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Black Monday NFL 2022 thread


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If you can’t see there is a problem in NFL hiring, then you clearly are part of the problem. This whole hiring cycle is a continuation of a long standing cluster and for whatever he reason he feels like he needs to take a stand. His lawsuit doesn’t have to be iron clad, it just has to pull back the curtain a little further than it is and show the Rooney rule enforcement for the hypocrisy it is. He may not get a dime (he will, but just for arguments sake let’s assume he doesn’t), but you can guarantee there will be revisions made to the hiring process and the Rooney rule. Hopefully, meaningful change comes out of it as he and several others should have jobs over McCarthy and various others right now. 

You are making a lot of assumptions here, all of which are assuming Flores is 100% truthful. He is demanding quotas in his lawsuit. To state he is more qualified than McCarthy is ludicrous, I have my issues with mM but Flores certainly doesn’t have anywhere close to his resume. I wouldn’t want him in Dallas prior to this because I think he’s a moron that doesn’t really understand that succes requires total alignment between ownership, the GM, scouting, and the coach. He has a reputation as an unrepentant asshole.lots of black coaches like Raheem Morris, Bienemy, Frazier, Leftwich, Bowles, and others are better candidates.
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9 hours ago, Brew said:

I would say that if his issues with Miami ownership are accurate, then he probably believed Ross was going to poison the well amongst other owners which would keep him from getting another head coaching job any time soon.

Ross is a supposedly a joke in the league and no one would trust his opinion on football matters.   

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1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

Welp if that’s true Flores’s case is a little weaker. Look is there something shitty about their being 1 nfl coach in a league with 70% black players.  But even in the real world, a company may already have a candidate in mind but is doing diligence by interviewing others.  We did the same thing with Barnett and Mack

Now add in further context that at least 30% of the league's coaches and coordinators are related to other NFL brethren either by blood or by marriage then the notion that it's a pure meritocracy falls flat on its face. 

Edited by Catdaddyhorn
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I'm gonna keep saying this because it bears repeating: the Texans had Flores on their short list against Josh F'n McCown, a former journeyman QB who has never coached at any position at the NFL or college level. One the one hand you have a black candidate with a long resume of coaching experience in the NFL and his Dolphins teams outperformed expectations, and on the other you have a white guy super Christian whose coaching experience ends at WR coach for Rusk High in Jacksonville TX. Not only that, but he interviewed against two white candidates and he's the only one with head coaching experience. He knew he had no shot of getting that job. 

KInda proves his point. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

I'm gonna keep saying this because it bears repeating: the Texans had Flores on their short list against Josh F'n McCown, a former journeyman QB who has never coached at any position at the NFL or college level. One the one hand you have a black candidate with a long resume of coaching experience in the NFL and his Dolphins teams outperformed expectations, and on the other you have a white guy super Christian whose coaching experience ends at WR coach for Rusk High in Jacksonville TX. Not only that, but he interviewed against two white candidates and he's the only one with head coaching experience. He knew he had no shot of getting that job. 

KInda proves his point. 

 

The Texans hired a completely inept black coach last year, so they’re just terrible at hiring in general. 

Flores better have proof that the Giants had already started the hiring process or he blew up his career for nothing. 

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5 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

The Texans hired a completely inept black coach last year, so they’re just terrible at hiring in general. 

Yeah, and when they did it everyone knew it was likely tokenism and he was certainly a temporary place-holder. The fact they interviewed McCown last year as well suggested as much, but they were too chickenshit to actually hire him because of how it would look and were trying to sell McCown to other teams as an interviewee prospect to make them look less foolish.

And then they fire Culley after a year, which rarely happens to white coaches who tend to get a longer leash, and are going to replace him with a white coach with no head coaching experience.

 

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12 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

The Texans hired a completely inept black coach last year, so they’re just terrible at hiring in general. 

Flores better have proof that the Giants had already started the hiring process or he blew up his career for nothing. 

I hope Brian recorded the conversation because if it's he said/he said it'll be hard to take his side as the accuser.  Also, if it did happen, did he take the money?  

