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Posted
19 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

So, anybody hear much about this alleged massive "dog fight" between India and Pakistan? Several sources reported on it yesterday, but then nothing since. Almost like nobody is sure it actually happened. 

“What I’m about to tell you is classified.  It could end my career…”

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Posted

Also, the fighters each country fly aren't what I would've expected. They both have a bunch of French stuff. Pakistan has a lot of Chinese stuff and a decent amount of American fighters. The Chinese jets are the more advanced. India has a lot of Russian stuff, but the French jets are more advanced. 

So, in the event of maximum escalation the alliances would be:

- The US would side with India who doesn't fly any US stuff (and be fighting against US made jets). 

- The French would side with India (and be fighting against French made jets).

- Russia would side with India and be fighting alongside traditional adversaries in the US and French and in opposition to its ally in China.

- China would side with Pakistan and be supporting US and French made fighters and fighting against its ally in Russia.

- I don't know about munitions, supplies etc stockpiled, but it seems like that could be a big problem for Pakistan since they wouldn't be getting anything else from the US or France...so they'd be losing support to about half of their entire air force.

But what if it escalated beyond a regional conflict? Those alliances seem like they would get quite a shakeup. Russia would have to abandon India to align with China, right? Then India loses support for about half it its air fleet. Seems like these two countries have not properly thought past the first part of this little dust up. If they let things go too far, they both get the shit end of the stick.

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Posted
2 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

But what if it escalated beyond a regional conflict? Those alliances seem like they would get quite a shakeup. Russia would have to abandon India to align with China, right? Then India loses support for about half it its air fleet. Seems like these two countries have not properly thought past the first part of this little dust up. If they let things go too far, they both get the shit end of the stick.

Russia is no condition to be supporting or fighting in another war.  Shit, they might have to pull forces out of Ukraine to put on the Chinese border.

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Posted
2 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

So, anybody hear much about this alleged massive "dog fight" between India and Pakistan? Several sources reported on it yesterday, but then nothing since. Almost like nobody is sure it actually happened. 

Either it didn't happen, or they both came out even and are too embarrassed for anybody to know they shot down, and lost, a bunch of aircraft.

Posted
2 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

So, anybody hear much about this alleged massive "dog fight" between India and Pakistan? Several sources reported on it yesterday, but then nothing since. Almost like nobody is sure it actually happened. 

Who knows. But the India-related subreddits are full of complaints about the sensationalist Indian media reporting completely fabricated action-adventure stories. 

Posted

Air Vice Marshal Aurangzeb Ahmed of the Pakistan Air Force has provided what he said were operational details of the battle between Pakistani and Indian jets, in which Pakistan claims to have shot down five Indian planes.

Ahmed, who is the deputy chief of operations, said the battle between Pakistani and Indian jets lasted for just over an hour.

He added that the battle involved at least 60 aircraft from India, including 14 Rafales, whereas the Pakistan side had 42 “hi-tech aircraft”, including US-made F-16s and Chinese-made JF-17s and J-10s.

“We had a plan. India had said they would have Rafales, and that’s why this time we targeted their centre of gravity in the shape of Rafales. This is why you see such good numbers [of planes downed],” Ahmed told reporters.

“We could have more numbers, but we showed restraint.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/5/9/live-india-pakistan-tensions-surge-as-both-sides-trade-attack-claims

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Posted
44 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Air Vice Marshal Aurangzeb Ahmed of the Pakistan Air Force has provided what he said were operational details of the battle between Pakistani and Indian jets, in which Pakistan claims to have shot down five Indian planes.

Ahmed, who is the deputy chief of operations, said the battle between Pakistani and Indian jets lasted for just over an hour.

He added that the battle involved at least 60 aircraft from India, including 14 Rafales, whereas the Pakistan side had 42 “hi-tech aircraft”, including US-made F-16s and Chinese-made JF-17s and J-10s.

“We had a plan. India had said they would have Rafales, and that’s why this time we targeted their centre of gravity in the shape of Rafales. This is why you see such good numbers [of planes downed],” Ahmed told reporters.

“We could have more numbers, but we showed restraint.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/5/9/live-india-pakistan-tensions-surge-as-both-sides-trade-attack-claims

 

 

image.gif.45340488a7352490f5b1e56389860c45.gif

 

 

 

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Posted

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. My thoughts:

 

1.) We don't allow Pakistan to use our planes in offensive capacities.  The F16 being involved would be an issue. 

 

2.) Rafales being shot down by JF16s would be shockingly unexpected unless they're using targeting systems and missiles we haven't considered.  Either would force us to reassess our understanding of Chinese capabilities.

