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Ex Cop and son kill unarmed black man jogging

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2 hours ago, PW119 said:


I don’t think it was a dash cam. The camera isn’t anchored - the driver is holding the camera.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And magically the critical part of the early confrontation goes 'off frame' for some reason....See in the news the grand jury will look at the case. But it's a Georgia GJ....

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6 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

Yeah, thats where I'm at although I havent seen any of the video yet with broken links.  Anyone that suggests otherwise has never really felt a real fight or flight situation. It all happens instantaneously. You only get to second guess bad decisions later if you're lucky. 

I'd be willing to bet that the guy had earbuds in and was listening to music, like damn near everyone that goes on a solo run. Imagine the level of shock/confusion when a truckload of assholes pull around and stop in front of you with long guns, and you've been completely oblivious to their stalking as you've been mostly 100% focused on a fucking afternoon run.

These two cowboys can get fucked.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Get out of here with the utter bullshit. The mental gymnastics that you do to justify your shit is delusionally impressive.

Below is verbatim from the first DA's letter on Feb 23rd. He seemed to have enough evidence to think it was all perfectly legal. He didn't seem to need to wait for evidence. Notice the last sentence where the piece of shit DA blames the victim. It's May 6 and still no charges. The only reason this is being discussed is because of the news focus. If there had been no video evidence, this would have been just another example racist pieces of shits killing a black man because he was black and getting away with it and you would have no problems with it.

 

 

Second As to the case at hand: Itismy professional belief the autopsy confirms what wehad already viewed as shown in the video tape, with the photographs & from the witness statements taken immediately atthe scene. The autopsy supports the initial opinion we gave you on February 24th, 2020 atthe briefing room in the Glynn County Police Department after reviewing the evidence you had at that time. Wedo not see grounds for an arrest of any of the three parties.

Third

It appears Travis McMichael,Greg McMichael, and Bryan William were following, in pursuit burglary suspect, with solid firsthand probable cause, in theirneighborhood, and asking/ tellinghim to stop. Itappearstheir intentwas to stop and hold this criminal suspectuntil law enforcement arrived. UnderGeorgia Law this is perfectly legal, OCGA 17 -4 -60 A private personmay arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge . If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arresthim upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion .‚ÄĚ

Fourth

It clearly appears Travis McMichael and Greg McMichaelhad firearmsbeing carried in an open fashion . The investigation showsneither of them to be convicted felons or under felony supervision , they were in a motor vehicle owned by Travis McMichael. UnderGeorgia Law this is legalopen carry .

OCGA 16- 11- 126 ) Any person whoisnotprohibitedby law from possessinga handgun orlonggun may have or carry on his or her person a weapon orlong gun on his orherproperty or insidehis orher home, motorvehicle, orplaceof business withouta valid weaponscarry license. (b ) Any personwho isnotprohibited by law from possessinga handgun or longgun may haveor carry on his or her person a long gun withouta valid weaponscarry license, provided thatifthe long gun is loaded, it shall only be carried in an open and fully exposedmanner.‚ÄĚ 2 of 3

Fifth

The video made by William Bryan clearly shows the shooting in realtime. From said video it appears Ahmaud Arbery was running along the right side of the McMichael truck then abruptly turns 90 degrees to the left and attacks Travis McMichaelwho was standing at the front left corner ofthetruck . A brief skirmish ensues in which it appear Arbery strikes McMichael and appears to grab the shotgun andpull it from McMichael The shot is through Arbery s right hand palm which is consistent with him grabbing and pulling the shotgun at the barrel tip , the 2nd and 3rd wounds are consistentwith the struggle for the shotgun as depicted in the video , the angle of the 2nd shot with the rear of the buttstock being pushed away and down from the fight arealso consistent with the upward angle ofblood plume shown in the video and that McMichael was attempting to push the gun away from Arbery while Arbery was pulling it toward himself. The 3rd shot too appears to be in a struggle over the gun. The angle of the shots and the video show this was from the beginning or almost immediately became-- a fight over the shotgun . Given the fact Arbery initiated the fight, at the point Arbery grabbed the shotgun, under Georgia Law , McMichael was allowed to use deadly force to protect himself. Just as importantly, while weknow McMichael had his finger on the trigger, we do notknow who caused the firings. Arbery would only had to pull the shotgun approximately 1/ 16th to 1/ 8th of one inch to fire weapon himself and in the height of an altercation this is entirely possible. Arbery s mental health records & prior convictions help explain his apparent aggressive nature and his possible thought pattern to attack an armed man .

