tried to file through Turbo Tax and got a message that my return had already been submitted. Had to fill out a fraud form and mail in a paper copy instead.

Joke was on them though since I owed an additional $15,000!

[atomheartbevo 88750]

58 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

Having watched my father in agonistical spasms as little drops of blood appeared on his forehead while filing his tax returns in the 1970s, I disagree.

It's 2023.  The IRS has everything in a digital format, and for most Americans (non-freelancers) they have all of your info from your employer.  I'm not saying we should be able to reduce it to a postcard, but it shouldn't take as long as it does.

16 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

FIFY.

Who do you think the tax software companies are bribing?

[DalTxHornFan 3066]

I've been a CPA for over 40 years.  The tax code was still very complicated back when we prepared tax returns by hand in pencil. 

The tax software (both the professional stuff that accounting firms use and the retail stuff like TurboTax) has made it much easier to prepare returns and to deal with complex stuff like Alternative Minimum Tax, Qualified Business Income deductions, Self Employment tax, operating or capital loss carryforwards, depreciation, etc.

The free filing approach may be fine for many W-2 folks that don't have any deductions, rental properties, or other business interests.

But high net worth business owners (like all the Surly lawyers) that have pass-through partnership income, different business interests, complex investments, and such are never gonna be interested in just trusting the IRS to tell them what they owe.

[52-80 18962]

4 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Who do you think the tax software companies are bribing?

are the bribe-takers free of blame?

with 600+ members of congress and senate i kinda feel like we shouldnt put it all on just 1 corporation

[Keef 717]

The IRS could do your taxes for you and then send you a completed return for you to sign off on or supplement as you think is necessary.  For the vast majority of Americans, they have all of your info - when you get a W-2, 1099, etc., the issuer has to send a copy to the IRS as well.  This has been proposed many times, only to be shut down by Intuit lobby.  

[Guest]

6 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Tax software companies are the reason tax filing is as complicated as it is.

False.

It takes me less than 30 minutes a year, for $39 or whatever, and every form is there.

Used to be a hassle even with my penny-ante shit before that.

 

That being said, if I'm eligible on the free shit, guess what I'm gonna use?

[WBT 20131]

About 5 years ago I got tired of paying turbotax every year and printed out all the forms and filled them out by hand.  Never again.

[Neonmoon 38126]

2 hours ago, Keef said:

The IRS could do your taxes for you and then send you a completed return for you to sign off on or supplement as you think is necessary.  For the vast majority of Americans, they have all of your info - when you get a W-2, 1099, etc., the issuer has to send a copy to the IRS as well.  This has been proposed many times, only to be shut down by Intuit lobby.  

Exactly. We should not be involved in the process. 

[Jiggy-Z 3419]

8 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

That happened to me two years ago. Tried to file through Turbo Tax and got a message that my return had already been submitted. Had to fill out a fraud form and mail in a paper copy instead.

Joke was on them though since I owed an additional $15,000!

Kind of humblebrag?

[Hard Times 281]

This is good news. Fuck Turbo Tax, I was paying nearly $100 to do it online and it was never correct. When I lived in IL I could do the state website for free instead of TT state for $50 and it always worked perfect. Hopefully this will too.

[Macanudo 12649]

11 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Tax software companies are the reason tax filing is as complicated as it is.

And the Accounting/Consulting firms.  

[Keef 717]

16 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

And the Accounting/Consulting firms.  

Not really.  Our tax code is complicated because we administer an income tax system with graduated rates.  What is and isn't "income" and when you should be taxed on it isn't straightforward at all.  People often say they want a flat tax on all consumption items, but the issue there is that poor and middle income folks get screwed because they spend a larger portion of their income and don't save as much.  The more "fair" you make the tax code, the more complicated it becomes as a result.  Congress of course doesn't help matters by passing absurd laws that are broad and then relying on an understaffed IRS to fill in the blanks.  The loopholes Congress writes in for lobbying interests - and there are many - are also awful.  

[RPM 26073]

10 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I've been a CPA for over 40 years.  The tax code was still very complicated back when we prepared tax returns by hand in pencil. 