 

3.) What's the J10's role in this? 

 

 

Posted
14 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. My thoughts:

 

1.) We don't allow Pakistan to use our planes in offensive capacities.  The F16 being involved would be an issue. 

 

2.) Rafales being shot down by JF16s would be shockingly unexpected unless they're using targeting systems and missiles we haven't considered.  Either would force us to reassess our understanding of Chinese capabilities.

 

3.) What's the J10's role in this? 

 

 

I know we underestimated Chinese capabilities on submarines for years.  We are finally coming around to that 

Posted
39 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

Rafael’s being shot down by JF16s would be shockingly unexpected unless they're using targeting systems and missiles we haven't considered.  Either would force us to reassess our understanding of Chinese capabilities.

 

It’s not the plane, it’s the pilot.

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Posted
On 5/8/2025 at 3:23 PM, Dennis Taylor said:

I always thought their dance battles deserved a thread, i was disappointed to see it's about a brewing war . Hopefully they can settle their differences without violence 

 

 

These guys don’t know what’s coming when they battle Nick Cannon in Drumline 2

Posted
3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

These guys don’t know what’s coming when they battle Nick Cannon in Drumline 2

Nick Cannon has 43 kids. He is no longer a threat.

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Posted

This conflict reminds me of the time I had a guy from Pakistan show up on an H-1B visa and I referred to him by the Indian pronunciation of his name. He freaked out and explained the difference in names.

My response was....

Nobody Gives A Shit GIF by South Park

 

Sent his ass back to Pakistan.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Parliament said:

“What I’m about to tell you is classified.  It could end my career…”

I incorrectly read that in Donald Sutherland's voice.  Tom Skerritt. 

 

Aw, hell:


"We were in the worst dogfight I ever dreamed of. There were bogeys like fireflies all over the sky. His F-4 was hit, and he was wounded, but he could've made it back. He stayed in it, saved three planes before he bought it."
 

Edited by dcbc
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Posted
4 hours ago, dcbc said:

Aw, hell:
"We were in the worst dogfight I ever dreamed of. There were bogeys like fireflies all over the sky. His F-4 was hit, and he was wounded, but he could've made it back. He stayed in it, saved three planes before he bought it."

So now we’re quoting Hot Shots?

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Posted

Reuters

Pakistan's defence minister said on Saturday that no meeting of the top military and civil body overseeing the country's nuclear arsenal had been scheduled following a military operation against India earlier in the day.

Pakistan's military said earlier that the prime minister had called on the authority to meet. The information minister did not respond immediately to a request for comment.

The worst fighting between the nuclear-armed rivals since 1999 has killed dozens of people on both sides and led to repeated calls for de-escalation from the United States and the G7 group of rich countries.

"This thing that you have spoken about (nuclear option) is present, but let's not talk about it - we should treat it as a very distant possibility, we shouldn't even discuss it in the immediate context," Pakistan Defence Minister Khawaja Asif told ARY TV.

"Before we get to that point, I think temperatures will come down. No meeting has happened of the National Command Authority, nor is any such meeting scheduled."

The Guardian

India and Pakistan have accused each other of cross-border missile strikes against major military targets, the most significant escalation so far in the brewing conflict between the two nuclear-armed neighbours.

On Saturday, India accused Pakistan of launching strikes on dozens of airbases and military headquarters across north India, using long-range weapons, drones and fighter aircraft. The accusations came a few hours after Pakistan said India had fired six surface-to-air missiles targeting three of Pakistan’s most important military bases early on Saturday morning.

Shortly afterwards, Pakistan officials confirmed they had begun their counter-attack against India, under the name Operation Bunyan Ul Marsoos, a phrase from the Qur’an roughly translating to “wall of lead”.

The claims of missile attacks on military targets deep inside India and Pakistan were seen as a worrying escalation in hostilities, bringing the two countries the closest they have been to war in decades.

According to the Indian army spokesperson Col Sofiya Qureshi, Pakistan struck first on Saturday. At a press conference, the Indian army accused Pakistan of attacking 26 sites in India, including the Pathankot military airfield in Punjab, Srinagar airport and Udhampur air force base in Indian-administered Kashmir, as well as “deplorable and cowardly” attacks on civilian infrastructure.

Qureshi said the “Indian Armed Forces successfully neutralised these threats” but added that some damage was done to equipment and personnel at four airbases. The foreign secretary, Vikram Misri, said claims by Pakistani media that airbases and advanced weapons systems had been destroyed in the strikes were “heavy on lies, misinformation and propaganda”.