What's funny is, because Cletus had no knowledge of Arbery's priors and/or mental health problems, those factors in no way improve the probable cause analysis.

That DA should be ashamed.  Both of that letter generally and of his abuse of the English language.

Also note the DA's effort to shield that from FOIA requests.  Whoops.

Is it any wonder our criminal justice system is so fucked up?

Edited by TwiceHorn
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10 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yeah, imagine that.  Waiting to see what evidence is available for judging someone as a murderous racist.  Fucking terrible practice.  Can’t virtue signal as early on.  

You say this, but then you get absolutely butt-raped with this inconvenient fact (which is almost always the case in this sort of incident):

10 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

Well, there is also the flip side of that. Waiting until the evidence comes up to repeat the word "clearly" and use half-wit reasoning to say this was justifiable.  I mean, we have it in writing on an official letterhead.  Is that some sort of reverse virtue signaling?

The local authorities poisoning the record and doing all they can to villify the victim.  Cool, cool.

8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What's funny is, because Cletus had no knowledge of Arbery's priors and/or mental health problems, those factors in no way improve the probable cause analysis.

That DA should be ashamed.  Both of that letter generally and of his abuse of the English language.

Also note the DA's effort to shield that from FOIA requests.  Whoops.

Is it any wonder our criminal justice system is so fucked up?

And all of this.

There is one way to handle an incident like this.  Hand it off to an unbiased third party prosecutor (someone who has never had any relationship with the shooters), and let him handle it.  And HIS handling should be to take the matter to a grand jury, with no public comments on charges etc. until they have spoken.

But.....come on....we all knew that wasn't gonna happen the second this story broke.  

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1 hour ago, otisdog said:

 But it's a Georgia GJ....

That Grand Jury has been picked to be stacked in one direction 

 

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

There is one way to handle an incident like this.  Hand it off to an unbiased third party prosecutor (someone who has never had any relationship with the shooters), and let him handle it.  And HIS handling should be to take the matter to a grand jury, with no public comments on charges etc. until they have spoken.

The prosecutor who just removed himself was already a special prosecutor. The local prosecutor recused immediately because McMichael was an investigator for their jurisdiction.

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

Third

It appears Travis McMichael,Greg McMichael, and Bryan William were following, in pursuit burglary suspect, with solid firsthand probable cause, in theirneighborhood, and asking/ tellinghim to stop. Itappearstheir intentwas to stop and hold this criminal suspectuntil law enforcement arrived. UnderGeorgia Law this is perfectly legal, OCGA 17 -4 -60 A private personmay arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge . If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arresthim upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion .‚ÄĚ

I agree with most of your post.  This is the only part I question.  Mostly because I have no idea what steps are actually lawful for a GA citizens arrest.  That said, I also can't really point to anything I would think is unlawful.

The one point I'd drill home if I were prosecuting is when and why was the safety switch on the shotgun was toggled.

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former police officer and district attorney’s investigator <<<<< he’s walking free. We all know they take care of their own 

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11 hours ago, TexasEd said:

Ambush Murder.

He tries to avoid them by running around the truck away from the driver but is shot at from point blank range as he goes around the right side.  Cletus Jr pursued him as he tried to avoid him and closed range and fired at point blank.  At that point what do you do?  There is no escape because the range is closed so you turn your back and get shot in the back or wrestle the shotgun and keep the muzzle pointed away from you which he successfully did on the second shot. 

Only problem with that is Pops had a clear shot from behind while he was trying to not get shot from the front.

Ambush.