The tax software (both the professional stuff that accounting firms use and the retail stuff like TurboTax) has made it much easier to prepare returns and to deal with complex stuff like Alternative Minimum Tax, Qualified Business Income deductions, Self Employment tax, operating or capital loss carryforwards, depreciation, etc.

The free filing approach may be fine for many W-2 folks that don't have any deductions, rental properties, or other business interests.

But high net worth business owners (like all the Surly lawyers) that have pass-through partnership income, different business interests, complex investments, and such are never gonna be interested in just trusting the IRS to tell them what they owe.

I'm not Big Cigar Surly, but I do alright and my shit is complicated. It would take a CPA if I didn't have software that knows more than I do to fill shit out right and avoid getting audited.

[WBT 20131]

12 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/17/heres-who-qualifies-for-irs-free-direct-file-pilot-program-in-2024.html

Quote

“In this limited pilot for 2024, we will be working closely with the states that have agreed to participate in an important test run of the state integration,” IRS Commissioner Danny Werfel said. 

I wonder if Terry Dean also contributed

[crash_davis 23038]

1 hour ago, Keef said:

Not really.  Our tax code is complicated because we administer an income tax system with graduated rates.  What is and isn't "income" and when you should be taxed on it isn't straightforward at all.  People often say they want a flat tax on all consumption items, but the issue there is that poor and middle income folks get screwed because they spend a larger portion of their income and don't save as much.  The more "fair" you make the tax code, the more complicated it becomes as a result.  Congress of course doesn't help matters by passing absurd laws that are broad and then relying on an understaffed IRS to fill in the blanks.  The loopholes Congress writes in for lobbying interests - and there are many - are also awful.  

It's complicated because rich assholes want loopholes to get around paying taxes. It shouldn't be that hard.

[gsoda3 3187]

maybe some will like that but no way am i trusting the government to get right what i owe them in taxes.  i got complicated things goin on ya know.

[52-80 18962]

2 hours ago, Keef said:

Not really.  Our tax code is complicated because we administer an income tax system with graduated rates.  What is and isn't "income" and when you should be taxed on it isn't straightforward at all.  People often say they want a flat tax on all consumption items, but the issue there is that poor and middle income folks get screwed because they spend a larger portion of their income and don't save as much.  The more "fair" you make the tax code, the more complicated it becomes as a result.  Congress of course doesn't help matters by passing absurd laws that are broad and then relying on an understaffed IRS to fill in the blanks.  The loopholes Congress writes in for lobbying interests - and there are many - are also awful.  

The progressive tax isnt the issue. Its similarly bracketed elsewhere. The difference is the immensity of the US tax code. 

To a degree its justified. Taxation is an instrumental way to govern. The 3rd most populous and by far most productive country necessarily have to have lots of different interests to cater to. 

But its a tad much. Do we need people to stay in equities to discount ltcg? Do we still need to incentivize property investors with 1031 exchanges? etc. Reassess the whole book

[Neonmoon 38126]

1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

Is this sarcasm? Or you mean not involved in the process until the end to verify, confirm/deny, appeal?

I actually like getting the first turn on my taxes and submitting, on my timeframe (usually early April) versus it being done for me.

Honestly, I don't trust the government to not make mistakes (IRS agents are still humans and tech is still sometimes buggy) and don't just want to given a non-negotiable invoice from the U.S. Government without recourse before it hits my inbox, with what we know the consequences are like for not paying in a timely manner.

Not involved in the end to verify, confirm/deny, appeal, etc.

I understand there are some people who are can't handle computers. I also understand there are some people that believe the government is the boogeyman. Fine. 

But whether it's a CPA with 40 years, Turbo Tax, or the IRS, they are all supposed to play by the same rules? Correct? There aren't two sets of tax codes, right? So it all boils down to something (CPA or Computer) asking you for all your inputs, then determining what you owe based on those inputs. 

Now I'm also fully aware of the argument that a very good, well paid tax accountant can structure your taxes in a way that benefits you or your company in the past, present, and future by not including certain inputs, all legally of course, that machine can't discern. My argument to that, is that, we can build a machine that does that if it's not aready a capability. 

 

[Neonmoon 38126]

Yeah, it's going to be a problem for a lot of jobs, and society in general. 