 

Sounds like Brian knows the risks for his career and cares more about the cause.  Now back to John Elway showing up with stained khakis, a Starbucks venti mocholatte and dark sunglasses on to the meeting.

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11 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

The Texans hired a completely inept black coach last year, so they’re just terrible at hiring in general. 

Flores better have proof that the Giants had already started the hiring process or he blew up his career for nothing. 

Does the Rooney rule require multiple people of color be interviewed?  If not, the Giants were already clear to hire someone.

https://www.giants.com/news/bills-leslie-frazier-has-2nd-head-coach-interview-with-giants

There is likely a lot of merit in Flores' claims, but probably not a lot proof to win a lawsuit.  NFL coaching ranks is rife with nepotism and needs to be changed, but nepotism isn't illegal.  

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15 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

The Texans hired a completely inept black coach last year, so they’re just terrible at hiring in general. 

Flores better have proof that the Giants had already started the hiring process or he blew up his career for nothing. 

Even if he has proof that they had started the process what does that prove?  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.  

If the Broncos do provide the minutes that the meeting started on time and lasted 3.5 hours and that they flew 5 executives to Rhode Island, combined with Flores public  statements on the interview - that pretty much blows his entire suit out of the water.

The only interesting part left is whether he takes Ross down with him if he can prove the tanking or tampering charges.

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5 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Even if he has proof that they had started the process what does that prove?  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.  

If the Broncos do provide the minutes that the meeting started on time and lasted 3.5 hours and that they flew 5 executives to Rhode Island, combined with Flores public  statements on the interview - that pretty much blows his entire suit out of the water.

The only interesting part left is whether he takes Ross down with him if he can prove the tanking or tampering charges.

Edit:  I didn't realize the first interview with Frazier wasn't in person, so that could matter with the timeline.

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5 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Does the Rooney rule require multiple people of color be interviewed?  If not, the Giants were already clear to hire someone.

https://www.giants.com/news/bills-leslie-frazier-has-2nd-head-coach-interview-with-giants

There is likely a lot of merit in Flores' claims, but probably not a lot proof to win a lawsuit.  NFL coaching ranks is rife with nepotism and needs to be changed, but nepotism isn't illegal.  

From what I understand they have to have an in-person interview with a minority candidate. Although that’s a bit of an odd requirement in the age of Covid. 

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18 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Does the Rooney rule require multiple people of color be interviewed?  If not, the Giants were already clear to hire someone.

https://www.giants.com/news/bills-leslie-frazier-has-2nd-head-coach-interview-with-giants

There is likely a lot of merit in Flores' claims, but probably not a lot proof to win a lawsuit.  NFL coaching ranks is rife with nepotism and needs to be changed, but nepotism isn't illegal.  

In May 2020, the league changed the Rooney Rule to require teams to interview at least two external minority candidates for a head coaching job and at least one external minority candidate for a coordinator job.

 

It seems a lot of the black coaches are wasting time with these interviews. Its mainly to check a box. 

Edited by Loch Ness Monster
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6 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

From what I understand they have to have an in-person interview with a minority candidate. Although that’s a bit of an odd requirement in the age of Covid. 

Correct

Jan. 11 (Tue) – Giants fire Joe Judge as head coach
Jan. 21 (Fri) – Bills assistant GM Joe Schoen hired as GM
Jan. 21 (Fri) – Bills OC Brian Daboll interviews with Schoen and Giants’ co-owners via teleconference
Jan. 22 (Sat) – Bills DC Leslie Frazier interviews via teleconference
Jan. 23 (Sun) – Bengals DC Lou Anarumo interviews via teleconference
Jan. 23 (Sun) – Daboll and Frazier’s Buffalo Bills eliminated from playoffs
Jan. 24 (Mon) – Cowboys DC Dan Quinn interviews in-person. Giants’ first in-person interview for the job.
Jan. 25 (Tue) – Brian Daboll receives second interview. Interview occurs in-person

*Brian Flores receives text messages from Bill Belichick congratulating him on becoming next Giants coach even though Flores has not had his interview yet. Belichick’s text messages were intended for Daboll.*