Point of order:

Point blank is the range at which the sights line up with the trajectory of the bullet, not an inordinately close distance.

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11 minutes ago, JBJ said:

The prosecutor who just removed himself was already a special prosecutor. The local prosecutor recused immediately because McMichael was an investigator for their jurisdiction.

I agree with most of your post.  This is the only part I question.  Mostly because I have no idea what steps are actually lawful for a GA citizens arrest.  That said, I also can't really point to anything I would think is unlawful.

The one point I'd drill home if I were prosecuting is when and why was the safety switch on the shotgun was toggled.

 

OCGA 17 -4 -60 A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge .

Here's the issue. These two redneck dipshits did not witness a crime or had knowledge of a crime being committed by the jogger. 

Redneck had his gun stolen from his car a month or so earlier. Then something about a black guy going into a home under construction. Black man running in the neighborhood. Let's make a citizen's arrest based on nothing but he's black. 

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1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

That Grand Jury has been picked to be stacked in one direction 

 

Well, generally to deliver indictments.  Secondarily to indict colored and po folks, but that's not really intentional so much as a reliable by-product.

So this one is going to put them to the test:  deliver indictment of white folks?

Anyone have any idea how "progressive" a non-Atlanta, non-Athens Georgia grand jury or petit jury may be?  On the one hand, it's the deep south, on the other, it's not Alabama.

Dallas County has shown that it has the capacity to do the right thing.  Not sure about Georgia.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

 

OCGA 17 -4 -60 A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge .

Here's the issue. These two redneck dipshits did not witness a crime or had knowledge of a crime being committed by the jogger. 

Redneck had his gun stolen from his car a month or so earlier. Then something about a black guy going into a home under construction. Black man running in the neighborhood. Let's make a citizen's arrest based on nothing but he's black. 

As posted upthread, that statute goes on to permit citizens arrest on a felony on probable cause, without personal knowledge, if the perp is fleeing or escaping.  Bad idea jeans.

First off, there's about zero evidence that crime is so rampant that we must supplement the efforts of licensed peace officers with those of citizens.  Second, even if there were such evidence, letting citizens arrest on probable cause is just a bridge way too far.  It puts everyone in danger for little or no gain.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As posted upthread, that statute goes on to permit citizens arrest on a felony on probable cause, without personal knowledge, if the perp is fleeing or escaping.  Bad idea jeans.

First off, there's about zero evidence that crime is so rampant that we must supplement the efforts of licensed peace officers with those of citizens.  Second, even if there were such evidence, letting citizens arrest on probable cause is just a bridge way too far.  It puts everyone in danger for little or no gain.

In the interest of upholding the law and due process, they should've arrested the rednecks and let the judicial system run its course. This would at least let the judicial system consider what that probably cause was. The victim is owed due process as much as the racist rednecks. To watch that painful video and come away that the rednecks did nothing wrong or to not even consider arresting and letting the justice system have a say is criminal.

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5 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

In the interest of upholding the law and due process, they should've arrested the rednecks and let the judicial system run its course. This would at least let the judicial system consider what that probably cause was. The victim is owed due process as much as the racist rednecks. To watch that painful video and come away that the rednecks did nothing wrong or to not even consider arresting and letting the justice system have a say is criminal.

Dude.  White guys connected to law enforcement shot a black dude.  That is per se "they get all benefit of the doubt, and will face no consequences unless public pressure forces it."

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6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

In the interest of upholding the law and due process, they should've arrested the rednecks and let the judicial system run its course. This would at least let the judicial system consider what that probably cause was. The victim is owed due process as much as the racist rednecks. To watch that painful video and come away that the rednecks did nothing wrong or to not even consider arresting and letting the justice system have a say is criminal.

Well, the grand jury will get its say on that, so all is not lost.  But agreed, they  should have been arrested.

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20 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Quoting the above for the below. 