I understand there are many out there, and on this board that will say, "no computer can do what I do". I get it, and it's probably mostly true, we will still need experts in every field. I'm not saying advisors will go away, I'm just stating there will a lot less of them. For example, the down the middle W-2 people don't need a CPA to do their taxes. Turbo Tax has been doing their taxes for years online. Now, the IRS will cut out the stupid middleman and not charge a fee. 

The same can be said for many businesses. In the lending business, I hear this a lot. We will always need our job. Sure, but the majority of the easy down the middle 2 years of W2 don't need our help. They may be needy and want it, but it's not required to complete the task. There's just going to be less jobs available because of automation. 

Now, what will the impact on society be? Will people just pivot to other jobs? Maybe. But what? Even coders are seeing they may no longer be needed in 5 years due to AI. Can we all be waiters? Influencers? 

 

[CooterBrown 17695]

Last year my daughter had to file for the first time so I looked for something other than TurboTax.  I used FreeTaxUSA, which is an IRS approved e-file provider, to file her taxes. It was completely free and the interface was so much better than TurboTax that I will probably use it for my own taxes next year.  

Edited October 18, 2023 by CooterBrown

[Neonmoon 38126]

22 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

You mentioned you are in the lender business (assuming a banker, but possibly mortgage?). I read an interesting bit today about the DOJ potentially doing away with the realtor commission as we've known it and Refin CEO saying he thinks that would put half the realtors on the street. That's a ton of people.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-16/us-realtors-lucrative-fee-system-faces-mounting-antitrust-risk

I'm a lender. 

That class action lawsuit is a beast. Many of the firms have already settled. I don't believe the NAR has, but maybe. If the DOJ gets involved, it could get interesting. I don't think any of it matters until people stop agreeing to it. Maybe this will be the catalyst. 

In Europe, people are cutthroat about negotiating. Realtor commissions are max 2%. Tipping isn't a thing for the most part. 

I think Americans have become so accustomed to giving away their money, but more and more, people are starting to be like, wait, I'm tipping you for counter service? Wtf? 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, crash_davis said:

It's complicated because rich assholes want loopholes to get around paying taxes. It shouldn't be that hard.

Flat tax.  Let's go.

Oh damn...that hits people who pay no federal income tax.

Too bad.  Let's simplify.

Edited October 18, 2023 by slorch

[Chewbacca 7612]

17 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Tax software companies are the reason tax filing is as complicated as it is.

Even tax pros use software (that is a hell of a lot more powerful and better than TT).  Congress is the reason tax filing is as complicated as it is.

[Gene Parmesan 3951]

What % of the population is a W-2 employee taking the standard deductions with no side hustles?  That scenario takes all of 20 minutes to file.

[Samson's Wig 3154]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Even tax pros use software (that is a hell of a lot more powerful and better than TT).  Congress is the reason tax filing is as complicated as it is.

This.   Many members of Congress think the tax code is the best way to manipulate behavior.  The rest think it's the best way to pay back big donors.  Both sides fucking suck, as does anyone who supports this shit.

 

[Anastasis 23191]

I smell poors...

 

Who is eligible for IRS Direct File in 2024

“To ensure a good experience for taxpayers, the pilot will launch in phases,” Laurel Blatchford, chief implementation officer for the Inflation Reduction Act at the U.S. Department of the Treasury said.

For 2024, the pilot will focus on individual filers with “relatively simple returns,” but not all taxpayers will qualify. The IRS expects the program to include Form W-2 earnings, Social Security income, unemployment income and interest of $1,500 or less.

The agency also plans to include filers claiming the earned income tax credit, child tax credit and credit for other dependents, along with the standard deduction, student loan interest deduction and tax break for educator expenses.

However, some taxpayers will be excluded during the first year of the pilot, Werfel said.

 

 

But seriously, doing taxes is a fucking beating. Everytime I hit submit, I have legit no idea whether the shit is right or not, just hoping that I didn't do anything to trigger a red flag for an audit. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Anastasis

[Biff Tannen 44919]

47 minutes ago, slorch said:

Flat tax.  Let's go.

Oh damn...that hits people who pay no federal income tax.