Jan. 26 (Wed) – Giants DC Patrick Graham interviews. Does not satisfy Rooney Rule since in-house candidate
Jan. 26 (Wed) – Ex-Dolphins HC Brian Flores has dinner with Schoen
Jan. 27 (Thu) – Brian Flores interviews (satisfies Rooney Rule because it is in-person with someone outside organization)
Jan. 27 (Thu) – Dan Quinn announces he is remaining as Cowboys DC
Jan. 28 (Fri) – Leslie Frazier gets second interview, this time in-person, also satisfying Rooney Rule
Jan. 28 (Fri) – Daboll hired as head coach

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11 hours ago, Brew said:

If you can’t see there is a problem in NFL hiring, then you clearly are part of the problem. This whole hiring cycle is a continuation of a long standing cluster and for whatever he reason he feels like he needs to take a stand. His lawsuit doesn’t have to be iron clad, it just has to pull back the curtain a little further than it is and show the Rooney rule enforcement for the hypocrisy it is. He may not get a dime (he will, but just for arguments sake let’s assume he doesn’t), but you can guarantee there will be revisions made to the hiring process and the Rooney rule. Hopefully, meaningful change comes out of it as he and several others should have jobs over McCarthy and various others right now. 

If you were NFL Commissioner for a day, what revisions to the hiring process and Rooney rule would you propose?

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34 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Even if he has proof that they had started the process what does that prove?  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.  

If the Broncos do provide the minutes that the meeting started on time and lasted 3.5 hours and that they flew 5 executives to Rhode Island, combined with Flores public  statements on the interview - that pretty much blows his entire suit out of the water.

The only interesting part left is whether he takes Ross down with him if he can prove the tanking or tampering charges.

I can’t really fault the Giants for having a candidate in mind when they fired Judge, that’s generally how they should operate. It’s hard to imagine they are stupid enough to actually hire Daboll before their obligation to the Rooney Rule, but I’ve been surprised before. 

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He was still interviewing for jobs. Strange timing. 
But is he really though? Or are they just more 'we need to interview a black guy' interviews? Like supposedly what happened with the Giants? Or what the Texans did to Hines Ward. Remember when Sherm Lewis got an interview with the Cowboys?

I was never a big fan if the Rooney Rule because of the fraud that it puts in the hiring process. I understand the intent but it was almost an impossible goal. A prejudiced/racist owner isn't going to suddenly see the light because you forced them to interview a minority. They are going to go through the motions and move on. And that can be more disrespectful to the applicant than not even getting the interview. How long has the rule been around? How many interviews have been done? And look at the results.

Hopefully as more minorities get in coordinator positions (especially on the offensive side) that will open things up. Plus, they will have opportunities for their kids to work the system. Other than that that, unless the players start making some real noise(and be willing to make financial sacrifices) I'm not sure how to solve the issue.

Also, not every hiring decision is based on race, like the Eric Bienemy saga. So that adds another layer to the onion. You don't need something stupid like a quota. But most of us know damn well there is more than one black coach out there who is capable of running a team just like the majority of his white counterparts.
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I can’t comment on the ins and outs of Flores complaint, but as someone who is following the Saints Head a coaching search, it’s clear they are going to hire Dennis Allen, and everyone knows it.  They have met with Brian Flores, and will meet with Aaron Glenn today, but that’s all a formality. 
 

The Rooney rule is obviously just window dressing.  That’s not a comment with judgement.  It’s just a fact.

More broadly, the NFL will literally do anything to avoid opening their books, so if push comes to shove, they will back a brinks truck up to Flores house.

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43 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

There is likely a lot of merit in Flores' claims, but probably not a lot proof to win a lawsuit. 

Yeah, I think this is a good summary of the situation. Disappointing situation because I thought Flores was doing a good job in Miami and seemed to be building something. I didn’t know he was at odds with the owner/front office. Hopefully something positive comes out of the suit for him and for the league. 

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4 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

 But most of us know damn well there is more than one black coach out there who is capable of running a team just like the majority of his white counterparts.

There are five openings and a number of minority candidates in the mix.  Leftwich, Frazier, Joseph, Bowles, Morris, Caldwell, Aaron Glenn, Mike McDaniel.

Can't see Flores getting any of the jobs, though.  