Sounds like these guys are going to prosecuted.  Yes they should’ve stayed home, but they should get theirs.  I believe he’d be alive if a cooler head had prevailed. The WORST action was to fight for your life. You must realize when you’ve brought only running shoes to a racist gun fight. 

yeah, what was he thinking? fighting for his life and all!  <eye roll>

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The lawyer responsible for the administration of justice in the county watched that tape and concluded that, not only was there no crime committed, there are no reasonable grounds whatsoever for even bringing a charge. 

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51 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As posted upthread, that statute goes on to permit citizens arrest on a felony on probable cause, without personal knowledge, if the perp is fleeing or escaping.  Bad idea jeans.

I was thinking more alongs the lines of whether immediacy matters or not.  

As far as I can make out and despite another neighbor calling police about Arbery at that time, the McMichaels were following him because of a burglary from a few weeks back caught on camera.  That's personal knowledge to begin with anyway, not probable cause.

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1 minute ago, JBJ said:

I was thinking more alongs the lines of whether immediacy matters or not.  

As far as I can make out and despite another neighbor calling police about Arbery at that time, the McMichaels were following him because of a burglary from a few weeks back caught on camera.  That's personal knowledge to begin with anyway, not probable cause.

No, immediacy doesn't dispense with or reduce the need for probable cause to make an arrest.

And, personal knowledge means you perceived it live and in-person, i.e. you witnessed it.  Video may be close, but it's not the same.

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20 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

That shooter is going to jail for a long time.  Assuming those were three shots I heard.  The first one was right when the guy swerved around the truck.  That is not justifiable.

It's cute that you believe this.

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4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

No, immediacy doesn't dispense with or reduce the need for probable cause to make an arrest.

And, personal knowledge means you perceived it live and in-person, i.e. you witnessed it.  Video may be close, but it's not the same.

The question I'm asking is if immediacy is required to make a citizen's arrest.  Let's say you come into my house, kick my dog, and run away.  I see you in the park 2 weeks later.  Am I still allowed to citizen's arrest you in the park 2 weeks later?  I assume so, but I can see how this would also be a problem.

Trying to wrap my head around this. Mall security guard sees a robbery on CCTV, chases down the criminal and makes a citizen's arrest in the parking lot.  That's illegal?

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14 minutes ago, JBJ said:

The question I'm asking is if immediacy is required to make a citizen's arrest.  Let's say you come into my house, kick my dog, and run away.  I see you in the park 2 weeks later.  Am I still allowed to citizen's arrest you in the park 2 weeks later?  I assume so, but I can see how this would also be a problem.

Trying to wrap my head around this. Mall security guard sees a robbery on CCTV, chases down the criminal and makes a citizen's arrest in the parking lot.  That's illegal?

it's purely academic, but what evidence do we have of these slackjaws witnessing this particular black man commit a crime?

oh, they said so:

Quote

According to a Glynn County Police report, Gregory McMichael later told officers that he thought Arbery looked like a person suspected in a series of recent break-ins in the area.

which is really just code for "we heard there were black people committing crime in the area, look there's a black man, he must be our guy!"

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, JBJ said:

The question I'm asking is if immediacy is required to make a citizen's arrest.  Let's say you come into my house, kick my dog, and run away.  I see you in the park 2 weeks later.  Am I still allowed to citizen's arrest you in the park 2 weeks later?  I assume so, but I can see how this would also be a problem.

Trying to wrap my head around this. Mall security guard sees a robbery on CCTV, chases down the criminal and makes a citizen's arrest in the parking lot.  That's illegal?

It depends.  Is your name Kerpal?  And did the dog need an operation?

Edited by Felix
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20 minutes ago, JBJ said:

The question I'm asking is if immediacy is required to make a citizen's arrest.  Let's say you come into my house, kick my dog, and run away.  I see you in the park 2 weeks later.  Am I still allowed to citizen's arrest you in the park 2 weeks later?  I assume so, but I can see how this would also be a problem.

Trying to wrap my head around this. Mall security guard sees a robbery on CCTV, chases down the criminal and makes a citizen's arrest in the parking lot.  That's illegal?