Too bad.  Let's simplify.

Who pays no income tax?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Who pays no federal income tax?

About 35-40% of American households pay no federal income tax.   

Edited October 18, 2023 by slorch

[Samson's Wig 3154]

12 minutes ago, slorch said:

About 35-40% of American households pay no federal income tax.   

~40% for 2022 I believe, and quite a bit higher the two years before that.  I think that must have been a pandemic bump due to lost wages/jobs.   Somewhere around 10% don't bother to file at all.

[Guadaloopy 10757]

I remember when this commercial came out several years ago.  I just shook my head at the fact that our tax code is so complicated that H&R Block was touting the fact that they were bringing the most powerful AI (at the time) to bear on the general public's tax returns.

 

[Guest]

whatever.  I answered the question. 

 

[Samson's Wig 3154]

1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

Live pond today. The sun was blinding off this hook and yet you still caught a couple.

Ask a stupid question and get a simple answer.  I don't think anyone took whatever lame bait he was throwing.  Slorch merely earnestly answered his question.  If he was looking to poke holes in the flat tax comment, a more direct approach would have made more sense.  It's one of many ideas that sounds okay in theory but would never work in reality.  

[Captain Ron 12691]

21 hours ago, Bevo said:

Ha, wait for the fraud. Lots of people are going to file their taxes only to find out someone else already did it for them and collected the refund.

Wait for it? This has been going on for years now. That happened to my 2016 return. 

[abuelo gringo 313]

23 hours ago, BeardIP said:

When I got my first job in high school my dad just sent me to the local library to grab a paper 10-EZ form. I don't even think I made enough money to qualify as having to pay taxes but still had to report.

I filed when I was in jr. high and high schools but didn't need to taxwise.  All my employers back then withheld from my pay, so I had to file to get that witholding refunded.

[High Plains Drifter 10915]

On 10/18/2023 at 4:50 AM, Keef said:

The IRS could do your taxes for you and then send you a completed return for you to sign off on or supplement as you think is necessary.  For the vast majority of Americans, they have all of your info - when you get a W-2, 1099, etc., the issuer has to send a copy to the IRS as well.  This has been proposed many times, only to be shut down by Intuit lobby.  

 

But then how are people going to cheat on their taxes?

 

[DalTxHornFan 3066]

Here's another wrinkle for those that just want to have the IRS send you a bill for what the declare what you owe based upon all of the electronic data that has been sent to them about you:  

Venmo, The $600 Threshold, And You: What’s An (Honest) Taxpayer To Do?

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/venmo-600-threshold-and-you-whats-honest-taxpayer-do

As an example, say that you buy Longhorn season tickets for a group of your friends and they pay you back for their share of the cost through Venmo, PayPal, or Zelle.  Starting in 2024, that payment is going to be reported to the IRS on a Form 1099 that the IRS will assume to be income to you.  Good luck sorting all of that out with the IRS even under the current system, much less some kind of automated system where the IRS figures it all out for you automatically.

[Guest]

What if it’s a gift?  On Paypal it’s always a gift…

definitions vary. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by slorch

[DalTxHornFan 3066]

31 minutes ago, slorch said:

What if it’s a gift?  On Paypal it’s always a gift…

definitions vary. 

That's exactly what I'm saying.  There is no way for the IRS to know the circumstances of the payment.  To them, a payment made to a taxpayer reported on a Form 1099 is going to be automatically classified as taxable income.

[The Ace of Aces 4946]

The moment Vanguard went to consolidated brokerage accounts for overseas holdings, filing got much easier. 
 

Yea, I won’t qualify this ever. 

[52-80 18962]

On 10/18/2023 at 9:28 PM, Neonmoon said:

In Europe, people are cutthroat about negotiating. Realtor commissions are max 2%.

Wrong.  RE commission are established by cross-agency industry commissions, if not established by law, and are often higher than 3%.

[52-80 18962]

On 10/18/2023 at 11:00 PM, Samson's Wig said:

Many members of Congress think the tax code is the best way to manipulate behavior ...  Both sides fucking suck, as does anyone who supports this shit.