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The rooney rule and race stuff is bad, but i think the alleged fixing of games is the real problem here. If there's any sort of proof there then that needs to be investigated criminally. You cannot have people involved in legalized gambling endeavors manipulating outcomes.

Edited by Pam Cummings
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18 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Flores was never a coordinator, was hired as a HC at 37 and was likely to have a long career in the NFL almost assuredly being a HC again.

This sure seems like an overreaction to the Giants just preferring Daboll.

I think this is the bigger part of it. The "pretend" to interview black candidates when they have no intent on actually hiring one of them:

According to Flores’ lawsuit, New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick told Flores three days before his interview with the New York Giants that Brian Daboll had already been selected for the job. Belichick apologized to Flores in a subsequent email. “Sorry — I f—– this up. I double checked and misread the text. I think they are naming Brian Daboll. I’m sorry about that. BB.”

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9 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

I think this is the bigger part of it. The "pretend" to interview black candidates when they have no intent on actually hiring one of them:

According to Flores’ lawsuit, New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick told Flores three days before his interview with the New York Giants that Brian Daboll had already been selected for the job. Belichick apologized to Flores in a subsequent email. “Sorry — I f—– this up. I double checked and misread the text. I think they are naming Brian Daboll. I’m sorry about that. BB.”

Agree.  I imagine it was pretty infuriating to sit through those interviews and believe they aren't really considering you.

Anyone who has interviewed multiple candidates for a position oftentimes is impressed by a candidate to the point you know they are the likely hire.  Sometimes there other scheduled interviews that are a bit of a formality unless the candidate just blows you away.

There also is the fact that Daboll was interviewing with multiple teams and if he's the guy you want, you need to lock him down.  That may start the unofficial wheels to begin turning before the process is complete.

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7 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

The rooney rule and race stuff is bad, but i think the alleged fixing of games is the real problem here. If there's any sort of proof there then that needs to be investigated criminally. You cannot have people involved in legalized gambling endeavors manipulating outcomes.

The racism angle will get the media attention, but I agree the game fixing is the more immediate problem.

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There are five openings and a number of minority candidates in the mix.  Leftwich, Frazier, Joseph, Bowles, Morris, Caldwell, Aaron Glenn, Mike McDaniel.
Can't see Flores getting any of the jobs, though.  
Fair point.

But I think it's like that most years. And when it's all over we get more of the same. It's tough to figure out which opportunities are legit and which are bullshit.

And I highly doubt Caldwell gets a job. Even though he should. Taking the Lions to the playoffs should be worth something.
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2 hours ago, Texzilla58 said:


You are making a lot of assumptions here, all of which are assuming Flores is 100% truthful. He is demanding quotas in his lawsuit. To state he is more qualified than McCarthy is ludicrous, I have my issues with mM but Flores certainly doesn’t have anywhere close to his resume. I wouldn’t want him in Dallas prior to this because I think he’s a moron that doesn’t really understand that succes requires total alignment between ownership, the GM, scouting, and the coach. He has a reputation as an unrepentant asshole.lots of black coaches like Raheem Morris, Bienemy, Frazier, Leftwich, Bowles, and others are better candidates.

You can not hire Flores and still not be racist.  Talented coach but seems like he doesn't get along with people and he's willing to sue you if things don't go his way.  Looking at you Elway, you horsefaced drunk. 

 

Daboll was always going to go wherever the buffalo GM was going.  I thought Daboll was going to get a job last year.

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1 minute ago, Brothahorn said:

Fair point.

But I think it's like that most years. And when it's all over we get more of the same. It's tough to figure out which opportunities are legit and which are bullshit.

And I highly doubt Caldwell gets a job. Even though he should. Taking the Lions to the playoffs should be worth something.

As is winning the super bowl with Nick Foles or taking Kaep to the super bowl.  But no guarantee either of those guys will be hired.

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Flores will argue that the NFL has a monopoly on pro football in America (true) and there is collusion amongst the owners to not hire minorities (seemingly true).  If he can argue that second point then it's a massive problem for the NFL.  

Kliff Kingsbury is an NFL head coach for fuck's sake.