 

Pakistan and India’s military right now:

Its Fine Ok GIF by ZDF Magazin Royale

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Posted
8 hours ago, F250 said:

This conflict reminds me of the time I had a guy from Pakistan show up on an H-1B visa and I referred to him by the Indian pronunciation of his name. He freaked out and explained the difference in names.

My response was....

Nobody Gives A Shit GIF by South Park

 

Sent his ass back to Pakistan.

jjxlR8.gif

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Posted
3 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Reuters

Pakistan's defence minister said on Saturday that no meeting of the top military and civil body overseeing the country's nuclear arsenal had been scheduled following a military operation against India earlier in the day.

Pakistan's military said earlier that the prime minister had called on the authority to meet. The information minister did not respond immediately to a request for comment.

The worst fighting between the nuclear-armed rivals since 1999 has killed dozens of people on both sides and led to repeated calls for de-escalation from the United States and the G7 group of rich countries.

"This thing that you have spoken about (nuclear option) is present, but let's not talk about it - we should treat it as a very distant possibility, we shouldn't even discuss it in the immediate context," Pakistan Defence Minister Khawaja Asif told ARY TV.

"Before we get to that point, I think temperatures will come down. No meeting has happened of the National Command Authority, nor is any such meeting scheduled."

The Guardian

India and Pakistan have accused each other of cross-border missile strikes against major military targets, the most significant escalation so far in the brewing conflict between the two nuclear-armed neighbours.

On Saturday, India accused Pakistan of launching strikes on dozens of airbases and military headquarters across north India, using long-range weapons, drones and fighter aircraft. The accusations came a few hours after Pakistan said India had fired six surface-to-air missiles targeting three of Pakistan’s most important military bases early on Saturday morning.

Shortly afterwards, Pakistan officials confirmed they had begun their counter-attack against India, under the name Operation Bunyan Ul Marsoos, a phrase from the Qur’an roughly translating to “wall of lead”.

The claims of missile attacks on military targets deep inside India and Pakistan were seen as a worrying escalation in hostilities, bringing the two countries the closest they have been to war in decades.

According to the Indian army spokesperson Col Sofiya Qureshi, Pakistan struck first on Saturday. At a press conference, the Indian army accused Pakistan of attacking 26 sites in India, including the Pathankot military airfield in Punjab, Srinagar airport and Udhampur air force base in Indian-administered Kashmir, as well as “deplorable and cowardly” attacks on civilian infrastructure.

Qureshi said the “Indian Armed Forces successfully neutralised these threats” but added that some damage was done to equipment and personnel at four airbases. The foreign secretary, Vikram Misri, said claims by Pakistani media that airbases and advanced weapons systems had been destroyed in the strikes were “heavy on lies, misinformation and propaganda”.

 

Pakistan and India’s military right now:

Its Fine Ok GIF by ZDF Magazin Royale

Has anyone told them you may not want to nuke the country that is right fucking next to you?

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Posted
12 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. My thoughts:

2.) Rafales being shot down by JF16s would be shockingly unexpected unless they're using targeting systems and missiles we haven't considered.  Either would force us to reassess our understanding of Chinese capabilities.

3.) What's the J10's role in this? 

I'm not sure why that would be surprising. The Rafale is a good 4th generation fighter with a nice EW suite, but it isn't stealth. Chinese PL 15s, which are one of top bvr air-to-air missiles around, aren't going to have any problem taking one down if given the opportunity. 

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Posted
15 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I'm not sure why that would be surprising. The Rafale is a good 4th generation fighter with a nice EW suite, but it isn't stealth. Chinese PL 15s, which are one of top bvr air-to-air missiles around, aren't going to have any problem taking one down if given the opportunity. 

This. Our race to get the F-35 in service wasn’t ever about making the money printer go brrrrrr for contractors.  It’s been obvious for a long time now that 4th gen aircraft are not particularly survivable in contested airspace.  We saw that in Ukraine already, it’s not like a MiG or Su shows up more on radar than a Rafale or F-16. 

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Posted
18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

India confirms the ceasefire but not the rest of Marco’s claims.

image.thumb.jpeg.6bed0fa11e3968f6530c120af5a93ca5.jpeg

 

This is fucking insane. 

Posted
5 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

I'm not sure why that would be surprising. The Rafale is a good 4th generation fighter with a nice EW suite, but it isn't stealth. Chinese PL 15s, which are one of top bvr air-to-air missiles around, aren't going to have any problem taking one down if given the opportunity. 

It's surprising because the JF16 doesn't carry PL 15s. JF16s shouldn't be able to see Rafales before they're seen, much less get in range to shoot them down.  That's why I asked about the J10s.