 

Im sorry what.  How do you alternatively propose encouraging changes in industry (say, domestic semiconductor production), society (more education), population shift (e.g. getting people to move somewhere), or basically anything else that we would want people to do.

It's like, the least-bad form of coercion.

[Samson's Wig 3154]

6 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Im sorry what.  How do you alternatively propose encouraging changes in industry (say, domestic semiconductor production), society (more education), population shift (e.g. getting people to move somewhere), or basically anything else that we would want people to do.

It's like, the least-bad form of coercion.

So you think that the tax code should be wielded as either a weapon or a means to manipulate decision-making?  That's fine, and you're not alone.  I disagree that it's the least bad form of coercion. I think there are better ways of accomplishing these goals and that the tax system should be as neutral as possible so that decisions are made for economic reasons and not tax reasons.   Many economists agree with this notion, and it's certainly not my idea.   Who doesn't agree with this?  Politicians.   

I'm not a free-for-all free-market proponent.  I'm all for the regulation of industries (the best form of which is eliminating tort reform and allowing bad actors to pay the consequences for their actions with their pocketbook - but good old-fashioned regulation through federal and state agencies is also great).  I'm also in support of propping up industries (such as your semiconductor example) through some form of subsidy which can take the form of loans, govt. contracts, etc.   The tax code doesn't have to be involved in these things (although refundable tax credits can be a reasonable use of it), and its use in this manner is exactly why it's a monster full of loopholes, contradictions, and general nonsense.  It's also one of the major reasons semiconductors were being built overseas in the first place - that's one problem with trying to use it for coercion, you almost always have unintended consequences.   Politicians love it more than anything else because Americans don't understand it and they can use it to benefit their donors and/or punish their enemies.  These are essentially the only ways the tax code is utilized anymore, even when they're dressed up as a subsidy or otherwise, and both types of uses are rife with corruption.  The insanity that is the varying rates for different types of capital income is a prime example of just how bunged up the system is.  Most notably, our tax code encourages debt over equity financing, which is just fucking stupid on its face and a big part of the economic woes we've seen over the last fifteen years. 

A completely tax-neutral system is not feasible (needed coercion should come in the form of refundable tax credits rather than deductions), but this notion should underpin any tax reform discussion, in my opinion.  It would result in a more transparent, approachable, and navigable tax system that would streamline economic decisions and ultimately further stabilize our economic system - which has become shockingly fragile in the last few decades thanks in large part to our tax code.

[52-80 18962]

18 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

So you think that the tax code should be wielded as either a weapon or a means to manipulate decision-making?  That's fine, and you're not alone.  I disagree that it's the least bad form of coercion. I think there are better ways of accomplishing these goals and that the tax system should be as neutral as possible so that decisions are made for economic reasons and not tax reasons.   Many economists agree with this notion, and it's certainly not my idea.   Who doesn't agree with this?  Politicians.   

Incentives as a motivator of behavior is also a basic principle of economics. The tax system is a means of implementing it.

Subsidies and other like-tools you mention are essentially different forms of taxation. That extra business you get from the govt through arbitrary award, that cheaper cost of financing, has net impact on your bottomline and the govt treasury in the same way as a discount on taxes. And its ultimately borne by everyone else, ie a tax. 

In the tax code theres a deduction for filing as married and child tax credit and those things incentivize family, and is not some controversial scheme by lawmakers to enrich themselves. That there are esoteric tax rules way past their shelf life and/or do not serve societal good I agree — and argued against upthread. Its just that you cant hate the game cuz you hate the playas. 

[Brew 2917]

I would say that most everyone on the CPA side would support a free file system. We don’t deal with the filers impacted for the most part. It’s a much larger risk to H&R Block, TurboTax, and all the f-ing hacks out there that shouldn’t be doing tax returns then it is to me. There are a lot of things that still aren’t covered by an IRS submitted form, so you are really only dealing with people that have W-2’s, investments (not great because there are still plenty of 1099’s missing basis information), retirement payments, etc. Rentals, businesses, K-1’s, a number with kids under 5 or over 18, etc all would fall outside of a free file system.

As far as the code, it’s complicated because it has always been a means for social engineering and that has been compounded the last 20 or so years. No one knows it front to back, so we’re all likely missing something at this point.