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Even without racist intent the nepotism at the lower levels of NFL organizations basically homogenizes the talent pool for future assistants, coordinators, and ultimately HCs.  These candidates appear more qualified because the have more experience.    
And yet in spite of the black coaches that have been hired since the Rooney rule was implemented, we don't see that same nepotism flowing from their family trees. Weird!
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2 minutes ago, Gourmand said:
12 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:
Even without racist intent the nepotism at the lower levels of NFL organizations basically homogenizes the talent pool for future assistants, coordinators, and ultimately HCs.  These candidates appear more qualified because the have more experience.    

And yet in spite of the black coaches that have been hired since the Rooney rule was implemented, we don't see that same nepotism flowing from their family trees. Weird!

Mike Tomlin is the only sustained black coach in the NFL.  Hard to fill up the lower levels with friends/family when you are fired.

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1 minute ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Mike Tomlin is the only sustained black coach in the NFL.  Hard to fill up the lower levels with friends/family when you are fired.

Marvin Lewis coached for 16 years. If he were white, Marcus Lewis would probably be an OC or head coach by now but he's coaching at Hampton University.

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1 hour ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Yeah, I think this is a good summary of the situation. Disappointing situation because I thought Flores was doing a good job in Miami and seemed to be building something. I didn’t know he was at odds with the owner/front office. Hopefully something positive comes out of the suit for him and for the league. 

A lot of the beef was allegedly over tua which doesn’t make sense if Bryan didn’t want Watson.  Or maybe he did want Watson but didn’t want to tamper.   Alotnof what I had read or head was Greer and Ross wanted him to make tua work but Brian was salty because he wanted Herbert or to trade up for burrow.  But I’ve read, like a lot of bellichek guys he’s hard to get along with.

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As is winning the super bowl with Nick Foles or taking Kaep to the super bowl.  But no guarantee either of those guys will be hired.
I would argue that Harbough is guaranteed a job, IF he wants one.

And Pederson probably will get another opportunity at some point, too. A legitimate opportunity. And that's the issue, IMO. No one is going to interview to him satisfy a rule.

Even if an owner only interviews one black candidate, as long as they are sincere(hard to judge, I know), that's better than 10 fake interviews.
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13 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

He'll get a huge payout from this and force the league to hire more minorities.  He has ironclad evidence that the policy the league itself implemented is being ignored and was just for show.  

He's got to show damages, right?  How can he have damages when he was still interviewing with other teams?

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2 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

I would argue that Harbough is guaranteed a job, IF he wants one.

And Pederson probably will get another opportunity at some point, too. A legitimate opportunity. And that's the issue, IMO. No one is going to interview to him satisfy a rule.

Even if an owner only interviews one black candidate, as long as they are sincere(hard to judge, I know), that's better than 10 fake interviews.

 

5 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Marvin Lewis coached for 16 years. If he were white, Marcus Lewis would probably be an OC or head coach by now but he's coaching at Hampton University.

Possibly, but a lot of critics said Marvin should've been fired after posting 2 4 win seasons in three years, and he kept his job.  

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Just now, closetohumping said:

Possibly, but a lot of critics said Marvin should've been fired after posting 2 4 win seasons in three years, and he kept his job.  

Absolutely, but the nepotism angle is an excellent illustration of how deeply entrenched the racial discrimination is in the NFL coaching ranks when we see so many surnames recycled year after year. Does Tomlin have a kid in the coaching ranks? And what about Tony Dungy? 

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5 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Absolutely, but the nepotism angle is an excellent illustration of how deeply entrenched the racial discrimination is in the NFL coaching ranks when we see so many surnames recycled year after year. Does Tomlin have a kid in the coaching ranks? And what about Tony Dungy? 

I think Kyle definitely had a leg up because of his name but he's proven to be an above average coach.  Same with Lane Kiffin.  Nathan Hackett's dad was never an HC.

 

Tomlin is a tough one to use.  He was a coordinator before 30, actually so was Tony I think?  Tomlin's kids were born in 2000 and 2022 and I"m not even sure if they played football.  Mike was the HC of a pretty legendary franchise at age 33. Tony had ten kids one of them passed away but not sure if they wanted to coach either.

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