I don't think anybody would have an issue with the mall cop seeing the robbery remotely.  Then he can tell by video which exit the robber took.  So he peels out and doubles back around to greet the thief outside JC Penney instead of the Macy's where the theft took place.  And as that guy runs out, instead of arresting him for stealing a discman, he just lays in wait behind a parking lot island of trees and then just opens fire with his partner on the thief.  I think that may be a hint excessive.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, JBJ said:

The question I'm asking is if immediacy is required to make a citizen's arrest.  Let's say you come into my house, kick my dog, and run away.  I see you in the park 2 weeks later.  Am I still allowed to citizen's arrest you in the park 2 weeks later?  I assume so, but I can see how this would also be a problem.

Trying to wrap my head around this. Mall security guard sees a robbery on CCTV, chases down the criminal and makes a citizen's arrest in the parking lot.  That's illegal?

Oh, well no, probably not on citizens arrest (immediacy).

If they aren't a licensed peace officer in Texas, that is correct, unless video has been interpreted to be "in his presence or within his view," which is a little bit different standard than personal knowledge, but similar.

If security guards generally are not licensed peace officers in a state, that might offer some justification for permitting citizens arrest on probable cause.  But I might think a more narrowly tailored grant of power to security guards is a better idea if giving them arrest authority at all is a good idea.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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28 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Let's say you come into my house, kick my dog, and run away.  I see you in the park 2 weeks later.  Am I still allowed to citizen's arrest you in the park 2 weeks later? 

I think a shoulder check is legal at the very least.

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37 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

It's cute that you believe this.

I will bet he does.  We will see. 

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It's amazing to me people can see the exact same video and see completely different things.

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6 minutes ago, Pokoloco said:

It's amazing to me people can see the exact same video and see completely different things.

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9 minutes ago, Pokoloco said:

It's amazing to me people can see the exact same video and see completely different things.

It's not what people see, it's what people don't see that upsets them.  

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37 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

if you see this in any other way but murder...you are part of the problem.

and a huge piece of shit

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51 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I will bet he does.  We will see. 

I hope you're right.  I have very little confidence in the justice system on this subject.

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2 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I'm obviously missing something here...

People see what they want to see.  Sometimes video proves something, but people don't care.  etc. etc.

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15 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

That's a bad shoot and tragedy.

Your eloquence is only transcended by your essence.  I think we all agree, we'd like you to deliver the eulogy.  

"A bad shoot, my brothers and sisters"  I mean, truly spiritual.  I love that you're on our planet.  

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Who the fuck do these yahoos think they are? I don't care if someone did steal something, it's no excuse for being shot down in the middle of the street by a couple of vigilantes. What kind of country allows this happen without punishment?  Not one I care to live in. 

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4 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

People see what they want to see.  Sometimes video proves something, but people don't care.  etc. etc.

Right, I got that. I just don't understand the reference with the screenshot, maybe I forgot something that happened?

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4 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Where are the protests for his constitutional rights ???

Was he trying to eat at Applebee's?  No?  Then your question makes no sense.

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26 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Where are the protests for his constitutional rights ???

I'd protest this one if these guys get off.  And I would Tamir Rice.
I would not for Michael Brown.  Hands up, don't shoot was a fraud.

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10 hours ago, gmr548 said:


Imagine being this stupid

The thing is, Johnny isn't that stupid. He's that evil.

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13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The thing is, Johnny isn't that stupid. He's that evil.

I would contend he's neither stupid, nor evil.  He's just a product of his upbringing.  

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1 hour ago, Woodrow Call said:

Who the fuck do these yahoos think they are? I don't care if someone did steal something, it's no excuse for being shot down in the middle of the street by a couple of vigilantes. What kind of country allows this happen without punishment?  Not one I care to live in. 

The older one is a retired investigator for the local prosecutor.    

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41 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The thing is, Johnny isn't that stupid. He's that evil.

Yes.  Yes I am.

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37 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I would contend he's neither stupid, nor evil.  He's just a product of his upbringing.  

Ahh, the age-old debate....I presume that you will engage in a wager for the customary amount?

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