Posted
5 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This. Our race to get the F-35 in service wasn’t ever about making the money printer go brrrrrr for contractors.  It’s been obvious for a long time now that 4th gen aircraft are not particularly survivable in contested airspace.  We saw that in Ukraine already, it’s not like a MiG or Su shows up more on radar than a Rafale or F-16. 

With the Rafale it's not about its radar signature, its advantage was supposed to be its extended surveillance capabilities.  

Posted
On 5/8/2025 at 1:23 PM, Dennis Taylor said:

I always thought their dance battles deserved a thread, i was disappointed to see it's about a brewing war . Hopefully they can settle their differences without violence 

 

 

Just a matter of time before this happens.

Michael Jackson Dancing GIF by GIPHY News - Find & Share on ...

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Posted
1 hour ago, gsoda3 said:

It's surprising because the JF16 doesn't carry PL 15s. JF16s shouldn't be able to see Rafales before they're seen, much less get in range to shoot them down.  That's why I asked about the J10s.

The initial reports were J10s with PL-15s. We don’t know much about the PL-15s, but they’re pretty hyped up. I think this would be the first time any of our allies have seen them in action, but I could be wrong about that

Posted
6 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This. Our race to get the F-35 in service wasn’t ever about making the money printer go brrrrrr for contractors.  It’s been obvious for a long time now that 4th gen aircraft are not particularly survivable in contested airspace.  We saw that in Ukraine already, it’s not like a MiG or Su shows up more on radar than a Rafale or F-16. 

Agree!  Contested airspace on an asymmetrical battlefield, and legacy fighters are dead on arrival. The landscape of war is changing. 

The F-35's capability is its sensor fusion combined with the ability to "mindmap" a battlefield. Not only for itself but others across the full spectrum of the US air arsena.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Mother mopar said:

Agree!  Contested airspace on an asymmetrical battlefield, and legacy fighters are dead on arrival. The landscape of war is changing. 

The F-35's capability is its sensor fusion combined with the ability to "mindmap" a battlefield. Not only for itself but others across the full spectrum of the US air arsena.

The F-22 is insane and there's a reason no one else has them. 

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Posted
18 minutes ago, immamac said:

The F-22 is insane and there's a reason no one else has them. 

On one hand, I’d love to see how they perform in battle against somebody else’s best. On the other, if that were to happen, we’re probably in a world of shit already

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Posted
2 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

On one hand, I’d love to see how they perform in battle against somebody else’s best. On the other, if that were to happen, we’re probably in a world of shit already

You'd never know if they were in battle. That's what makes them insane. 

Its not the stealth that'd scary its the capabilities they give to other units and the extreme range they have.

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Posted
2 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

It's surprising because the JF16 doesn't carry PL 15s. JF16s shouldn't be able to see Rafales before they're seen, much less get in range to shoot them down.  That's why I asked about the J10s.

No reason it couldn't, and it appears Pakistan's models have been integrated with it. 

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/defence-news/air/update-pakistan-shows-jf-17-block-iii-fitted-with-pl-15-missiles-for-first-time

 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, immamac said:

The F-22 is insane and there's a reason no one else has them. 

Raptors are an air dominance fighter not a multipurpose fighter. They were built to defeat soviet era threats.  As the battlefield changes the tools we use to enforce policy must change too. 

I consult in the 5th generation sector, and it's good to be the US. 

Edited by Mother mopar
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Posted
1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

No reason it couldn't, and it appears Pakistan's models have been integrated with it. 

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/defence-news/air/update-pakistan-shows-jf-17-block-iii-fitted-with-pl-15-missiles-for-first-time

 

There’s a lot here that we don’t know, too. Especially the questions of who was flying, what they’d been told to do, and how they were doing it. 
 

The Pak military and the Pak AF in particular has long been a frankly better trained and capable force. A lot of that has to do with decades of training and doctrine that we helped them with while the Indians relied on the Soviets. But even going back to the Raj, the British believed Punjabi Muslims made better, more trustworthy soldiers and then trained them to be.  You still hear about “martial races/castes” on the subcontinent with zero trace of irony. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SquishMitten said:

What are you military folk calling pigs these days? Haven’t heard that in a while

In this case I mean literal pigs.

The M-60 was called The pig because it's rate of fire.

Also it's heavy AF.

The A-10 Thunderbolt is affectionately called Warthog.

Edited by MissingInAction
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Posted
On 5/8/2025 at 3:23 PM, Dennis Taylor said:

I always thought their dance battles deserved a thread, i was disappointed to see it's about a brewing war . Hopefully they can settle their differences without violence 

 

 

ha gay GIF

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